You're forgetting Romans9
which you supposedly recently read. Specifically Romans9:11. Here's another fish: http://inthebeginning.net/cgi-bin/En...Search=Romans9
When you begin to ask, "What kind of God...?", then your mind should be instantiating the class "God" which your mind's constructor is assigning certain attributes to begin to fathom how different by "several orders of magnitude" this God object must be from a human object or any human class. If you have enough brain cells or available RAM to use for this process, a flag MUST be triggered that brings to your attention the fact that you must be quite insignificant in comparison to this God object. In fact, your infinityHandler() should spawn to protect you from that which you cannot compute/measure/comprehend, just before you realize, Who am I, to question God?.
You should learn that from Romans9, but Job and Job38 say it best in my opinion.
http://inthebeginning.net/cgi-bin/En...ToSearch=Job38
You will begin to understand when the program you write turns around and asks you, "Why have you made me thus?". Recall will and free will before you attempt a reply to that one.
kovan
How is that a very good point if you believe in a god? We all know that you are really an atheist.
Quote from Sid Meiers Alhpa Centauri
Some would ask why a perfect God would create a universe that is filled with so much that is evil, but they have missed the greater conunudrum. Why would a perfect God create a universe at all?
Sister Miriam Godwinson
Your use of "convenient" and its derivatives
is always out of context. I get a kick out of you using the term though ;)
Consider the ant that is unaware that an intelligence is guiding the boot that is about to crush him. The ant raises its "fist" in defiance asking, "How dare that boot attempt to occupy the same space at the same time as I?" What kind of boot would do such a thing?
Try to grasp the relation of the boot to the ant. From the ant's point of view, "if it had enough RAM and processor power" it should first perceive its insignificance in this great universe.
That the intelligence behind the boot instead demonstrates compassion to the insignificant ant; offers it eternal life and the title, "heir", and unfathomable significance in eternity is not something initiated or deserved by the ant.
There is an order of events (and a general order anyway) that you are conveniently missing (or perhaps you truly don't know; so that is why I post).
There is evidence for randomness.
Gen-x Some of the things you say are interesting. For example.
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I listened to your arguments about the "randomness" of the universe and replied with evidence showing it is NOT random
In conjunction with various posts claiming that the universe is deterministic the above would lead one to believe that you think the universe is provably deterministic. Then you say the following.
Quote:
I have NEVER EVER said that a random universe was NOT possible (if you bothered reading you would have even seen me postulate where randomness might occur)...
The above seems to suggest that you do not have a lot of faith in your own "evidence."
Quote:
Oh I love this... YOUR evidence is right and mine is wrong. You don't present evidence either... you simply point the finger at something saying "THERE IT IS!" and I refute it by explaining what you are pointing at.
I never said my evidence is right and yours is wrong. I said that I presented evidence and you did not. I still claim that you have presented no evidence, while I have mentioned radioactive decay as a process which follows statistical laws, and is therefore evidence of a random process. I did more than point my finger at radioactive decay and say there it is. Furthermore, you never explained radioactive decay.
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All I am saying is that there are only 4 forces in the universe... scientists have proved this. Where in this equation does randomness occur? You cannot show me randomness, you cannot say where it comes from or what causes it... you merely point at something that does not have a pattern and say... "It MUST be random".
If I knew enough to be able to describe in detail why the experts consider the 3 Quantum forces to result in random behavior, you would not understand (The 4th force, gravity, is considered deterministic). When I mentioned radioactive decay as a statistical (Id est: random) process, it amounted to more than pointing at something which does not have a pattern and saying it must be random. It is a process which behaves in a manner consistent with statistical mathematics rather than deterministic math. Contrary to your claim, I can show you randomness (I did exactly that when I mentioned radioactive decay). I suspect that it might be in the very nature of a random process that it is impossible to say "where it comes from or what causes it." On this issue, I do not know enough to even begin to describe where it comes from or what causes it. By the way, can you tell me how the four forces lead to a deterministic universe? I doubt it, because they do not.
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And perhaps I have a greater understanding of modern physics and can see something you are unable to?
I strongly suspect that my knowledge of modern physics is a lot better than yours, but am willing to admit that my knowledge is no where near the expert level. However, I did post a quote for you and Sam in which a real expert in the field stated that modern physics considers the universe
to be governed by statistical laws, not deterministic ones. I am sure your understanding of modern physics pales in comparison to the real experts, who happen to disagree with your classical views.
I guess my answer cut you too deep
From man's point of view, he should realize that he is insignificant in comparison to God.
From God's point of view, He makes us significant.
It is not man's place to say, "Why have you made me thus?". And you didn't read the verses even though I gave you specific "fish". I know I can't expect you to look it up (but I gave you what you asked for).
Don't worry, there are some that will remain insignificant (from a certain point of view), but even "vessels of destruction" have their significance.
Alot of people (even so-called Christians) fear this possibility of fact.
There are missing pieces..
GenX,
quote:
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Do you understand what rational logic is? Its where you lay out all the facts and then see if they contradict each other. I layed them out and showed that not ALL of them could be true which proves at least one of them is invalid.
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Of course I do! I'm a programmer, and a pretty good one at that. :) I also understand that the logic of man is what gets us in trouble. For example, you laid out a theorum (sp?) attempting to disprove that God can create us as creatures of free will and yet know what we will do before we do it. Well, logically, of course it sounds foolish. And what about this.. a God who is omnicient, omnipresent and omnipotent? How crazy! Oh, and I forgot things like how stupid it sounds to give up 10% of your hard earned cash to give to others or to "God" without expecting anything in return, devoting time to someone or something which you cannot see, hear, taste or touch, .. how utterly ridiculous this may sound! OH! How about losing your very life because of a simple belief? HA!!
So logically, I can see how you do not understand all this, and all the things Christians say or do. Heck, in your shoes, I would think this was all drivel and foolery myself.
But I know this: John 14:17
.. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you.
More.. Luke 6:22
Blessed are you when men hate you, when they exclude you and insult you and reject your name as evil, because of the Son of Man.
Still more... 1 Thessalonians 4:8
Therefore, he who rejects this instruction does not reject man but God, who gives you his Holy Spirit.
So there is this definite dividing line between us, not in logic, but in understanding Jesus, which He himself imparts to those who call out to him with a sincere and contrite heart.
It's the man not serving God who thinks he should be able to understand God. I mean, how else have intelligent people throughout the ages - for example, someone like Sir Isaac Newton, who was a devout Christian (and you can read about this in any biography of him) - be able to make heads or tails out of a statment by Jesus like this in Matthew 10:39: "Whoever finds his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life for my sake will find it."
I submit to you that the answer is only by the drawing of a supreme and powerful God.
This one issue is at the root of all other arguments between those who believe in God and those who don't. I noticed that what we were discussing was headed toward one of those long winded discussions where ideas can be passed back and forth, stated and re-stated for a long time. And what do they prove? That you still reject God, and that I still serve God, even in the face of man's logic.
Respectfully,
KFayal
Arguing for arguments sake.
I have reviewed almost all of your posts on this site, and anything other than in the programming forums - there are a few exceptions - it appears that you find it intellectually stimulating to begin an idea for discourse and see if you can be the last one to post. And I can also accept your assessment of me with joy, DUE to my faith.
Of course I don't relate intelligence to faith. My point was that even intelligent people can be smitten with faith. As I said, I have been reading your posts to become more familiar with you, and you somehow equate "blindness" (a term you used) with idiocy, stupidity or weakness. I think that if my assessment is accurate concerning this that it is wrong as evidenced by many examples of people - who were and are far more intelligent than myself and you - throughout history who had faith in God.
Were those people idiots, stupid, wrong or inferior in any way? I really hope you answer this question honestly.
Your question about the Bible: I do not know where the Bible was in the 5th, 12th or 17th century. Nor do I really care! I have the Spirit within me, which tells me in a way that cannot be explained, that it is all 100% true as with thousands of other people before me, and thousands of other people will after me.
Neither do I concern myself about your definition of open-mindedness. This is not an attribute that I see in Jesus Christ. I'm not trying to fit any mold that you wish for me to fit, only that which Christ is leading me to.
In closing, I would like to say that if you could show me that God doesn't exist, I would gladly give up my life as a Christian. Since you know this is impossible, it has no bearing on who has more of an open mind.
With respect,
KFayal
Creation points to a creator
An ameoba will always be an ameoba.
Where did the ameoba begin?
A man will always be a man.
Where did man begin?
I look at my own hand and think, "This cannot have been a chance event." No, there exists a specific design. A design implies a designer. Creation implies a creation.
I didn't attend the "creation of man", so I can only go by the amazing and complex design of living things and match it to what I read in the Bible to base my beliefs on. And since no one else living today was at the event either, there is no way to disprove my belief that God exists and that he created man. How can you prove or disprove the existence of something you can't measure in any way?
With respect,
KFayal