Another challenge?

Back in my youth, as part of our AI course we had to write a simple tank program. The problem was thus:

There was an imaginary landscape (I can't remember how big, but for the sake of argument we'll say 100x100 grids).

Each programmer is given 10 tanks which are placed randomly on this grid. They each know their x and y co-ordinates and they can each see for 4 squares around them.

Each tank has a limited amount of energy and can do one of the following each round.
Move forward or backwards 1 square (uses energy)
Turn 90 degrees left or right (uses energy)
Fire 1 shot in any direction for up to 6 squares range (uses 10 points of ammo)
Stay still and get a slight energy charge (and 1 point of ammo)

Shells fired take 1 turn to arrive at their destination. i.e. You fire. If there is a tank on your target grid in the next turn then it will be destroyed.

Simple enough rules.

This was done on a mainframe, and the central control program that ran the scenario dumped text files into each persons account. Each persons program would then read this text file (which would contain what their tanks could see and their energy levels) and create an output file which would specify the tanks instructions for the next round.

We each had a max of 10 minutes run time, any program using more than that would be ignored and their tanks would sit there recharging. (I suspect the 10 minute rule was to stop us all hogging the resources).

Now it strikes me that we could do a similar challenge with VB. A central server could e-mail out the text file, we could write AI routines that would compete, and e-mail the responses back.

They were always talking of adding new complexities like walls, scout tanks (fast, but no guns), long range guns (fixed but long range with shells landing 2-3 turns later), bases to defend, damage to tanks (as opposed to being destroyed with one hit), recharging basis etc. Unfortunately it turned out to be a hectic enough challenge with just those simple rules. (110 students with10 tanks each in mass barny!).

About the only thing they did do, was the final all out war, where all the tanks were split into two teams and set to it. More than a few of the AI's though hadn't finished their Freind or Foe procedures and were pretty much taking pot shots at everyone.

Anyone interested in such a challenge?

SD

After our finals, I might have time to do that. :-) Let me know if some more people get together for it.

Cheers,

We'll need to drum up some interest though, and write the hosting program.

SD

C'mon folks. Take up the challenge.

I'll even offer th4e contents of my trouser pockets as a prize,

Er, 2 bits of fluff, a snotty hanky and a $1.25 (Canadian).

SD

Whell, this IS the internet, why not just rewrite your code, and add network support to it...

Sounds like a fun game, i used to play a similar game on my old NES system... ( And honestly, i wouldent mind finding a game like it, or a rom and an emulator of the game)

The game would be a lot faster if you could make it network compatible, and i bet their would be a lot of people posting for the challenge.

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Ph34R
Whell, this IS the internet, why not just rewrite your code, and add network support to it...

---

We could do both! The good thing about e-mail though is that it wouldn't mean that people in diffrent time zone's would have to get up at odd ours to participate. And if everyone is on line, hten the e-mail system could be fairly rapid. Hey, we could even have a human interface, so that people could participate in the matches!

SD

wasn't the point of this to be a sort of AI?
Why would we need a human interface....

Quote:

---

Originally posted by nickwrs
wasn't the point of this to be a sort of AI?
Why would we need a human interface....

---

What better test for AI than to see if it could beat the humans? But it was just a thought, lots to do before we get anywhere near that level.

SD

Okay I see where you are heading with this.. that could be fun.

:-)

I think we should move this thread to the Projects section.

Anybody know how to do this?

SD

This would certainly be very cool!

I already have done something similar, called c++robots, I can't remember the url, but it's cool.

You write a program in c++, include ROBOTS.H and you can use a couple functions from it. Then you e-mail the code to the c++robots server, it compiles it and pits it against other robots.

Something like this? Or do you mean a ongoing thing? In c++robots, every match started as 'new', do you mean some kind of constant, gameworld? Where new players just appear while the old ones are already playing?

Well, it wouldn't be hard to write a server for that... we'll just have to figure out a communications protocol. (e-mail could be good, direct TCP sockets as well)

Gerco.

Ok all you have to do is......wow look at the breasts on that Chick who just walked in:rolleyes:

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Gerco
This would certainly be very cool!

---

I hadn't thought of having a persistant world, but thats a good idea. To start with I was going to have each match start new, but once we have a few AI routines running well in that we could certainly set up an on-going "war" with recharging bases and territory to capture!

I was thinking of transmitting formatted text files back and forth, thatg way people can write their AI routines in any language they want. Hey we could even split the teams up based on that C++ vs VB etc.

Jethro: LOL:D

Cheers,

SD

Ok, now all we need to do is determine a file format and get a server running somewhere...

If you like, you can e-mail me about this, so we can get this going for real..

Who has a server, doesn't matter what kind, Win98/NT or Linux (or any other unix). I can write the server in java, so it'll run on anything.

Gerco.

I'll try and throw together something this week, I've kind of started writing the server side. The beauty of using e-mail is that the server doesn't have to be up 24 hours (although if somebody had such a beast it would be a definite advantage).

I'll post a rough outline of the text file formats tonight, and we can discuss and change it as we go along.

Cheers,

SD

I arranged for a linux server to run the stuff on, it's up 24/7 and on a 10Mbit line...

We can get all the e-mail adresses we need, but we can't generate over 10Gb of data per month... and all of this for abosolutely no charge.

The server specs:
2x Intel Celereon 550Mhz
384Mb Ram
97Gb Hd space

By the way... we should also make the fileformat human readable, so human players can compete as well..

Gerco.

i am pretty good in VB, but i do not understand how this is gonna work! i would love to participate, but i have to know what is goin on first? :confused:

First... we write the server (non-VB?).

Then you guys all write small (VB) programs that read in the textfiles that the server outputs, decide what your tanks will do and generate a commandfile for your tanks.

You then transmit (upload/email/direct TCP) that file to the server, which will then process all command files and send another textfile to all players.

That way, you control your tanks as they drive over a battlefield and shoot at other players...

Gerco.

The file Format will be human readable. For debugging purposes as well.

Thanks for the offer of the server, but I'm thinking that the advantage of having a VB/Windows based server is that players can then run their own battles when they are debugging their AI routines.

Sarlacc: The idea is this (in addition to the first post in this thread).

We'll publish a very simple set of rules and file formats.

Then we'll implement a server to mediate the games.

As a player you write a program in any language you like to read in these text files and to output your instructions for your tanks.

You can run your own instance of the server locally and effectively play with yourself to perfect your AI routines.

When you are ready you can log on to the central server (we will provide code for you to do this), Pick a game that is due to start and then run your AI routine.

We will post demonstration VB code on how to send and receive the required text files (either via E-Mail or FTP or WinSock).

At a designated time the match will start and the server will fire out the initial status reports to each players machine.

The players AI routines will pick up these reports, work out what instructions to send to the tanks and then output these instructions into a text document.

This document will then be sent back to the central server which will process all the comands.

It will then output the next report file and so on... until the match is over (we'll have to decide on win conditions).

The more people we can get involved the better. We should also remember that this is just a way for us all to experiment with AI routines. Lets keep it freindly and informal and not take it too seriously if somebodies AI goes berserk or doesn't work. I'm sure it will happen to all of us on a lot of occasions.

Cheers,

SD

P.S. We also need a good name for it. I would love to call it Wargasm, but thats already been done:p So any ideas folks?

I would love eventually to have a development kit for new participants to download that would have demonstration code in a variety of different languages, and a few ready to run AI routines that people could test their own routines against before going "online".

Other things we could do would be a Leaderboard on the website for matches played, won or lost etc.

Cheers,

SD

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Gerco
First... we write the server (non-VB?).

---

Actually thinking about it, there's nothing to stop us having multiple versions of the server code (Java and VB) as long as they adhere to the same set of game rules. That way it will become easy to run multiple servers and to test the AI at home.

SD

Oh yeah! And we need to send out a complete blow by blow account of the competition to all the participants at the end of each match so they can see how their AI's faired.

We probably need to throw together some tool that will graphically represent each step. This shouldn't be too hard.

SD

P.S. We're still looking for a name for it!

I think just ONE version of the server will do just fine... We only need to write it in java, that runs anywhere...

Perhaps not that fast, but java code is quick, GUI is slow, but who needs GUI for a server?

I hereby volunteer to write a server... FTP access would be preferred... e-mail is possible, but you'll need some way of autimagically writing incoming mail to files.

Gerco.

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Gerco
I think just ONE version of the server will do just fine... We only need to write it in java, that runs anywhere...
I hereby volunteer to write a server

---

Nice One. I'm glad you volunteered to write the server, you have my heartfelt thanks, and I think that it could be the best approach for all the servers.

I still think however that there should be a similar product in a windows exe format that people can use to test their AI. My underlying principle here is that we should have this accessible to as many people as possible.

The local based system will be far simpler than the server based one (it doesn't have to contend with protocols or communications).

Let us know which options are easiest for you (E-Mail,FTP and WinSock) and I'll put together a skeleton vb program that people can use to communicate with the server.

I'll try and post a rough outline of the rules tonight. This will be open to discussion and feel free to comment on them and come up with suggestions (baring in mind that we should keep it fairly simple to start with - you would be surprised as to how complex the AI will get as it is).

Thanks,

SD

P.S. Still open to suggestions for a name.

Before I can write the server, I need a file-format specification...

And I think it will work like this:
- Server starts turn
- Delete output files
- Read command files in a certain dir
- Process command files
- Delete command files
- Output result files
- Wait a period of time (10 minutes, 30 minutes, 24 hours)
- Start over.

How the files get there is irrelevant... but I think FTP will be the best way, it's also VERY easy to do with Win32 API calls, or one of the 1000's of FTP classes out there.

incomplete/late/incorrect/corrupt command files will be ignored and interpreted as a 'stand and recharge' command.

How does that sound?

And I think we need to communicate throuw e-mail about the file format specs... that way we can post the full specs when they're done without cluttering up the forum.

Gerco.

PS. Java can also compile Win32 native .exe programs :)

Rather than deleting the files, i would rather see them archived, they shouldn't be too large, and may provide a usefull recovery system. Additionally we can use them for the final "replay" file so that players can analyse their AI's performance. As for cluttering up the forum, it won't really, and I'd rather have as much external input as possible (i.e. nice and open).

I've thrown together the following as a possible draft for the rules.

-------------
Tanks

When registered:
Each Player is assigned a unique number e.g. 001
Players may have multiple player id's (to test different AI's against each other, but will be limited to one for each proper match)
Each player must assign an e-mail address


Each match:
Each player will be assigned a team (effectively which side you are fighting on. Usually the player will be the only person in the team, but larger battles may involve multiple players split between two or three teams)
Each player will be assigned 1 - 100 tanks. This will usually be 10 tanks, but keep your code open for variations.
Each Tank will be given 1-10 ammunition shells.
Each tank will be given 100 energy points.


Each match will have a unique identifying number (i.e: 467)
The match will start with the host computer sending out initial battle reports.
Every battle report will have a random numeric password, this must be contained in the responding Battle Instructions (to prevent unscrupulous people sending in false instructions)
The host will calculate the next round after all the battle instructions have been received by the host.
(We are all friends here, there's no need to put a time restriction on this unless it starts getting out of hand).
The match will be over when only 1 team remains, or 100 turns have elapsed with no hits on tanks.
If the latter is the case, then the team with the most tanks left wins.
If both sides have equal numbers then it will be declared a draw.

The Battle Reports will take the following format:
Turn: 1
PlayerId: 001
GameId: 4765
Password: 6475642884
Team: 1
Friends: 2,3
AreaWidth: 100
AreaHeight: 100
-----------------------
Tank: 1
Energy: 56
Ammo: 5
Direction: E
X: 57
Y: 92
ScanData:
0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0
0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,5N
0,0,0,0,3E,0,0,0,0
0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0
0,0,0,0,1E,0,0,0,0
0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0
0,1S,0,0,0,0,0,0,0
0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0
0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0
--------------------------------------------
Tank: 2
Energy: 90
Ammo: 9
Direction: N
X: 32
Y: 04
ScanData:
0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0
0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0
0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0
0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0
0,0,0,0,1N,0,0,0,0
0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0
0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,2E
0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0
0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0
-----------------
Tank: 3
Dead
-----------------

etc……….

The PlayerId is fixed and will always represent this player.
GameId is randomly generated at the start of each game, and will remain the same throughout that game.
Password is randomly generated for each battle report. The same number must be passed back with the battle instructions otherwise they will be ignored. (This is to prevent somebody else sending instructions to your tank).
Team identifies which team you have been assigned to.
Friends is a comma separated list of other players PlayerId's who are on the same team as you. This may be blank if you have no allies.
AreaWidth and AreaHeight define the size of the playing area
AreaWidth defines the width of the playing field (from 1 to the AreaWidth)
AreaHeight defines the height of the playing field (from 1 to the AreaHeight)
For each Tank there will be a report separated by dashes.
Tank identifies which of your tanks this report refers to.
Energy is a range from 0-100.
Ammo is a range from 0-10
Direction refers to the direction the tank is pointing. It can be N, S, E or W. With North being up on the grid.
X is the x location on the playing field. With 0,0 being the bottom left.
Y is the y location on the playing field.
The ScanData is the scan of the surrounding 4 squares in each direction.
A value of 0 means that a square is empty
Any other number represents a tank. The number itself represents the playerId of the owner of this tank.
The letter following a tank identifies the direction it is facing.

The battle instructions take the following form:

PlayerId: 001
GameId: 4765
Password: 6475642884
--------------------
Tank: 1
Forward
--------------------
Tank: 2
Reverse
--------------------
Tank: 3
Turn left
--------------------
Tank: 4
Turn right
--------------------
Tank: 5
Fire at 23, 19
--------------------
Tank: 6
Wait

These instructions should be self explanatory.
The instructions do not have to be in order.
If more than one instruction is issued to a tank, then only the first one will be obeyed, all others will be ignored.
Moving takes 6 points of energy.
Turning takes 2 points of energy
Waiting recharges 4 points of energy (up to a maximum of 100) and ammo by 1/10th up to a maximum of 10.
Instructions to dead tanks will be ignored.
Instructions with the wrong password will be ignored.
Any tank not receiving instruction will be assumed to be waiting.
Any attempt to move into a square occupied by another tank will not succeed. (This will not be classed as waiting)
Any attempt to fire more than 6 squares away on either the x or the y plane will not have any impact, but will still deplete your ammo by 1.
Shells take 1 turn to hit.
e.g. Turn 56: Tank 3 fires at 12,87
Turn 57: Shell hits 12,87 (any tank on that square is destroyed)
Any attempt to move out of the play area will not succeed (This will not be classed as waiting)
Any attempt to move or fire when the tank does not have the required ammo or energy will not succeed. (This will not be classed as waiting).

Each team will be processed in random order, thus if you try to move into a grid square, and another player try to move into a grid square, then one of you will succeed and one of you will fail at random.


--------------------------

What does everyone think?

Any thoughts on a name?

Cheers,

SD

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Gerco

How the files get there is irrelevant... but I think FTP will be the best way, it's also VERY easy to do with Win32 API calls, or one of the 1000's of FTP classes out there.

incomplete/late/incorrect/corrupt command files will be ignored and interpreted as a 'stand and recharge' command.

How does that sound?

---

It sounds good to me!

The problem with an ftp only response is that it can be blocked by firewalls. I think we should do both ftp and email. I will write a vb-example that will handle both so that people writing AI can build upon it. At a later date other people can write Java, C++, Delphi examples.

We also need someone to work on a web-site, somebody to do the move analyser and somebody to write some sample AI.;)


SD

I know this may sound stupid but what is AI?
Artificial Intelligence???

Names:
Tank Warrior
Are me
Obliteration
Destructabation

corny! i know!
had to get the ball rolling.

AI = Artificial Intelligence. These guys are mis-using the term here. The whole concept of an AI program is that it learns from it's previous mistakes. There are a couple of AI languages out there, but for the life of me l caren't remember what they are called

syntax something like

color =(red,yellow,blue,green)

product=(boat,car,cat,horse)

You could then go ahead and code the program to learn that a horse can not be yellow. You don't actually say the horse cannot equal yellow, by input output you teach the program the horse cannot be yellow. That's about all l can remember about AI, except this is a very simple example.

SurfDemon is actually taliking about a game enginee which has the rules etc coding into it.

And don't even get me started on the true meaning of "hacker".

Ta Jethro!
I was confused because a relative of mine is heading an AI team and it didn't sound too similar.
You might of heard of it HAL?

Is this a joke or fair go?

Ok since you didn't ask:

Hacker A term os respect among programming circles for some one who has develop a particularly good or eloquent way of solving a computer related problem. Therefore "The Woz" is a hacker. Sorry, am in Apple mode today.

What do you mean joke or fair go?

HAL was the AI computer in 2001, therefore was wondering whether or not this was a joke.

While on the subject am picking another Swans victory this weekend:rolleyes: And good luck to Adelaide, Port, the Eagles, the Dockers, Brisbane, and Geelong.

Also picking the Brumbies to totally demolish those jokes called the Waratahs and the HURRICANES to make it 3 in a row over the Highlanders.

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Jethro
AI = Artificial Intelligence. These guys are mis-using the term here. The whole concept of an AI program is that it learns from it's previous mistakes. There are a couple of AI languages out there, but for the life of me l caren't remember what they are called

---

Errr.... who says we are not talking about a learning program.... you seem to be leaping to huge conclusions here Jethro.

SD

Have never seen 2001! Thats why?
Thats why he probably called it HAL!
He's teachin it to talk!
Already confusing a few "independent consultants"

Adelaide and port play each other!
Port will win!
Dockers will beat Hawthorn i hope!
Eagles yep
Geelong
The roo's
Brisi

As for the AI languages, people think of Lisp as an AI language.

Please don't start to try to demean other people, you might just be surprised as to how much they know.;)

SD

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Beacon
I know this may sound stupid but what is AI?
Artificial Intelligence???

Names:
Tank Warrior
Are me
Obliteration
Destructabation

corny! i know!
had to get the ball rolling.

---

I like it! It's the best we've had so far :p

Thanks,

SD

Ok, your ruleset sounds great! And it not hard to implement either...

The only thing I'd likt to note, is that we won't need to keep the commend files, the server will keep an extensive log of what happens in every turn, that can be used for replaying the entire battle.

If not, we'd have to write something that translates the command file into a replay file, why do that if we can have the server keep a log?

Another thing: The server I was talking about won't be up for -at least- four weeks :( So it'll have to run somewhere else for a while..

The transporting of files is an issue we must talk about... FTP is not ideal, but neither is e-mail.. we mey have to think about something else. Winsock is good as well, but that requires a 24/7 server...

I'll look over the ruleset and start some draft code for a server, if you have any code lying around for that, please send it to me, or post it here, whatever makes you happy.

Your idea about the maximum of outside input is great, we'll keep it in the forum.

Gerco.

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Gerco

The only thing I'd likt to note, is that we won't need to keep the commend files, the server will keep an extensive log of what happens in every turn, that can be used for replaying the entire battle.

If not, we'd have to write something that translates the command file into a replay file, why do that if we can have the server keep a log?

---

That makes a lot of sense. As long as we have some sort of record (a nd a log is perfect) thats all we need:)

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Gerco

Another thing: The server I was talking about won't be up for -at least- four weeks :( So it'll have to run somewhere else for a while..

The transporting of files is an issue we must talk about... FTP is not ideal, but neither is e-mail.. we mey have to think about something else. Winsock is good as well, but that requires a 24/7 server...

---

The server not being ready for 4 weeks is no problem. We can always run it during development on a normal p.c. for testing purposes etc. By the time we have some AI up and running and the website etc. the four weeks will be up.

I agree that the method of transportation needs further discussion. Here are my thoughts:

E-Mail:
For: Can always get through a firewall
Not time dependent
Against: If user has only one e-mail address, then it's going to clutter up their in/out boxes with junk

FTP:
For: Doesn't clutter e-mail in/out boxes
Against: need to set up seperate password protected areas for each player
Need 24/7 site
Might not get through firewalls

WinSock:
For: Doesn't clutter e-mail boxes
Against: Need 24/7 site
Might be problems with firewalls.

It might be worthwhile allowing support for all 3 and seeing which one (or two) works best. Certainly we can easily write a skeleton vb routine for the AI side. Which of these is going to be easiest for you in Java?

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Gerco
I'll look over the ruleset and start some draft code for a server, if you have any code lying around for that, please send it to me, or post it here, whatever makes you happy.

---

I have an outline of tank class which I wil post up this evening.

I need to refine the rules a bit more. Can you see any obvious problems with them?

Thanks for everything :D

SD

Why not use XML format for the files? This way they will be both easily readable by humans and machine?