:)
:)
Hehehehe.. :D:D:D
But then you look at the whole Born Again Christianity thing....
and you just have to wonder if maybe he is real and has a delicious sense of humour and irony, all these fools running around in his name ;)
:D:D:D:D
DON'T start me on the BACs. :mad: They're a bunch of idiots! They think that becoming a bac will get them a place in heaven, then they go and wreck people's lives.Quote:
Originally posted by DragonFly
Hehehehe.. :D:D:D
But then you look at the whole Born Again Christianity thing....
and you just have to wonder if maybe he is real and has a delicious sense of humour and irony, all these fools running around in his name ;)
:D:D:D:D
I have recently developed a variation of the heat seeking missile, it is in fact a SCFSBACTRC
Thats the Stupid Car Fish Seeking Born Again Christian Twatting Rubber Chicken, I am currently testing it in earnest on the streets of london, firing it from my fast moving Subaru at all and any cars bearing the stupid fish sticker......
It also works on the "Jesus Saves" sticker too :D
One of my mates is an ex-born again Christian (He was indoctrinated by his family, but attained free thought when he hit 18). He used to love arguing with the born agains/Jehova's witnesses that came to the door.
He'd pull up a chair and sit in his door way while the poor sods stood out in the rain.
One of his arguments went thus: They believe that only 144,000 "chosen one's" will get into heaven. And of course they belive that they are the chosen one's. But, there are already more than 144,000 Jehova's Witnesses, therefore some aren't going to get through the pearly gates. He reasoned therefore that if he converted he would be being selfish by preventing someone else from entering heaven, therefore he would be good and not convert.
He is the only man I know who is acutally avoided by the god botherers.
Hi SD,
And you know the best part about the 144,000 thing, they call those ones the "annointed" BTW.....
The best part is the "annointed" proclaim themselves to be annointed, there are no qualifications, or distinguishing marks like a ***** on your forehead for example, you just stand up in one of their "kingdom halls" and proclaim your little ass off!!!!!!! And if they think you are godly enough they will accept it, otherwise not....
JW's are IMHO one of the scariest and most dangerous religions on the planet today...
:mad:
Jesus Loves you, everyone else thinks your an arsehole
You can also get rid of JW's by telling them specifically never to call on you again, they then label you as a "DO NOT CALL", if they call again, tell them this and tell them if they do it again you will call the police and have them for trespass e.t.c.....
They won't call again - the thing JW's hate most is bad press....
I know all this cause my ex-girlfriend was one :(
V.V.V.V.V Scary people (can't stress it enough)
Quote:
Originally posted by Ianpbaker
Jesus Loves you, everyone else thinks your an arsehole
LOL:D:D:D:D
Very true in most cases;) :D
I now have all manner of questions, but I suppose I'd better not ask them. This is, after all, a family site... :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally posted by crispin
I know all this cause my ex-girlfriend was one
*gets the rubber chicken missile launcher out.........
[Sean Hughes]
JW: Are you prepared to let God into your home?
SH: Only if you wait outside
[/Sean Hughes] http://www.vbforums.com/
[crappy joke]
Did you hear about the Italian who was asked to be a Jehovah's Witness?
He refused because he didn't see the accident.
ba da dish!
[/crappy joke]
I used to have some JW friends back in high school,
they seemed normal enough, but perhaps they were
non-practicing JW.
Hey, I've not known any BACs but maybe they just hid it from me,
but do BACs have two belly buttons?
I know 2 ppl that were brought up as JW's and both have remarkably similar stories about the severe anguish and ostracization they went thru when they tried to break from the cult. THey even turned family members against them and would treat them like less than dirt. Both are psychologically scarred as a result of this. Oh hold on... JW is a loving caring forgiving religious branch... silly me :p ... oh and whatever happened to their 2000 deathwish?
As one of Jehovah's Witnesses, I'm going to step up and say a few things. First off, I would like to say that I am perfectly capable of individual thought, and I've done LOTS of it.
That isn't a very good argument. While only 144,000 are going to heaven, there is an additional "great crowd, which no man was able to number" that would also be saved. These would either survive armageddon or be brought back to life afterwards if they had already died. Then they would live forever on earth. Those 144,000 in heaven are actually supposed to take on ruling positions.Quote:
Originally posted by SurfDemon
One of his arguments went thus: They believe that only 144,000 "chosen one's" will get into heaven. And of course they belive that they are the chosen one's. But, there are already more than 144,000 Jehova's Witnesses, therefore some aren't going to get through the pearly gates. He reasoned therefore that if he converted he would be being selfish by preventing someone else from entering heaven, therefore he would be good and not convert.
If someone gets baptized, they're basically making a promise to follow God. That's right. It's a conscious decision, not just something done to babies. You even have to answer lots of questions and meet with three different people who need to determine whether you're ready. So if, after having been baptized, someone does something very wrong and isn't sorry about it, he/she will get "disfellowshipped". That's probably the ostracization you're referring to. Note that if someone is sorry about it, he/she might just get "reproved". When you are reproved, they basically just sit down with you and talk about it. But when someone gets disfellowshipped, he/she basically can't mix company (read 1 Corinthians 5:11-13) with other members of the congregation, until he/she gets "reproved". But there should be no hard feelings. and close family members can and should still continue to support the disfellowshipped person.Quote:
Originally posted by beachbum
I know 2 ppl that were brought up as JW's and both have remarkably similar stories about the severe anguish and ostracization they went thru when they tried to break from the cult. THey even turned family members against them and would treat them like less than dirt. Both are psychologically scarred as a result of this. Oh hold on... JW is a loving caring forgiving religious branch... silly me :p ... oh and whatever happened to their 2000 deathwish?
What concerns me is that you said that "THey even turned family members against them and would treat them like less than dirt". My sister is going through this right now, and I continue to treat her fine. She definitely wants to leave, and I respect that, even though I don't like it.
Also, what is this "2000 deathwish"?
See Tygur, you're actually one of the people who can talk intelligently about religion and not turn people off.
The problem with zealots is that even if you agree with them, their fanatacism makes you wish you didn't. You'll do a lot more for your cause by doing what you just did than some other folks who post in this forum who basically set themselves up for ridicule.
Tygur - please discuss:
"Bad associations" or not being able to see your non JW friends if you are a JW (ever)
"open mindedness" Where you will accuse people of being narrow minded to get them to read your literature - then not accept theirs because you know it not to be "The Truth"
"to be disfellowshipped" - and all the shunning that goes along with it
Not being able to marry a non JW.
.......thanks
Or the most important question :
Why you folks keep bothering me at my own doorstep even though I'm not the least interested ?
I told you wally, if they are girls try and hit on them - that'll get rid of them ;)
Or tell em straight out - label me as a DO NOT CALL, and they'll stay away.....
Tygur,
This isn't personal - i'm sure you are a nice guy, but your religion is scary as hell (but I know that hell doesn't exist right ;) )
Who is Jehova and why does he need witnesses ?
Is he accused of phaedophilia ? :rolleyes:
Tygur
Well, from a watch tower panphlet that I read, it did encourage "disfellowship" amoungst family members as well. It described it as some form of tough love.Quote:
What concerns me is that you said that "THey even turned family members against them and would treat them like less than dirt". My sister is going through this right now, and I continue to treat her fine. She definitely wants to leave, and I respect that, even though I don't like it.
However, this seems like some form of emotional blackmail to me. If someone's having doubts about their faith, why should they be emotionally bullied back into the fold? It'll probably just make the hide their feelings.
Simonm,
spot on, my Niece left the cult (and I do mean cult) about 3 years ago, her dad (my brother) has been to visit about 5 times since, and her mother hasn't spoken to her at all, shunning is encouraged in the sect, and I find it abhorrent, I also know another girl who wanted to leave, but didn't because she would have no-one......
I'm glad you mentioned that, Crispin. I am not trying to be a smartass here, but I really fail to see the difference between a cult and a religion. I mean they seem pretty much the same to me.
I guess a cult could be described as a newer form of religion that follows the beliefs of a person or group of persons, whereas a religion is based on supposedly holy writings, I try not to think about it too much, and I know what you mean, theres a grey line between the two.....
Greg Graffin from the band Bad Religion put it something like this:
"if you say you wanna know why the world goes around"
"And you cant find the truth in the things you've found"
"And you're scared shitless cause evil abounds"
"come join us"
JW's prey on the weak and needy, and they're always looking for more stalwart clones throughout the world for their ministry, I see the damage they do first hand, and have zero tolerance with it.
Well, I have to say I find them irritating when they come to my door and I have to say no a half dozen times and eventually close the door in their face. But... the telephone company does the same thing trying to sell me call waiting.
I've only known one JW personally and he was very devout in his beliefs, but he only talked about it when asked and he was a really nice guy. I only know tidbits about the religion itself, so I can't say I know it to be "evil." I just don't like religion in general.
To answer an earlier post, A religion is a cult with more socially acceptable beliefs. What we refer to as religion would be a really really widespread cult....
So, no diff. I agree. :)
I also think religion isn't something that should be imposed upon anyone else in anyway. If religion was something that all of us kept to ourselves (personal beliefs) then a lot of today's problems would be eliminated. For example, you wouldn't have crazed fanatics plowing airplanes into buildings, just because they hold a notion that a certain country is a Devil. :mad:
Quote:
Originally posted by crispin
Tygur - please discuss:
The scripture involved here is 1 Corinthians 15:33, which says "Do not be misled. Bad associations spoil useful habits." The idea here is that if you hang out with the wrong crowd, you will eventually take on their habits and become more like them.Quote:
"Bad associations" or not being able to see your non JW friends if you are a JW
Because any non JW's don't share the same religious interests, spending too much time with them is discouraged, because there is a risk of them rubbing off on you.
I, personally, don't accuse people of being narrow-minded. While it is possible that some can be turning it down because of being narrow-minded, there are other possible reasons too. I just figure that they have their reasons.Quote:
"open mindedness" Where you will accuse people of being narrow minded to get them to read your literature...
I feel that it is a good idea to gain an understanding of what other people believe. It makes it much easier to talk to someone about your religion if you have some knowledge of their own religion, because you can make analogies and illustrations.Quote:
...then not accept theirs because you know it not to be "The Truth"
As far as "knowing it not to be 'The Truth'" goes, I have a stubborn refusal to make assumptions. I don't just blindly believe or disbelieve (is that a word?) something because I was told to. Even teachings from my own religion get heavily scrutinized and researched if they don't look or feel right, and it has happened. So if I come across some information about beliefs of other religions, they naturally get the same amount of scrutiny.
I already explained this in a previous post. Is there something I missed?Quote:
"to be disfellowshipped" - and all the shunning that goes along with it
This is related to the "bad associations" explanation. Marriage is much closer than a simple friendship. Also consult 1 Corinthians 7:39. It commands women to marry "only in the lord". Naturally, this would apply for men as well.Quote:
Not being able to marry a non JW.
I hope my answers were good enough for you. I know I am probably very different from others in my religion. I don't believe that a religion is supposed to be blindly followed. Choosing a religion is a very big decision, and only one (including atheism as a religion) can be the right one, because they all disagree. I believe mine is the right one. Other people have to come to their own conclusion. I am willing to explain my beliefs to others in the hopes that they would join, but the actual decision is theirs, not mine.
Because it is possible that you might change your mind and we don't have ESP, so we gotta come by to find out.Quote:
Originally posted by Wally Pipp
Or the most important question :
Why you folks keep bothering me at my own doorstep even though I'm not the least interested ?
Disfellowshipping is a result of actual wrongdoing without repentance. If someone just wants to leave, they can just simply disappear. Then they simply go "inactive". You're not going to get disfellowshipped for not attending meetings.Quote:
Originally posted by simonm
Tygur
Well, from a watch tower panphlet that I read, it did encourage "disfellowship" amoungst family members as well. It described it as some form of tough love.
However, this seems like some form of emotional blackmail to me. If someone's having doubts about their faith, why should they be emotionally bullied back into the fold? It'll probably just make the hide their feelings.
As far as the disfellowshipping of family members goes, it is my understanding that immediate family members (probably just the ones living in the same household) may still associtate and do whatever. But family members further off are affected.
But the situation can get a little complicated. For example, what if a disfellowshipped grandparent needs caring? I believe it is possible to care for the grandparent. At least it should be.
If someone is having doubts, they are encouraged to do research or consult with an "elder" (basically someone with higher duties in the congregation) to figure things out. Children can also consult with parents when they have doubts.
I once told a JW I was a satanist, thinking it would get rid of him.
The sod took it as a challenge.:(
Wasn't even at my house, I was just answering the door for a friend.:rolleyes:
Sounds a lot like the strong arm tactics that door-to-door salesmen often use as an excuse.Quote:
Originally posted by Tygur
Because it is possible that you might change your mind and we don't have ESP, so we gotta come by to find out.
Perhaps you guys do not understand the meaning of "No"
I don't need your patronising, holier-than-thou, we're-here-to-save-your-soul, bible thumping chums disturbing me on a sunday morning.
You have your religion, don't bother me with it. Simple. Reasonable.
"No", Tygur, means "No", not "I'll think about it" or "I'll let you know later". If it meant the latter I would've said so.
If I'm interested in the JW then I would go to one of your centres to get information, if I'm not I'd appreciate that you leave me alone and refrain from coming around unwanted and bother me with your religious mission.
I've already explained that to a passing party a myriad of times and still they cannot grasp the idea of "No means No" :rolleyes:
what fellow worshipping?? i dont see no fellow worshipping around here...where is he??Quote:
Originally posted by a lot of you
Disfellowshipping
;):D hehehe
It is also possible that you might've moved out and someone else moved in. Things change over time.Quote:
Originally posted by Wally Pipp
Sounds a lot like the strong arm tactics that door-to-door salesmen often use as an excuse.
Perhaps you guys do not understand the meaning of "No"
I don't need your patronising, holier-than-thou, we're-here-to-save-your-soul, bible thumping chums disturbing me on a sunday morning.
Possibly but that doesn't justify their disturbances.Quote:
Originally posted by Tygur
It is also possible that you might've moved out and someone else moved in. Things change over time.
Next one that comes along will risk a fist between his teeth or a ring to the police for stalking.
OK, why do they ignore my "No solicitation" sign? Is it possible that someone moved in and forgot to remove it as well?
There are a lot of problems with that mentality, but Wally has a handle on that part. My part is that I know pretty much what is available in the world. Every once in a while I hear about a new product that I didn't know existed, but I don't need it either. When I want something, I go out and pursue it. I don't need phone solictors calling me 10 times a day, people pounding on my door every hour or internet pop-ups.
In fact, anyone that does any of those things, I make it a point to never do business with them because it's a practice I find reprehensible and don't want to be associated with. If I buy the product, I'm basically saying I condone the behavior.
But I guess you wouldn't do it if it didn't work some of the time, so I suppose no matter what we say, your religion won't change their stance on it.
Tygur
I would just like to pick you up on one point here: athiesm is not a religion. Whilst I can accept that to disbelieve something might be regarded as a belief, there is no religion that goes along with it. There is no ritual, holy book, ceremony or rules. It is just a statement of belief (or dis-belief).Quote:
Choosing a religion is a very big decision, and only one (including atheism as a religion) can be the right one, because they all disagree.
And what is it that Jesus taught everyone? He did not shun the sinful (as did the other self-pious around him) but spent time with them most because they were the ones that needed the attention.Quote:
The scripture involved here is 1 Corinthians 15:33, which says "Do not be misled. Bad associations spoil useful habits." The idea here is that if you hang out with the wrong crowd, you will eventually take on their habits and become more like them.
Yeah, you are right in your assumption that it does work at least some of the time. I don't exactly have much say on the matter, though, so even if you convinced me, it still wouldn't change much.Quote:
Originally posted by cafeenman
But I guess you wouldn't do it if it didn't work some of the time, so I suppose no matter what we say, your religion won't change their stance on it.
Atheism is the absense of religion, just as black is the absense of color.Quote:
Originally posted by simonm
I would just like to pick you up on one point here: athiesm is not a religion. Whilst I can accept that to disbelieve something might be regarded as a belief, there is no religion that goes along with it. There is no ritual, holy book, ceremony or rules. It is just a statement of belief (or dis-belief).
Jesus is the reason why we're preaching all over the place. Disfellowshipping is based on other parts of the bible.Quote:
Originally posted by simonm
And what is it that Jesus taught everyone? He did not shun the sinful (as did the other self-pious around him) but spent time with them most because they were the ones that needed the attention.
So you're cherry picking bits of the bible to suit your beliefs (not necessarilly you but the church).Quote:
Jesus is the reason why we're preaching all over the place. Disfellowshipping is based on other parts of the bible.
Disfellowshipping isn't against Jesus's teachings. It was practiced by his apostles and can be read about, mostly in the writings of Paul. And I fail to see how disfellowshipping benefits the people at the top.Quote:
Originally posted by simonm
So you're cherry picking bits of the bible to suit your beliefs (not necessarilly you but the church).
We are definitely supposed to help those in need. People who get disfellowshipped don't respond well to the guidance offered by the elders. If the person is genuinely repentant, he/she doesn't get disfellowshipped at all and gets helped back in. Disfellowshipping is only a last resort, after everything else has failed.
Maybe they don't respond to their guidance well because they've realised that their guidance is just bollocks.
What kind of 'wrongdoing' have these people done then? At what point does a minor irritation become a grave atrocity?
I think that disfellowship is yet another scare tactic like "Eternal damnation will await you if you don't ... "
Leaving the congregation is all ok as long as you keep on believing in God.
Leaving the congregation because you start to have doubts about the whole thing and/or its modus operandi is for some unfathomable reason a grave sin.
Tygur
But Jesus himself did not condone that sort of behaviour, indeed, he deliberately made time for the "sinners". Disfellowship of shunning goes against the whole philosophy of what Jesus was about. The fact that you feel justified in overiding that because you've found something else in the bible, is cherry picking (in my opinion).Quote:
Disfellowshipping isn't against Jesus's teachings.
And it just seems like emotional bullying and that's just plain bad.
i STILL dont see dis fellow worshipping...where is he??
Sorta like that phone commercial, ehh?Quote:
Originally posted by Tygur
Because it is possible that you might change your mind and we don't have ESP, so we gotta come by to find out.
Knock, Knock, Knock
Err, Hello?
Can I see you now?
No, GoodBye!
Slam!
...the next day...
Knock, Knock, Knock
Err, Hello?
Can I see you now?
No, GoodBye!
Slam!
...the next day...
Knock, Knock, Knock
Err, Hello?
Can I see you now?
No, GoodBye!
Slam!
...the next day...
Knock, Knock, Knock
Err, Hello?
Can I see you now?
No, GoodBye!
Slam!
...the next day...
Knock, Knock, Knock
Err, Hello?
Can I see you now?
No, GoodBye!
Slam!
...ad infinitum...
:D
Basically, it's when you break one of God's commands. In other words, sin. Certain things are worse than others. You can't get disfellowshipped for little things. But bigger things, such as drugs or fornication (sex outside of marriage) can get you in trouble. Keep in mind that if someone does these things and is truly repentant (sorry about it), they will simply get reproved.Quote:
Originally posted by HarryW
Maybe they don't respond to their guidance well because they've realised that their guidance is just bollocks.
What kind of 'wrongdoing' have these people done then? At what point does a minor irritation become a grave atrocity?
What about saying "this religion malarkey... it's all bollocks isn't it? You guys are all just bloody nutters."
Would that count?
I don't think it's really a scare tactic. A scare tactic like that would be bad, because it would scare people away from getting baptized.Quote:
Originally posted by Wally Pipp
I think that disfellowship is yet another scare tactic like "Eternal damnation will await you if you don't ... "
I believe it is actually for the protection of the rest of the congregation. Remember that I said that it was the attitude of the person that determines whether he/she will be reproved or disfellowshipped. So if the person has a bad attitude and mingles in with the rest of the congregation, it could spread. Remember 1 Corinthians 15:33, which I quoted earlier. "Do not be misled. Bad associations spoil useful habits."Quote:
Originally posted by Wally Pipp
Leaving the congregation is all ok as long as you keep on believing in God.
The "grave sin" is breaking off a promise made to God. Baptism is sort of an unwritten contract between you and God, saying that you will always follow him. Break it, and bad things happen, just like with any written legal contract.Quote:
Originally posted by Wally Pipp
Leaving the congregation because you start to have doubts about the whole thing and/or its modus operandi is for some unfathomable reason a grave sin.
Who's to say it's a 'bad attitude'? Maybe it's a good attitude. Ignoring anyone that doesn't agree is just sticking your head in the sand.Quote:
Originally posted by Tygur
if the person has a bad attitude and mingles in with the rest of the congregation, it could spread.
That's what I've found to be true, Harry.
Bad Attitude = different opinion.
I did something similar once. I put on my all white contact lenses left over from a costume party when I saw them coming up my driveway. I proceded to tell them I was satan and started screaming like a klingon from a star trek movie. Totally flipped em out. The little jerkoffs came back later with more of their holly roller buddies. :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally posted by GlenW
I once told a JW I was a satanist, thinking it would get rid of him.
The sod took it as a challenge.:(
Wasn't even at my house, I was just answering the door for a friend.:rolleyes:
If all you want to do is mess with them, then by all means use the contacts and put special-effects axe blades in your head.
But if your ultimate goal is to resolve the problem, then the best thing to do is say "No thank you. I'm not interested." and close the door. Then when they keep pounding on the door, get your shotgun and point it out the window and say "Are you still here?"
I was 13 when I did that. I had to, I bet my little brother a lawn mowing and a car wash that I could make one of them piss themselvs. I lost the bet, but they ran pretty damn fast. I have guard dogs now, I don't have to tell them squat.
how bout throwing the bible at them? :p
ok ok ghostie got u the first time :p but he really should be shipping eh?Quote:
Originally posted by ghost ryder
i STILL dont see dis fellow worshipping...where is he??
Once when the JW came to the door I was super polite and said "No, thanks I am an atheist" To which they responded "oh, I'm so sorry for you" ... pffffttt ... "No", i said..."I am the one sorry for you" :D
Another time I swear this 160 yr old woman came to the door (well she was bloody old anyway) and without saying where she is from she says do you ever worry about air travel considering the complexities of jet engines (this was way before 11/9) ... I was flabergasted... these shock tactics of confusion almost worked but luckily I spotted the Black Watch (ooh Tower I mean :p ) pamphlet and stopped her in her tracks... so, then she offered me the pamphlet and said oh well read this ... I was in the process of closing the door and was gonna take it to hasten it ... but... d'oh... "that'll be $ (i cant remember) " pppftttt yeah right I am gonna pay for something that goes straight to the bin.... I was always left wondering what this woman that could have met Orville and Wilbur knew about the complexities of modern jet engines...
Here is the way I understand it: When Jesus walked the earth, the "mosaic law" was still in effect. This means that they still had to all attend regular festivals, observe the sabbath, etc. Either after Jesus died, or some time thereafter, a "new law covenant" was imposed. This represented many changes. There was no longer just one nation worshipping God. Things like the sabbath were gone. And congregations were formed. The reason why there was no disfellowshipping during Jesus's time is probably because there were no congregations to get disfellowshipped from.Quote:
Originally posted by simonm
Tygur
But Jesus himself did not condone that sort of behaviour, indeed, he deliberately made time for the "sinners". Disfellowship of shunning goes against the whole philosophy of what Jesus was about. The fact that you feel justified in overiding that because you've found something else in the bible, is cherry picking (in my opinion).
And it just seems like emotional bullying and that's just plain bad.
I believe the whole entire bible should be taken into account. If we simply focused on the gospel accounts and threw the rest away, that would be bad. This is not "cherry picking", because nothing is being rejected. These are things Paul (and possibly others) wrote about managing a congregation that never even existed while Jesus was around.
The only thing I can conclude is that these are brainwashing tactics : you do as we (or God) tells you and you'll be in heaven, doubt us or even do as much as giving one note of critique and you're a bad influence. Some people will come and talk to you to change your mind (read : brainwash again). If all else fails you're branded a sinner.Quote:
Originally posted by Tygur
I don't think it's really a scare tactic. A scare tactic like that would be bad, because it would scare people away from getting baptized.
I believe it is actually for the protection of the rest of the congregation. Remember that I said that it was the attitude of the person that determines whether he/she will be reproved or disfellowshipped. So if the person has a bad attitude and mingles in with the rest of the congregation, it could spread. Remember 1 Corinthians 15:33, which I quoted earlier. "Do not be misled. Bad associations spoil useful habits."
The "grave sin" is breaking off a promise made to God. Baptism is sort of an unwritten contract between you and God, saying that you will always follow him. Break it, and bad things happen, just like with any written legal contract.
Good to see you advocate common sense there :rolleyes: