Or maybe you all secretly thought they deserved it? :p
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Or maybe you all secretly thought they deserved it? :p
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No. I have been thinking about it a lot.
My first reaction was: I am not surprised.
But then I thought: Where are the Indians? They were supposed to guard these jails.
Seriously, this is very bad, and no amount of reminding the world that others have done worse is going to make it right.
As for the military, the first thing to do is bring the UCMJ down hard on the stupid guards. Maximum sentences and dishonorable discharges. Second, is do the same to their chain of command as far up as you can go. Third is to eliminate the conceite (sp?) in the intelligence groups (we picked up some bad habits from the Nazis and Japanese after the war). Fourth is change the balance of divisions back to pre-Clinton days -- way more regular divisions than reserve/guard.
As for the government, I don't think much will change it's approach unless they think it will affect the elections in November. I really don't think that they have a grip on the ways the rest of the world looks at us or how that might ultimately affect us. If those outside the USofA think that John Kerry does, you are mistaken. The world is in for a boatload of crap as long as the president's office and both houses are occupied by people who call themselves Democrats or Republicans.
Oh, now I've done it. The NSA or FBI knows what I said. If you don't hear from me again...
Actually I was just now going to make a post about it then seen yours.
I support pulling out of IRAQ at this very moment. Quite honestly the damage that has been done from these stupid soldiers is not going to be repaired in any shape form or fashion in Iraq. This will give our enemies across the world a new campain for recruitment. This makes this war one of the largest failures in USA history.
What those soldiers did was a disgrace and illegal by our laws. I think they should be punished by the full extent of our law. I also think that the defense secretary should resign immediately. All commanders who knew of this and did nothing should share the same fate as the soldiers. What they did will cost lives and everyone who was involved should be punished as much as the law allows.
On another note:
I think Kerry will do fine as President. I do feel sorry for whoever takes office after bush though, they will have a lot of burdens to carry. The main one I'm wanting to see took care of is outsourcing.
I figured someone like honeybee would be the first to post about it anyway. I wasn't sure if it was wrong or not, I was waiting for honeybee to decide.
Ai tol' yah so!
Been avoiding saying that.
Every action has a logical consequence. Maybe more than one, but nevertheless logical.
Check out my posts here before the invasion and over at Galah (if they are still around). Violence breeds violence which begets decadence which ends up in depravity resulting in failure.
*cough*galah is mangojacks now*cough*
Anyway, it'll be interesting how the powers that be will handle this fallout. No doubt some dirt will stick around until november.
Didn't know that! 'll be there soon.Quote:
Originally posted by Wally Pipp
*cough*galah is mangojacks now*cough*....
It appears everyone was waiting for someone else to start a thread.
If this is what they do on camera (with apparently worse to come) what were they doing off camera?
As for their defence "We were just following orders" where have we heard that before.
Two wrongs don't make a right. It's not because of 9/11 and the former regime did it that all bets are off and all is excusable.
Certainly not when you're trying your best to convince everyone you're there for the good cause. A daily Good News Show isn't going to cut it this time ... :rolleyes:
I didn't, I openly thought they did.Quote:
Originally posted by honeybee
Or maybe you all secretly thought they deserved it?
Do you have anything specific, something that he did, in mind?Quote:
Originally posted by Maven
I also think that the defense secretary should resign immediately.
I Keep hearing it reported that people are saying this, but I have yet to hear what they think he did wrong in relation to this Prisoner abuse situation.
:wave:
-Lou
He did nothing. that is what he did wrong. they have known about the torture and abuse for over a year! thanks to Red Cross reports. They only started prosecuting the lowest level, part time soldiers after an American T.V. show aired them.Quote:
Originally posted by Something Else
Do you have anything specific, something that he did, in mind?
I Keep hearing it reported that people are saying this, but I have yet to hear what they think he did wrong in relation to this Prisoner abuse situation.
:wave:
-Lou
Humans are the lowest form of life on this planet and we should all be destroyed post haste.
:afrog:
VB's resident Poet Laureate has already penned a few verses in regards to this a few threads below.;)Quote:
Originally posted by honeybee
Re: No One Speaking About Iraqi Prisoner Abuse??
Who ? Ian ?
Was waiting to hear someone blame it on Bush and for honeybee tell us about arrogant Americans again.
This is nothing new. Every war and every army in the world has had the problems with out of control soldiers breaking international laws and conventions.
For example, I can't remember the dates of this, but if you surrendered to Russians, you were paraded down the street like a hero. Then executed. :o
And that makes it alright then ?
Personally, I think it is despicable.
I think the soldiers and officers involved should be court martialed.
This is a shot in the foot for the US, in its attempts to create some type of relationship with the muslim world.
It was inhumane, indecent and a clear violation of their civil rights and the Geneva convention.
I personally think the soldiers should be made examples of, just to demonstrate to the american public and the world in general, that this type of behavior will not be tolerated. Whether the behavior be from an E-1 Private or a Commanding Officer.
I didnt say it was alright did I? Just trying to make a point for those people that are going to try blowing some smokes up our a%& with anti-US sentiment.Quote:
Originally posted by Wally Pipp
And that makes it alright then ?
Its all Bulls*** anyway. How can laws be involved in war? The two dont go together, you can bomb a building and kill civilians but you cant torture people.
Perhaps we should have a big dueling ring with one on one battles between IRAQ and American soldiers.
haha, as I read in an article, america's own extremist suicide is the digital camera!
If you are serious then I pity you.Quote:
Originally posted by davebat
Its all Bulls*** anyway. How can laws be involved in war? The two dont go together, you can bomb a building and kill civilians but you cant torture people.
Where does anti-US sentiment fit in ? :confused:Quote:
Originally posted by Cander
I didnt say it was alright did I? Just trying to make a point for those people that are going to try blowing some smokes up our a%& with anti-US sentiment.
There were pictures, there were reports, there were admissions, there were even unexpected apologies.
The whole thing is not done by any standard and should be dealt with forthwith. The image damage is enormous and it's going to take some convincing that you really are there to help the Iraqis.
Pre-empting with "anti-US sentiment" statements is, dare I say it, symptomatic of the times.
Is it suddenly anti-US to say this shouldn't happen in any war ? Good grief man ...
No. You are not getting what I am saying.
Everytime something new pops up in the news about what is going on in Iraq, I have to read about how arrogant Americans are and as if its all of America that was to blame while acting high and mighty as if they are from the Garden of Eden. Then the usual uninformed comments from people who's knowledge of history spans 1 presidential term. Its a bunch of bulls***! It was some Soldiers that are to blame, not Americans, not Bush! Get it?
Oh I get it alright ...
And you wonder why there are "arrogant US" comments ? Look no further, analyze your own post and learn for a change.
Good thing we have you to point out the rights and wrongs eh. Where would we be without you ? Probably in the same spot only a lot happier ...
I say we spend some of that reconstruction money building new prisons and sell the videos on the internet. May even turn a profit from this mess.
There was nothing arrogant about my statement. I dont pretend to be superior to anybody. I dont wear blinders to the rest of the world and its history. I don't close my eyes to all sides of the story focusing only on the side the furthers my opinion.
Good onya then.
:thumb:
But anyway. Yes what happened is a tragedy. You would think that after what has happened in previous wars, the people in charge of these soldiers would provide more safe guards to prevent this.
Is there anything that CAN be done?
mmhmmmQuote:
Originally posted by Cander
:thumb:
But anyway. Yes what happened is a tragedy. You would think that after what has happened in previous wars, the people in charge of these soldiers would provide more safe guards to prevent this.
Is there anything that CAN be done?
Take no prisoners, that'll solve it.
Amen, people who goa round trying to put down bush really need to get a life, no matter if it was right or wrong to go into iraq its done!!Quote:
Originally posted by Cander
Was waiting to hear someone blame it on Bush and for honeybee tell us about arrogant Americans again.
This is nothing new. Every war and every army in the world has had the problems with out of control soldiers breaking international laws and conventions.
For example, I can't remember the dates of this, but if you surrendered to Russians, you were paraded down the street like a hero. Then executed. :o
and as for this comment posted earlyer on,
thats the most stupid thing anyone could say because what would happen when the allies leave..... yep another regime would step in blow up london and we will be abck to square one!Quote:
posted by Maven
I support pulling out of IRAQ at this very moment.
BAH!
But then you have the problem of people who surrender being executed.
It isnt anymore humane.
build some hiltons, place the prisioners inside, and take away those female soldiers, they are nasty!!
Quote:
Originally posted by Wally Pipp
Oh I get it alright ...
And you wonder why there are "arrogant US" comments ? Look no further, analyze your own post and learn for a change.
Good thing we have you to point out the rights and wrongs eh. Where would we be without you ? Probably in the same spot only a lot happier ...
omg you people just get worse..
See ? You don't even know me, you don't even know my POV and worst of all, you just assume that whatever my views are they must be against yours and in turn against the US.
If you bothered to read what I posted then you'd know I'm asking what your current government will do with these cases, that two wrongs don't make a right. I don't make excuses, I don't intend to smear your glorious leader. In fact, I don't even care for your learder as he sure as hell isn't mine.
I reacted to the fact that someone will inevitably try to pre-empt any criticism as anti-US just as someone will inevitably put the blame on Bush and co. For the record and see above, that isn't me. I'm asking valid questions.
I neither have the time nor the desire to continue debating this jingoistic nonsense so please stick to the topic at hand and stick your assumptions where the sun doesn't shine. Can't be that hard, can it ?
Perhaps We could discuss:
If one were to interragate POW's, and certainly torture is out of the question, what methods would you use to "break" them?
Apparently, having them strip naked and build human pyramids is inhumane, as is puting leashes on them and being led around by ugly female dominatrixes in army boots, {Hmmm, where did they come up with these? Standard Army Ranger Training Experiences? College Frat initiations? Hustler Humor?}.
But They also were forced into sleep deprivation. Propably they were put on restricted meals, {Research says lowering calorie consumption is healthy, so is it abuse?}. Should this be allowed?
What other non-torture methods would you allow/or/say is inhumane? Obviously All Interigation is inhumane, right down to what is done to criminal suspects in every country, chaining them to tables or chairs via handcuffs, verbally being shouted at, harrased, being told what'll happen to them if they don't cooperate, certainly "gentle" shoves, et al.
Should Anyone be Interigated ever?
:wave:
-Lou
You are serious, right?Quote:
Originally posted by Pino
..... yep another regime would step in blow up london and we will be abck to square one!
BAH!
No hope! Absolutely none whatsoever!
You have actually bought the Iraq-Saddam Huessein-11/9/2001-Al Qaeda-Islamic Fundementalism crap.
God save you and me from you!
I do believe that in every war, both sides commit illegal actions against POW. But, considering the background of THIS particular war, the repercutions will be huge, there are more pics out there that haven't been revealed and it will only affect the present administration....
by the way, anyone remembers that german movie about an experiment with prisoners and guards....? and, I do remember a link about a REAL experiment that lasted only a couple of days because the guards started to violently act against the prisoners, I will look for that link and post it here..
I wasnt talking about ANY criticism = anti-US. Im talking very direct anti US/US government statements that HAVE been made often before, here and on other forums.
Quite frankly tired of reading on forums about how Americans are fat, lazy, stupid, and arrogant. :rolleyes:
Well I would have to argue that there is a difference between sleep deprevation/verbal abuse/etc versus hooking someone's testicle to electricity.Quote:
Originally posted by NotLKH
Perhaps We could discuss:
If one were to interragate POW's, and certainly torture is out of the question, what methods would you use to "break" them?
Apparently, having them strip naked and build human pyramids is inhumane, as is puting leashes on them and being led around by ugly female dominatrixes in army boots, {Hmmm, where did they come up with these? Standard Army Ranger Training Experiences? College Frat initiations? Hustler Humor?}.
But They also were forced into sleep deprivation. Propably they were put on restricted meals, {Research says lowering calorie consumption is healthy, so is it abuse?}. Should this be allowed?
What other non-torture methods would you allow/or/say is inhumane? Obviously All Interigation is inhumane, right down to what is done to criminal suspects in every country, chaining them to tables or chairs via handcuffs, verbally being shouted at, harrased, being told what'll happen to them if they don't cooperate, certainly "gentle" shoves, et al.
Should Anyone be Interigated ever?
:wave:
-Lou
http://www.prisonexp.org/Quote:
Originally posted by Xcoder
I do remember a link about a REAL experiment that lasted only a couple of days because the guards started to violently act against the prisoners, I will look for that link and post it here..
I think it's a normal human tendency to get involved in such acts. Generals in Vietnam would cut off ears of the captured prisoners and wear them stringed up as a necklace.
A group of people in power will always want to assert this fact to the powerless. So, I feel that it's basically a psychological issue, not a national one.
I once posted a link to the Stanford Prison Experiment. That should give a good insight into this aspect of power. (www.prisonexp.org)
Ah, well, I was writing while you posted that. :pQuote:
Ah yeah. I forgot about that experiment.
I also read some of the guards are private contractors (often with little experience of the task at hand).
How does this work ? Like any other govt contractor agreement ? Is it only a "guard until further notice" job or were they hired to "extract information" as well ?
This shows exactly how stupid human beings are. "OOOOOoHHHHH your going to loose the peoples confidence in Iraq" because 6 soldiers humiliated (not tourtured) a few Iraqi prisoners. HOLY SHEIT PEOPLE we just dropped 80 billion dollars worth of bombs on them. Like they have any confidence in us to begin with. More goddam political BS served up right before election time by a liberal TV show 60 min.
unfookingingbelievable.
Well, let me state up front that I am American, and am disgusted by this regime. I don't think that anybody who has read my posts would expect me to feel otherwise. If this brings down Bush, that's better for my fish.
However, having said that, consider torture. There was an earlier thread about an officer who used force to coerce somebody into giving information that may have saved his troops from a suicide bomb. Is this torture? Technically, yes. Is it illegal? I don't know, but it certainly is disturbing. Is it wrong? Now, that gets difficult. Should he be allowed to denigrate one person to save several others? People in this forum held both views. I was unhappy with his conduct, but I could certainly understand it.
So, in some circumstances, torture seems like an acceptable excess to most everybody. For some, the circumstances are much lower than for others, but there are circumstances where it would be acceptable to anybody.
Is there a way that we can determine whether or not torture is acceptable? Yes, there is. The penalty for using torture should be clever, but not unbearable. It should be unavoidable. If you use torture, this will happen to you, no trial, no appeals, no recourse, however, the cost is not ruinous, nor financial. This turns torture into a one-use card. If the situation is sufficiently grave that the consequences are worth removing the humanity of the target, then the person who determines it to be so, should forfeit as much. They can make the decision up front.
That concept is incomplete, but I haven't had time to flesh it out. Take the humanity from another person if you have to, but accept a high cost as a consequence.
I see Rumsfeld 'taking full responsibility'. But nothing has happened to him, and nothing will happen to him. Those are pretty words, but there is no action. Now that the heirarchy sees that an axe will fall, they are scrambling to ensure that the axe only falls as far down the chain as possible. Where's the responsibility? Solemn words, but no change. If he's not going to be held responsible, why is he saying that he is responsible?
Oh yeah, there is also this little bit about the conservatives trying to make it out to be a very isolated incident. Some only talk about alleged abuse (with pictures, a pretty compelling allegation), some talk about just a few low-level soldiers, one Georgian senator actually went on to say "Look what happened to us on 9/11, so we suffered more than them!" That's a particularly vile statement, since Iraq had no connection to 9/11, so what he is saying is that we can abuse Iraquis because somebody in that half of the world hurt us.
Unfortunately, the reports (by that general, whoes name I couldn't even begin to spell) show widespread abuse in Iraq and Afghanistan. This problem is bigger than a few bad apples.
because its politically correct. its more politics BS.
He is the defense secretary, need I say more? A proper defense secretary wouldn't have allowed this to grow as large as it has. When he first got news of it, he should have instantly took action.Quote:
Originally posted by Something Else
Do you have anything specific, something that he did, in mind?
I Keep hearing it reported that people are saying this, but I have yet to hear what they think he did wrong in relation to this Prisoner abuse situation.
:wave:
-Lou
Well yes and no. I can understand this sort of thing happening in wars like WW2 and have a higher tolerence level for it. So many of your friends died in that war, that you hated the ememy in a whole new way. You will see this happening in that kind of war (Bad ones). It's still wrong, but like I say I have a higher tolerence level for it during bad wars.Quote:
Originally posted by Cander
Was waiting to hear someone blame it on Bush and for honeybee tell us about arrogant Americans again.
This is nothing new. Every war and every army in the world has had the problems with out of control soldiers breaking international laws and conventions.
For example, I can't remember the dates of this, but if you surrendered to Russians, you were paraded down the street like a hero. Then executed. :o
Truth be known, there is no rules in war. Rules of war are always mentioned by the winner of the war even though they probably broken many themselves.Quote:
Originally posted by davebat
Its all Bulls*** anyway. How can laws be involved in war? The two dont go together, you can bomb a building and kill civilians but you cant torture people.
Perhaps we should have a big dueling ring with one on one battles between IRAQ and American soldiers.
At this point the image of what we are doing there is completely destroyed.Quote:
Originally posted by Pino
Amen, people who goa round trying to put down bush really need to get a life, no matter if it was right or wrong to go into iraq its done!!
and as for this comment posted earlyer on,
thats the most stupid thing anyone could say because what would happen when the allies leave..... yep another regime would step in blow up london and we will be abck to square one!
BAH!
Much as I think Bush is a numpty for going into this mess, I don't think he can be held accountable for the actions of his individual troops. I think that you will find that most real soldiers find these sort of actions dispicable and wouldn't put up with them, unfortunately if you throw 250,000 people into a country, some of them are going to turn out to be undisciplined thugs/bullies. I suspect these are what we are seeing.
It might be Rumsfelds fault for not doing anything about it (I don't know), but I don't think that Bush can be held accountable for this. I say: Send the guilty soldiers to prison, replace the US soldier guards with hired Iraqi guards at the prisons, stop the torturing and try to find some way out of this mess.
As for Lou's question about interrgoation. It is difficult to know where to draw the line and to argue that the ends justify the means, however if we put ourselves up on a pedestal and proclaim that we are fair countries (which we do), we cannot afford to be doing this sort of stuff. Sure, it may be that one torture garners us information about a suicide bombing that saves 10 lives, but on the flip-side, how many people will die now because of the upsurge in resistance recruiting in Iraq and terrorist recruiting for Al-Quieda? If you were one of those people who were tortured/humiliated and you finally get released. What are you going to do? Sit back and take it? Despite the fact that I know it is wrong, I'd probably find myself a gun and go kill one or more of the *****ers who did this to me..... Simply put, it was not a worthwhile exercise.
Of course, the problem is that if any of the accused soldiers are innocent, then letting them go free will be instantly be seen by the Muslim world as the US not persuing justice. Yet, someone must be seen to be punished..... I suspect only a few individuals who's guilt is assured will actually be tried, and in fairness, that's possibly the only smart way out...
True. Look at Nuremburg(sp?) trials. Im sure there were plenty of war crimes committed by Allied troops as well.Quote:
Originally posted by Maven
Truth be known, there is no rules in war. Rules of war are always mentioned by the winner of the war even though they probably broken many themselves.
just to assure this isnt a rare behavior of the troops....check this info on the UN/NATO troops in kosovo....Im guessing mostly british, american and european troops are involved here...
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3686173.stm
Why, the point I was trying to make was that war is a crime anyway so cannot have laws attached to it. Why is it OK to shoot an IRAQ dude in a gun battle but not after he has been captured?Quote:
Originally posted by crptcblade
If you are serious then I pity you.
There is no honour in war whatsoever.
Not in modern warfare anyway. Way back in the day, when you and your enemy had to be within feet of each to do battle, then there was hono(u)r. When it was truely a case of "may the best man win."Quote:
Originally posted by davebat
There is no honour in war whatsoever.
There is no honor in sitting miles away and hitting a button, or unleashing nerve agents, or anything with the way today's wars are fought. But I guess that's what they call progress.
I do, though, see a huge difference between shooting someone out in open battle, where your life is possibly in immediate danger (maybe not, but possibly), and shooting someone that is shackled to a chair in a holding cell.
Would you be proud to sit around trading war stories, and say that you killed an unarmed man, that was chained up like a dog? It's murder either way you look at it, don't get me wrong...
OMG Dave we actually agree on something . . .Quote:
There is no honour in war whatsoever
No i wouldnt, then again i wouldnt be proud to say that i had killed a man on an open battlefield.Quote:
Originally posted by crptcblade
Would you be proud to sit around trading war stories, and say that you killed an unarmed man, that was chained up like a dog? It's murder either way you look at it, don't get me wrong...
Dead is dead, once your dead it dont matter if your a prisoner or killed in a shoot out.
The honourable thing to do would be al troops to be withdrawn from Iraq, an apology and reperations given to all victims and for all weapons of mass destruction to be destroyed by all owning countries.