It does seem that a lot of VBF members does not believe in God's existence and I am curious why.
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It does seem that a lot of VBF members does not believe in God's existence and I am curious why.
There is no physical proof that says only something can be created by god and not by science.
It is a consequence of the way that most programmers' minds are shaped to work.
Can science create something?Quote:
Originally Posted by Nightwalker83
My 1st year high school teacher thought us that creating means making something out of nothing so if someone else can make something out of nothing then I will be baffled.
I was saying that there isn't anything that you can't just say that god is responsible for it but science could also be responsible.Quote:
Originally Posted by dee-u
Most people who believe in God do so because they are brought up in households or even Countries that believe in god and they impress those beliefs on there children.
This certainly applies to organised religions like Christianity, Judaism or Islam anyway. For instance a huge percentage of the population of Israel is Jewish.
I on the other hand was brought up in a family with no belief in God what so ever. I was never told that i either should or should not believe in god and was allowed to make up my own mind.
Being of a technical and scientific persuasion, i like to have some sort of factual proof that something is true. Nobody has ever been able to show me anything that could amount to proof or even evidence that God is real therefore i do not believe in God.
I think part of the problem is this Belief thing. I do not believe in Ghosts, Monsters or Father Christmas either as to believe in them you have to suspend rational thought.
Perhaps those who believe in God tend to not be programmers.
I was brought up in a society where people deeply believe in God. The moment of my birth, I was baptized without being asked for my preference. As I was growing up my parents would take me to church even if I didn't understand what the homily was about as evidenced in family pictures taken after going to church. In my first few years in grade school, a considerable amount of time was spent on religious subjects and I even remember having several Religion notebooks to which I write notes about the martyrs of days gone past. A lot of the school celebrations were centered around Christian beliefs and traditions. The same thing applies during my High School days up until my University days. We were even given the assignment of buying a new bible for class. Anyone who doesn't have the correct version and edition of the bible will be given lesser marks. Basically, I spent 23 years studying and practicing the religion I was brought up in.
All my friends were devout Christians, I even had a high school classmate that become a Nun despite being one of the most popular girls in school.
Then I joined VBF and met a lot of atheists and learned more about reality. Before that, I already felt false because I am not devout and I felt like what I was doing was routine and meaningless. Talking to different people from different beliefs and disbeliefs prompted me to have an open mind and embrace ideas that no devout would ever do.
I believe that Religion is good in that the morals are deeply instilled into people but in the same way it can prevent some form of innovation or improvement. For instance in the Philippines, because of religion, most if not all forms of contraception are shunned. One city even bans any type of contraception. The church teaches people to "Be fruitful and multiply" which to some family means have more and more children. This inevitably leads to overpopulation. Instead of trying to be inventive, the people are stuck at trying to make ends meet to put food on the table. I am not saying Religion is causing these things but it's the followers that most often than not misinterprets the teachings of their religion.
Now I have become tolerant but indifferent. I still believe in core values presented by Religion, but I just don't practice or preach.
I actually find this question quite offensive (and not only because the dreadful grammar, semantics and the lack of a question mark).Quote:
Why are you not a believer of the existence of God
It implies that religion is some sort of "default setting" for human beings. It is not.
Religion cannot be derived from any kind of observation, it must be taught by other people (unless someone's making it up off the top of their heads (see Catholicism)), thus making it an invention of man.
In answer to the question though, the reason I don't have a religion is that I have common sense and logic instead.
What's the worst that going to hapen to me if I don't believe in God? I can't go to hell because I don't believe in that either.
I've got nothing to gain from believing and nothing to lose from not believing.
Because I choose not to ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by dee-u
I believe in God, but only when I want to troll the science forums that are lurking full of angsty teens.
My problem with most religions is that they employ obvious brainwashing. I am immediately turned off when religion is discussed because big red alarms go off in my head sccreaming *DANGER* BRAINWASHING SCAM *DANGER*.
I am not a sheep.
How about everything that surrounds you? How about your breath? Are these things not convincing enough that someone great has made all of them?Quote:
Originally Posted by NeedSomeAnswers
http://eldredpascoe.com/graphics/dobbshead.GIFQuote:
Originally Posted by wossname
Your ideas are intriguing to me and I wish to subscribe to your newsletter.Quote:
Originally Posted by kregg
It was just curiosity that led me to start this thread, no offense meant. It's just that I believe in the existence of God and I was curious as to why many amongst the members here do not believe in His existence.Quote:
Originally Posted by wossname
Even if you don't believe in hell it does not mean you are not going there, I don't think disbelief will mean that it will not come true.Quote:
Originally Posted by wossname
I could believe in god, I could believe in pink elephants.
I dont believe in god because i find that there is no reason not to. I have not chosen to be an atheist "just for the sake of it", I find that science explains things much better than any religion.
I identify myself as Christian.
I grew up in a house where I went to church twice every Sunday. However, it was not until I went out into the real world myself, learned about other religions, that I decided that I really do believe in God. It was a conscious decision I made after years of thought.
I was taken aback a bit when I learned there were so many Atheists on this board. However, when thinking about it, as programmers/computer geeks/etc., we are taught to think logically. And I will admit, for religion, you do have to suspend a good amount of logic to believe in some of the things religious people believe in.
One big example is the birth of Jesus Christ. How, with all the knowledge we have of the human body, can one believe a virgin gave birth to another human being (especially considering artificial insemination was not around back then)? It's just one those stories I believe, because I believe in the power of God.
Different religions has varying doctrines which are opposite one another, as such I will agree that religion will not explain things better but the Bible should, the Bible and science agrees on certain situations like the ones listed here.Quote:
Originally Posted by Atheist
What's your definition of God?Quote:
Originally Posted by dee-u
I'm certain that God exists. I could get into proofs about God's existence but if someone doesn't want to accept them you can't force them to so you have to respect everyone's freedom to believe as they choose to believe.
Here's some food for thought. If you look in your mail box and you see a letter in there you know that someone put the letter in there. If you see a universe that is the result of intelligent design you know that it had a source that was intelligent. Did you or I create this universe. It obviously is the result of a power that is beyond human power.
If you happen upon a television which is made up of many parts put together in such a way that it operates as a television do you say well it was just chance events that brought all those parts together so the tv operates as it does. Consider a human being which is much more complex than any tv. Is it just chance that brought about human life or was it authored by a supreme intelligence capable of much more than any human. I say the latter.
An all poweful being that created everything.Quote:
Originally Posted by capsulecorpjx
Hell only exists in certain traditions. Interestingly, it is easier to conceive of than heavan. Any attempt that I have heard to describe heavan makes it sound like the place would only be desirable if you had been lobotomized or worse. Meanwhile, people can come up with all kinds of interesting descriptions for Hell, and it always sounds more appealing.Quote:
Originally Posted by dee-u
I would be willing to believe in a god, but not any of the ones I have seen in any organized religion (except some eastern belief systems), as they trivialize what has to be an exceedingly complicated situation. Consider that a large array of sensory neurons are fining in your body at every instant. All the sounds that reach your ears are being heard, all the light that hits your eyes is being seen, all the touches are being felt, etc. Yet of this stream of information, you are aware of no more than a very tiny percentage. Something is filtering out the vast majority of the sensory input before it ever reaches your conscious mind. That filter is not without bias, as can be easily demonstrated (like that video of the people passing a basketball around), which constantly colors the way we perceive the world around us. Therefore, our conscious self appears to be the sum of our bias filters, yet it is the conscious self that we most identify with. Most people would get over the loss of a finger or a leg, while they would not get over the loss of their conscious self (such as with Alzheimers or brain damage). Yet that conscious self is nothing but the sum of what the filters pass.
I am working on a robot that has a large number of sensors. Not all of the sensory input will contribute to the goal that the robot has decided on, and some of the input will be counterproductive. The brain modules will need to filter out the input that is deemed not to be constructive. Will it be right? Certainly not all the time. How are we different from that robot in any way other than scale when a person can get in a car accident by texting on a phone? Their brain filtered out information that was vital to the continued existence of the person, and it happened below the level of consciousness. The filters failed. Is there a god behind the robot? Is there a god behind the person?
Is there room for god in this? Yes, but not a simplistic god that requires ritual devotion to the writings and thoughts of other humans who have achieved positions of authority through myriad means. God can't be within our understanding, so all organized devotion can't be meaningful. Worse, organized devotion performed out of fear of punishment (Hell), or with the expectation of reward (heavan) isn't benign by any stretch of the imagination. It is either neutral (just going through the motions) or malevolent.
So I choose to say that if there is a god, and there certainly doesn't need to be, then it will not be a god that conforms to any Judeo-Christian belief system.
The question of the virgin birth is another issue. After all, Mary wasn't a virgin in the original script, because the original script was not written in English, so the characters "virgin" would have been meaningless. A different word was used, which was relevant in the language of the times. What that word was cannot be determined exactly, as the oldest existing version of the bible was written centuries after the fact. However, the word used in some of the earliest known bibles is a word that would mean "unwed" as easily as "virgin". An unwed mother would be no surprise in this age, or any other.
In fact, books such as "The Closing of the Western Mind", which discusses the politics in play in early christianity leading to the creed of Nicea that founds (roughly) most of modern christianity, shows that what we take as accepted doctrine in this age came from ferocious (and often violent) negotiations between competing doctrines. However, the book also makes clear that there is a large amount missing from before Emperor Constantine, partially because christianity was, occasionally, heavily persecuted and not well documented.
The point being: The beliefs of today were not handed down by god, but are the results of bitter and violent fighting between various factions with different interpretations of whatever material they had at hand.
Is he concious? Does he have a human personality? If so why would he?Quote:
Originally Posted by dee-u
Many human motivations have been explained by social and evolutionary behavriologists, specific to our social and biochemistry.
It wouldn't make sense for God's personality or motivations to be like us.
I do believe in the virgin birth of Christ. With God all things are possible. What is impossible for man is not impossible for God. I believe we all have the potential to become like God. Christ taught that we can do what he did. I believe we will all come around to know that God exists after we go through a great enough number of experiences. God wants us all to be happy but He's given us freedom to chooses so if we suffer I say it is because we are living in error to some degree or other. Because we are worshipping false gods to some degree or other.
Im sorry, but that page was a sorry attempt in tweaking ambiguous sentences from an old book in an attempt to make it look as if they are talking about the things we discuss in science today. I'm defenitely not buying it, I mean just because they mention the stars and the sun in the bible does not mean the bible "agrees" with the astronomy we know today.Quote:
Originally Posted by dee-u
What about the times when the church literally murdered (and/or banished them) scientists for discovering things that were against what the church was preaching?
We have a saying here in Sweden which would be translated into english something like: "Turning the coat the way the wind blows", which means you dont stick to a certain standpoint but keep adjusting it in order to make yourself look like less of a fool.
As much as I enjoy discussing things like this ... I understand this particular topic is one where both sides are very...fond of their views. Perhaps we shouldn't debate the topic but rather just answer the original question, to keep it clean!
I agree. I believe in more than a million gods and I don't want any one of them to particulary offended. :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Atheist
An exchange of views is rather welcome as long as no one is being offended. Let it be assured that I respect everyone's belief.Quote:
Originally Posted by Atheist
I just cannot get my mind into a non-believer's thought hence I want to know the reasons of their disbelief that's why I started this thread. I have to say I am not religious nor a Catholic, I haven't got a chance to visit our church for many years but I am a firm believer of the Bible and in the existence of God. This is not a religion thingy, religion does not even save one from getting into hell.
I think god exists but not in the bearded, fear striking sort of way. We as humans are arrogant. We believe that this "creator" has some sort of vested interest in us. Why would he? Intelligent design is another farce that we have made. If there is a divine being it would operate on a vastly larger or smaller scale than we could ever comprehend. If there is a god my feeling is he designed things like chance and random probability not organs and rocks.
Also I echo the sentiments of Shaggy, why would this all powerful entity punish or reward us based on morals that are only contextually human? For instance, think of animals culling the weak for the sake of the herd. If this where to happen in a human society it would be considered morally inconceivable yet we understand that it beneficial in terms of species survival.
Why are you a believer in god?
Can't imagine, or are terrified of, being dead, gone, non-existant? So you think up this idea of life after death. Man created god because they were full of fear, unable to understand so many many things, it was an easy answer to relieve their fear. Or they created him to enstill fear into children to prevent them from doing wrong things because if they did they would burn in hell for eternity. Who knows....
Unfortunately the idea never died and it just kept growing and growing, causing more trouble than it solved.
Sure it sounds great, the idea of life after death, and why wouldn't it!
I believe in the bible. Heck, I've seen one, touched one, and even read a few. Therefore, I feel quite certain that the bible exists.
They all sat down one day for a cup of tea with some crumpets and had forgiven each other, and they all lived happily ever after.Quote:
Originally Posted by Atheist
Believing in Hell doesn't make it real either.Quote:
Even if you don't believe in hell it does not mean you are not going there, I don't think disbelief will mean that it will not come true.
No, And your use of the word someone is interesting too. Most people seem to have a view of God that is very Human like.Quote:
How about everything that surrounds you? How about your breath? Are these things not convincing enough that someone great has made all of them?
I find it very far fetched that any 1 being could have created the universe and all the things in it. Science generally has a much better and more convincing explanation.
Also why do we have so many different religions that contradict each other ? which one is right ? surely if there was a god who wanted us to worship him he would ban all false religions. Then everyone would know where they stand.
Also what about the religions like Hinduism which believes in multiple gods ?
The more i read and experience about organised religions the more i find them disturbing. Also what about people who kill either themselves or others in the name of God. These people really believe that there is a god up there that wants them to kill other humans that God has supposedly created.
Now if i was God and i had created Humanity i would be really pissed off if one of my creations started to take it upon themselves to kill off others in my name !!
lol i'm sorry but how can you use that as 'proof' ? Thats just a story that has no evidence whatsoever, sure a man called Jeesus may have lived at that time but how on earth can anyone be sure that his mother was a virgin? Just because it says in some old book then it must be true? Please...Quote:
Originally Posted by Blakk_Majik
One thing I really do not understand is why the Bible is any different to any other story book. Why did someone pick up the bible and think wow this must all be true, rather than thinking oh look an interesting story that someone has made up.
Exactly, this guy Jesus could have fallen from the sky or he could have been a Spanish drug mule working for the Romans. There is no proof of god what so ever the drug smuggler theory has more proof than it.Quote:
Originally Posted by chris128
I am a heathen infidel unbeliever because I do not feel the need for God to explain any part of the world in which we live.
The fact that I do not know exactly how "it all began" (the infinite descent argument... so what created A? Answer: B. So what created B? Answer: C. So what created C? ... etc) does not mean that I need to provide a God at some point to end the line of questioning. I am happy to say that I don't know, and indeed it makes me want to find out. That's part of the nature of being a scientist, I suppose.
As a caveat, I will say that I have some friends who are both religiously evangelical and scientist; they rationalise both by putting their scientific inquisitiveness down to the need to understand more of God's work.
I also am prepared to accept that some "questions" may not really be questions. For example, "why are we here?" sounds like a reasonable question to ask, but implicit in its construction is the assumption that there is, in fact, a reason why. In my opinion, one might as well ask "Why is blue?", except that that is a clearer example of a non-question.
So I would turn the question around. Ask yourself why, fundamentally why, do you believe in the existance of God and don't be afraid to examine the truths, even if they might be uncomfortable.
Is it simply because you were indoctrinated, ie brought up in a religious environment and it is now as much a part of you as your mother tongue is your first language?
Is it because you are terrified of the consequences, and can't imagine the thought of a point in time where you might simply cease to exist, so you feel the need to imagine that there is a place where you will continue to be?
Is it because you desire the rewards, such as eternal life, or peace, or 72 virgins, or even more crude motivations?
Is it because you find the arguments of the scientific media (and Shaggy Hiker) regarding evolutionary biology and astrophysics to require belief, and therefore feel that they are on an equal footing with your own religious ideas, thereby justifying them? (I would point out that this doesn't actually answer the question of WHY you believe)
I would be interested to hear such self-analysis, if it is undertaken honestly.
Galileo was persecuted by the Catholic Church for what he taught.Quote:
Originally Posted by Atheist
From wikipedia article :
wikipedia article on Galileo GalileiQuote:
On 31 October 1992, Pope John Paul II expressed regret for how the Galileo affair was handled, and officially conceded that the Earth was not stationary, as the result of a study conducted by the Pontifical Council for Culture.[108][109] In March 2008 the Vatican proposed to complete its rehabilitation of Galileo by erecting a statue of him inside the Vatican walls.[110] In December of the same year, during events to mark the 400th anniversary of Galileo's earliest telescopic observations, Pope Benedict XVI praised his contributions to astronomy.
The Catholic Church in a sense apologized for how it treated Galileo. We all make mistakes so I think the churches have a right to make mistakes too.
You have shown no proof. All you've presented is someone claiming to be the result of a virgin birth.Quote:
Originally Posted by EntityX
In all honestly, I think more likely, Joseph and Mary had pre-marital sex, and to cover up for it and save their honor, they claimed that the pregnancy was a miracle.
That or the whole thing was made up after Jesus had followers .
...Well actually, technically it does.Quote:
Even if you don't believe in hell it does not mean you are not going there
If you look at all the main monotheistic doctrines from the past 4000 years or so, they all indicate that the God in question derives his (her?) power from the total number of believers that follow him. If everyone stopped believing in God all at the same time, then that God would cease to exist.
What is less clear though is that if people changed their mind again a minute later and believed again, would the God you get back be the same one that vanished a minute ago or would he be a different (but very similar) one?
Also it seems to me that as soon as you die, your own amount of belief instantly becomes valueless to God or Satan. I came to this conclusion because presumably there are many (say 1000 times) more sinners in Hell than their are holies in Heaven. The sinners would certainly have a very tangible belief in Satan because he's busy torturing them all the time. If that post-mortem belief in Satan and God was actually "counted", then Satan would be 1000 times more powerful than God.
This would lead to a state of affairs where Satan would vanquish God, and bring about a new era where people that worshipped Satan would be regarded as holy and those that worshipped God as evil. A complete 180 degree role reversal. Thus begins an endless, infinite cycle. On average, therefore, God == Satan.
Q.E.D.
Hmm, actually this logic thing isn't all it's cracked up to be.
You know what? Forget it!