Pretty Powerful article from Newsweek.Quote:
Whatever anyone thinks about the justness of the war in Iraq, it's a sad development for democracy—and a signal to everyone that terrorism not only works, it can even win.
Setting A Bad Example
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Pretty Powerful article from Newsweek.Quote:
Whatever anyone thinks about the justness of the war in Iraq, it's a sad development for democracy—and a signal to everyone that terrorism not only works, it can even win.
Setting A Bad Example
Prime Minister-elected Rodriguez Zapatero intended to withdraw from Iraq before 11-M.
So under your view, its ok to be the target of terrorists just to prove how machos we all are?
I know this has a lot of background...so lets stick to the current topic and not go deep with Iraq as the threads in Worldevents have.
Edit: maybe this sounds simplistic, but under the view of a regular spaniard they stuck with US -> they got flamed...obviously people reacted to this
It may apply the same for the US, they messed with middle-east -> they got flamed...hopefully people will react to this in november
I know its a bit harsh sorry if I hurt someone:blush:
I wish everyone would do what the US is doing...
You bomb us, we are going after you. Period... no buts, no ifs, just a promise. If everyone had that attitude, we would triump over the terrorists in my opinion.
Spain should be mad at the terrorists, not the government. If I were a person in Spain, I would be shouting loud for the government to get tougher on terrorists, not give into them.
Of course, I am an American with American ideals. I honestly don't understand other cultures and the rational behind their actions. Who knows, my/our way could be the wrong one, and theirs is the right one.... only time will tell.
Might is right, and I don't think it'll ever have to come to thinking that it's the "wrong" way. Passiveness is some sort of a Martin Luther King/ Gandhi philosophy instilled into us because it seems "right", but it's not necessarily the best way to go about things.Quote:
Originally posted by hellswraith
Who knows, my/our way could be the wrong one, and theirs is the right one.... only time will tell.
Do unto others as they do unto you.
Or even better, do unto others before they do unto you.
If that happened, in a few years we will be dodging cruise missiles on our way to work.:rolleyes:Quote:
Originally posted by hellswraith
You bomb us, we are going after you. Period... no buts, no ifs, just a promise. If everyone had that attitude, we would triump over the terrorists in my opinion.
I think fighting the terrorist works to a degree but can't be the long term answer.
First up the Spainish have been dealing with terrorists for a long time a lot longer than Americas war on terrorism. Hell they were dealing with ETA while Irish-Americans were funding the IRA, and their government were funding Bin Laden.
And as has been pointed out before in this thread and others 90% of the population opposed the war in Iraq, which has nothing to do with terrorism, the socialist party had the withdrawl of troops as part of their campaign prior to any bombings.
If the government don't do what the people want then they are pushed out.
This is democracy in action. Isn't this what your fighting for?
Fully agree with that statement. I just hope that the people were right in what they wanted. I FULLY support democracy, even if it works the opposite from the way I want it to.Quote:
If the government don't do what the people want then they are pushed out.
This is democracy in action. Isn't this what your fighting for?
Ohh no, not Newsweek too!....:eek:Quote:
Originally posted by Memnoch1207
Pretty Powerful article from Newsweek.
I am surprised to see this opinion, and the assertion that you are an American with American ideals. I think you should also campaign for completely scrapping gun control laws, promote use of guns by kids to protect themselves in school fights and for ordinary people to use in pub fights and virtually scrap all the laws in your lawbooks, the rights in your constitution and only stick to the basic natural law, the might is right.Quote:
Originally posted by hellswraith
I wish everyone would do what the US is doing...
You bomb us, we are going after you. Period... no buts, no ifs, just a promise. If everyone had that attitude, we would triump over the terrorists in my opinion.
Spain should be mad at the terrorists, not the government. If I were a person in Spain, I would be shouting loud for the government to get tougher on terrorists, not give into them.
Of course, I am an American with American ideals. I honestly don't understand other cultures and the rational behind their actions. Who knows, my/our way could be the wrong one, and theirs is the right one.... only time will tell.
Frankly speaking I don't know much about the constitution of the US, but I guess it awards many freedoms to a citizen, which are not available to citizens of many other countries. Freedom of expression is one such right to the people. Expression could be through speech or through action. And even the terrorist actions are an expression of disagreement with the policies of the governments. Instead of analyzing the root cause of these actions, if you simply decide to follow an eye for an eye policy, you will soon be in the land of the blind.
I think the world needs some patience at this point of time. More appropriately people who are willing to say "If you slap me, I shall ask you why and try to resolve your problem with mutual discussion", which is what every law-abiding citizen / country must be doing anyways.
.
So maybe we should negotiate with the terrorists and prove that terrorist type actions really do work. F-ing brilliant.Quote:
Originally posted by honeybee
I think the world needs some patience at this point of time. More appropriately people who are willing to say "If you slap me, I shall ask you why and try to resolve your problem with mutual discussion", which is what every law-abiding citizen / country must be doing anyways.
F-cking short sighted and thoughless, I would say :)Quote:
Originally posted by Shawn N
So maybe we should negotiate with the terrorists and prove that terrorist type actions really do work. F-ing brilliant.
.
Couldn't be put better.Quote:
Originally posted by DeadEyes
First up the Spainish have been dealing with terrorists for a long time a lot longer than Americas war on terrorism. Hell they were dealing with ETA while Irish-Americans were funding the IRA, and their government were funding Bin Laden.
And as has been pointed out before in this thread and others 90% of the population opposed the war in Iraq, which has nothing to do with terrorism, the socialist party had the withdrawl of troops as part of their campaign prior to any bombings.
If the government don't do what the people want then they are pushed out.
This is democracy in action. Isn't this what your fighting for?
And just how effective is warfare against Guerilla forces?Quote:
Originally posted by Shawn N
So maybe we should negotiate with the terrorists and prove that terrorist type actions really do work. F-ing brilliant.
First off, who cares who is running Spain unless your from Spain? Whatever their reason was for changing leadership is their business, not ours. That is why they have a democracy. It's their right, it's their country, and they made a decision. As far as punking out on the war on terror, AFAIK they are not backing down, right or wrong they just don't see Iraq as a terror threat. Spain has arrested some heavy hitters in worldwide terror organizations and is still doing it's part in Afhanastan. I haven't heard a peep of objection from any one in spain, or europe for that matter against taking the fight to terrorists, as long as you can prove that it is actually terrorists that are on the recieving end.
On another not, of course the terrorist organizations are going to spin this as a victory for themselvs. Newsweek helping them do this is a bunch of sheit.
The United states does not Give Freedoms to its citizens.
Rather it limits the US From taking away our supposedly inherent freedoms.
Just an FYI.
:wave:
fat lot of good thats been lately...
I disagree with visualAd. Might -- with the understanding that if they change their ways, we will stop -- is the only way to deal successfully with terror. If you look at the British history, you see some effective ways of dealing with terror. I think it went something like this: In India, kill an Englishman, they machine gun a town. In South Africa, bomb a train, they put a carload of Boers at the front. However, these methods only work well when the people you are dealing with actually value lives -- at least their own people's. I think the best you can do with people like the sad-ass lot in the middle east who don't care if they die is to: have some balls, keep the threat of response visible, don't have any commerce with them that you don't have to, and don't let them come to our countries to learn anything. Otherwise, they think that you don't have the stomach to fight, they dare to act in bigger ways, they have the money to do it, and they have the knowledge to do it better. I have had a number of friends and acquaintances over the years from those countries, and I think that the folks who hate us hate us because of what we are, not what we do. Therefore, no talking to them is going to work. The best we can do is defend ourselves.
Jimbo.
Couldn't be put better, as Gaffer said, and that applies to most other nations in the world. The UK has got the IRA, Spain has got the ETA, India has got the J&K militancy. Funnily deep and honest investigations would probably reveal America's role in fostering most of these terrorist organizations under one guise or the other.Quote:
Originally posted by DeadEyes
First up the Spainish have been dealing with terrorists for a long time a lot longer than Americas war on terrorism. Hell they were dealing with ETA while Irish-Americans were funding the IRA, and their government were funding Bin Laden.
And as has been pointed out before in this thread and others 90% of the population opposed the war in Iraq, which has nothing to do with terrorism, the socialist party had the withdrawl of troops as part of their campaign prior to any bombings.
If the government don't do what the people want then they are pushed out.
This is democracy in action. Isn't this what your fighting for?
.
And what facts do you have to back up this accusation?Quote:
Originally posted by honeybee
Funnily deep and honest investigations would probably reveal America's role in fostering most of these terrorist organizations under one guise or the other.
Or is this just your "I hate america" opinion?
You make me laugh :DQuote:
Originally posted by HardCode
You sir are Anti-American scum and I hope the worst for you and your kind. What piece of **** third world rat hole are you from?
How about the US awarding Pakistan that status recently (something of an ally outside of NATO) which will allow the US to supply even more military aid and arms to Pakistan? What's the reason for it? The supposed cooperation in hunting for Al Qaeda, when Pakistan itself harboured Al Qaeda? Did Mr. Powell and Bush forget that Pakistan government was one of the three in the world which officially recognized the Taliban rule in Afghanistan? Of course the war on terror has changed everything :D
And the previous funding Pakistan received from the US, much of which went to the ISI and helped a long way in funding training camps and arms for the militants who trained in Pakistan and then entered the J&K to fight with the Indian forces?
And the nuclear blackmarket run by Mr. Khan? And the pardon he received? And that it's an "internal matter" of the Pakistan government??
And the fact that Pakistan sold nuclear knowhow to N Korea in exchange for missiles?
F-ucking double standards and attempts at creating a political and military stronghold in the South Asia, I say.
Just like the US government has been turning a blind eye to the outrageous violence Israel is doing to the Palestinians, it has turned a blind eye to all the above acts of Pakistan. And has been actively helping these two governments so they are able to pose a major threat. Do you still believe your government didn't know all this was going on?
.
I think this suffices :Quote:
Originally posted by HardCode
You sir are Anti-American scum and I hope the worst for you and your kind. What piece of **** third world rat hole are you from?
QED. :thumb:Quote:
By me
of course the really funny thing is that you pretend to come here with your blinkered opinions full of xenophobic generalisations and arrogant assumptions and assume that everyone just goes along with you in your infinite wisdom.
Actually a change in the Pakistani government changed everything. That government with US encouragement is even trying to make peace with your country of India after 50+ years of fighting over Kashmir. Also please don’t forget it was China that gave Pakistan their missile and nuclear technology not the US, before you start to blame them for that as well.Quote:
How about the US awarding Pakistan that status recently (something of an ally outside of NATO) which will allow the US to supply even more military aid and arms to Pakistan? What's the reason for it? The supposed cooperation in hunting for Al Qaeda, when Pakistan itself harboured Al Qaeda? Did Mr. Powell and Bush forget that Pakistan government was one of the three in the world which officially recognized the Taliban rule in Afghanistan? Of course the war on terror has changed everything
You know you have 0 proof of that and you know it. If anything it has been China’s support of Pakistan that has been more than troublesome for India.Quote:
And the previous funding Pakistan received from the US, much of which went to the ISI and helped a long way in funding training camps and arms for the militants who trained in Pakistan and then entered the J&K to fight with the Indian forces?
The good thing is that has been shut down. Had it not been for the war on terror and the added resources going into stopping terrorism its likely Mr. Khan would still be in business. And what Pakistan does to its criminals is their business no?Quote:
And the nuclear blackmarket run by Mr. Khan? And the pardon he received? And that it's an "internal matter" of the Pakistan government??
The government of Pakistan has already denied that this was an official government action. So far there is no proof to otherwise suggest that this is nothing more than an opportunistic scientist cashing in on his knowledge.Quote:
And the fact that Pakistan sold nuclear knowhow to N Korea in exchange for missiles?
And who is attempting this? And how?Quote:
F-ucking double standards and attempts at creating a political and military stronghold in the South Asia, I say.
The US is chief architect for the Roadmap to peace in Israel and the setting up of an independent Palestinian state. The US is also behind the current peace overtures from Pakistan to India in the attempts the curb the long violence between your country and Pakistan. I honestly don’t know how you can sit there and blast the US when they are the country behind peace attempts in both situations.Quote:
Just like the US government has been turning a blind eye to the outrageous violence Israel is doing to the Palestinians, it has turned a blind eye to all the above acts of Pakistan. And has been actively helping these two governments so they are able to pose a major threat. Do you still believe your government didn't know all this was going on?
X
Honeybee is quick with the accusations and slow with any kinds of facts. Probably because they don’t exist I would imagine.Quote:
Originally posted by Memnoch1207
And what facts do you have to back up this accusation?
Or is this just your "I hate america" opinion?
X
He has been brainwashed into thinking the cause of all the worlds problems is the U.S.
Well, to bring you back to reality, I said Pakistan exchaned nuclear knowhow with North Korea. Did you read N Korea as US? Maybe you are already dreaming of the US occupying N Korea as well ? :p A few months back I think a N Korean consignment of missiles to Pakistan had been caught, which led to this shady deal being exposed. Search the news archives for proof.Quote:
Originally posted by Xanith
[B]Actually a change in the Pakistani government changed everything. That government with US encouragement is even trying to make peace with your country of India after 50+ years of fighting over Kashmir. Also please don’t forget it was China that gave Pakistan their missile and nuclear technology not the US, before you start to blame them for that as well.[b]
The only change in the Pakistani government is they are licking the US arse better than the earlier governments. They really don't have much choice, after what their pet Al Qaeda did to the US, and considering the fact that they practically survive on the US aid. Afghanistan has already been complaining about intervention in its internal affairs by Pakistan, post Taliban. Also you are only seeing the Pakistani forces fighting the terrorists now. You are ignoring the fact that Pakistan itself harboured them for so many years.
Also I don't understand why the US can't simply send the normal military equipment to Pakistan if it's only for the ongoing conflict against Al Qaeda. Depleted Uranium shells aren't a "normal" military equipment. Granting them the Ally status hints at much bigger issues than the present fight.
Are you actually saying the US didn't support Pakistan? Didn't send any aid? And you can go through news archives again for reports of misuse of that aid for funding terrorist activities across the border. I guess Powell too had on many occasions asked Pakistan to stop the infiltration into Indian territory. When that country hasn't had a proper economy in place, you think it borrowed from China to fund the terrorists and used all the US aid for constructive purposes?Quote:
Originally posted by Xanith
You know you have 0 proof of that and you know it. If anything it has been China’s support of Pakistan that has been more than troublesome for India.
So now the government has assured you it has been shut down, all should be forgotten, eh? Quite interesting! I guess Saddam should also be pardoned by the same logic. Since the atrocities he committed in Iraq are past, and since he doesn't rule Iraq now, he should be set free.Quote:
Originally posted by Xanith
The good thing is that has been shut down. Had it not been for the war on terror and the added resources going into stopping terrorism its likely Mr. Khan would still be in business. And what Pakistan does to its criminals is their business no?
And you believed them??? Except for a brief period of time all the governments in Pakistan have been military governments. Nuclear capability has been a thing of pride for them. And you think the man behind the nuclear capability could just sneak in and out of the country with documents, designs and worst, materials? Opportunistic scientist ??? What the hell do you mean here? He is a national hero, he can bloody well get whatever he wants, which the government would be more than happy to provide. Unless it's some fanatic religious idea of a Muslim Nuclear Power, there's absolutely no reason for him to blackmarket the nuclear knowledge. Do you even understand what damage he has done? Or do you think he is a petty smuggler? My god, your perception levels are amazing!Quote:
Originally posted by Xanith
The government of Pakistan has already denied that this was an official government action. So far there is no proof to otherwise suggest that this is nothing more than an opportunistic scientist cashing in on his knowledge.
India has always stated that the Kashmir issue will be resolved only through bilateral talks, so the US is not at all in the picture here. As far as the roadmap in the Palestinian conflict is concerned, everybody has seen how serious the US is about its own roadmap, going by their reaction to Yasin's killing. Very quick to back up the Israeli version, without even suggesting once Israel should not have struck in that fashion. Of course when the US itself is obsessed with the doctrine of preemptive strike, it can't point a finger at anyone else, let alone a close ally like Israel. If this had been done by India, or any other non-ally country, it would attract the severest of sanctions, no doubt.Quote:
Originally posted by Xanith
The US is chief architect for the Roadmap to peace in Israel and the setting up of an independent Palestinian state. The US is also behind the current peace overtures from Pakistan to India in the attempts the curb the long violence between your country and Pakistan. I honestly don’t know how you can sit there and blast the US when they are the country behind peace attempts in both situations.
If you just can't see these acts of double-standards, it's futile to open your eyes.
.
I happen to be an American who actually likes being American. I think one can do that and at the same time acknowledge that foreign policy in one period can get a country into a lot of trouble in a later period. Condescending attitudes combined with action based on such attitudes tend to make for pain later on.
Even though I don't like to think about it, at various times our government has taken less than appropriate actions in other countries. Take the misapplications of the Monroe doctrine: There would have been no Noriega without constant meddling since Panama was part of Colombia, no Sandinistas without the Banana Republic wars, no illegal immigration and no whole western half of the United States without the Mexican War and the American rail and mining companies of the late 1800s.
However, this is the way of all governments of all countries who have ambitions of whatever sort for other peoples. Think of Britain in China, in India, in South Africa, in Rhodesia, in Palestine. And they were the best of the colonial powers, and I like them. At least when they left, order returned fairly quickly and those countries have moved on.
The ones who chap my as s are the whiners who think they have some moral authority to make judgments about others when their records are disgraceful. Think of the French in Africa and southeast Asia. Or better still, think of the f'n Belgians in the Congo. For people like them to claim world jurisdiction for any crime is pathetic. Better to go back and fix what they broke first. The whiners in the US are a story for another day.
Jimbo.
The U.S. in no way condoned or supported the Isreali attack that killed Yassin. The White House's response to the event was
So you are completely wrong in suggesting that the U.S. supported the attack in any way.Quote:
The White House said on Monday it was "deeply troubled" by Israel's assassination of Hamas leader Sheikh Ahmed Yassin, but unlike the European Union and U.N. Secretary-General Kofi Annan, its reaction fell short of an outright condemnation of the attack.
White House spokesman Scott McClellan told a televised briefing that Washington had no advance word before the attack on Yassin, and said "Israel has the right to defend herself" against the "terrorist" group.
Honeybee, I am starting to think that you are posting your own pessimistic opinions as fact, rather than posting actual facts.
How about this:Quote:
Originally posted by Memnoch1207
The U.S. in no way condoned or supported the Isreali attack that killed Yassin. The White House's response to the event was
So you are completely wrong in suggesting that the U.S. supported the attack in any way.
Honeybee, I am starting to think that you are posting your own pessimistic opinions as fact, rather than posting actual facts.
The US is trying to bring a resolution that condemns China for its poor human rights record. This has pissed off China and it has suspended the bilateral talks with the US over the human rights issue.
The UN Human Rights commission has attacked Israel over the killing of Yasin. I think it should be safe to say Israel's record in human rights situation is quite poor because of all those attacks it has carried out in Palestinian land. But the US can only issue a statement, and not insist that Israel immediately put a stop to the violence? I also have a "pessimistic opinion" as to who was responsible for a large number of UN resolutions brought against Israel from being enforced, and my hatred towards the US points to the US as the culprit in this act. The same country which sidestepped the UN framework when it wanted to invade a country.
Sorry, my pessimistic opinions won't change so suddenly and the US won't emerge as the saviour of the world, or any country in the world including the US of A itself. If you want to live in the illusion that the US is all powerful, can do whatever it wants, and is always right, so be it.
.
In the land of Matador
Dumb beasts are impaled
When swords meet horns
Swords always prevail
In the land of Bull
They run 'em through the streets
Then cower 'fore the bomb
To save their seats.
:mad: :mad: :mad:
Governements were not designed to please everyone. Democratic governments were designed to try to please the majority.
Regardless of what happens in the world, there will always exist at least 2 parties. Those that are for a governments policies and actions and those that are against it.
I understand your opinion and attitude against the U.S.
Everything the U.S. does can be viewed differently by different people, but the U.S.'s actions are generally done with good intentions and done for what the majority considers a good reason, even if those intentions and reasons tend to be self indulgent.
We don't expect other countries or even some of our own citizens to understand or appreciate the actions of the U.S., but a democratic countries government does what the majority asks it to do. But since you are neither an american, nor a part of the american majority, we don't expect you to understand why we do what we do. You have you own biased opinion of the U.S. and you have a right to that opinion, however slanted it may seem to me or any other american.
Nice post there (and no sarcasm in this).Quote:
Originally posted by Memnoch1207
Governements were not designed to please everyone. Democratic governments were designed to try to please the majority.
Regardless of what happens in the world, there will always exist at least 2 parties. Those that are for a governments policies and actions and those that are against it.
I understand your opinion and attitude against the U.S.
Everything the U.S. does can be viewed differently by different people, but the U.S.'s actions are generally done with good intentions and done for what the majority considers a good reason, even if those intentions and reasons tend to be self indulgent.
We don't expect other countries or even some of our own citizens to understand or appreciate the actions of the U.S., but a democratic countries government does what the majority asks it to do. But since you are neither an american, nor a part of the american majority, we don't expect you to understand why we do what we do. You have you own biased opinion of the U.S. and you have a right to that opinion, however slanted it may seem to me or any other american.
However, you should also understand that the USA is part of an international community, which also works more or less as a democracy (I am talking about the UN and the UNSC etc), where matters concerning two or more counries have to be resolved not arbitrarily but through consensus or at least a general majority on the proposed plan of action.
And I don't think the US lived up to its responsibilities in invading Iraq. It tried to simply ignore its responsibility as a UN member, tried to simply sidestep the UN and force through its own opinions. Certainly undemocratic and when viewed from the international perspective it's as dangerous as anything.
Have you ever paused and thought about the responses of a few nations in the past few days that have been published in the news reports? Two of them have been very close allies of the USA. Spain and Saudi Arabia. Let's say the Madrid bombings dethroned Aznar and his rival came to power. But if you see the kind of response his announcement has received from the Spanish people, you should realize that this dissent in the people has been long rooted. The decision to participate in the Iraq invasion must have been forced onto them, and this is how they reacted to it. Certainly calling their action as "appeasement" means you are trying to judge their actions from your angle, and you then must be prepared for someone else doubting your actions.
Take Saudi Arabia's reaction to the US plan of bringing in reforms in the Middle East. Certainly as the prince of Saudi has remarked, the Arabs have a longer history than the US and the US must recognize and respect the right of the Arabs to manage and rule their land/country/government. Talking of bringing reforms in the Middle East is the same as Al Qaeda trying to spread Muslim fundamentalism in the US, at any cost. Then if Al Qaeda declares an all out war against the US and tries to destroy your democracy, only your government is the one to be blamed, because it has provided Al Qaeda or any other such organization with enough of an excuse for such action. And the reason behind this is by its invasion of Iraq, the US has demonstrated that it won't wait for anyone else to join them or agree with them. It has chosen to alienate itself with the entire world. So there's no reason why anyone should help the US in its own war.
That's what I call poking your nose in others' affairs. On an international scale. And that's been happening since long back. With or without justification or rationalization. Since the US has been a superpower of the world in many respects, there hasn't been much active opposition to these policies, but nations are speaking out now, when probably things will go out of control if they don't speak up.
.
PonderousQuote:
quote by honeybee:
Nice post there (and no sarcasm in this).
However, you should also understand that the USA is part of an international community, which also works more or less as a democracy blah, blah, blah blah
Your turn, grave digger.
Just a quick question to all you citizens of the US of A.
How difficult is it for you to be a foreigner?
I lived in Europe (Germany) for 4 years. I never really understood prejudice or racism until then. I never understood what it was like to be hated just for being american until then. People look at you differently, people stare. I know they said bad things about me/us behind our backs, while laughing along with us to our faces.Quote:
Originally posted by KayJay
Just a quick question to all you citizens of the US of A.
How difficult is it for you to be a foreigner?
Me and about 5 friends were setting in a small pub in Bamberg and at the next table over would a group of germans, who were talking, laughing and pointing at us. They raised their beer glasses up like they were toasting us or saying "Cheers".
It was okay, until a german lady sitting in the booth next to us told us, they were a group of neo-nazis and had just toasted to the death of all americans. Needless to say a fight ensued.
But to answer your question, I understand exactly what it is like to be a foreigner. It isn't easy, especially when you realize you are disliked just for being born something you had no control over.
May surprise you but we are as ashamed for this right-wing scum as you were. And I imagine the ordinary German feels the same.
It's just like that pig ignorant American flag waving "USA is the best, the rest sucks" neighbour who calls the Japanese japs or sliteyes, the african american nigger or kook etc ... you tend to shrug and ignore him. Until he insults you of course ...
It's everywhere the same mate. The non-natives are regarded as different. They shouldn't be but they are. Some stereotypical people are found in every country. Even in an immigrant based society like the US.
Sometimes having a sense of humour and not being so uptight about it helps :)
Quote:
Originally posted by hellswraith
I wish everyone would do what the US is doing...
You bomb us, we are going after you. Period... no buts, no ifs, just a promise. If everyone had that attitude, we would triump over the terrorists in my opinion.
So, if someone sets off a bomb in a bar in Boston you would think this was an okay response to years of fund raising for the IRA?
I still don't see whats wrong with that.Quote:
Originally posted by Wally Pipp
...who calls the Japanese japs ..
Is it offensive to offhandidly refer to a British individual as "Brit"?
An Australian as an "Aussie"?
A Polish person a "Pole"?
A Canadian "Canuck"?
A Swedish person "Swede"?
:wave:
well, substitute Japs with any other derogative word for the Japanese then.
You know what I mean Lou, don't be a berk :)
On behalf of some racial minority I take offense :mad:Quote:
Originally posted by Wally Pipp
don't be a berk :)
I once stayed in Reading, which as you all know is in BERKshire.... therefore I find this singularly insulting to people from Reading.
Even if they are a bunch of car nicking, may-pole prancing southern softie's.... erm.
And I take offence to your offence :mad:Quote:
Originally posted by plenderj
On behalf of some racial minority I take offense :mad:
BTW : How was St. Paddy's day ?
Honeybee, I think you should realize how dangerous it would be for India and south-asia if Pakistan felt isolated and started threatening everyone with their nukes.
I feel its better for India and the world if the US tries working with Pakistan, controlling nuclear proliferation from them and taking care of Al-qaida in their country.
Slapping sanctions on their fragile economy is going to set back their democratic process and bring the mullahs to power.
I guess you know what you are talking about, because I can't make any sense out of your comments. Frankly and quite harshly, whatever is going on over the allies in the war against terrorism (read : US-Pakistan, US-Uzbekistan) is nothing but political co-cksucking.Quote:
Originally posted by OrdinaryGuy
Honeybee, I think you should realize how dangerous it would be for India and south-asia if Pakistan felt isolated and started threatening everyone with their nukes.
I feel its better for India and the world if the US tries working with Pakistan, controlling nuclear proliferation from them and taking care of Al-qaida in their country.
Slapping sanctions on their fragile economy is going to set back their democratic process and bring the mullahs to power.
If it were so dangerous to leave Pakistan feeling lonely, maybe instead of Iraq, the US should have attacked Pakistan first....
.
I believe you are forgetting the other 40 or so nations that participated in the liberation of Iraq.Quote:
Originally posted by honeybee
If it were so dangerous to leave Pakistan feeling lonely, maybe instead of Iraq, the US should have attacked Pakistan first....
Damn Skippy!Quote:
Originally posted by honeybee
If it were so dangerous to leave Pakistan feeling lonely, maybe instead of Iraq, the US should have attacked Pakistan first....
.
In fairness HB, wouldn't attacking Pakistan, have been just as bad as attacking Iraq?
Surely the approach of trying to mold a country into a better neighbour is far better than just trying to force them to back down with aggression, which, let's face it, never works.
I realise that India and Pakistan have made some steps towards normalising their relationship, surely this is a more positive approach than the years of brinkmanship.
The problem with you is that you won't try understanding things that you don't like to hear...Quote:
Originally posted by honeybee
I guess you know what you are talking about, because I can't make any sense out of your comments. Frankly and quite harshly, whatever is going on over the allies in the war against terrorism (read : US-Pakistan, US-Uzbekistan) is nothing but political co-cksucking.
If it were so dangerous to leave Pakistan feeling lonely, maybe instead of Iraq, the US should have attacked Pakistan first....
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Pakistan is no Iraq. pakistan is trying for democracy and is cooperating with the world community. Iraq has been defying sanctions and Saddam is a dictator.. there are so many human rights violations in Iraq.
Yes, AQ Qan was responsible for nuclear proliferation and there was possibly exchange of know-how with Korea. But the issue is that when Pakistan is cooperating, and is showing willingness to get out of this mess then there really isnt any case against war. And if the US did dare to attack a nuclear powered state, I'm sure they would fire a couple of nukes towards India.
Frankly I am dead against the Iraq war, and that's solely because the US didn't make enough of a case of the invasion and acted very arrogantly.Quote:
Originally posted by Ex-FB
In fairness HB, wouldn't attacking Pakistan, have been just as bad as attacking Iraq?
Surely the approach of trying to mold a country into a better neighbour is far better than just trying to force them to back down with aggression, which, let's face it, never works.
I realise that India and Pakistan have made some steps towards normalising their relationship, surely this is a more positive approach than the years of brinkmanship.
By the same token, attacking Pakistan too would be nothing but a disaster. However what I find appalling is the US bestowing rewards and aid on Pakistan, specially military aid, through the Non-Nato Ally Status. If it did want to reward Pakistan for its change of heart it could drive an economic reforms campaign there, instead of empowering them with more arms.
I don't mind the US giving aid to Pakistan, but if it's giving aid, it should also ensure the aid doesn't go to Al Qaeda (as in the past) or the insurgents operating in J&K.
For those who still don't want to believe Pakistan's role in fostering Al Qaeda, there was an article on BBC sometime in the last two/three days from the US military about an attack on an Al Qaeda camp, where a number of Pakistani intelligence men died in the attack. The US military didn't want to give any kind of warning to the Al Qaeda men about the attack, so they didn't inform even the Pakistan government about it, and at the last minute a high-ranking official from the US tipped them about the attack just to clear up any confusion as to India was probably attacking the camp. It also said the US officials decided to keep it secret that a number of Pakistani intelligence officials were also among the dead, just so Pakistan could save face and continue in the fight against terrorism.
Regarding turning Pakistan into a better neighbour, FB, let's clear up a few things:
1. In all the previous conflicts with Pakistan, India has never attacked first. It has only swung into action after Pakistan attacked. So if we had to 'force them to back down', it was only after they forced themselves on us.
2. In all the previous conflicts Pakistan has been defeated. This includes the struggle to free Bangladesh which was part of Pakistan for a few years. Defeat is always humiliating, and two of them have been specially so. The military leadership will naturally want to avenge these defeats. Compare it with the opinion in the US after 9/11 against Al Qaeda. I am sure the US will have more people with sensible reactions than in Pakistan.
3. All these years Pakistan has never seen a stable democratic government. I think even the military regimes haven't been stable. Islamic hardliners and fundamentalists have a very strong grip on the people's minds. And the only thing these governments and political parties have taught the people there is to hate India over the Kashmir problem. They need to hang onto it to turn the people's attention away from other problems and deficits, like economic problems. If the Kashmir issue is resolved, people will soon turn their attention to their own government's shortfalls and wrongdoings.
4. India has taken a lot of initiatives to start a dialogue and a peace process, but for reasons only known to them, the Pakistani rulers don't seem genuinely interested in seeing the talks to completion. Just yesterday Musharraf has issued an ultimatum that the Kashmir issue must be resolved within the next two months, otherwise he will not be responsible for any disputes and conflicts arising out of it. This kind of response simply cancels out any goodwill created by the initiatives undertaken by us. You should also ask yourself how long and repeatedly we should be pursuing this path, when the other side only seems eager to make political gains out of it, instead of finding a permanent and peaceful solution. By and large, the Indian government has been pretty responsible in its actions and reactions, unless the situation in the Palestine conflict, where each side is trying to outdo the other in provocative talks and violent actions. Do you think the US action of awarding NNAS to Pakistan, and opening way for further and enhanced military aid to the country, would be beneficial to the region?
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Possible exchange? I am sure it would be more conclusive than that. And I think IAEA has recently asked Pakistan for permission to inspect its nuclear installations precisely to verify if they really are the source of the proliferation.Quote:
Originally posted by OrdinaryGuy
Yes, AQ Qan was responsible for nuclear proliferation and there was possibly exchange of know-how with Korea.
OK, so you mean to say your government has turned a blind eye towards something as severe as nuclear proliferation, and that too with the nations in the 'axis of evil', just because Pakistan is now an ally of the US?
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Just face it Honeybee, as Don Corleone said, "Keep you friends close but your enemies closer."
The US is looking out for US interests, not for you and India. If you dont' like it, sorry.