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Funky: they (most of the ones that appear on media) repeat things that other (superior- I mean WHO [I previuosly said OMS but is WHO, OMS is in Spanish], FDA, etc) say.Quote:
Originally Posted by FunkyDexter
Anyway what are the epidemiologists saying? Lockdown, use masks, keep distance, vaccine, etc. Yeah, that's OK.
Not true. The drugs need to be taken in the early stages of the infection. They are less effective the longer you wait.Quote:
Drugs are only needed to cure people to high stages of covid
Yep, I read what you say, you are correct, so we need to calculate the amount produced vs the price. I don't have resources for that.
I didn't give a rats falafel for drugs and such so I was under that impression.
So that will change the subject on who will be giving out 1.000$ drugs to people, how many can be manufactured and who will pay etc.
So in contrast of having a total lockdown to the non vaxbies on everything, we are second on covid deaths in the world ( rate per million)!
The funny thing is that they are "planting" vaccinated to the unvaccinated deaths so instead of 90% of deaths be vaxbies they are 50-50.
Congrats to our prime idiot but no one believe them anymore.
Don'k understand how they came up with those numbers. According to this,
https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/#countries
Your 40th.
My bad, I meant Europe. According to https://ourworldindata.org/covid-deaths we are at no15 word wide and 4-5 in Europe.
Now, Denmark, vaccination rate 86.7%, Omicron strikes, they go buy bye bye and start taking measures. Apparently they know how "effective" is the vaccine? Sweden also introduce restriction.
https://www.politico.eu/article/denm...xtremely-fast/
I'm posting these countries because they are serious not the grand circus that most of our countries here are.
And by your link on weekly deaths per m we are 22 not 40.
So 15th in the world on deaths per m and 3rd in the world on stringency measures and 65-70% vaccinated.
https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/c...ringency-index
Idiots.
No, actually I don't think you should base your information off of any of those...and certainly not off YouTube videos. The papers are out there. Good, thorough, sources will cite the papers. You can then go look at them. For example, there was a recent metanalysis paper on Ivermectin that showed that it DID help against COVID...in places where there was also a high incidence of a certain parasitic worm. Studies done in areas where the parasite is endemic showed a benefit for Ivermectin. Studies done in areas where the parasite isn't endemic showed no benefit for Ivermectin. That's a pretty interesting result. Parasitic worms (though not specifically THIS worm (the name of which I forget)) are known to moderate and regulate immune responses. Some people who die of COVID are not so much dying of the virus, but dying of a hyperactive immune response called a cytokine storm. So, perhaps these parasites have an impact and Ivermectin has an impact on them. It's only coincidental, not definitive.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eduardo-
However, if you are using YouTube or relying on NYT, BBC, and/or CNN, or FOX, or any other TV and radio news, you should keep in mind that those are for people with short attention spans. TV doesn't do stories that aren't visual. They pack the visual in there, too, which squeezes out content. TV news puts the super in superficial treatment of any topic. I don't even have a TV. Radio is a bit better, as they can spend a few more minutes and being an auditory medium rather than a visual medium means they can cover things in slightly greater depth and they can cover non-visual things. COVID is not a visual story. Vaccines are not a visual story. Radio will cover those stories better, but they STILL only devote a few minutes to each story. That's not even enough to cover the abstract of a paper.
I don't really know the NYT. That's print, so it could be better. You can have a few pages on a topic and will cover it better than TV or radio ever could. Whether they do or not, I have no idea. However, if you are not getting your information from reading, and reading articles that cite their sources so that you can check on them, then you are wasting your time....or not, I suppose it depends on how much you want to know.
You never mentioned anything about weekly numbers.Quote:
And by your link on weekly deaths per m we are 22 not 40.
Greece is 40th in over all deaths per million.Quote:
So in contrast of having a total lockdown to the non vaxbies on everything, we are second on covid deaths in the world ( rate per million)!
But if you want to quote the current weekly Deaths Per million. Ok, now your 22nd. Which just makes a stronger case for taking steps to slow the spread of the virus. But it seems to me the real concern should be why has Greece went from 40th to 22nd? That's a significant change. Hopefully it's just spike and the numbers will go back down.
One thing to remember when looking at the weekly death numbers is those deaths started a month ago. My daughter is a critical care nurse, they keep people alive for weeks on ventilators.
Oh I am not naive he will always have his defenders, but this issue is hurting him with a lot of voters it is having an effect.Quote:
I wouldn't count on it. I've got the Vine Show playing in my right ear as I type this and, while the majority of people phoning in are pretty appalled, there are still people phoning in to defend him. Teflon indeed.
No he wont resign based upon the current evidence, but it wont take much more to come out though to make his position untenable. Whether it does or not remains to be seen.Quote:
He should resign but I'm not convinced he will and I'm not convinced he'll lose the next election off the back of this either.
We are to far away from an election to know how this may effect it really, lots of stuff can happen between now and then to swing things either way, but for the first time he is vulnerable.
That was about the time the non vaccinated got a lockdown and the vaxbies run naked to the fields.Quote:
Originally Posted by wes4dbt
It raises some questions for sure.
A buddy of mine just came down with Covid. He is an anti-vaccine person. He is also in his mid sixties and a diabetic. Last I spoke to him he was starting to get sicker. That was Wednesday. I'll catch up with him this morning.
Mid sixties and a diabetic is a bad combination.
We have a famous news person here with almost the same age and diabetes that is in the hospital with covid.
Hope your buddy gets better.
You just exactly described my sister a few months ago. She came through it but it was a tense couple of weeks. I've been disagreeing with her over her antivax position for years but I also know that berating here only entrenches it so I generally adopt the "teasing younger brother" role.Quote:
A buddy of mine just came down with Covid. He is an anti-vaccine person. He is also in his mid sixties and a diabetic. Last I spoke to him he was starting to get sicker. That was Wednesday. I'll catch up with him this morning.
I hope your friend comes through it too.
I wouldna wanna disprove anything as this is for close persons and friends but the thought of you got covid because you did not vaccinate is not true.
The thought of you got covid and you got it bad because you did not vaccinate is debatable.
Again, just an observation and best thoughts on the close persons that have an illness...
...and why do you think that is? I put it down to scientific consensus but you, no doubt, will call it conspiracy.Quote:
Funky: they (most of the ones that appear on media) repeat things that other (superior- I mean WHO [I previuosly said OMS but is WHO, OMS is in Spanish], FDA, etc) say.
Nowadays scientific consensus only cost money.Quote:
Originally Posted by FunkyDexter
Conspiracy? No, "conspiracy" is a word that has been ridiculed by the media. Call it something else (use another word).
It is all about social engineering, nothing else. Masses can be managed, same as animals can. Or devices, because animals and humans are biological "devices". You only need to find out how they work and what you can do with them.
But of course I'm being ill-thought, because we actually live in a wonderful world with all wonderful people (specially the ones in power).
Nobody uses their means and intelligence for selfish purposes and everybody want the good of other people, specially the billionaires (that's why they are philanthropists).
Sleep well (everybody).
I'm not sure but but my sarcasm radar detector just went off the scale :eek:Quote:
Originally Posted by Eduardo-
So all these people worldwide are working together. That's amazing. If only they could do this for the good of mankind and not for evil social engineering. That's so sad. :(Quote:
It is all about social engineering, nothing else. Masses can be managed, same as animals can. Or devices, because animals and humans are biological "devices". You only need to find out how they work and what you can do with them.
There was a doctors Symposium yesterday. In the first hour they did autopsies on vaccinated people died and found "strange" problems and also they saw other issues p.e in the eye next they talk about lockdowns and so and in they end they talk about Myocarditis.
The damn thing is 4 hours long so I just shuffled, I'm against anything that is going on right now anyhow so it wouldn't re- convince me but for anyone anyone interested https://rumble.com/vqj9mh-doctors-fo...g-the-cal.html
The program and such:
https://doctors4covidethics.org/covi...ber-10-2021-2/
How do you even live?Quote:
Originally Posted by Eduardo-
Seriously, you just came up with an argument that you shouldn't ever believe ANYTHING. It goes way beyond cynical. That's a staunch defense of ignorance and nothing but ignorance. Do you really believe that, even if you read all the studies, even if you did all the work, you STILL wouldn't be able to trust anything? After all, any well written paper, which has been through peer review, has laid out their methodology and cited any work it is based on. Sure, it could still be fake, but the methodology is there. You can repeat it. Of course, most people don't have the time or the resources, so they accept that those sources are honest and COULD be repeated. If, instead, you assume that they are dishonest and intended to deceive you....then how do you even live?
That's the fundamental issue. For this to be some conspiracy, it requires tens of thousands of people who have been fighting one another to greater and lesser extents, to suddenly turn as one and close ranks. Biden, Trump, and Xi Jinping locking arms and singing in harmony. Journalists that exposed American mistakes in Afghanistan suddenly teaming up with the military to perpetuate a cover up. Cats and dogs sleeping together. And all for what? What could possibly get so many people to act in harmony and so quickly? Sure, some people suggest that it's the money from the pharmaceutical companies, but that's patently absurd. The total GROSS profits, let alone the net profits, wouldn't be enough to pay for something like this. Even the most exaggerated estimate of profits would be orders of magnitude too low to pay for something like that.Quote:
Originally Posted by wes4dbt
And yet it's what they believe. Even worse, there's VAERS. Here's a government database, run and administered by the US government, which absolutely MUST be in on the conspiracy for it to be possible, and the assumption is that they are vastly more effective and capable than they have ever shown themselves to be in the past....and yet they left that database there and left that easily gameable system open to be gamed without themselves gaming it...or gaming it just enough so that only the tinfoil hat crowd can see it.
Basically, it's easy to be skeptical. That takes very little effort and no particular thought. Once you put together what would actually have to happen for this to be a hoax...you surely can't say that it is with a straight face. You can only call it a hoax by deliberately ignoring all the assumptions that have to be true for it to be a hoax.
Well, Wallmart has like more than 2,200,000 people working together and nobody is amazed.Quote:
Originally Posted by wes4dbt
But if we talk about 10 to 20 billionaires working together yes, people feel amazed (because of course it is totally impossible, I saw that on TV).
I am amazed... but at the level of naivety... and credulity.
Obviously you don't have an idea of what I was talking about.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker
Because on the contrary, I read a lot, and research and study, read papers, etc.
That's just why I can say what I said, and why I can realize when someone is saying something manipulated on untrue.
But if someone wants to be deceived, that's OK with me. Nobody should be forced to anything that she/he does not want. Not to think, to believe, to inject, to anything.
Too long, cut there (sorry, I didn't read the rest).Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker
It is quite easy in fact.
Not everyone is on board. Trump was not, that's why he had all the media against.
Jinping, I don't think so.
Putin, surely either.
They are only a bunch of billionaires who are now coming with the idea of The Great Reset.
Press is easy: just put money and you have it.
The scientific community: cheaper.
The one that doesn't follow the rules is out of the game (and the money).
And now (with the excuse of covid), also censored.
All this is in front of your nose.
u need to be quite naive if u believe that people in power are transparent and without any agenda.
theres "orders" that are invite-only to participate, such as Bilderberg.
we have order society that are also invite-only and closed groups.
in all countries theres those "powerful" family, we have a few here, and one that is controlling the media, theres documentaries about that, if someone is "trying" to say something against "the family" they would freeze you out, that is why some of those family theres almost nothing in the news, as they are controlling the news paper.
we also have governments that help newspaper with tremendous amount of money every year, but only "if" they follow their agenda, making alternative media without funds. this is similar to lobbyism.
well I could go on and on about things like this.
what amaze me is the naiveté of most people, that seems smart, intelligent and all that but fails miserable on this part. really blue eyed and think the world is without people that want control and power.
just watch some documentaries about politicians in the past, about media and people in power, seldom its without corruption. but of course today they are all clean and good?
its still corruption and its stinks.
but media did play good, brainwashed you to believe that everything that is against them is "conspiracy", and thats what u keep saying. another conspiracy, another idiot, instead you should think: what if something he says is true. open you mind people, you are scaring me.
Don't know if you guys are just paranoid are everyone is out to get you. lol
Who believes that, no one I know. But it's a long ways from powerful people having there own selfish agendas to ALL the powerful people, media, churches, governments..... working together. It's never happened. If it has, when???Quote:
u need to be quite naive if u believe that people in power are transparent and without any agenda.
You think people wanting control and power isn't common knowledge?Quote:
what amaze me is the naiveté of most people, that seems smart, intelligent and all that but fails miserable on this part. really blue eyed and think the world is without people that want control and power.
What does that prove?Quote:
theres "orders" that are invite-only to participate, such as Bilderberg.
Again, who are these people who think all the people in power have clean hands? But it is obvious, you are scared.Quote:
but media did play good, brainwashed you to believe that everything that is against them is "conspiracy", and thats what u keep saying. another conspiracy, another idiot, instead you should think: what if something he says is true. open you mind people, you are scaring me.
What secret thing are these people doing, brain control by subliminal message in "welcome to Walmart"Quote:
Well, Wallmart has like more than 2,200,000 people working together and nobody is amazed
It would take a hell of a lot more than 10 or 20 billionaire to control the world. There are over 2,700 billionaires https://worldpopulationreview.com/co...res-by-countryQuote:
But if we talk about 10 to 20 billionaires working together yes, people feel amazed (because of course it is totally impossible, I saw that on TV).
The only reason any of them would work together is if it benefits each. Sure they all want power but how to achieve more power will be different for most of them. Do you think what benefits big pharma also benefits the fossil fuel industry, the solar industry, automobile industry, Microsoft, the media.... What benefits one government also benefits other government.
People are selfish, powerful people use there power to their benefit. That's common knowledge. You guys think you've found some hidden secret, cracked some code. lol
I'm somewhere in the middle.
I don't believe that every billionaire is collaborating to a common cause but I do think some are grouping together but in the end these is no proof for or against, only speculations.
What I can say for Greece is that there are 7-10 "families" that do control the media , do control the government and do control the wealth. If you go by the book you can see the control of media as they own them legit but you can't of course say that they control the government but, if you ask anyone of the 10mil people that reside here 9,900,000 will say that they do. The rest are their "dogs".
Of course Greek government is corrupted to the bone so I wouldn't go an say that an example here is an example for the rest of the world but it is AN example.
On thing tho, the media here have lost their credibility the last 15 years so when they say right it's usually left, so occupying 90% of their news with people should vaccinate or they will die, yeah, that is a clear red light.
Oh yeah? So what DO you read? Trump told his people that the vaccines were great and people should go get them...and they booed him. I didn't know about that until I read about it in this very thread. Since that time, I've heard it, as well. So, yeah, Trump is certainly on board. He pushed for the vaccines, he got vaccinated, and he got booed for pushing them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eduardo-
Actually, both of them. It's been widely reported how difficult it is to see either one. Repeated tests, quarantines, and at least for Putin, some people had to wear hazmat suits (or he did, one or the other). They TOTALLY buy in. What they don't buy into is their own vaccines.Quote:
Jinping, I don't think so.
Putin, surely either.
Still, Putin doesn't care about anybody else. China is still doing harsh lockdowns around any cases.
Yeah? Try it. Not sure what press you listen to, but it's not very good. When it comes to some individual scientists, you're right. Some can be bought. They write weak papers that get published rarely and disputed widely. They are known by the wider community and recognized as what they are.Quote:
Press is easy: just put money and you have it.
The scientific community: cheaper.
Nope. You actually are IN the money. There is LOADS to be made being contrarian on just about any subject. There are people making lots of money on COVID denials. As for the censure, the only ones I've seen being censured are the ones who are saying little of value and saying it poorly, such as that horribly written anti-vaxx paper cited in the democracy thread. People like that self-censor. They write so poorly that they ensure that they won't be taken seriously.Quote:
The one that doesn't follow the rules is out of the game (and the money).
And now (with the excuse of covid), also censored.
One common thread is that the skeptics feel that they have a secret decoder ring and they decide how everybody else was deceived. They decide where we got our information and then get outraged at something that they made up.
Usually the truth is something we will know in the future. We will be dead so there’s no way to get to the truth before that if not something extraordinary happens. I can only say that I rather be critical to people that usually are lying all the time instead of believing in them now when there’s way to gain from this pandemic. They take huge loans, add new laws when we are distracted by this pandemic. While u believe in them your own democratic freedom is changing to the worse. Censorship, woke, the right to move around, your body etc are now limited and there’s no evidence it’s helping. But go ahead maybe u want to be controlled, at least u don’t need to think yourself.
I don't get why Shaggy says that press cannot be bought.
Isn't large tycoons in US and UK own the press? Whatshisname, Murdoch wasn't there a scandal there?
There is no doubt that you can have the press or a large part of the press if you like, the doubt is what you will do with it.
There's lots of things we will probably never know the truth about. But that doesn't mean everything is a lie. If you want to be critical then base it on evidence, not on a concept like "those people always lie".Quote:
Usually the truth is something we will know in the future. We will be dead so there’s no way to get to the truth before that if not something extraordinary happens.
Who is "them" and what makes you think I believe "them"??? Because I don't run around screaming "the sky is falling"? There is nothing new with businesses taking advantage of the current situation like the pandemic. I can't think of a time when they didn't. Doesn't mean the world is crumbling.Quote:
While u believe in them your own democratic freedom is changing to the worse. Censorship, woke, the right to move around, your body etc are now limited and there’s no evidence it’s helping. But go ahead maybe u want to be controlled, at least u don’t need to think yourself.
It's getting harder and harder to divine the entrails of the media.
Omicron is an emergency, omicron is our way out of the pandemic, omicron is nothing, omicron is...
https://youtu.be/XteixwzvNtc
So many conflicting messages, often from the same sources.
I'm pretty sure that the further you get past an event the easier it is manipulate the "truth" about it. Just look at how many fools accept the notion that the Moon landings were faked today. Almost as many as think UFOs are evidence of secretive alien visitors either acting on behalf of some diety or in collusion with some cabal here on Earth that is at war with another one.Quote:
Originally Posted by baka
Some can. "The Press" is a large and diverse body. Mainstream media is corporate and will follow corporate dictates, whatever those happen to be. Those corporations can be at each others throats and often are. After all, with fat wallets come fat egos. That makes it very hard to buy ALL the mainstream media. It's easy to buy one side or the other, but to buy both sides is asking a bit much. And then there are the non-mainstream media. Some of those are corporate as well. They dance to their own tune, though. If you have to buy both sides of the mainstream media AND the non-mainstream media....that's too much.Quote:
Originally Posted by sapator
Remember, those people aren't smarter than you. They are richer, but not smarter. I grew up hanging out in legislatures while my mother was working on her dissertation research, then holding elected office (the research was a bit TOO engrossing). It was a while back, but two of the first people who had to resign in disgrace from the senior Bush's (H. W.) cabinet were people I knew. They're just people, though. There are no super villains. There are just people, with all the foibles, weaknesses, strengths, and intelligence of the average person. If it is large enough, you can be certain that what looks like a conspiracy is an accident.
There is an old saying that you should never attribute to malign intent that which can be attributed to incompetence. The same can be said of conspiracies. Everybody is just stumbling along and the world we get is the result of that. If you don't like the way it is going, it's just because there are more people stumbling in a direction that you don't like. It's not a conspiracy, you're just on the wrong side.
EDIT: People WANT there to be meaning. They WANT there to be a conspiracy so that they can rail against it. Heck, they might even be able to WIN if there is a conspiracy. There isn't, though. It's just a bunch of people doing what people do.
Yes that I understand. You just did not explain it enough the first time.
As for conspiracies goes, we had this conversation some pages back with, someone, can't recall now. If there is not sufficient incidence then you can only suspect a conspiracy.
As far as covid goes what is my understanding and of course I might be wrong but some things have been proven, is that. China was making a virus with US funding's, that has been admitted by Fauci used his institution for funding ,as the pressure for jail time was closing in, now they either let it go deliberately or by accident and we have what we have and from the way the medical companies behave, they try to get as much profit as they can and as our esteemed colleague dilettante show, even if they don't know what omicron is yet, they will have a 3 dose vaccine coming up and even if a fraction of what I posted in no3822 is true, they don't really care if it's effective or killing people.
So this far all seem normal, the behavior of Fauci and the medical companies, what we can insert as a conspiracy would be why US was making the virus in the China lab, that, we can only suspect as there is no evidence ,is because...... ?
I think the reason for that is simply uncertainty. The scientific community are actually quite explicit about stating that uncertainty but by the time it's been filtered through the media and our own latent desire for simple messaging what we get is a set of conflicting certainties.Quote:
Omicron is an emergency, omicron is our way out of the pandemic, omicron is nothing, omicron is...
I'm not buying into the illuminati nonsense above but I do think it's worth considering the distorting effect commercialism has on the media. The media does not, on the whole, exist to inform, it exists to make money. So if it bleeds it leads, if it's divisive it leads and we tend not to get presented with deep analysis.
As for the rest of the conspiracy stuff, I think Wes pretty much nailed it:-
Quote:
it's a long ways from powerful people having there own selfish agendas to ALL the powerful people, media, churches, governments..... working together.
I'd like to see some evidence of this. At first, I felt that there was little chance that COVID escaped from a lab. Now, I agree with the report from the US intelligence services that state that it can't be ruled out, but it isn't clear what happened. The bit about it being funded by the US is disingenuous, at best. Yes, we have funded a search for viruses and pathogens around the world, and we should. Even if this one was released from a lab, whether or not it was created in that lab, there have been....pretty nearly every disease in history, that have jumped from other animals into humans. So, we SHOULD be looking for any that are also likely to do this. Therefore, it is entirely right that we fund groups studying diseases.Quote:
Originally Posted by sapator
Now, was there something special about COVID? Did it come from a lab? That isn't clear, but the Chinese are sure acting pretty suspicious about this. I would say that they have something to hide, except that, quite honestly, the Chinese have been acting pretty suspicious about things that aren't that big a deal, so this might be simple Chinese *****liness/paranoia. I think it would be instructive to know where the virus came from, though we have to keep in mind that diseases are always hopping between species, so even if this was deliberate that doesn't mean the next one will be.
I've stated before that the only thing humans are actually good at is finding patterns. Whenever we see a set of data we start looking for patterns. We'll find patterns when no pattern exists. Better still, we WANT to find patterns. It scares people if the world is not ordered. Some people look for religion, others look for conspiracies, and some look for both. The underlying commonality between them all is a desire that there be a puppet master pulling the strings.
Consider the whole question of "buying the media". As I pointed out, the mainstream media is not monolithic. There are competing, powerful, corporations behind the large mainstream media groups. To buy them, or control them, would require an uber-power that had the money and influence to pull strings on already wealthy, powerful...and yet opposed, people and organizations. Furthermore, that uber-power would have to be unknown, whereas the wealthy, powerful, people leading those media corporations are well known, visible, outspoken, and so on. So, not only would that uber-power have to be exceptional in influence, wealth, and power, it would also have to be extraordinarily exceptional in that it doesn't have an ego. That's probably why people go for God as an answer: We KNOW that no human with that kind of power would be able to resist flaunting it. No human would be willing to stay in the shadows.
There is somebody pulling the strings: It's the puppets. It's just puppets pulling the strings of other puppets.
That is mostly the rantings of Senator Rand Paul and he just keeps pushing it because Fauci has embarrassed him so many times. He final found some obscure email that "vaguely" mentioned that. Just more crap from the far right trying to prove Trump actually saved us all.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker