Bush's Immigration Policy

Normally, I'm pro-Bush. But this time, being from South Texas where I've already seen my fair share of illegal immigrants (they're Mexicans - we all know it) I just can't see how this would benefit the US as a whole. For those who aren't familiar, here's the major points of the deal, taken from CNN:

• Workers in the United States illegally join a temporary labor program.
• Those now-illegal immigrants then can apply for permanent residence but get no preferential consideration.
• Employers hiring these workers must show they cannot find U.S. laborers to fill their jobs.
• These undocumented workers get guaranteed wage and employment rights.
• These workers receive a temporary three-year visa, renewable once. They are expected to return to their countries of birth once their visas expire.
• Congress is urged to increase current annual limit of 140,000 "Green Cards.".
• The Department of Homeland Security is to administer the program.

Bush is catching heat from both the left & the right on this issue, but it's still expected to pass. How about this: protect the goddamn southern border like we're protecting our airports and then we wouldn't have this problem. Round up all the illegals working for hotels (maids), farms (pickers), and whatever Mom & Pop businesses the majority of illegals go into and get hired.

If the employer can't get those positions filled, then it's obvious that no one wants to do the kind of sh*it-in-your-face work for $4 an hour when they can go to McDonald's and do the same, if not better work. RAISE THE GODDAMN PAY!

Sorry Mr. Man if it cuts into your profit and you're not going to be running at a 40% net over gross revenue, but rules are rules, laws are laws, and countries have borders for a reason.

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Originally posted by Shawn N
How about this: protect the goddamn southern border like we're protecting our airports and then we wouldn't have this problem.

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Seems you have no idea what a border is.

Great comment! Now what're you talking about?

How long is the border between US and Mexico? What is that consist of? Mountains, desert, jungle, rivers, what? How they are supposed to protect it??? In an airport all passengers pass through some controlled gates. How many gates can take control of the long border???

You're taking my wording too literally. All I'm saying is put the same kind of effort into border security as there is being put into airport security.

I'm not saying to put a string of soldiers holding hands along the border from California to Texas, but protect the damn thing. Just because the majority of the problem is in the lower 4 states doesn't mean that it's not effecting the rest of the country.

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Originally posted by Shawn N
Great comment! Now what're you talking about?

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It's impossible to guard the entire thing.

I could GUARENTEE you I could cross the boarder back and forth without being detected. There is just no way in hell they're going to cover that HUGE ass boarder.

I don't like the fact that illegals are now allowed to work here, but if a legitament business cannot find ANYONE to work, letting an illegal take the job isn't a big deal. The problem is that it'll be abused to all hell and Americans will probably end up losing more jobs to outsiders. It's bad enough IT companies are outsourcing to India.

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Originally posted by Shawn N
You're taking my wording too literally. All I'm saying is put the same kind of effort into border security as there is being put into airport security.

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That would be stupid. People can get into an Airport and fly a 30ton (I don't know how much an Airplane weights, lets just say it's 30ton) loaded with fuel into ANYTHING or even blow one up. With the border, all they have access to is a fancy fence.

Now would you rather protect 30tons of metal and fuel that can be flown at over 500MPh, or a fence and a few people coming in every so often?

The answer is obvious.

BTW, we need a forums for crap like this, I don't like getting into these arguements but I ALWAYS end up getting into them.

I'm not arguing.

Here's what I'd like see done by the federal government (not state government) to help guard the border: Put military watchposts on the border that have cities (population) within 30 miles of the border on either side. That's it.

If there's a city within 30 miles of the border on the US side, put something there near the border. If there's a city within 30 miles of the border on the Mexican side, put something there near the border.

It's not a perfect plan, but it gets the ball rolling.

Screw that, I say we extend the fence to be 20 feet under ground and 10 more feet above ground, then electrify the fence with a FATAL dose of electricity

I'd be all for fatal but killing animals would put PETA's panties in a wad.

Anyways, I guess there's no differentiating opinions on the subject. Strange.

Have you heard of NAFTA?
Or it only works one-way?

I fail to see the basis of your argument.

You're talking about an agreement between 3 countries that lifted tariffs and duties yet managed to benefit both Canada and Mexico due to lower wages. The US is importing more, exporting less.

What are you talking about?

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Originally posted by Juan Carlos Rey
Have you heard of NAFTA?
Or it only works one-way?

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Do you know what NAFTA is?

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The US is importing more, exporting less.

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Well that depends on what you are importing and exporting, US corporations do export alot of jobs for cheaper production in other countries and then re-import the goods.

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Originally posted by nkad
Well that depends on what you are importing and exporting, US corporations do export alot of jobs for cheaper production in other countries and then re-import the goods.

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Funny - that's exactly how I see IT outsourcing.

Exactly! sucks.

Well Shawn N you can always join ranch rescue, and let's face it the whole thing is just to try and get hispanic votes, like Bush said in the last election "I'm proud to have latin blood in my body" or something to that effect

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Originally posted by kasracer
Do you know what NAFTA is?

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At least he didntsay NAMBLA

Protecting that border would be far bigger than the airports. Putting up guard posts isn't even a partial solution. If you harden one part of the border, that just moves the migration to other parts, and the thing is too bloody long to harden all of it. Putting up a "fence", whether it be real, or a cordon of eyes, is economically impractical. I understand the desire, but the thing is too big. Even the Great Wall of China wouldn't actually work. Not only would you need the wall, but you'd need to patrol it regularly.

How about an invisible, high amp, force field like the kind used in Star Trek. I’ll go build one, brb…

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Originally posted by nkad
How about an invisible, high amp, force field like the kind used in Star Trek. I’ll go build one, brb…

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I'll take one as well!

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I could GUARENTEE you I could cross the boarder back and forth without being detected. There is just no way in hell they're going to cover that HUGE ass boarder.

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wanna bet 20 bucks?

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Originally posted by morrowasted
wanna bet 20 bucks?

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Buy me a plane ticket to Mexico, money for a rental car, and a helicopter to take me to an airport when I get across as well as a plane ticket back to Maryland, then a Limo to drive me back to my house.

Pay for all that and I'll bet you $20 I could do it.

Sure. Because you don't look MEXICAN. Haven't you heard of Profiling?!?

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Originally posted by nkad
Sure. Because you don't look MEXICAN. Haven't you heard of Profiling?!?

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You cannot be serious. Do you even know what the boundry line is like?

Yes I do. I mean they are still going to ask for your passport/photo ID or what not. Ask where you are going and your reasons for being in Mexico. If they have resonable doupt that you shouldn't be in a certain place then they can further question you (I would assume)

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Originally posted by nkad
Yes I do. I mean they are still going to ask for your passport/photo ID or what not. Ask where you are going and your reasons for being in Mexico. If they have resonable doupt that you shouldn't be in a certain place then they can further question you (I would assume)

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Do you even KNOW how illegal immagrants get here?

You ****ing nazis must have forgot how America started. Anyone ever here of the American dream? I guess that only applies to white people. And Shawn N obviously doesn't know **** about business to think they are cutting that kind of profit. Your answer is to just pay more for **** jobs that white folk wont do anyhow. Then the company stops making a profit and goes away then white and brown folks are out of work. Beside a lot of times America still profits since, depending on how they are paid they may still pay taxes or their employer does even though they receive no benefit from said taxes. I think you should be born in a village where there is no work or you have a family that you can't even feed. Tell me what lengths you wont go to to feed them. Even if that means having to go far away and live and work in **** ass conditions to earn what would be a **** ass living by american standards just so you can send money back home to feed your family or give them a chance at something better. Americans are so selfish, we never think of the other guy. And a land of immigrants worried about immigration, huh.

Saying "Nazis" is waaaay to over the edge. I'm not a xenophobe. I have no problems with people from other countries coming into the US. All I'm saying is come into the country legally and when you're in MY COUNTRY, pick up your slack and earn your f-in way. Don't come here and pick up the welfare buck that American tax payers will pick up - that's total s**t.

Edneeis: that was just a number of the top of the head. And after actually working for an employer that hired illegal immigrants but still working the numbers in the place, I think I have a good idea what I'm talking about.

I know that 40% is way over the top, but that's not the point. The point is that businesses (mind you this is in South Texas) would not be paying the extremely low wage if they knew that people other than illegal's wouldn't do it. It's the same as outsourcing and as a coder from CA, you oughta know what I'm talking about.

Again: I have no problem with people from other countries. How could I? Both of my parent's are immigrants. However, they both entered the States legally and made their fair share of impact on the economy.

drunk

Well if you don't know why this is a bad thing then your a complete dumbass about economics.

Many of those mexicans will come here to work for a while then return home and start a business. Money here has a lot more vaule back in mexico because their cost of living is a lot cheaper then ours. Thus these people are willing to work for under minimum wage.

You have a flood of people willing to work for under minimum wage. Companies hire those people to get the job done cheaper and improve their bottom line. Americans who have been here all their lives will suffer because they'll have to start working at those low ass wages but they cant go home to make a business like the illegals, they have to stay here and live in poverty.

are all americans silly?

Dude kasracer, i was refering to the damn sections of the border that allow traffic to flow.

Problem is, Bush isn't a conservative, he's a repblican, and a politian first.
Much like ::shudder:: Clinton was.

Illegal amnesty?
Steel tariffs?
Farm bailouts?
Medicare entilements?

He panders to the largest voter population apparently.
And still has to address the Iraqi invasion.
(yes, yes, world a better place without him, but ends don't justify the action, does it?)

Problem is, ain't no way I'm voting for Dean. and there is no serious contenders on the
republican primaries. suxor!

nkad, what kas was saying is that you can walk across the border with ease. Nobody will ask you what your business is. He would have an easy time of it crossing at a guarded border, while a Mexican national might have a harder time, but with a long border such as we have, only the desert heat is an obstacle. Considering how much traveling I have done by foot, I don't even think of a border as just the guarded points, and I doubt any illegal would either. Fair amount of drug traffic through the Sonoran desert, too, so immigrants aren't the only ones crossing the border.

I have worked with Mexican and Bosnian immigrants, and found them to be industrious people. A lot of low paying jobs can't be filled by Americans with similar work ethics. Of course we could pay more, but since I'm in government, you know who is doing the paying.....you are. We live in a country where goods and services are pretty cheap. Most anybody can afford a car, a tv, and other basic luxuries. I've been caving in some of the poorest parts of this country, and everybody has a car (up on blocks, but it's a car) and a tv. Our food is cheap, and gas is cheaper than any beverage except water. If we raise the lowest wages, we may not fill the jobs with Americans, but we will spend more. I don't know what is right on this issue, but I don't begrudge the immigrants a chance to make minimum wage.

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Originally posted by JPicasso
Problem is, Bush isn't a conservative, he's a repblican, and a politian first.
Much like ::shudder:: Clinton was.

Illegal amnesty?
Steel tariffs?
Farm bailouts?
Medicare entilements?

He panders to the largest voter population apparently.
And still has to address the Iraqi invasion.
(yes, yes, world a better place without him, but ends don't justify the action, does it?)

Problem is, ain't no way I'm voting for Dean. and there is no serious contenders on the
republican primaries. suxor!

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One word: Clark

I think the whole issue is if an immigrant enters the US illegally then they should be deported. There are procedures that must be adhered to when entering this country, such as, making sure your aren't a criminal or carrying a deadly contagious disease, like SARS.

I agree with Edneeis on the fact that people come to this country for the "American Dream", but if you come here, don't swim across a river and climb a wall to do it.

What Bush is proposing is to pretty much give immunity to all immigrants that are currently in the country illegally. I like Bush, but that part of his proposal I do not agree with.

The real issue is the legality of their entrance into this country.

Maybe I was a bit harsh but I have a strong opinion on the matter. This plan was initially started before 9/11 when President Fox come over and got buddy buddy with Bush, but then 9/11 happened and the borders were of a different concern. I think the legal way to get into this country should be revised then especially for our neighboring Canada and Mexico. Also I think it is the greater good to help people from other countries regardless of how they enter the country. Illegals that work here and send money home could eventally help their own country to achieve financial stability and thus remove the need to leave Mexico to find gainful or any employment. This also solves the problem of illegal immigrants and I'm sure Americas role in that would be remembered. Its a bit like filesharing, its going to happen regardless, so you might as well embrace it and find a way to comprimise. If I really thought that Americans would do most of the jobs that they usually do then maybe I'd have more sympathy. To me most Americans are saying hey all the mexicans are stealing our jobs, but if you said ok then you do it they'd say no I don't want to do it, I just don't want them doing it or give me more money.

I'm a fan of competition in business. Its nice when two competitors duke it out with each other for market share and lower prices in the process. Its nice because as a consumer I reap the reward. This is a similiar situation only the shoe is on the other foot and its American works that are faced with competition only instead of stepping up to the challenge they would rather eliminate the competition. Grant it there are other more legal forms of competition.

Outsourcing sucks if you are American but not if you are Indian or whomever is on the receiving end of it. That is the nature of business to make profit not to make employees profitable. Unforunately we as consumers always wanting lower prices have had a part in outsourcing.

I'll get down off the soap box now. I do apologize for the Nazi comment.

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Originally posted by nkad
Dude kasracer, i was refering to the damn sections of the border that allow traffic to flow.

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Why would you!? We are talking about illegals, why the hell would you even THINK about those parts of it?

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Do you know what NAFTA is?

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NAFTA is gasoline in Spanish.
There are many similar trades, Mercosur, ALCA, LALALC, etc.
And yes, I know what NAFTA is.
And bilaterality seems to work only one way.
And I'm a little bored.
Bye.

Maybe because you had no point.

I agree. I am totaly Pro Bush and I actually took the time to goto the polls and vote for him. But he is completely dropping the ball on this immigration thing.

That said though, his policy is a lot better than Californias policy was/maybe still is. They were going to allow every illegal to get a drivers license!!!! A lot of stupid ass people in this country.

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Originally posted by Arc
I agree. I am totaly Pro Bush and I actually took the time to goto the polls and vote for him. But he is completely dropping the ball on this immigration thing.

That said though, his policy is a lot better than Californias policy was/maybe still is. They were going to allow every illegal to get a drivers license!!!! A lot of stupid ass people in this country.

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Yes its much better to have them all driving around without licenses and insurance. That way when they crash into they wont stick around. That way the state doesn't get the money for car insurance and licensing/registration fees. I mean obviously since its illegal none of them are doing it anyway.

Thank of it this way.. There are alot of stuipd ass people that shouldn't HAVE a damn drivers license.

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Originally posted by Edneeis
Yes its much better to have them all driving around without licenses and insurance. That way when they crash into they wont stick around. That way the state doesn't get the money for car insurance and licensing/registration fees. I mean obviously since its illegal none of them are doing it anyway.

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Helllooo? Does the fact that these people are illegal immagrants not even enter into the equation??? Yes legal Americans should have Drivers licenses, but illegal immagrants should be shipped back to Mexico, not given a License!!!


In fact when they show up at the DMV they should just escort them right into the truck heading to Mexico/whereever they are from.

The point is so apparent, it really shouldn't even be an issue of discussion.

Illegals in the country -> Deport them.

Or, if you're Edneeis
Illegals in the country -> Give them some rights (we'll figure out when to draw the line later) -> MAAAAAYBE deport them. Only if they've killed someone, but nothing less.

Some people are way too forgiving - friggin liberals, I swear. Give them an inch and they'll want the entire mile.

BTW why did this get moved to "World Events?" Since when is an American policy considered a world event?

Well, it's also a Mexican issue, so it is a little bigger than one country.

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In fact when they show up at the DMV they should just escort them right into the truck heading to Mexico/whereever they are from.

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If they will be deported, you can be sure that they won't show up at the DMV, so you can have it both ways. Make it legal for them to get drivers licenses, but deport any that apply for them. That way they will simply not get licenses and nothing will change, but both sides here will get the part that they are asking for.

We never will deport or end illegal immigration as long as Mexicans can't earn good wages in Mexico. We can't close the border, it is too long, too empty, and too rugged. If we start with the premise that we can't stop it, we should look at managing it.

You're on a leaking boat, with water coming in. You can't stop the leaks, how do you manage it? Pumping water back out can work to some extent, but keeping the boat afloat with water in the bilge has to be the primary goal. More pumping might work, if you can get enough pumps, but compartmentalization might work otherwise. We can't pump enough, we'd better deal with it.

I see this as a way to keep jobs in America.

Manufacturing is closing its doors and moving to Mexico where the labor is cheap. I know at least 2 friends that have lost their jobs at Motorolla because production was moved to Mexico

So whats better, have the jobs go there and get paid 4 bucks an hour or have them come here work for 6-7 bucks an hour and pay taxes and actually keep a good number of american citizen jobs by keeping that company here in the US?

This will encourage immigrants to come here and get a job, not to come here claim amnesty and let the government support them.

As a mexican food fan, I've found that, generally, Mexicans make the best mexican food. All mexican chefs should be given a free pass. :D

If someone is in any country Ilegally, then they should be deported. No questions asked. It is possible to gain legal entry into this country. Any Mexican busisness can contract in the US. If someone wants in. instead of spending their life savings to get smuggled across the border, spend $1.25 on an american newspaper, find an employer looking for a contractor, and bid on the job. If you get the job, all you need is a work order to be approved to get across. It is not that difficult to get into most places as long as that govertnment is guarenteed to make tax money off of you. Problem Is, a lot of the "illegals" are the ones collecting government money and working under the table as well. Their way of thinking is why work In the US legally when they can collect 2 seperate full time incomes, tax free, and only work one job. At least this deal will keep them from getting the US government free handouts and will lessen the tax burden that they cause.

I like how people oversimplify things. In most situations this big and controversial, there are always pros and cons.

You white people dont want to pick tomatoes? let mexicans do it. Is it low to make them do it? no because they want to and they can make a living out of it back in Mexico.

Is it good for the american economy? of course, enterprises will lower their costs and it will keep them from moving all the way to China along with their higher paid jobs whites have.

Should it be an immigration policy, of course! since this people are good for you, you should order things in a way everyone has benefits!

(Ohh but if you dont like them in your country, well thats too bad there is no turning back)

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Originally posted by Xcoder
I like how people oversimplify things. ...
You white people...

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I see what you mean.
Oversimplification indeed.

Try Again?
No Racist remarks this time.
:mad:

Xcoder you obviously have no concept of what you are talking about. "Enterprises" will lower their costs only because illegals will do it cheaper than any US citizen (no matter the race or nationality). At the same time, this means that that's one less job an actual American could have.

Please leave the discussion to the adults.

1) Bush sucks (always has..long before this immigration policy).

2) Nafta was a plan to help our neighbors, and ease the problems with the tremendous transportation of goods between US and Canadian borders.

For Mexico: Either the TV comes from some country in ASIA, or it comes from Mexico.
You could help out the Asians, on the other side of the world, or your neighboring country to the south.

If you help out your neighboring country, it becomes more stable, less people (theoretically), leave Mexico because there are more higher-paying jobs than there was before, higher quality of living, so on so forth.

We still get our cheap products, and they get more jobs.

Bottom line: Those jobs are leaving, its just matter of where you want those jobs to go: Asia or Central America.

1) Considering his opposition, I'm almost 100% positive Bush will be re-elected this year.

The topic is kind of off point but NAFTA is one of the worst ideas our government has ever come up with. It should have been shot down on it's tenth anniversary. On paper it sounds good: lower taxes, tarriffs, and whatever-elses on the three countrys to ease trading. What wasn't planned though was how US companies would be moving to Mexico because labor is cheaper there just like OberCanober has already said.

Unfortuantely Shawn, those jobs were already moving offshore, across the Pacific Ocean to Asia (especially China as of present).

Shawn N, I see why youre saying that just by lookin' at your signature.

Offshoring sucks, but keeps prices low.

Not to mention it gives us and China a reason not blow each other up.

The United States of America was founded on immigration. Because of immigration, our country received the cream-of-the-crop from other nations of the world, because they were normally viewed as anti-<insert religion-here> or crazy people like witches/wizards in the earlier centuries. The best came to America to be the best that they could be, work as hard as they could, harness opportunity, etc. (Yes, I know many also came here to evade the police/courts in their own country.)

I say, keep immigration alive. That is what makes America great. Anyone ignorant enough to think that, "Hey, I was born here - screw everyone else," should be the ones thrown out of the country to make room for someone else.

There is my 2 pieces-o-eight.

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Originally posted by HardCode
The United States of America was founded on immigration. Because of immigration, our country received the cream-of-the-crop from other nations of the world, because they were normally viewed as anti-<insert religion-here> or crazy people like witches/wizards in the earlier centuries. The best came to America to be the best that they could be, work as hard as they could, harness opportunity, etc. (Yes, I know many also came here to evade the police/courts in their own country.)

I say, keep immigration alive. That is what makes America great. Anyone ignorant enough to think that, "Hey, I was born here - screw everyone else," should be the ones thrown out of the country to make room for someone else.

There is my 2 pieces-o-eight.

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Is that what they are teaching/taughht you at school :eek:!!! AFAIK, the majority of imigrants to the US initially were either slaves or forced from their countrys due to famine. Later on, it was the lure of good farming land.

Don't quite know where you get that "We were flawed geniuses, understood in our own country but we made it in the US" history lesson. Hollywood maybe?

Still holding a grudge against the "colonies?"

Read about immigration into the United States, not the New World and then you will realize how and why people came to this country (i.e. late 1800s to early 1900s to today.)