Nice to know your 'friends' ...

ICC : International Criminal court. Specially designed Court of law where people can be charged with crimes against humanity if and only if the country of origin neglects to do so.

So the ICC begins its work, the US is opposed because they fear a stream of accusations against US nationals. Sound fear. And somehow a sound reason not to accept the ICC.

But threathening EU-friends (in this case the Netherlands because the ICC will be based at The Hague. Imagine if the headquarters would be based in London ... ) with armed conflict and adopting a legal framework to do so when they should hold a US national prisoner arrested is just plain wrong.
You're not winning any friends over here Mr. Bush.

I knew you were a moron but such a moron, that I never expected ....

:rolleyes:

Am I wrong in wanting it to happen, so we can see what our 'Great Leaders' will do.

Would we back down, or would the US?

Actually who's side would the UK be on?

Is it just me or does this sound very much like playground bullies ?

Thats what international diplomacy is, isn't it?

You're totally right Wal, the Yanks are behaving in a more bullying way than ever before. Mind you, Tony Blair is totally trying to back out of joining in a war against Iraq.

Unless they changed the rules I thought it went like this :

VB Code:

If country = "Non ally" then
   ThreathenWithTalksAndWeaponry(country, home)
Else
   TalkItOverAndCompromiseWithEconomicPromises(Country, home)
End if

VB Code:

WeGotProb:
 
If country = "Non ally" then
   ThreathenWithTalksAndWeaponry(country, home)
Else
   TalkItOverAndCompromiseWithEconomicPromises(Country, home)
    If Result = Not True Then
        country = "non ally"
        GoTo WeGotProb
    EndIf 
End if

VB Code:

If result = Not True ...

False then :)

Quote:

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Originally posted by Wally Pipp

VB Code:

If result = Not True ...

False then :)

---

VB Code:

If result = "We didn't get our own way so we are not happy"

Takes longer to type:)

I'm pissed off with how america's acting, but even more so with how johnny is following and looking up to bush.

I don't want Australia to turn out like america :O

Look, I can understand if it were Iraq or something but this is Holland, a long standing member of the EU and the NATO.
I know Bush is not in the game for making friends but if he isn't then why the NATO, why call us 'our overseas friends', why ask us if we want to join an invasion of Iraq ?
This 'do it our way or no way at all' is getting too grotesque.
It's time the Eu's 'great leaders' stopped kissing each other's and the US's arse and stand up for themselves like they're supposed to do.
Not too much to ask, is it ?

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Originally posted by Jack Daniels
I don't want Australia to turn out like america :O

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Won't happen, you lot can laugh at yourselves, if somebody pisses you off you'll just stick your v's up and have another beer.

Quote:

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Originally posted by Wally Pipp
Look, I can understand if it were Iraq or something but this is Holland, a long standing member of the EU and the NATO.
I know Bush is not in the game for making friends but if he isn't then why the NATO, why call us 'our overseas friends', why ask us if we want to join an invasion of Iraq ?
This 'do it our way or no way at all' is getting too grotesque.
It's time the Eu's 'great leaders' stopped kissing each other's and the US's arse and stand up for themselves like they're supposed to do.
Not too much to ask, is it ?

---

Wally I'd love to argue with you, but I actually agree with everything you're saying.
This could be the Eu's chance to let the US know we're not going to be bullied by them.

of course :-) roll calls at the pub @ some military establishments.

The Aussies answer to every problem : "Oi shut it mate, buy us a beer or get out !"

Glen, they haven't got the balls ...

Quote:

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Originally posted by Wally Pipp
Glen, they haven't got the balls ...

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Hope you're wrong, 'cos if the US do push us this far and get away with it, we're in deep ****. They'll just go further and further until we become a sort of colony.
The rest of the world has decided to do something, if the US don't like thats ok, but they can't, or shouldn't be allowed, to interfere.
If a US citizen was convicted in the UK under UK law the US wouldn't interfere, so an international court should have more power than a UK court not less.

I'm sure that if the US step too far outta line (which is highly likely)

that china will seize the opportunity or a like country, to squish em like da bugs they are !

My point exaxtly.

In a way, we're almost the 51st state already ...

Firstly, just let me say that I agree with you Wally, America are out of line.

However, let me be the devil's advocate and point out that America feels they are in a unique position in that their citizens will be particularly vulnerable to politically motivated accusations.

I don't deny their position because it is true but what bugs me here is that this time it's a friendly nation, a NATO member and a UN long standing member. Furthermore, the Netherlands are no thread to the US whatsoever. They are even pro-US.
This act is solely to prevent any nations to file 'libellous' law suits.

On the other hand, to file a law suit with the ICC means that you will need some strong evidence to back up your claim and presumably, unless you have done some crime against humanity and if your country of origin is not pressing charges, then and only then a law suit may be filed. Not everyone can file claims as they see fit.

There are many other ways of saying 'we don't agree'.
If someone commits a crime on another countries' soil then surely he must be trialled there and according to their law.
Camp X-ray rings any bells ?

Wally

Quote:

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I don't deny their position because it is true but what bugs me here is that this time it's a friendly nation, a NATO member and a UN long standing member. Furthermore, the Netherlands are no thread to the US whatsoever. They are even pro-US.
This act is solely to prevent any nations to file 'libellous' law suits.

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I doubt that it's anything to do with the Netherlands. It's purely the principle that their citizens may be exposed to politically motivated litigation in an international court.

Anyway, like I said, I agree with you. :)

Yeah ... it still mystifies me how someone can be that creatively dumb and be in such a power seat :)

Could be worse, at one point the President had lost his mind (poor Reagan). Wasn't a dog up for being senator in texas a month or so ago? I suppose he couldn't have been worse than Bush :rolleyes:

Well, as long as there are voices of reason there's not really something to fear.
It's when those voices of reason start to believe in the stupidity that lingers around the White House you have to worry.

I mean, this surely could've been handled much better right ?

Quote:

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Originally posted by Wally Pipp
Well, as long as there are voices of reason there's not really something to fear.
It's when those voices of reason start to believe in the stupidity that lingers around the White House you have to worry.

I mean, this surely could've been handled much better right ?

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I guess by 'this' you mean the whole Afgan/Terrorist thing?

I reckon the only way to go really is to have a world army/police force which is totally impartial and democratically elected/accountable.. which could investigate international crimes and hold individuals accountable. Rather than individual countrys charging in to "git those terrorisimitist indivimiduals."

With this I actually meant the ICC business :)
But yes, it seems that his entire political carreer is somewhat 'tainted' by his personal interlecktshualissem.

How can something like this happen? How can people support such a man so far as to make him the most powerful man in the world?

You shouldn't be asking me dear.
Don't you guys have Mr. Blair, the Red Wizard with the Flair ? :)

Quote:

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Originally posted by Wally Pipp
You shouldn't be asking me dear.
Don't you guys have Mr. Blair, the Red Wizard with the Flaires ? :)

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He's more a cordroy jeans man, and he's got no backbone :(

Tony's great. He's a man of great personal courage and integrity, and is dashed handsome to boot.

:rolleyes:

He's got a front bone if his kids are anything to go by :)

:(

Quote:

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Originally posted by Wally Pipp
He's got a front bone if his kids are anything to go by :)

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He clearly doesn't use it wisely, though. I mean, Cherie?

Ugh. :(

Well, it was in the morning paper but unless you understand dutch you're going to have to verify for yourself.

If you really can't be bothered to google for it : http://www.usaforicc.org/facts_news.html

:(

You know what I honestly think ?
I think that someone somewhere in a cave in the Tora Bora region is smiling to himself knowing that he got more out of the deal than he ever bargained for.

That's what I think about the whole period after 9/11.

:(

I hope that there will be a moment in time when we look back on all this and slap our foreheads saying 'what the hell were we thinking ?'. I hope that moment comes real soon now.
For every stupid decision, every idiotic speech, every moronic list that is made public from now on will be judged, scaled and commented. And it will play right in the hands of you know who.

/sighs ...

Wally

Quote:

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I mean, this surely could've been handled much better right ?

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Well, domestically, it may come accross like he is trying to protect the rights of the American people.

:(

I'm not taking this too seriously, this is just the way I see it:

Why do people have to "bash" america, just because you dont like a political leader, do you have to talk about China squishing us like bugs. C'mon, china's got enough problems of their own they would be too scared to attack US. Being an american citizen and soldier, I have to say I'm offended at the way some people talk about my country, say what you want about the leaders but when you say the US and America you are talking about me. Unless you are talking about hoping to get me killed by an invasion on the US, please be more specific on what you are talking bad about. And if you are talking about a US invasion, hehe let me know I will take it up in a pm ;)

Also just to clear the part up about who has power = to the president. The senate does not my friend, and the Senate and House make up Congress. It goes a little like this:

President = Congress ----> by the time Congress gets around to denying the president to do something it will already have been done. If you will, look at past Congress meetings, some have lasted for weeks.

President > House of Representative's
President > Senate

The Supreme Court, pretty much in the same boat as Congress.

If you hang around here long enough bbarrick you get de-sensitized to the disparaging remarks about our country and can pick out the valid arguments and interesting discussions from the flamers on both sides. It takes a while but there are some good people in this forum....once you wade through the other BS.

:(

bbarrick

Quote:

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Why do people have to "bash" america, just because you dont like a political leader

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Like it or not, you and your country are represented by the people you elect into power and their actions reflect on your country.

Quote:

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Being an american citizen and soldier, I have to say I'm offended at the way some people talk about my country, say what you want about the leaders but when you say the US and America you are talking about me.

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In this thread, there is a very specific issue at hand although I admit that there has been a lot of general America "bashing".

In my opinion, some people go to far and say things which are badly thought out but many of the critisisms are valid.

Perhaps America receives an undue amount of attention but it's only natural that the actions of the richest country in the world are more highly scrutinised than any other.

Quote:

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Hey man, I spent most of my adult life in the US Army.

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Good, I'm glad to read that. :)

I was just stating who had "power". When it comes down to it Bush has the power. You're right though, he has tons of advisors, representatives and senator's alike that persuade him to do this or do that. But even still, when it comes down to it Bush does what he thinks will keep him in another 4 years. Just like 9/11, he had to attack Afgahnistan, else he would be hanging from a tree out in the middle of Texas (which is where I'm from). But why did he do it? Not just anger as I'm sure he was quite pissed, but to make the majority happy. And I am definitly not the majority or else Afgahnistan and Iraq would no longer be country's.....for the most part anyway.

As far as global court, bah...if you cant handle yer crap in you're own country then you got problems.

And for whatever the US did or said about it, I could care less as long as it A) doesnt cause unecesary war B) the final result is what most american's want and C) China doesnt squish us like bugs, omg i'm soo scared :eek:

Quote:

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Perhaps America receives an undue amount of attention but it's only natural that the actions of the richest country in the world are more highly scrutinised than any other.

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Damn, we are the richest country in the world? I'm sure my 2 year old son doesnt know that when I can barely afford to put food on his plate. For those who want to criticise america for being rich, not saying you are, but remember we are still humans.

bbarrick

Quote:

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And I am definitly not the majority or else Afgahnistan and Iraq would no longer be country's.....for the most part anyway.

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Thank god for that...:rolleyes:

Quote:

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As far as global court, bah...if you cant handle yer crap in you're own country then you got problems.

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Well we can handle our own "crap". It's the representatives of your country that believe that your citizens should be above international law.

Quote:

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And for whatever the US did or said about it, I could care less as long as it A) doesnt cause unecesary war B) the final result is what most american's want and C) China doesnt squish us like bugs, omg i'm soo scared

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That's part of America's problem. It wouldn't face so much critisism if it's people did care about other country's attitudes towards their actions.

Quote:

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Well we can handle our own "crap". It's the representatives of your country that believe that your citizens should be above international law.

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Give me an example please.

Quote:

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That's part of America's problem. It wouldn't face so much critisism if it's people did care about other country's attitudes towards their actions.

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It's a problem? You care what people think about the way you act? I sure dont, because however I am acting is who I am and what I believe. It's called self confidence, and yes some american's have a little too much, but I could care less how they act and I could care less how they think I'm acting. Just like when they showed on the news of people in UK mocking Bush, I didnt care...didnt bother me one bit. They looked rather foolish, but who care's. It's life.

It's like the old saying "My fist end's where the other man's nose begins". In other words, you can do whatever you wish, but the minute you change someone else's life because of it then it's a problem.

And please, specify what action's we've taken to piss you all off, im rather curious. ;)

bbarrick

Quote:

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It's a problem? You care what people think about the way you act? I sure dont, because however I am acting is who I am and what I believe. It's called self confidence, and yes some american's have a little too much, but I could care less how they act and I could care less how they think I'm acting.

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It's one thing to be self confident but it can be taken too far, and then it's just arrogance. However, if you don't care, you don't care. But be aware that the actions of your country, or at least the way they are perceived, can have negative repercussions.

Quote:

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Just like when they showed on the news of people in UK mocking Bush, I didnt care...didnt bother me one bit.

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That makes the news in the US? LOL! :D

Quote:

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And please, specify what action's we've taken to piss you all off, im rather curious.

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Presumably, you haven't read this thread from the beginning or else you would know.

Not that you care, this thread is about America's refusal to sign up to an international treaty that would allow perpetrators of crimes against humanity to be tried in an international court in the Hague. America has said that it will not recognise the authority of such a court and it's citizens will not be tried under this court (threatening to remove them by force is need be).

:(

Quote:

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Originally posted by Wally Pipp
You know what I honestly think ?
I think that someone somewhere in a cave in the Tora Bora region is smiling to himself knowing that he got more out of the deal than he ever bargained for.

That's what I think about the whole period after 9/11.

---

Well, you're definitely wrong about that, Mr. Pipp. The fact is he's laughing his ass off. Our country is in chaos right now, everyone hates us more than ever, and we're all too stupid to figure out we're being played like puppets. Everyone talks tough while we watch billions of dollars that could be providing our own citizens with food, shelter, medical attention, etc. going towards bombing caves.

In the mean time, there are a lot of people trying to capitalize on the whole thing selling little "patriotic" trinkets. Insurance is through the roof. Why? Because these patriotic insurance companies still want to maintain their exhorbitant standard of living - they aren't willing to take a hit with the rest of us. Usama is definitely laughing... no doubt about it.

Quote:

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Originally posted by simonm
Like it or not, you and your country are represented by the people you elect into power and their actions reflect on your country.

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Most of us knew he was an idiot. I only know one guy who voted for him. I personally don't think he won the election... I really think it was fixed. If it wasn't, then the people who voted for him are too ashamed to stand up and admit they screwed up. Of course the other option wasn't any better. A whiny, lying, cry baby.

No one that I've ever wanted to be president ever made it past the primaries so I've never actually voted - neither choice was better than the other. In my next life, I'm going to choose the planet I'm born on more carefully. This one sucks.

Everyone please think about this and be honest. Don't just give an idealistic reply... think about it realistically.

Would you want your fate decided by some panel of politically motivated "judges" that know nothing about the facts of the case other than what someone else wants them to think about it?

These judges will be chosen for political reasons... not because of their ability to decide things fairly and impartially. Anyone who goes before one of them will be an "example" and nothing more.

I don't want that for anyone. So in theory it sounds good, but the same countries that let these guys off in the first place will have judges on this panel, right? So they all wash each other's backs at your expense. Maybe you get lucky and you're one of the "merciful" examples. And maybe you're not.

In any case, I think every country has a right to decide for itself if it wants to be a part of it but I don't think it should happen at all.

I don't have all the facts and taking what's being said at face value in this thread, I also don't think the U.S. should be flexing it's muscles about it either. They should either join or not, but that should be the end of it. No threats or anything else are necessary.

? Is that Usama I hear giggling?

Quote:

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Originally posted by cafeenman
In my next life, I'm going to choose the planet I'm born on more carefully. This one sucks.

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I hear Xebon 12 is filled with naked chicks who have no thumbs.

;)

Or was it giant chickens that tear off thumbs...?

Quote:

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Originally posted by crptcblade

I hear Xebon 12 is filled with naked chicks

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Awesome!

Quote:

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who have no thumbs.

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That sucks... or is that the point? ;)

Quote:

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Or was it giant chickens that tear off thumbs...?

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I'll ask my travel agent before making any long term commitments.

Quote:

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Originally posted by cafeenman
That sucks... or is that the point? ;)

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Well, at the very least, the remote would be safe. And for some reason they can swim twice as fast as their pro-thumbular counter-parts. So you be the judge.

:)

Quote:

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Originally posted by crptcblade


Well, at the very least, the remote would be safe. And for some reason they can swim twice as fast as their pro-thumbular counter-parts. So you be the judge.

:)

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On the flip side, I guess "Fetch me a beer, wench!" is out of the question. :(

Quote:

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Originally posted by cafeenman

On the flip side, I guess "Fetch me a beer, wench!" is out of the question. :(

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Hmmm...good point. I suppose they will need to trained to fetch the ale in the manner of the mighty sea lion. I will now consult my local Eskimo beerologist...

Quote:

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Originally posted by crptcblade


Hmmm...good point. I suppose they will need to trained to ...

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Man... if they can actually be trained, that's reason enough to go! Who cares about thumbs anyway?