Relatives of the terrorist attack victims...

Hey there. I occasionally go to this this site to check for updates. The author generally has some interesting (to me) opinions, and I get the impression she goes out of her way to avoid being politically correct, perhaps just for the controversy, or perhaps just because she thinks it's all bull****.

Anyway, there are a couple of new articles there this time about the widows and widowers of the Sept 11 attack victims. Apparently (I guess US people will know this, I didn't) there is a considerable amount of cash ready to be handed out to them from some kind of charitable fund (?).

I don't necessarily agree with everything she says (she has plenty of opinions), but it makes for interesting reading I think. At least it will give people here something to argue about ;)

Article 1
Article 2

Whoa.....l want to marry this woman, as long as she's hot of course;)

she's probably 40 and fat.

judging by the site name, I don't think she likes anybody (no, not because of the "B word")

So you don't have anything to say about it other than she's 40 and fat? I don't know about fat but I am pretty sure she's around her 20s.

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Originally posted by The Hobo
she's probably 40

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She'll still be 3 years younger than my wife, then, so that's OK.

Yup

What about me huh......

....Well here in America, we'd like to think the Government is "the people". Do "the people" always make the right decisions? No. I guess all the other countries are the ones making the sound decisions. Maybe we should follow your lead? Wait, how many times did we save Europe from total barbarism?? Oh yeah, twice. How many billions of dollars do we spend rebuilding nations (i.e. France in danger of collapsing in 1956).....hmmm. As long as you're hating the US Government and all, why don't you just sign off the internet....permanently. Because that my friend....byproduct of the US Government. And countless other things people take for granted...Automobiles, Most prescription drugs, COMPUTERS....the list goes on. Not US Government mind you, but very American. It's popular to bash the big guy on the block, but yet you want all good things he provides. Next time you want to say the 3000+ INNOCENT people who "got humiliated in front of the whole school" deserved it, think a little bit and decide: Who's side are you really on?

(yeah, I'll get ripped for this but I'm sick of hearing this sh*t....)

Sibby, I know where you're coming from but you're overreacting. Yeah the US has done a lot for the rest of the world but don't think they haven't done some pretty sh**ty things too. Just like the rest of the world. We've all messed up and the US is no exception, but you have to admit that the US does put itself on a pedestal to some extent and try to preach to the world in terms of what is right and wrong.

I'm not one to complain about the US's actions (in general) because I don't think people in glass houses should be throwing too many stones, but there is a difference between loving your country and refusing to recognise its failures.

Anyway, are people interpreting the articles I posted as anti-American? I'm wondering because that's where the topic of conversation seems to have strayed to.

Oh, and Sibby - I wouldn't bother bring up the world wars. I don't think your opinion on who saved who is shared by that many people. I am guessing, though, that you just said it because you were pissed off.

Sibby

I just love the way that whenever America get's any critisism, we get the "What about all the great things we've done for the world?" routine. How boring.

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Originally Posted bt HarryW
Oh, and Sibby - I wouldn't bother bring up the world wars. I don't think your opinion on who saved who is shared by that many people. I am guessing, though, that you just said it because you were pissed off.

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Yeah, too right! I thank the Russian's for dealing with the Germans in WWII. When we were alone and really needed American help, they left us to it.

well, my point is, I'm just sick of people b*tching about how America is this huge tyrant and how they try and manipulate everything, all the while, sipping their Diet Coke. Of coarse America has done some pretty stupid things....I stated that point earlier. But all in all, if there has to be a superpower, I think America does a pretty good job. Sure I happen to live here, but I would be just as content if it were somebody else running the show, doing the same thing. Can you imagine the kind of world we'd live in if Nazi Germany wasn't defeated.....have them as THE superpower? I can't. People being round up and slaughtered because of their looks and/or beliefs does not appeal to me very well.

I was not trying to accuse anyone of anti-Americanism, but just trying to get you to think. You say, America deserved what it got, in retaliation for it's foreign policy...but in my eyes, when you support what happened you also support WHO did it. That's where I have a problem.

Oh, and AMERICANS founded America. They were just unfortunate enough to live in England. (this is all relative to the time mind you, there's nothing wrong with England now :))

Someday, with many smiling in glee, we will fall. I just hope whomever picks up that torch can put out an equal effort, or maybe even better....

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You say, America deserved what it got, in retaliation for it's foreign policy...but in my eyes, when you support what happened you also support WHO did it. That's where I have a problem.

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I would say that the people who died on Sep 11th did not deserve what happened to them. However, as a country, whilst I wouldn't actually say it deserved an attack, America does need to realise that it can't just prance around doing and saying anything it likes. What Sep 11th showed America (and it's people) is that military supremecy does not make them invulnerable.

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But all in all, if there has to be a superpower, I think America does a pretty good job. Sure I happen to live here, but I would be just as content if it were somebody else running the show, doing the same thing. Can you imagine the kind of world we'd live in if Nazi Germany wasn't defeated.....have them as THE superpower? I can't. People being round up and slaughtered because of their looks and/or beliefs does not appeal to me very well.

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Yeah, and we're just making the most of our right to free speach that we wouldn't have enjoyed under Nazi germany's influence.

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Originally posted by Sibby
sipping their Diet Coke

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diat coak is fa batty boyz

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Oh, and AMERICANS founded America. They were just unfortunate enough to live in England

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dey live'd in englund, dey woz englush, aiii

If i's go live in frarns, I is still engluish

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Originally Posted by Ali G
If i's go live in frarns, I is still engluish

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I thought you were Jamaican? ;)

Wait, Sibby. Who said 'America deserved what it got'? I didn't see that. What was said was that America is reacting in exactly the way that will propagate the situation, that is all. The analogy about the school bully is a harsh one, I think, but it's not entirely inaccurate. The story says that there are some lessons to be learned from this, about what caused it, but the vast majority of the effort is going into the kind of actions which created these terrorists in the first place. Rightly or wrongly, the reason they hate the US is because of just the kind of talk and actions that it is undertaking right now.

You can ask what the alternative is and I am not going to pretend I know the answers. I am just pointing out that perhaps this isn't going to get the results most people seem to anticipate.

I am not bitching about the US (IMO anyway) but I will start if you try an insinuate that you saved the world on your own during the world wars. If you do that, you are belittling the gargantuan effort put into those conflicts by virtually the whole of the rest of the world.

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Originally posted by simonm

I thought you were Jamaican? ;)

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no, dat is whur all me 'erbal remedy comes from.

I is from Staines

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I am not bitching about the US (IMO anyway) but I will start if you try an insinuate that you saved the world on your own during the world wars. If you do that, you are belittling the gargantuan effort put into those conflicts by virtually the whole of the rest of the world.

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Not to mention overstating their own efforts.

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Originally posted by Sibby
Oh, and AMERICANS founded America

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Oh, come one. That's just daft. :rolleyes:

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So, open your wallet, shove the million dollars in there and kindly shut the **** up.

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right the rest of the arcticles was very serious and i actually agreed with most of what it said...but that line...i just ****in cracked up :D:D:D

USA didnt deserve an attack...it needed someone to tell them "hey ****heads, stop actin like ****heads" unfortunatley that message was delivered at the cost of 2,800 lives...and bush is so illiterate he STILL couldnt read what it said

and as was said...it was the russians and the allies (mostly the russians) who closed in and shut down berlin...the only reason america got involved was coz they got attacked and felt they had to retaliate by unleashing something as terrible as an atomic bomb

ive said many times i like AMERICA and (most) AMERICANS...but your government is full of ****...there are other governments (isreal, palestine, UK etc etc) but the USA holds so much stroke they really should be more responsible and fair in their actions.

rant over :)

I don't particularly think they have a responsibility to be any nicer in their actions than any other country because of the power they hold. I don't think that's really what makes a difference. I personally think that they should act in a more responsible way if they are going to tell the rest of use how great and good they are. That's all. Kind of a 'put up or shut up' thing I guess.

Not that I think the US have been generally awful or anything, I just don't think they've behaved any better than anyone else. We're all bastards.

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Yeah, and we're just making the most of our right to free speech that we wouldn't have enjoyed under Nazi germany's influence.

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point taken ;)

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We're all bastards.

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agreed ;) ;)


I agree, the attacks, as brutal as they were, did open the eyes of alot of Americans in the way things are run over here. Many people asking "Why did this happen?", "Why do they hate us so much?". Those people are now finding answers, and in those answer we may see change, hopefully for the better.

Oh yeah, and In no way did I say (or mean) that America was the lone superhero that saved the world. We had our allies in the fight for freedom just like everyone else. Just stating they were a major player. You awaken a sleeping giant....he's gonna knock sh*t up.

As far as the whole "who founded America" thing :), I still believe in my heart it was "Americans". They disagreed with British rule and the restrictions that were put on them. They decided to risk everything and try to make a new life in a new land. They were Americans even before they set foot over here. That's my $0.02 anyway.

Enjoy the freedoms you have and never stop fighting from those who try and take them away. ....now I better start working before they try and take my job away :D

::Sibby::

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Originally posted by Sibby
As far as the whole "who founded America" thing :), I still believe in my heart it was "Americans". They disagreed with British rule and the restrictions that were put on them

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I think that's maybe just the tiniest bit inaccurate... :rolleyes: :p

What is you interpretation ID?

Amerigo Vespusi???? (spelling probably not correct)

but I don't think what's in question is the origin of the name.


I just love eating carrots;)

Check out more details here......
http://earlyamerica.com/earlyamerica...americas_name/

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Originally posted by simonm
Sibby
Yeah, too right! I thank the Russian's for dealing with the Germans in WWII. When we were alone and really needed American help, they left us to it.

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http://www.angelfire.com/ct/ww2europe/stats.html
Read the Stats They will suprise a lot of people. A lot of people from a lot of countries died. No one country is responsible for winning that war. The part that is really freakey is that 80% of russian males born in 1928 died in WWII. Of course most of them died in russia. Watch enemy at the gates(I highly reccomend the first 20 minutes) This is what all of the allies went through and it is disrespectful to bash any one country involved in defeating the axis. If my grandfathers were still around they would give a few of you a good kick in the nutts. One fought for England, and one for The US by the way.

Just a quick thought....

And I'm not pointing the finger at America with this one, as Britain and Europe are just as guilty of this thinking....


... there is a difference between being proud of your nation and being xenophobic (is that the right phobia - dislike for other people). Why is it such a crime to admit that Europeans, Africans etc founded America. In the same way that Europe itself was originally founded by Africans some 40,000 years ago. Do you feel that Americans are somehow superior to other races. I'm only asking because your statements about Americans founding America seems flimsy (and a bit too nationalistic).

We are talking about events that happened hundreds of years ago. I remeber reading up on the USS Constitution (an old American warship from the War of Independence). It was noted that a very large percentage of the crew where actually ex-Royal Navy who had moved to America. Why can't an indiviudal belong to more than one country. I will soon be a Canadian citizen, but I will still be a British citizen and proud of it. My wife will be Canadian and Irish. All regions of the world have things to be very proud of, and things to be ashamed of. Britain probably has more blood on her hands in the last 1,000 years than any nation on earth, but I am still proud to be British.

Where do we stop putting boundries on our loyalties. Am I loyal to Canada, to North America, to the NATO nations vs. the Warsaw Pact, to the whole world.

I worry that the nationalist surge of feeling in the US is creating a more isolated country. People should be proud of the achievements of all humanity, we have far greater enemies than each in the form of Cancer, Heart Disease etc. Shouldn't we be worrying less about our national borders and more about these things?

America is a bully. It bullies Canada constantly in trade agreements. Look at the lumber embargo at present. It's been ruled illegal in trade court four times now. Yet every year America puts a tax on Canadian lumber to try to protect it's own industry (so much for the free trade agreement).

Britain is a bully too. Look at the colonisation of India and Africa. Hardly our proudest moment.

Europe is a huge bully. Anyone trying to bid for work in a large European contract must use 100% European goods etc.

I'm sure Canada would be a bully, but we lack the financial clout.

So thats just my 2cents worth.

But by the way Sibby, this whol "you'd all be speaking German now if it wasn't for us" attitude is one of the reasons why alot of nations don't like Americans. If you read up on your history you will notice a number of things. When the evil forces rose, Britain and other nations could have stayed out (remember Britain declared war on Germany not the other way around) and would still be happy. but they didn't. Millions fought for a better world, while America stood by and did nothing for years. We repelled the German invasion with practically no American help (Battle of Britain sound familiar?), only after America was attacked did they actually join the war. This is not to say that it wasn't appreciated, but be aware, if Germany had conquered Europe (which is actually very unlikely, by all accounts the war would have gone to a stalemate much like the first world war), America was next on their plans. Part of your reason for joining the war was that you couldn't afford to have a huge slumbering enemy in Europe, licking it's wounds and waiting for the time to strike.

By the end of the war after 5 years of fighting, all the huge European superpowers where crippled. America, in joining late did probably the smartest thing it has ever done. It's economy came out stornger than ever. Churchill said at the end of the war "The lights have gone out over Europe and they will not be relit for another hundred years". He was right. Britain is still paying off her war debt to America. But I don't suppose they tell you that do they.

Just like they don't tell you who paid for the American involvement in the Gulf War. Would it surprise you to learn that America spent less money than most of the other coalition forces? That Germany, Japan, Saudia Arabia and Egypt paid for 90% of the cost of deploying the American military? These facts are conveniently overlooked by the American news.

I'm not belittling America's involvements in these wars, just saying check the facts before you start making arrogant staments about how America saved the world....

Rant over.

SD

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Originally posted by Wally Pipp
Those attacks were not thought up in a matter of days, they are the culmination of years of American resentment in the middle east (Palestina, Iran, Iraq etc.) and that is what the Government (mark the word !) often fails to understand. It's not a black and white world, sometimes you need to give diplomacy the benefit of the doubt.

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Diplomacy is the fine art of saying "Nice doggy" while reaching for a stick. And then beating the shit out of him.

I'll bite on the Palestinians(sp?) up to a point. Even for a conservative like me, the Israelis are being royal *****s right now(still can't give them their own state tho...wrong signal to send) but tell me exactly why I should care what some half-assed dictatorship thinks about my country ??

Man oh man, did you read what I said? This is the thrid time I'm reitterating this thing now.....

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Oh yeah, and In no way did I say (or mean) that America was the lone superhero that saved the world.

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Although no one can predict what could have been, you have to admit that the outcome could have been drasically altered had the US not stepped in. That was my point.

Also, I said I belived Americans FOUNDED what we call America....not the British. In that I mean the United States as a coutry, not the continent of North America. I think you're reading too much into what I said, or maybe I just wasn't clear enough. Either way, discussion like this is great.....just wouldn't expect to find it in a VB forum :)

:) I concur. Discussion broadens the mind.

SD

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Originally posted by Wally Pipp


But I was going out with the missus.

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Oooooooo I'd wondered where you got to Mrs Pepper-Pot. Hope you had a lovely time luv. Don't forget you've got LifeBoat duty tomorrow dear, so don't be back too late OK ?

That Bos'n Laidlaw is in charge of that shift and you know what she's like. Bless her!

But right now it's over to BBC3, where there's a penguin on your television.

"How'd he know that, then?"

"Well...... did you pay your TV licence?"

Sibby,
Man, If that was directed at me, I apoligize for the mix up, I was using that quote to prelude the statistic about 80% of russian males born in 1928 died in WWII. ( A fact that is Jaw dropping),
Just imagine well over 29 million(Russia Only) dead in a war to put recent world events into perspective. People here are comparing Apples to School Busses.

You name just happened to be in that quote I used. Not trying to dis you.

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Originally posted by BG
People here are comparing Apples to School Busses.

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Busses with 2 esses means kisses, buses with 1 ess means a vehicle to go to school in, but more than one. If you're kissing in the bus, then I dunno.

Apples are best compared to Oranges most of the time. Unless it's not the best time. I think.

Oranges give me heartburn, I don't even like to talk about them :)

Busses is how we spelled it on the short buss.:eek: ;)

Is this about the terrorists that tried to blow up a bus.....but burnt his lips on the tailpipe?

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Originally posted by Wally Pipp
Oh dear ... why am I not surprised to see you patoooey...

reasons ? 2 towers being destroyed by planes could be considered a reason.

But I was going out with the missus. No time to read your hyperpatriotic talk.
Somehow I think talking certain more important things out with her are a bit more urgent matters at the moment.

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That's a reason to go to war, not care what they think.

The leaders of these countries are deviants who enslave their own populations, and as a result, whatever resentment the "people" may have is irrelevant. Let them direct their anger at the tyrants in their own countries before they waste my time with rants about my country.


PS: Trying to talk your missus into thinking your dick is bigger then it actually is, is a waste of time. Just get her drunk like a real man does.

hehehehehe :cool:

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Originally posted by Patoooey
That's a reason to go to war, not care what they think.

The leaders of these countries are deviants who enslave their own populations, and as a result, whatever resentment the "people" may have is irrelevant. Let them direct their anger at the tyrants in their own countries before they waste my time with rants about my country.

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They're not going to though. They are more concerned with hating the US and The West in general. It can't be irrelevant unless you consider the manifestation of their hatred (which includes terrorist attacks) to be irrelevant.

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Originally posted by HarryW
They're not going to though. They are more concerned with hating the US and The West in general. It can't be irrelevant unless you consider the manifestation of their hatred (which includes terrorist attacks) to be irrelevant.

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Actually, if I'm damned if I do and damed if I don't, then the entire topic is irrelvent. Attacks or not, let the military deal with them.

They get tens or hundreds of billions of dollars each year from oil sales and not only is my country pissed on by everyone because we waste too much gas but also because we don't care about the social or economic condidtions in those countries ???

They have all the money in the world necessary to be healthy and prosperous nations. They don't have this because of the 12th century mentality of the maniacs who control it all.

We can't possibly give them more money(the liberal response to everything) to cure the so-called root cause of their actions - ie. poverty or social injustice, so all we are left with is to respond in a military fashion.

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Originally posted by Wally Pipp
[BAnd patoooey, I'm not going to entertain you anymore in your unthinking arrogance (as outlined above) but I'll tell you this one thing :
Diplomacy is indeed talking with a stick behind the door but, and this is important, that stick will only be needed when all else fails.
But then again, you will not grasp that idea as you tend to mouth Bush and his hawks in the White House.

This is my last address to you and whether you care or not, I will ignore you from further on. Your little PS crack may be funny to you but it sure as hell wasn't for me. It only highlights your boorishness.

Idiot :rolleyes: [/B]

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Geez...if I knew dick size was such a sensitive issue, I'd have mentioned it earlier. LOL

hehehehehehe

No more from you ?? This is me dancing:

http://www.vbforums.com/attachment.php?s=&postid=797645

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Originally posted by Wally Pipp
If you care to read .

This is what I'm talking about. Most of their resentment comes from decades being treated with unthinking arrogance by the

.blah
.blah
.blah

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I'm still dancing....

http://www.vbforums.com/attachment.php?s=&postid=797649

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Originally posted by Wally Pipp
If you care to read .

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You give me something to read that quoted Susan "I hate America" Sontag ??

Please. :rolleyes:

I don't care why someone is blowing up our buildings anymore then I would care why some ******* is kicking my front door in.

If you don't take any interest in the cause of their actions, how do you know that it's just poverty/social injustice/their government/whatever that's causing it?

It like saying you don't care what your neighbour thinks. Maybe he has a shotgun and next time he gets pissed off he'll come round and shoot you. Maybe your dog keeps shitting on his lawn and it makes him very angry. Maybe he's been shouting "you sonofabitch, get your f***ing dog off my f***ing lawn" at you for the last 3 weeks but you just ignore him, because what the hell do you care what he thinks?

One day, your dog turns up dead on your doorstep. You act all surprised and say "what the hell is wrong with you?!? You killed my f***ing dog man!" and feel all victimised and decide to either take a baseball bat round to his doorstep, or get the police on his back or whatever.

The point is, if you don't pay any attention, don't bother acting surprised when something happens.