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FD,
My statement was solely in response to SH saying something like "does it even matter where it originated", I wasn't disagreeing with anything you said. I also think that SH only said that because he was exasperated with some peoples desperate need to fulfill their evil conspiracy theory.Quote:
I agree and posthumous examination of any disaster always has value. What I was objecting to is the tone that was developing that China is in anyway extraordinary because the virus originated there.
China IS somewhat more likely to have viruses hop over for a couple reasons:
1) It's a large country that extends from colder, northern, climates to southern sub-tropical climates. This means that they have a wide variety of animals.
2) They have a very diverse diet. The US and EU, in comparison, eat pretty homogenous food, especially meat. That means that we are exposed to a reduced range of diseases. This is not necessarily a good thing, but it does appear to be the case.
huge respect to the people who still try to educate. i have given up a while ago and just checking back this forum and some others from time to time but most people are still brain washed as it seems. it's their responsibility to inform themself which is easier than any time before as there is the internet and independent sources.
i mean come on: shaggy saying that vax induced immunity is better than immunity from infection... i'm speachless. commercials truley do work for some people if you repeat them often enough.
The recent opioid crisis did not wake up americans as it seems. and this one is certainly also fake news (or "fake old's" i should better say) oh wait, they have learned and are now truely altruistic.
"Brought to you by Pfizer!"
and the european council is certainly also only working for the people! they have really learned from the "caviar diplomacy"
"With friendly support by Pfizer!"
how blind can one be? we have accepted far to long that corruption was present everywhere. basically we are not surprised anymore to find just another political bribery scandal, right? who says that institutions like WHO, CDC, FDA etc. are as clean as they want you to think?
I said in that other thread a few months ago that down the road you will have to vax several times per year to be allowed to go to school, work etc. does that sound more likely to you now? i read that california will have a mandate for school kids, right? Austria is going berserk with a general mandate, germany will follow soon. you will be required to take 4 jabs a year. i now hear you saying that nobody plans to vax every 3 months - well, wait and see how things unfold ;)
and in the meantime germany is having 20% excess deaths in November that even "experts" having problems to attribute to COVID and they are "puzzling why this is happening" as the media puts it. nobody is talking about the pink elefant in the room. oh wait, thats not true: those pesky consiracy theorists seem to have a clue... but that is fake news!! this should be censored!! people saying such things should be punished hardly for deceiving shee.. ahh, citizens! deceiving righteous citizens!!!
baka, here is one more link for your list: https://www.centerforhealthsecurity.org/event201/about
and dont forget: this is not about right or left wing, either are both corrupt. a political puppet show for the masses.
keep up the good work folks!
Good question. Who does say that? I haven't read anything here that says these agencies are above corruption.Quote:
how blind can one be? we have accepted far to long that corruption was present everywhere. basically we are not surprised anymore to find just another political bribery scandal, right? who says that institutions like WHO, CDC, FDA etc. are as clean as they want you to think?
So you think politicians might be lying to us and news media has bias and are controlled by "them". That many companies are doing there best to profit from the pandemic. Oh my!!!! Thanks for the heads up.Quote:
and dont forget: this is not about right or left wing, either are both corrupt. a political puppet show for the masses.
Considering their population is more than the US and all of Europe combined, it's not surprising to me an outbreak started there. But India isn't far behind so maybe population isn't a major factor. but if I had to guess I'd say it escaped from the lab. I'd be surprised if China would admit it but then again I'd be surprised if the US would admit it if it had originated here.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker
At first, I thought that somebody else had said that, but then I realized you had just misunderstood. If you end up with immunity either way, or even great resistance, then which is better: To have to go through an illness, or to not have to go through an illness? If the outcome is the same, does anybody really think you are better off going through the disease to get there?Quote:
Originally Posted by digitalShaman
And to be clear, I have no idea what the advertising reference is to, but you folks all seem to think that anything that doesn't agree with you must be coming from some kinds of mainstream media. I'm a biologist who works with fish in hatcheries. We deal with diseases and vaccinations on an annual basis and have for...well, probably for decades before I got there. Some fish diseases you know about because the fish look sick. Otherwise you just know about it because the number of fish dying per day starts surging. Sure, we could let the disease rip through the population and weed out a bunch. In fact, there are sound arguments to do so. Instead, we vaccinate the fish so that they don't have the deaths to begin with.
Before that, I had a sufficient background in cell biology in college and graduate school that I understood the chemistry behind how vaccines worked.
So, no, I'm not even sure what advertising you are talking about. I haven't seen it, whatever it was. I just have a work and educational background in the subject.
Just out of curiosity, what do you have?
That gets back to the "massive conspiracy" thing. You gloss over what it would take for that to be true. It would require unheard of competency from people who have never shown that capacity in the past. Why is it assumed that, after bickering and fighting about every little thing for decades, they could all close up and act in exquisite lockstep on this issue? And if you're going to trot out the old "money" answer, I already covered that: Even the gross profits from all the vaccines by all the manufacturers in the word would be orders of magnitudes too small to cover that bill.Quote:
Originally Posted by digitalShaman
My guess is that you don't want to believe that there isn't such a leviathan out there. If there is, then it's somebodies fault. If there is not....that's pretty scary to some people.
Agreed. In California their are folks touting that a correct breathing regime can prevent you contracting it. Still, they've got about as much evidence as Ivermectin does so I'm sure they'll find some buyers.Quote:
this is not about right or left wing
Yeah, I know, I just used your post to jump off from. The conspiracy tone wasn't coming from you but was present in the thread and you just provided a neat starting point for me to address itQuote:
My statement was solely in response to SH saying something like "does it even matter where it originated"
Yes, sadly.Quote:
does anybody really think you are better off going through the disease to get there?
If ich jumps species we'll know who to blame.Quote:
I'm a biologist who works with fish in hatcheries.
Hadn't heard that one. But us Californians are proud of the fact we are the Worlds No.1 Almond producers and we have the nuts to prove it!!!!Quote:
Agreed. In California their are folks touting that a correct breathing regime can prevent you contracting it. Still, they've got about as much evidence as Ivermectin does so I'm sure they'll find some buyers.
Edit: If you think about it, ideas like that shouldn't be surprising. Look at all the different theories just in this thread. How many different people do you think have commented, let's be generous and say 100. There's @ 40 million people in California. You probably have to work really hard to come up with a new idea. Even knowing that, sometimes it makes you shake your head.
The best response to that is: A penny for your thoughts.Quote:
Originally Posted by FunkyDexter
but that might be too insider for anybody to get it.
Just try not to get whirling disease.
Looks like about 45 different people have posted, with a fair number of them contributing a single post.
Wouldn't that be something, Democrats, Republican, Communist, Dictators, Fox News, CNN, NBC, AP, Reuters, ...... all keeping the same secret. Don't think there is enough money in the world to keep them from exposing each other. But some how they manage to put all their differences aside and agree to work together while all the billionaires sit around the campfire, hold hands and sing Kumbaya.Attachment 183307Quote:
That gets back to the "massive conspiracy" thing. You gloss over what it would take for that to be true. It would require unheard of competency from people who have never shown that capacity in the past. Why is it assumed that, after bickering and fighting about every little thing for decades, they could all close up and act in exquisite lockstep on this issue? And if you're going to trot out the old "money" answer, I already covered that: Even the gross profits from all the vaccines by all the manufacturers in the word would be orders of magnitudes too small to cover that bill.
I think Mafia has the more realistic scenario, three people can keep a secret if two of them are dead.
Two billionaires can work together only if each of them is the only one in charge.
Believing that it is "that strict" is naive at best.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker
Underhanded, temporary "price-agreements" (among companies of similar branches) are quite common.
(you see this with Gas-prices all the time).
And across different branches, you can profit just fine from an "obvious run" of your fellow billionaire -
using Stock-futures or Stock-Put-Options (after all you have an entire floor of hired math-geniuses, who will get the timing just right).
Olaf
Still working the "nutcase-angle", I see...Quote:
Originally Posted by FunkyDexter
Olaf
Do you feel that's not nutcase?!
I still wouldn't have enough for a silver dollar.Quote:
A penny for your thoughts
Shaking your head helps prevent covid. Fact!!!Quote:
Even knowing that, sometimes it makes you shake your head
If you want to be taken seriously you're going to need a better source than Russel Brand.
Well a lot of actors and celebrities where rooting in favor of the vaccine and they where listened to and taken seriously.... (Russel Brand is still alive?? :o)
It was for you, not for me.Quote:
Originally Posted by FunkyDexter
But I'm astonished. Aren't you worried about this current global fascism?
Even if you are very pro-vaccination, even if you agree with the purposes of all the measures that your government is taking... aren't you worried about the lost of liberties? Aren't you worried about the lost of free speech (even if you agree very much with what it is allowed to say and are very much against to what is not allowed to say), don't you care?
I'm astonished...
Can't believe that you don't mind, you don't care that people are being censored, silenced... impressive.
I wouldn't make it personal.
Some parts of the world have different reaction to events than others. For example in Greece we tend to overreact , dig up the hatchet, protest kill kill kill but then election comes, we vote for the next party that is even worse but we are fine by that, as long as the previous party exits gracefully.
I'm not sure about UK although I have lived a little over there but I see less press control that what I can see here and note sure about US, I know they don't protest, I can't count the forum as a sample with 5-6 people opinions, of course good all EU, fraking bureaucratic German controlled pile or shlout have shown it's face to other people than Greece, we got a taste with the economic crisis and the memorandums but others where living in a dream cloud, didn't know the dirt, now eat vaccines and deprivation of freedom in your face mothas, so yeah, some are astonished some are not, some they like to get informed some take for granted what the press feeds them, some think that they are informed but they are not.
I think it should draw attention! At least to be a little bit worried. It is not normal, at least suspect a little bit. It does not seem right. Does a disease justify all this? So little was the value of freedom? So little was the value of free speech?Quote:
Originally Posted by sapator
But informed how? It is not easy to get informed right now.Quote:
Originally Posted by sapator
75%... 90%?Quote:
Originally Posted by sapator
Well... of course. We can see that. People that don't doubt. Take for granted something that they read without researching. If they heard or read something more than three times from different sources, then it must be true... :sick:Quote:
Originally Posted by sapator
To make an attempt at answering that...Quote:
Originally Posted by Eduardo-
It basically comes down to the question Shaggy was asking (a few posts ago).
"How can you live with that?"
And I think he was very serious about it... (in, that there's real fear involved).
A whole lot of people just can't live with the bitter reality, that they are:
"un-important... mere puppets in a corrupt, merciless system which gets worse by the minute".
For their own survival (the worse reality gets) - they *need* to cling to anything,
which still offers them "the good-feeling" for their own, continued "peace-of-mind".
Public media-channels to the rescue..., which tell you everyting about, that:
- democracy still works
- public media-channels engage in "true journalism"
- corruption at the highest levels doesn't exist
- and everyone who disagrees with *you*, the "proud owner of the latest 4K-TV-Screen", is either a conspiracist or a nut-case
So, don't ask these people "such inconvenient things" - because there's no point
(their own fear does not allow, to even consider questions which touch on "unfiltered reality").
Olaf
I honestly don't know how people can live their entire lives and not know this. Thankfully where I'm from though it can be a very nice place to live, it's also a very "predator and prey" type of environment and we learn very early here how life really works. You know how many people I know that have been killed by their best friend or even their cousins. You cannot trust anyone out here and the only people who will every truly love you unconditionally are your parents and even then that's not always true. Everyone else is a potential enemy or somebody you can use to get ahead, either by allying with them for mutual benefit or through a more parasitical relationship where you benefit more than they do. The former is better than the latter. The latter can get you killed if you do it to the wrong person.Quote:
Originally Posted by Schmidt
You worry about this one small thing and don't see that it's all of your life. Of course, I don't know how you live your life, but I'd guess that you accept all kinds of limitations. At the most obvious, you don't jump out of high windows, but take the stairs, since you obey the law of gravity. Do you drive at excessive speeds because the government has no right to tell you not to? Do you crap in shopping malls? I could go on with a bunch of other things, but this simple fact is: We all give up some freedom for civilization. We all curb our excesses and our desires to fit into society. For that matter, you have suggested several times that you are fairly devout, but you don't follow all the teachings of the Bible, since several of them would land you in prison in short order. So, you even subordinate your devotion to societal pressure.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eduardo-
So, why is it that you have chosen this as the hill to die on? You can keep me from stoning people. You can restrict my behavior in so many ways...but don't you ask me to try to stop the spread of a highly contagious disease. That's just too far!
Why? Why that? Why are you not out protesting speed limits?
All in all i think we should be grateful that most of us live on parts of the world that you can think "errr, what should i eat today?" or at least get to your public square and scream at your prime ministerrr!!!! Without getting into an torture withing minutes. That of course does not mean that we should just sit quiet and take the trash they are serving us, it means the opposite, because you have some liberties you should try to expand them in order to engulf other miserable people. This seems very exhausting and not many people have the time or knowledge to do so, so they either just protest online or just take for granted the media after a big bad fart, so for the very absolute least I would say put a LOT of thought when election comes and don't vote for idiot traitors. Of course as we know US have only 2 parties of idiot tr...Err I mean of political power so they are well and utterly doomed :eek2: :D but Europe does not and I bet even Niyapolis must have more than 2 parties.
Edit: What's wrong with the paragraphs? I did not put one where it made one....Truly I don't make one but it sliced up 3 paragraphs? Anywhooo.
Exactly, that's (in part) what I was talking about when I mentioned social engineering.Quote:
Originally Posted by Schmidt
You need to make people fear and you have them ready to accept whatever you want.
You can easily manage people with fear.
I have experienced it myself. In the first three months of the pandemic I agreed with almost all what the government was doing here (that was more or the the same that was done all around the globe): lock-down, lost of constitutional liberties, you cannot even go to your sidewalk outside your house.
I had friends that were against the measures, and I argued that they were appropriate, Etc.
Then, after that time, I started to think that that couldn't be right, because people can't live without working for so long.
It is normal to have some fear with the unknown, because you need to be cautious, if this disease is so bad as they said... And the disease is bad, or more or less bad (it had been worse pandemics in the past), but you can't live with fear for so long.
Also, most of the people are vaccinated now, what's the problem? Why they are still infusing so much fear to the people?
I believe that... and now :eek2: that the RNAm vaccines are not good, even if they say they are the best ones (all propaganda).
I took two doses of a vaccine, but one of adenovirus viral vector.
I'm not sure how good or how bad they are in the long term, I expect not to have problems (because all these vaccines are experimental), but I took the chance. I have friends that didn't want to take the vaccines, and I respect 100% their decision. It is fascism to want to force them to do so.
And it is now what they are doing, now in my country the government announced restrictions, things that won't be able to do the non-vaccinated. I am totally against that.
I can't believe that many people are supporting it (people in fear).
There is no argument. The unvaccinated can't do nothing to the vaccinated. If you are vaccinated you are protected.
But the media say they are a risk. How can someone with an I.Q. above 80 believe that?
It is only fear that makes people believe anything.
Well, I don't want to extend more.
Luckily I was against everything from post one, some would argue that I was wrong from post 1 but that just makes a grin on my face.
Yep, as already said, plain fear is causing that decision in a lot of people,Quote:
Originally Posted by Niya
to either obey or "ally with" corrupt criminals.
Do it over a longer time, ... welcome to "Stockholm-Syndrome".
Same thing basically in Shaggys response above:
"So, why is it that you have chosen this as the hill to die on?"
Because he doesn't have any fear of dying (no matter on what hill) -
or at least "doesn't let that fear rule him"...
Plain and simple.
Olaf
What are you talking about? It sounds like a post-apocalyptic movie.Quote:
Originally Posted by Niya
Don't you consider the health care system, hospitals, doctors, nurses, support personnel, being overwhelmed with people refusing to get vaccinated an issue? If I'm vaccinated but cannot get elective surgery because the hospital is full of anti-vaxers then the unvaccinated are doing something to the vaccinated. Early on unvaccinated adults were infecting people that could not get the vaccine. The numbers of people that got sick or died might have been less if the people that could get vaccinated did.Quote:
The unvaccinated can't do nothing to the vaccinated. If you are vaccinated you are protected.
But the media say they are a risk. How can someone with an I.Q. above 80 believe that?
I don't know what things are like where you live but just about every line in that is wrong. No one in this thread matches that description.Quote:
Originally Posted by Schmidt
No one said corruption doesn't exist. But the scope of corruption that some here claim is not possible.
I see no one clinging to "the good feelings" for their peace of mind. Quite the opposite, I see people inventing Boogie Men because they are scared of the realities of life.
So wrong. Fox and CNN are constantly accusing the other trying to destroy democracy.Quote:
Public media-channels to the rescue..., which tell you everyting about, that:
- democracy still works
- public media-channels engage in "true journalism"
- corruption at the highest levels doesn't exist
- and everyone who disagrees with *you*, the "proud owner of the latest 4K-TV-Screen", is either a conspiracist or a nut-case
I know there are people who watch Fox/CNN news and believe them but I don't think that's the case in this thread. I don't watch them except for thing like natural disaster or other things like that but not for social insight. I know SH doesn't own a TV. It really seem like claiming "people believe mass media" (which is lying to them) is always the response when someone doesn't believe your conspiracy theory. I've seen no sign of that in this thread.
and this,
Is childish.Quote:
- and everyone who disagrees with *you*, the "proud owner of the latest 4K-TV-Screen", is either a conspiracist or a nut-case
Small thing? I used to think so at first (please read my response to Olaf).Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker
That's fear I was talking about.Quote:
don't see that it's all of your life
Fear distort things, makes you diminish some things and magnify others.
The big thing is that with the excuse of the pandemic you are losing liberties. Our forefathers have died for them. I mean, in your country Abraham Lincoln, George Washington, Etc
And now you are ready to loose them for the fear of a virus.
How many people died in the past for getting democracy, free speech, but now you don't care, the only important thing is the virus.
I agree that if the options were:
1) Nobody can go out of their homes.
2) Die.
I would agree with 1), but that doesn't seem to be the real case now.
You contibue living, you cannot stop living for a virus, because the time passes, and it passes quite fast.
I know also that the reality there might be quite different from here.
Here there are few infections lately.
But I don't eat more the fear that the media wants to set.
I understand your point and I kind of agree, but the difference is that I don't think that this virus is so dangerous (at least now that we are vaccinated) as they want you to believe.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker
And what about freedom of speech, why someone can't say something about Covid that do no agree with the WHO? (I mean in Youtube, Facebook, Google is also filtering).
Do you justify that?
The science always advanced with discussions, different point of views, challenging things, questioning, never with fascist only thinking.
And even if someone is not taking about science, she/he should be allowed to say whatever he wants and let the listener decide if to believe that or not.
Or should everyone be treated as idiots that need a nanny?
Don't you see that that is very important. Once you lose that, you won't easily get it back.
The excuse is covid, but that is really disturbing.
How they did? With making people to fear.
That's what I'm seeing. Perhaps you don't care because you are thinking only in the virus.
Perhaps you don't understand the Bible so you are reasoning thigs totally wrong.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker
One of the main things that I learned and that apply today is not to have fear.
I'm repeating myself on the topic but that's one of the most important things to practice: do not fear.
Because when the fear enters inside your heart (the most intimate part of your mind), and you enter in panic, when you start to believe that something bad will happen to you: unfortunately you are accepting that to happen to you, and... it happens.
It is normal to have fear when the is danger, as you explained above, but we we need to face and overcome fears.
That's what I'm taking about. This is your fear.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker
No, I'm not planning to die of covid. That's not my idea.
Look, problems there have been always, HIV, other epidemics, you can cross the street and a car can crash you, etc.
This is one more virus.
About myself, I took measures, all the pandemic I kept distance, avoided crowded closed places, etc.
Now it is spring here and there a re few cases. There is always a possibility that I get infected, but OK, I'm not expecting that to happen but if this happens I believe that I'll survive.
And if I die, I have died living, and making what I think is best.
We can't stop living indefinitely because of this virus.
And I also believe, or think that the pandemic is going to an end with this Omicron variant, that all the data that I have so far indicate that it is like a cold and not dangerous, but I expect it to generate a massive immunity against the other dangerous variants (Delta, etc.)
That's how I see it now.
And here is spring, it can help also for having low number of cases (I know you are more compromised in the north).
You are spreading fear, repeating what the mass media is saying.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker
You are helping them for free. That's also things that social engineering know how to produce.
Still not. But let them go ahead and see.Quote:
Originally Posted by sapator
Yep, another one (talking about fears), who likes to view "natural disasters"Quote:
Originally Posted by wes4dbt
(especialy, when they happen to other people - makes one feel "safe, warm and fuzzy" whilst watching, isn't it) ;)
What's your diagonal?
Olaf
What a bizarre thing to say. Claiming I "like" to watch natural disasters. Again, Childish.Quote:
Originally Posted by Schmidt
Being forced to be injected with cutting edge, unproven science juice is a bridge too far for me, and I'm not alone.
I've also never smoked a cigarette in my life, nor done any sort of drugs. I doubt that those of you craving your next booster can say the same.
Officially my last post in this thread, and if I could delete this entire thread I would in a heartbeat. The only thing more infectious than Covid these days is idiocy it seems.
I myself don't feel ashamed that I supported all the lock-down and the "police-state" at first, because, as I said, it was something unknown.Quote:
Originally Posted by sapator
I still think that my position was justified at that time, and if I was wrong, OK, we have the right to be wrong and later change the mind, I think.
Yeah, I'm funky that way.Quote:
Originally Posted by wes4dbt
Olaf