Certainly Gen-X happy to point out the fallacies for ya
Ok the commandment Thou shalt not kill is old testament and is meant as a guideline for the Jewish communities hemmed in by hostile forces. Now it should be pointed out that this was principle applying between Jewish community members, and not between Jewish and other tribal groups, which was quite exceptable.
Now when the later day christian faith gained sway in Rome and Europe, they needed a set of codified rules in which to enforce their rule over diverse religons and ethnic groups. Therefore the old testament, which is a mismash of earlier religous thought and teachings, was thrown into the christian bible to boister the notion that the Christain faith wasn't a relatively recent phenemon, and could trace itself back over the centuries.
A very good example of the paradox nature of christian faith, which completely breaks with the concept of leave unto Ceaser what is Ceasars
Lets Widen this can O' Worms
I dont know exactly where in the bible I've read this, but it was definitly Genisis, Plants, animals, excetra are given to man for food, comfort(fur and what not, dont go there), etc. Also the Thou shall not kill, I'm sure that meant in the means of in defence, but then again, isnt it an old proverb to turn the other cheek and what not, maybe in the defence that your own life may be taken, also at the same time, events like the crusades, they killed "in the name of God" as their own justification of what they were doing, of course if you look at history many acts of violence was justified by saying in the name of God, under the certain conditions, unlike animals, Man(for you women, "Human beings") are the only creature that kills in revenge, remorse, pleasure, and for sport. But we still keep the basic intint found in most animals, that will kill for food and for protection. I think the line is drawn at, is it required for the killing, or can the event be resolved peacfully. I Belive later in the new testament, that it becomes a sin to even think about the events, for example, its a sin to think about sex with another woman, even if you havent actually commited it, the jewish(old testment based) belive that it's only a sin if you have actually commited it, I think this would apply to the killing part as well. The bible I dont belive is just a strict book of rules, but it helps set guidelines for most things we may run into in our lives, It contains it's versions of answers for almost every common event in our lives we have to face(well of course you're not going to find something specific like "what if a nuke is going to blow up my city, does that Mean I can kill people, since they are going to die anyways?"). But it also sets an example, I'm positive that humans are not perfect, but the bible for most sets an example for the ideal man, the further off that example, the further off the path of good you go.
Am I just rambeling? hehe :)
Well, you do seem to be trying to gather the facts
The way I understand it, it is as jdavison said, "Thou shalt not murder". In order to come to this conclusion, you have to go to the best original/earlier text you can understand. Try "interlinear" bibles.
Then you have to check the context things are being said/written in the bible. You should expect to find times when the "righteous" did sin (but I'm not saying this was a sin--I didn't research it), but I think these cases were not sins.
While jdavison and I referred to dictionary.com (at some point), unfortunately these resources are suspect as well. Any lawyer or scientist would tell you that evidence is not proof, but dictionaries can imply or explicitly say that evidence is proof.
I think it comes down to, "Learn about it for yourself, because your teachers could be in error".
Although I find bible.com a good resource, you still have to watch out for man's interpretation and doctrine. Get your own interpretation because there may come a time when only you will answer for you.
Read that I said, "MAY COME A TIME" and "YOUR TEACHERS COULD BE IN ERROR", so you don't waste your time saying I'm forcing something down your throat.
God Bless The Seeker.
I have respect for your opinion
I respect your opinion in beliefs in that subject but you come acros as to say my beliefs are completely wrong. That may not be your intent but that how they are and others have shared the same opinion I have about it including the non believers. The fact that you have conisistently refered to us as those people completely stereo typing use from my perspective and you have said many time that you hate those people with an obvious reference to christians. I do feel that most of what you think is proof against the bible is if and simply based on what others have said. I do feel however that the meaning of the bible nomatter the translation is acurate although is you want to have a indepth study you need to translate the actual scriptures themselves. Unfortunately your come across as very anti christian and as a know it all on almost everything from what I have seem in most of your post on this forumm although I do commend your knowledge in the computer field. This is from my perspective and I'm sure other may feel differently depending on what their opinion is on the subject. But you have made many assumption that really can't be backed up. I don't believe you have really sat down and read what is said in the bible fully. now this is how things come across to me and I'm almost positive that you probable think the same about me. The fact is that science can't produce anything that is factual that can disprove the bible. Theories are not fact, they are an explanation that fits with what is known. I accept science and if you think that can produce an answer for everything, that is great, I am happy for your dedication and belieth in it. I have my proof for myself. I wished I could share it with you but that can't be done. You have to find your own if you are to be convinced. Also I have never given any opinion pertaining to this thread. I simply posted the relevent scripture and deffinitions on here to help support the discussion and even though I may not post again, I do pay attention to what goes on afterwards. also, dont assume I have been something when you don't know. I have not been a believer all my life, I have only been saved for 2 years. I have done many other things before then and they definately werent christain. as a matter of fact I despised christianinity and put them down as fools every chance I had. That was the old me. I had done a good bit of research and study here and there the last few year trying to disprove the bible and guess what, I couldn't. Yeah, I may have been able to give reasons not to believe and other answers but no solid proof. That still didn't work but it made a difference later on. Don't take this as saying your at a stage and you will change like you did before cause I'm not saying that. That was me, you are different. Maybe someday you will, maybe not, thats not my call. Also the reason I would like to coninue these discussions through email is its alot easier to answer everybody one on one. one more thing, i respect dvst8 and he completely disagrees with me but atleast he has come across respectful and openminded.
As with every other post I make, If you would like to seriously discuss this, you can email me at [email protected]
If post was "kill <> murder"; Then question answered; REM post misread as usual
The bible can be more difficult to get the initial surface meaning and deeper meanings than these posts, but these posts had the answer "kill <> murder". How much more difficult will it be for you to grasp what the bible is saying?
Surely anyone can see that there are different bible translations out there which obviously introduces human error. Doesn't that tell you that you might want to try to get the best original text that you can understand? If the bible claims to be inerrant, then which version is so? Obviously the first languages it was penned in; Hebrew and Greek.
Here is another "paradox" for those struggling with the "jealous God".
Ephesians 4:26 Be angry but do not sin;
HarryW touched on the matter of will versus free-will: We are commanded to believe, but we are in a state of being spiritually dead.
Romans 9 will probably piss off non-believers and strengthen the faith of believers. (I encourage this type of strengthening in your/our present beliefs--gets us closer to "the end game").
[Edited by VirtuallyVB on 07-20-2000 at 12:22 AM]
I thought you guys had stumpers and paradoxes.
Gen-X
Are you clowning around? I said try to find the best original texts. (Implying "the ones you have access to and can understand"). I don't have a copy, sorry. But an English text surely is not the solution here. I thought you saw this with the French derived word (or some such) which was found in an English text. Someone suggested that you try to find the stone tablets. It looks like you're clowning around.
Which one IS the original text? Of the texts you consider, the newest one is NOT the original.
Where is it located? Not the one you just bought and read from.
How long has it been there? Use the same techniques you use to date anything (they are flawed as well, but it's better than nothing)
How do you verify its authenticity? I've seen data on how Homer's present texts (and others) are less authentic than the bibles present texts when compared with the earliests texts of each.
How do you PROVE it was written 2000 years ago? See "How long has it been there?"
How do you PROVE who wrote it? The human secretary wrote it (and scribes for the translations). Do you struggle with that one? I think the bible says that God penned the stone tablets (But Moses could have taken 40 days to carve them--not to mention the "reprint"--I think I'll look into the timing of the reprint). I think Monty Python was going to introduce 15 commandments, but a tablet broke and he introduced 10. ;)
How do you PROVE "where" it was written? Ask an archaeologist.
Iain17
"The wages of sin is death" I don't have an exact reference for you now. So is the judgement premeditated and therefore wrong? Now you can struggle with your definition of murder. The argument here might be, "When were they told that they would be punished if they sinned?". You're generating alot of required research. The quote I used is New Testament, you'd have to read everything before Noah to see if they were warned in the Old Testament and if the warning was documented (and noting that it was Moses that wrote the O.T. [I believe] who came after Noah). It can probably be argued that you don't need the documentation before Noah to say that they were warned, but I think the documentation is there. Either way, it was written after Noah's time, so now what? In the N.T. it speaks of the law being written on our hearts (Christian and non-Christian) so they most likely knew that they were sinning.
Not trying to insult you - We are definitely on different wavelengths
You say I don't answer you. I say you don't answer me. Apparently we both say that we answer the other. It's almost a given that we arrive at different conclusions in the face of the same evidence. The question here is, "Are we looking at the same evidence?" But even if we are, I think we'll come to opposing conclusions.
In attempting to decipher what you are trying to get at (since my answer didn't satisfy you); do you have an answer to your questions for any old book other than the bible? (Such as Homer's Iliad or Plato writing about Socrates).
It is recorded in the bible in many places that the human author was instructed (or claimed to be instructed) to "write it in a book". The human author (which I have called the secretary) is named, and there is evidence that these author's existed and that the historical rulers existed. Scribes would make copies and hand down the documents to generations. I mentioned that certain present books have been shown to be less accurate than their oldest known texts as compared with the present bible and known older texts.
Obviously a human wrote the bible. I would be more interested in the seemingly consistent style of various books in the bible (which are claimed to have different human authors/secretaries) in comparison to the earliest known texts when trying to understand who wrote it (or dictated it to the secretary--so to speak).
Let me know if you checked out the timeline for Moses to bring down the original tablet and "reprinted/carved" tablets. I didn't check it yet. Even if the reprint took much shorter than the first "printing", the non-believer could claim that Moses wrote two copies in the first place and intentionally broke the first one in public (after the 40 days I think) to give the illusion that the second copy took a shorter time. Oh well. There is a scripture about this generation wanting a sign and that the only sign that will be given is the sign of Jonah. (Which many Christians interpret to be Jesus dying and being resurrected--and even that is not accepted by non-believers).
