VBForums' new heavy .Net hand

I'm far from an insider here so I certainly understand if I missed the meeting on this. ;)

Lately, especially very recently, several of the moderators here seem to have gotten very heavy handed about pushing people toward VB.Net in the Classic VB forum.

Now I won't discourage anyone from moving to .Net, and I myself am amazed by the number of VB6 newbies we're encountering so late in the day. But why has the tone changed so drastically? Is there some other factor involved that I just haven't picked up on?

I can understand people who swim in VB.Net constantly not wanting to go to the trouble of answering questions about VB6. So just don't. What's so hard about that?

Or is it post-Holiday blues? :(


I'm not complaining, just curious. If there is an active anti-VB/VBA policy here now I'd just like to know about it. If nothing else maybe it'll help keep me from from crossing the line. I just need to have some idea where the line is.

I fully agree that VB6 is not a good place for newbies to start today, or for several years now really. But isn't disparagement of one as bad as disparagement of the other?

Or am I just being obtuse? :duck:

I am also a VB6.0 die-hard but common sense should dictate that learning .Net is preferable if one is new since it is the up-to-date technology.

No question there. As I said (or meant to imply) I have no idea why a newcomer would choose VB5 or VB6 anymore.

For that matter I dont care to keep answering "how do I save the text from a TextBox?" questions either. But still, isn't it their choice?

At the same time it can only help them to give them advice about trying VB.Net before committing a lot of effort learning old VB6. Maybe they don't know about VB.Net or something.


I just thought I had spotted a new trend here and was wondering what it was all about.

After 7 years some people are still not aware of dot net existance so imho it's "our job" to point them in the "right" direction.
Face it: like I recently had to say "sadly, but VB6 is past..." and it's a fact whether you hate it or not.

I just wondered if things like those mentioned in:

[2004] Microsoft .NET losing mind-share?
[2005] The Slow Brain Death of VB.NET
[2007] Why is C# taking the lead over VB.NET?
[2008] To C# or VB.NET - That is the Question

... were "getting to" people. Programming in general is down, I don't think VB.Net is a factor in its own slow adoption.

Or maybe we're all just tired and/or bored.

[2004]... Open Source is big and it's getting bigger every day. I confirm that by observing situation in my own town.
[2005-2008] - I actually enjoyed reading it but ... in dot net language became irrelevant since its 2005 release and gap is getting smaller and smaller...Syntax is basically what differs.

What I see in my town [in regards to VB6] is
- plenty of job offers
- all of them are related to legacy systems maintenance
- no new development even promissed
- if you want to be MS developer then Dot Net is the way to go
-otherwise you've to choose between Java or open source...

That's basically it. Really not much, although C# job (or Java) may (but not necessary) get you a little more income.

my experience..
In recent days i got interviewed by middle-level mnc.
they had vb opening.(bt same as above said 'it was only for maintaince of old programs ,no new developement.')

he had asked me one question which i had asked earlier in our forum.. i want to put it here also.
"what is main problem faced by vb developer in recent time.'

from our forum i have got a good link
have a look..http://www.itwriting.com/frozenvb6.php

thanks and regards
ash

I think maybe its a case of moving people on to the language that is newest of the languages. While I am a web developer (learning to be) I have been told to use xhtml rather than the old html. Xhtml has more functionally with the code than html and I am sure its the same between VB 6.0 and VB.Net.

However, I understand where you are coming from in terms sticking to your guns and what you are familiar with. However, ways of doing things change although not always for the better.

I only encourage looking at the .NET side of things if the individual in question is just starting out.

I fail to see any reason at all for a new person to learn VB6 unless they have just been hired to expressly maintain legacy VB6 apps.

Well then maybe it was just misperception on my part. I thought from what I'd been seeing there was some new consensus to take positive action nudging people toward .Net languages.

Not that this would be a bad thing, but it began to sound like a broken record. This led me to wonder if something new had happened that stimulated more militance, or would that be diligence? :D

You probably saw a lot of responses to a lot of new people.

We tend to get them in bunches for some reason that I've never completely understood. :D

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Originally Posted by Hack

You probably saw a lot of responses to a lot of new people.

We tend to get them in bunches for some reason that I've never completely understood. :D

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Probably all from the same University course.

A forum isn't just about giving an answer to a question, it's about guidance. Think of it this way - if someone were to ask you "Do you know where I can get the latest Indiana Jones movie on VHS", you'd probably reply "You're really better off getting a DVD/BluRay player."

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Originally Posted by mendhak

Probably all from the same University course.

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That is a seriously disturbing thought.... that means some one's cirriculum is broken.

-tg

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Originally Posted by mendhak

Probably all from the same University course.

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Probably not, most colleges and universities worldwide tend to have the same starting times for their semesters, which means worldwide those vb6 courses start all at about the same time, so we get those new students at about the same time.

I've noticed this trend in the .net section here and also on another vb.net forum too

I'd say, most do.... but there are technical colleges (like ITT Tech, DeVry, etc) that run courses on a revolving basis and don't follow any traditional school calendars.

-tg

...or any traditional school curriculums.

Congrats on 10K TG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :thumb:

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Originally Posted by JuggaloBrotha

Probably not, most colleges and universities worldwide tend to have the same starting times for their semesters,

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No, it's different in different parts of the world. The "Eternal September" thing is mostly a US phenomenon.

Unfortunately I must work on VB6 and classic ASP systems as typical, day-to-day maintenance (along with new .Net development). Attempting to update / fix COM Objects and deploy them across multiple environments with multiple COM dependencies... well I wouldn't wish that onto anyone so if given the chance I always try to convince folks to move to .Net if they're in VB6 or just starting out with VB6.

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Originally Posted by dilettante

I just wondered if things like those mentioned in:

[2004] Microsoft .NET losing mind-share?
[2005] The Slow Brain Death of VB.NET
[2007] Why is C# taking the lead over VB.NET?
[2008] To C# or VB.NET - That is the Question

... were "getting to" people. Programming in general is down, I don't think VB.Net is a factor in its own slow adoption.

Or maybe we're all just tired and/or bored.

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If C# had never been created then I bet the uptake of VB.NET would have been much higher. C# brought new developers to the MS fold that might otherwise have chosen Java or Delphi perhaps, but it also cannibalised a fair chunk of the existing VB fraternity.

It would be interesting to see where existing VB6 developers would go if they were forced to stop using VB6 right now. Some would take up VB.NET, some because it was the "natural progression" and some for other specific reasons. Some would take up C#. Some would go to non-Microsoft technologies, some for technical reasons and some out of spite. Who knows what the proportions would be.

True, I would like to make a point though. I've noticed many people fear that Microsoft will drop Visual Basic. This is an ill thought out misconception. Many newbies start with visual basic and because of the ease of you Microsoft are grooming young coders for Microsoft technologies. This means they will never drop it, they may change it again but this is natural progression.


Hmmmm, Visual Basic - The gateway drug for young programmers.

If VB6 is still alive and kicking then why on earth would anyone think that VB.NET would be going to die. :ehh:

To suggest the best tool for each job is only natural. But to say use VB6 as its easier or such is counterproductive to both the person s well as the language.

So if someone came out and said "I want to learn BASIC" would everyone tell them to learn VB6 or any other advanced modern day language? :D

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Originally Posted by RobDog888

So if someone came out and said "I want to learn BASIC" would everyone tell them to learn VB6 or any other advanced modern day language? :D

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I would tell them to learn LISP. If they can learn LISP, they can learn any language as far as I'm concerned.

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Originally Posted by RobDog888

So if someone came out and said "I want to learn BASIC" would everyone tell them to learn VB6 or any other advanced modern day language? :D

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If their intention is to produce native software for the general public, I would suggest using Delphi. I would explain to them that the differences between Delphi and a Basic language are so small that choosing the former is definitely worth the effort.

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Originally Posted by RobDog888

If VB6 is still alive and kicking then why on earth would anyone think that VB.NET would be going to die. :ehh:

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I personally expect VB.Net to migrate solely to the DLR, for use in SilverLight and as a replacement for VBA in Office and maybe VBScript in other places. The CLR compiler will just drop by the wayside by a release or two after VBx.

Of course Microsoft doesn't seem as hot on this idea as they were 18 months ago though, so we'll see.

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Originally Posted by RobDog888

So if someone came out and said "I want to learn BASIC" would everyone tell them to learn VB6 or any other advanced modern day language? :D

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VB6 has two substantial shortcomings as a beginner's language today:

• Hard to come by (without stealing it).
• Aging to the point where you need to be aware of many changes in the Windows ecosystem to create viable programs with it.

Neither of these seem to be stopping people, and a lot of BAD efforts are still out there trashing systems and causing DLL Hell today.

VB.Net might be "modern" in a sense (if you consider Java to be "modern") but for a beginner asking about Basic I'd be more tempted to point them toward Small Basic right now.

Don't even get me started on FreeBASIC. I do admire the effort v1ctor put forth and his persistence though. I remember when it was just a baby, though I'm not sure how many others here ever tour the QB community. If you see VB6 programmers as codgers in wheelchairs waving canes in the air or maybe dinosaurs dying slowly... well these guys might seem like cave men or trilobites.

I don't consider Delphi viable for a number of reasons, but especially not for a beginner. Delphi.Net is like poking knitting needles into both eyes, after heating them to cherry red.

And I have nothing in particular against Pascal or Algol style languages.

On the VB6 comment I was relating the suggestion to how suggestions are from VB6 to .NET No I cant say I have recommended anyone to learn VB6 except someone at work where we have dominant VB6 apps as they wanted to get into programming and already work for the company so it would be the easiest way to get into programming.

I disagree with the comment about VB.net. Even if Microsoft did want everyone to use C# they realise that VB.net is there gateway language so I belive it will stay very much where it is.

Which vb.net comment?

Sorry Delettantes first one about VB being downsized.

Oh yes I agree with you. VB.NET is being more promoted and language translations are increasing. Microsoft has finally woken up and is making a new effort with VB.NET.

Downsized? I meant they seemed to be promoting it to a new role when they began talking about VBx (but then got very silent about it).

Where VB.Net might go now is hard to say, but they may have rethought the idea of dropping the CLR compiler a long time ago. Even if they did choose to do it they'd have to phase it out over years to accomodate migration to C#. I think it's a dead issue even if it was ever more than a notion.

I'm no .Net fan but I agree this is a very poor time to be suggesting that new programmers pick up VB6. The exception might be where a job requires it.

Are you saying no .net languages are worth suggesting or just vb.net? Which do you recommend to others?

I think .NET is an amazing paradigm, compare it to trying to learn libraries in even c++. The STL library for instance is a nightmare and that's basic. The only thing I would like to see more of in .net is cross platform support even if it just giving the mono guys a bit of support.

While many argue that there is no need for vb.net because it an c# are the same I disagree. I can write in both Irish and English but I rather English as I can write better understood text. This is the same as VB/C# and I believe Microsoft also realise that language attachment is a big issue. I can read C# fine but I don't have the same "flow" writing c# as I do when I write VB code.

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Originally Posted by RobDog888

Are you saying no .net languages are worth suggesting or just vb.net? Which do you recommend to others?

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It depends on what they want to accomplish. If they're merely curious and want to play around I point them to SmallBasic now. Otherwise I might suggest VB 2008 Express or just send them to http://www.microsoft.com/Express/ which has a "choose by interest" SilverLight applet these days. For example they might be better off with Visual Web Dev Express if that's where their interests lie.

There just isn't a good native code alternative for people to start with anymore. We're left with Delphi which may drive them nuts or C++ which is not what most people are ready to tackle.

The free editions of things make it hard to suggest anything that costs $100 just to start casually experimenting. Of course NSBasic/Desktop is $20 off right now, and it's still a quite viable non-.Net alternative.

Thats because many people what RAD development and RAD development on the metal is not as viable as using a managed framework.

Oh so you do recommend .NET to people. :D I was just wondering if you had a big dislike for .net or ???

If members are not serious about programming then its a toss up between recommending VB6 or VB.NET. If they are wanting to get serious or make a career out of it then I suggest .NET always

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Originally Posted by dilettante

There just isn't a good native code alternative for people to start with anymore. We're left with Delphi which may drive them nuts or C++ which is not what most people are ready to tackle.

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I think this is the second time I have replied to a negative comment of yours on Delphi. I'd just like to let you know that I switched from legacy VB to Delphi a couple of years ago and in less than one month I could produce my first commercial application. I am convinced that Delphi does not drive anybody nuts. On the contrary, the more you use it, the more you fall in love with it.

the more you use [insert language of choice], the more you fall in love with [insert language of choice].

It does take a little more effort with Delphi than it does VB. VB was design to be a RAD tool. Delphi filled a different purpose. Both have their pros and cons... each of which could drive anyone nuts....

-tg

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Originally Posted by techgnome

the more you use [insert language of choice], the more you fall in love with [insert language of choice].

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That's not always true (at least not for me). I've had to use C# for the past 4 years for my career but I still love C++ more; I just never get a chance to use it. Generics make me thankful for templates :).

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Originally Posted by techgnome

VB was designed to be a RAD tool. Delphi filled a different purpose. Both have their pros and cons... each of which could drive anyone nuts....

-tg

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I consider Delphi to be a RAD tool just like VB. Its form designer is organized in the same way as VB and you have to deal exactly with the same development environment made of procedures, events and properties. Why on earth do people believe that Delphi is harder to learn than VB? Believe me, it isn't!

I am probably missing something but could you please tell me what the differences between VB and Delphi are, apart from a slightly different coding syntax? Well, the only significant difference that comes to my mind is the fact that the executable files compiled with Delphi are standalone unlike the VB ones.