How can you believe that you can commit murder and get away with it indefinitely? You must be criminally insane.Quote:
Originally Posted by Niya
Printable View
How can you believe that you can commit murder and get away with it indefinitely? You must be criminally insane.Quote:
Originally Posted by Niya
My higher level of rational though tells me that since they taste good, I'm supposed to eat them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Witis
Heh, if you are happy to murder chickens and cows then I don't see why you wouldn't kill a Triceratops too. Although you forgot to choose a carnivorous dinosaur.Quote:
Originally Posted by Niya
I am not your son. I actually believe that you do want to commit enough crimes to send yourself there Niya.Quote:
Originally Posted by Niya
No one can force you to be good Niya, if you want to be evil that is your prerogative.Quote:
Originally Posted by Niya
I don't want to be evil, I just want to be fed tasty food.Quote:
Originally Posted by Witis
I've been having <ahem> "stomach problems" that have been getting worse and worse for about 3 or 4 years. Been to see the doctors and there's nothing diagnosable so I've been cutting out various types of food to see what effect it has. A couple of weeks ago I tried cutting out meat and, while not perfect, my digestion improved pretty dramatically. Conclusion: I may be forced to cut meat out of my diet completely.Quote:
If hell is a place where I can eat beef all day, then sign me up!
Hell is the place where you can't eat beef all day.:cry:
Mind you, I had a burger last night and damn the consequences. It should be noted that there are two meanings for the word "damn" and both are equally applicable.
I don't have the statistics, either. They line every fenced stream in this state, though.Quote:
Originally Posted by Witis
I was wondering why you kept talking about UV radiation. I assumed that it was an afterthought, but now it looks like you really think that UV is related to heat. Are you sure you aren't thinking of IR? UV has little or nothing to do with heating as far as I can tell, it only deals with sunburns. The link you provided did show UV max, but also showed (and stated) that maximum surface temperature was much later. The link I gave you wasn't terribly hard to navigate to find the maximum daily temperature. Just click the radio button for the archived data, then select any day in the listbox. The daily max temperatures are there. However, since you seem to have gotten onto UV, I can see why you weren't able to get it, because that isn't in those reports.Quote:
Sadly I couldn't seem to work out how to get the figures I needed to work out the U.V. and temp readings over the course of a day.
When I was talking about U.V. and temp over the course of a day I was talking about that:
http://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/paleo/ctl/clisci0.html
"By the time the surface temperature reaches its maximum, the amount of UV radiation reaching the surface has decreased almost by half of that at solar noon". At noon there is max U.V. and the temp is close to the daily max making it the worst time of the day in a desert. I know the temp can stay elevated near the daily max sometimes not dropping until 10pm or later, but noon is still the most stressful time in my view.
What's up with the UV?
Classic! As soon as that video started, I recognized Dr. Dan Schill. He's a reasonable person to have talking about redband trout, since he has been involved with so much research on them. They aren't "making their way" into the desert. They've been there longer than we have.Quote:
Trout are typically regarded as cool climate fish so that is a problem if they are making their way into desert areas like the redbands:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OXqrE2IJVnQ
Which ones? The desert fish, or the introduced species? Trout are trout, so you either like them or not. Redbands never get all that big, and I don't know of a single species found in desert streams that grows large enough to bother eating. You can certainly try eating chubs, if you so desire. There are plenty of species of those that are not endangered. I don't know of a single species that is consumed by humans, though.Quote:
As far as I am aware the majority of the native desert fish in North America are endangered or have become extinct this century including the bonytail chub: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bonytail_chub due to pressure from non native species. One solution is to reintroduce some of the endangered species of native desert fish in order to avoid the problems you are talking about regarding the water temperature killing the non native or temperate climate species. I bet some of those species are extremely tasty.
Frankly, your vision of heaven is as horrible as all the others I have ever heard. If this be heavan, then give me hell.Quote:
Originally Posted by Witis
On one point I would agree with Witis: If we banned the consumption of cows for meat, hides, and all the other things that they are used for (every part of the cow is used), that would work pretty well for me, because it would drive cows to extinction in no time. They simply aren't suited to live on their own, and wouldn't survive for long. The only reason they are sitll with us is because we find them useful. Without that, all the talk of evnironmental degradation that they cause would be moot.
So if we stop having cows as a protein source then what will it be replaced by?
Remember that movie Soylent Green (1973 might be too long ago for the young folk here).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9IKVj4l5GU4
So, let's move on to the next thing.
OMG. Becky, look at her butt.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker
I'm sorry Niya but you can't be good and murder chickens and cows. :LQuote:
Originally Posted by Niya
Do you mean you are thinking about going vegetarian/vegan or can you still eat fish Dec?Quote:
Originally Posted by FunkyDexter
True, I can't imagine why they would fence them otherwise except to protect small shrubs and other plant life.Quote:
I don't have the statistics, either. They line every fenced stream in this state, though.
The U.V. chart shows the sun's intensity peaks at midday although it takes a few hours for the temperature to peak in response, even so the temperature at midday is only a few degree lower than its daily peak, thus the midday sun is the most intense time of the day in the desert. The water can be warmed indirectly by the air temperature or directly by the sun thus the water is being heated the most at midday and that is when the sun is overhead meaning that any trees lining the stream will have little to no impact on the daily water temperature. So I am not convinced a. that there are very many tall trees lining the desert rivers and streams and b. even if there are whether they can substantially lower the water temperature given the heating effect of the midday sun.Quote:
I was wondering why you kept talking about UV radiation. I assumed that it was an afterthought, but now it looks like you really think that UV is related to heat. Are you sure you aren't thinking of IR? UV has little or nothing to do with heating as far as I can tell, it only deals with sunburns. The link you provided did show UV max, but also showed (and stated) that maximum surface temperature was much later. The link I gave you wasn't terribly hard to navigate to find the maximum daily temperature. Just click the radio button for the archived data, then select any day in the listbox. The daily max temperatures are there. However, since you seem to have gotten onto UV, I can see why you weren't able to get it, because that isn't in those reports.
What's up with the UV?
I am not sure that was the point Dan was making, he was suggesting that it wasn't their natural environment and that they only survive in the desert in cool spring fed streams i.e. trout are a cool climate rather than a desert fish and that they haven't evolved to live there.Quote:
Classic! As soon as that video started, I recognized Dr. Dan Schill. He's a reasonable person to have talking about redband trout, since he has been involved with so much research on them. They aren't "making their way" into the desert. They've been there longer than we have.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Witis
Not the trout as they are a cool climate species and so you know that there are going to be problems trying to get them to survive in the desert, so any of the native species that have evolved to withstand desert conditions. As far as picking out the species to focus on I guess that would involve a series of taste tests to determine which varieties will be most sought after in the fish markets, although perhaps you can make a case for some of the other less tasty varieties.Quote:
Which ones? The desert fish, or the introduced species? Trout are trout, so you either like them or not. Redbands never get all that big, and I don't know of a single species found in desert streams that grows large enough to bother eating. You can certainly try eating chubs, if you so desire. There are plenty of species of those that are not endangered. I don't know of a single species that is consumed by humans, though.
My vision on this issue is that you are not allowed to murder innocent creatures in the same way that humans are not allowed to murder each other or execute innocent men. You mean that you actually want to go around trying to murder everything while trying to take over the universe? If that is the case then you clearly don't want to live in heaven, you want to live in a nihilistic lair of iniquity instead, and that means going to hell when you are finally caught and brought to justice.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X3ZcZ2h4Ths
Any animal that you can truthfully justify killing for food including fish, lizards, snakes, spiders, etc., and make sure that you don't include any innocent creatures in the food chain. Also you don't have to eat meat for protein.Quote:
Originally Posted by szlamany
How do you consider it ok to kill a fish or a lizard and are against a chicken or a cow?Quote:
Originally Posted by Witis
If you are using "animal IQ" then that lizard and chicken are pretty close - right?
The way I justify it is that 10,000 years ago man domesticated cows and figured out how to grow better vegetables. I consider both of those aspects to be the same - farming is farming - whether we have a man-made oyster bed, fish farms or chicken farms.
If you think cows are just special mammals for some other reason - religion or culture, for instance - then this is just a silly debate.
Why debate culture? The points is that you and yours "own" you culture - and I have my own :)
Witis is not being serious szlamany. I mean he talks about "guilty animals" and fish taking over the universe. He's just poking fun with this topic.
I've not been able to fully read digest? any of these posts - it's been pages and pages of debating.
I'd rather see moor mermaids....
Is that OK to eat...
Fish and lizards need to be stopped before they take over the universe where as chickens and cows are friendly creatures that must be defended rather than murdered.Quote:
Originally Posted by szlamany
It has nothing to do with an animal I.Q. Although many animals are friendly and non threatening, some animals have evolved into nefarious species and if they continue to evolve said animals will threaten the safety of the universe hence it is justifiable to kill any nefarious species for food. For example snakes continue to grow while they are alive so that if you engineered a species of artificial robosnakes they too would continue to eat and grow until they take over the universe or die trying.Quote:
Originally Posted by szlamany
Yeah as humans are omnivores you simply see every other creature and plant on the planet as a food source. The problem is that humans have enough intelligence to dominate all the animal and plant life on the planet and to analyse which animals, if any, should be killed for food. Thus humans are responsible for any decisions they make about which animals to defend and which animals to consume. If you consciously choose to murder innocent animals like cows and chickens then you also have to accept responsibility for committing those crimes.Quote:
Originally Posted by szlamany
I view any friendly animals such as cows as special and deserving of my protection.Quote:
Originally Posted by szlamany
It is not a cultural issue, it's an issue of life and death and animal mistreatment and cruelty, it is a judicial issue.Quote:
Originally Posted by szlamany
No, it is serious, I have to eat the fish to save the universe. \(^.^)/Quote:
Originally Posted by Niya
Yep, there is quite a lot of content in the last few pages but worth trying to get your head around them.Quote:
Originally Posted by szlamany
I'd rather eat more fish.Quote:
Originally Posted by szlamany
Fish? Sure, eat as much as you want!Quote:
Originally Posted by szlamany
Yes, please save us all!Quote:
Originally Posted by Witis
Oh of course!Quote:
Originally Posted by szlamany
I cannot save those who have committed murder Niya. :LQuote:
Originally Posted by Niya
B.T.W. have you selected your favourite dinosaur yet?
Velociraptors!
They eat everyone!
Nah, you can't believe everything Hollywood churns out, at some point the science has to come into play.Quote:
Originally Posted by szlamany
Who bothers with science?
Yeah, except that you are making up your data based on guesses and wishful thinking. You have no practical experience with any of this and it's kind of showing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Witis
I didn't watch the video after the first few seconds, and I didn't turn on the sound anyways. I only watched long enough to be sure that it was, in fact, the person I thought it was (who I know fairly well, though I have only worked with him occasionally).Quote:
I am not sure that was the point Dan was making, he was suggesting that it wasn't their natural environment and that they only survive in the desert in cool spring fed streams i.e. trout are a cool climate rather than a desert fish and that they haven't evolved to live there.
And you repeatedly ignore the fact that those trout ARE native species. The reason Schill works with them is because they are species of concern in the state, which they couldn't be unless they were native. Therefore, those are species that have evolved to withstand desert conditions. We are the ones impacting them.Quote:
Not the trout as they are a cool climate species and so you know that there are going to be problems trying to get them to survive in the desert, so any of the native species that have evolved to withstand desert conditions.
No. For a fish to be sought after in the fish markets, it has to pass a different criteria first: It has to be large enough so that a person would bother eating them. Most desert fish are tiny.Quote:
As far as picking out the species to focus on I guess that would involve a series of taste tests to determine which varieties will be most sought after in the fish markets, although perhaps you can make a case for some of the other less tasty varieties.
I believe he is quite serious. This is his view, as strange and alien as it may seem. He went here a year ago and has come back. In all this, as in everything else posted, Witis is consistent. That's why it's the Witis way. That Disney-fascist view of the animal world is why I chose to call him Bambi once he came up with a nickname for me. Since he gave me one, I could do no less, and the name was obvious.Quote:
Originally Posted by Niya
By the way, you shouldn't show more mermaid pictures because it will seriously confuse Witis. He won't be able to tell whether he can eat them or not.
O.k. szlamany has a predilection for catholic velociraptors.Quote:
Originally Posted by szlamany
Velociraptors "lived approximately 75 to 71 million years ago" "weighing up to 15 kg" and "in September 2007, researchers found quill knobs on the forearm of a Velociraptor found in Mongolia.[10] These bumps on bird wing bones show where feathers anchor, and their presence on Velociraptor indicate it too had feathers"."The second digit, for which Velociraptor is most famous, was highly modified and held retracted off the ground. It bore a relatively large, sickle-shaped claw" (Wiki).
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...r_dinoguy2.jpghttp://0.tqn.com/d/dinosaurs/1/S/f/B...iraptorAB3.jpg
Far from eating everything, as it is only a 15kg reptilian bird, it is often classified as a scavenger: "In 2012, Hone and colleagues published a paper that described a Velociraptor specimen with a long bone of an azhdarchid pterosaur in its gut. This was interpreted as showing scavenging behaviour" (Wiki).
Its his trolling way. I cannot believe that someone actually believes that fishes would take over the universe or that some animals are innocent or guilty based on...well whatever he is basing it on. If he really were that daft then I wouldn't expect him to be able to operate a computer much less figure out how to sign up for on a forum. As for his consistency....well, effective trolls are nothing if not consistent.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker
However, there are actually people that believe in some of his less outrageous claims like not eating meat and such but even they are more rational about it.
Huh? What data did I make up? The data that I provided re U.V. and temperature was from a credible source.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker
Sad to say it but Dan Schill pretty much ruined your case.Quote:
I didn't watch the video after the first few seconds, and I didn't turn on the sound anyways. I only watched long enough to be sure that it was, in fact, the person I thought it was (who I know fairly well, though I have only worked with him occasionally).
Trout are classified as cool climate fish and I challenge you to provide any evidence that there are native species of trout that have evolved into desert fish capable of withstanding warm to hot water or no water at all. In that video I posted Dan Schill also detailed that he did not consider redband trout to be desert fish and called them a rainbow trout that happens to live in the coolest parts of desert rivers and streams.Quote:
And you repeatedly ignore the fact that those trout ARE native species. The reason Schill works with them is because they are species of concern in the state, which they couldn't be unless they were native. Therefore, those are species that have evolved to withstand desert conditions. We are the ones impacting them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Witis
Surely you have eaten sardines or anchovies before, they just have to pass the taste test in my view.Quote:
No. For a fish to be sought after in the fish markets, it has to pass a different criteria first: It has to be large enough so that a person would bother eating them. Most desert fish are tiny.
You came up with UV peaking at noon, which is fine, then tried to suggest that it was maximum temperature, which it is not. You talk about desert vegetation, but you appear to have never seen a desert and also appear to think that they are all the same. For one thing, you believe that they are all hot and dry, when they are really only dry.Quote:
Originally Posted by Witis
No, he didn't, but I won't say anymore about that.Quote:
Sad to say it but Dan Schill pretty much ruined your case.
Of course they aren't capable of withstanding warm to hot water. Who said that they did? That's more of your assumption that deserts have to be hot and desert streams have to be hot. They don't. There are streams too hot for trout in non-desert areas around here, and desert streams that are world-class trout fisheries. Guess why that is. The climate isn't as cookie-cutter as your imagination.Quote:
Trout are classified as cool climate fish and I challenge you to provide any evidence that there are native species of trout that have evolved into desert fish capable of withstanding warm to hot water or no water at all.
Both of those are high volume marine fish (though I've caught anchovies in brackish water, so they aren't exclusively marine). Both are also served salty. I've had some Chinese salted/dried fish that looked like they might have been cyprinids, too, which would be a fresh water species (though salted and dried I couldn't be quite sure what they were). None of those fish pass the taste test to me, but you probably do have a point: Once you load something up with enough spices and salt, it probably doesn't matter what it was originally. That was my feeling about conch, as well: Once treated the way that conch had been treated, even an old boot sole would probably be edible.Quote:
Surely you have eaten sardines or anchovies before, they just have to pass the taste test in my view.
Fascism "A political regime, having totalitarian aspirations, ideologically based on a relationship between business and the centralized government, business-and-government control of the market place, repression of criticism or opposition, a leader cult and exalting the state and/or religion above individual rights. Originally only applied (usually capitalized) to Benito Mussolini's Italy." "Fascist ideology consistently invokes the primacy of the state. Leaders such as Benito Mussolini in Italy and Adolf Hitler in Nazi Germany embodied the state and claimed immense power." (Wiki)Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker
My sig reads "All men have an inherent right to life, the right to self determination including freedom from forced or compulsory labour, a right to hold opinions and the freedom of expression, and the right to a fair trial and freedom from torture. Be aware that these rights are universal and inalienable (cannot be given, taken or otherwise transferred or removed) although you do risk losing the aforementioned rights should you fail to uphold them" which is exceedingly liberal and focused on human rights rather than dictatorial fascism. You are also aware of my overt anti monarchy views. Thus calling me a fascist is not only very offensive it is also farcical and ludicrous.
Hey Ugga Boey I am not a troll. Determining which animals to defend and which animals to consume is a indication of higher level intelligence rather than stupidity, only cavemen eat every form of life beneath them. Further I think you are daft for saying goodbye to eternity and knowingly committing crimes like murdering cows and chickens as doing so will get you into hell.Quote:
Originally Posted by Niya
Aren't you just adorable :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Witis
Nope, I only ever suggested that at midday the temp was a couple of degrees centigrade below the daily max i.e. that is merely illusory criticism. For example you will be unable to tell me the post number of the post where I made such a claim.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker
You were clearly only referring to hot desert conditions when talking about the impact of cows on desert fish. Hmmm I wonder what percentage of the world is covered by hot deserts and what percentage of the world is covered by cold deserts. Also I don't view areas covered by ice like the continent of Antarctica as a desert due to the widespread availability of water in frozen form.Quote:
You talk about desert vegetation, but you appear to have never seen a desert and also appear to think that they are all the same. For one thing, you believe that they are all hot and dry, when they are really only dry.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Witis
Sure he did.Quote:
No, he didn't, but I won't say anymore about that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sharky
Quote:
Originally Posted by Witis
At last you finally admit that trout are not a desert fish adapted to withstand warm water or no water, and no I obviously don't mean cold desert!Quote:
Of course they aren't capable of withstanding warm to hot water. Who said that they did? That's more of your assumption that deserts have to be hot and desert streams have to be hot. They don't. There are streams too hot for trout in non-desert areas around here, and desert streams that are world-class trout fisheries. Guess why that is. The climate isn't as cookie-cutter as your imagination.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Witis
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sharky
Quote:
Originally Posted by Witis
Did you eat that sort of conch:Quote:
Both of those are high volume marine fish (though I've caught anchovies in brackish water, so they aren't exclusively marine). Both are also served salty. I've had some Chinese salted/dried fish that looked like they might have been cyprinids, too, which would be a fresh water species (though salted and dried I couldn't be quite sure what they were). None of those fish pass the taste test to me, but you probably do have a point: Once you load something up with enough spices and salt, it probably doesn't matter what it was originally. That was my feeling about conch, as well: Once treated the way that conch had been treated, even an old boot sole would probably be edible.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ExV4b77qfww
http://ecologyadventure2.edublogs.or...-2-2e8qx7n.jpgQuote:
Originally Posted by Niya
By noon, half the daily temperature sounds about right. So, if we see roughly 20-30 degree (F) daily swings, then seeing 10-15 degrees by noon is about normal, with the rest coming afterwards. You can construe that as a couple degrees C if you'd like.Quote:
Originally Posted by Witis
I wasn't, actually. I was referring to Idaho desert conditions. With abundant vegetation, the streams can remain pretty cool. I was happy to sit in one to cool off on a hot desert hike. That stream may have been the east fork of the one in that video, though I think probably not. It was clearly desert (the Inside Desert, officially), and had plenty of fish. It was also thoroughly fenced, so cows have to stay out.Quote:
You were clearly only referring to hot desert conditions when talking about the impact of cows on desert fish.
Ok, so what? Those are the fish that we are trying to protect when we fence cows out of the water (well, them and salmon, depending on the exact stream). The fish are native to the streams in question, too, which means that we didn't put them there. The streams are in deserts. The rest is all semantics.Quote:
Sure he did, "In that video I posted Dan Schill also detailed that he did not consider redband trout to be desert fish and called them a rainbow trout that happens to live in the coolest parts of desert rivers and streams."
Which wasn't any part of the argument, so it has nothing to do with anything at all. The very point of this discussion was that the vegetaion was keeping the water cool enough for the trout, and cow grazing would wipe out the vegetation, which would raise the temperatures to lethal limits and wipe out the trout, which are native. Of course they aren't adapted for hot water, or else that whole point would have been invalid. The very reason I was opposed to cows out there was because their impact caused the water to be too hot for the fish.Quote:
At last you finally admit that trout are not a desert fish adapted to withstand warm water or no water, and no I obviously don't mean cold desert!
By the way, I realize that there are fish that can withstand desication, but I'm not aware of any such species in this state or these deserts.
Probably not, though I don't know what kind of conch I ate. For that matter, considering how it was prepared, I'm not actually sure that I had conch at all. It could have been minced rubber bands for all I know. Tasted good, though, whatever it was.Quote:
Did you eat that sort of conch:
That's a pretty good definition of fascism. I hadn't seen it when I went looking for a concise definition of the term. Your views of the animal kingdom follow all of that pretty much perfectly, except for the business part (as animals don't have any formal economy or markets). That has also been the disney view in films like Bambi and The Lion King: Every animal species has its place in a heirarchy from greater to lesser. The glory of an animal is in the animal knowing its place and acting accordingly. Some are humble, some are proud, but each has a designated place and is to be judged by its place. The meek must be meek, and they are exalted for it. The mighty must be mighty, and they are condemned for it. Those animals that violate the bounds attributed to their species are considered abberations, so deer or cows that eat chicks are deviants because a true member of that species would never kill anything, other than plants, directly. In fact, you have suggested that they may not kill plants, either, except as a deviant behavior.Quote:
Originally Posted by Witis
Are you familiar with the work of David Ike?Quote:
Fish and lizards need to be stopped before they take over the universe
I already provided evidence to back up my claim regarding the temperature: http://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/paleo/ctl/clisci0.html . If you look at the charts you can see that at midday the temperature is just less than 24 degrees celsius only 2 degrees less that the daily peak. Half the daily peak is reached by 6 am.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker
Quote:
Originally Posted by Witis
It is not possible for cows to cause overheating of the water in a cold desert. Also I would describe any cold area that does not receive very much rainfall a cold and arid area or a cold desert rather than desert as the default meaning for desert is hot rather than mild or cold probably because hot deserts cover more of the earth's surface:Quote:
I wasn't, actually. I was referring to Idaho desert conditions. With abundant vegetation, the streams can remain pretty cool. I was happy to sit in one to cool off on a hot desert hike. That stream may have been the east fork of the one in that video, though I think probably not. It was clearly desert (the Inside Desert, officially), and had plenty of fish. It was also thoroughly fenced, so cows have to stay out.
http://www.mapsofworld.com/images/world-desert-map.jpg
Quote:
Originally Posted by Witis
The problem is that the trout have not yet evolved enough to withstand the heat of the desert sun and fencing off the river banks is unlikely to substantially reduce the water temperature for the reasons I have provided.Quote:
Ok, so what? Those are the fish that we are trying to protect when we fence cows out of the water (well, them and salmon, depending on the exact stream). The fish are native to the streams in question, too, which means that we didn't put them there. The streams are in deserts. The rest is all semantics.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Witis
I put it to you, once again, that there are not a large number of tall trees lining the majority of the desert rivers and streams and even if there were the sun drives the water temperature by heating the air and water and it has most of its impact around midday when trees provide little to no shade.Quote:
Which wasn't any part of the argument, so it has nothing to do with anything at all. The very point of this discussion was that the vegetaion was keeping the water cool enough for the trout, and cow grazing would wipe out the vegetation, which would raise the temperatures to lethal limits and wipe out the trout, which are native. Of course they aren't adapted for hot water, or else that whole point would have been invalid. The very reason I was opposed to cows out there was because their impact caused the water to be too hot for the fish.
If I was looking at all of the species of (hot) desert fish native to he U.S., including the endangered species, I'd have to investigate each species to determine which ones are most adapted for the conditions.Quote:
By the way, I realize that there are fish that can withstand desication, but I'm not aware of any such species in this state or these deserts.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Witis
That Florida horse conch is one of the largest sea snails in the world, although it is not a true conch as it is not in the family Strombidae.Quote:
Probably not, though I don't know what kind of conch I ate. For that matter, considering how it was prepared, I'm not actually sure that I had conch at all. It could have been minced rubber bands for all I know. Tasted good, though, whatever it was.
http://media-cache-ec0.pinimg.com/73...705217ee4e.jpg
You did provide that, and you apparently didn't bother reading. The text accompanying the charts states that they are an example and that this will vary by a few factors. If the example they gave was valid for everywhere, then that might mean something, but as it is just an example, it is evidence...of one possible situation.Quote:
Originally Posted by Witis
I don't particularly care whether you want to call some area a desert or not. A desert has a definition, and the area I am talking about is called a desert in fact and by definition. If you want to argue about something where you change the definition to suit your argument...go right ahead, it's the internet. I'm talking about a desert, though.Quote:
It is not possible for cows to cause overheating of the water in a cold desert. Also I would describe any cold area that does not receive very much rainfall a cold and arid area or a cold desert rather than desert as the default meaning for desert is hot rather than mild or cold probably because hot deserts cover more of the earth's surface:
As for saying that it is not possible for cows to cause overheating of the water in a cold desert, that's....hard to say anything about, since you aren't clear as to what you mean by a cold desert. You are right that cows don't cause overheating if the temperature isn't hot. They do cause overheating in the deserts around here, but whether or not you call this a cold desert....how can anybody be sure?
Too bad. This is well established. I'm not even sure what reasons you have provided, but I'm sorry the facts on the ground don't live up to the majesty of your theories.Quote:
The problem is that the trout have not yet evolved enough to withstand the heat of the desert sun and fencing off the river banks is unlikely to substantially reduce the water temperature for the reasons I have provided.
Ooo, your conjectures have failed you once again. Peruse southern Idaho using Google Earth. Wherever you see green vegetation, you are looking at tall vegetation, and that is where water is. I've used that technique to figure out where I'd be able to re-load on water on cross-desert trips. There is a small amount of water that is not surrounded by vegetation, and I'm not quite sure why. Most of those structures are man-made, and may be far too recent to have any vegetation growing, or they may be totally ephemeral (the Inside Lakes, which, though large in area, are only an inch or two deep when full).Quote:
I put it to you, once again, that there are not a large number of tall trees lining the majority of the desert rivers and streams and even if there were the sun drives the water temperature by heating the air and water and it has most of its impact around midday when trees provide little to no shade.
Do so, and report back with your findings.Quote:
If I was looking at all of the species of (hot) desert fish native to he U.S., including the endangered species, I'd have to investigate each species to determine which ones are most adapted for the conditions.
I can't imagine how stopping innocent animals from being murdered could possibly turn the planet into a fascist dictatorship thus your position is barking mad. However, allowing humans to indiscriminately kill any animal or plant beneath them definitely could i.e. your view of the animal and plant kingdoms shows a callous and flagrant disregard for all forms of life beneath humans. You seem to view yourself as mighty and eager to take from anything you view as meek and beneath you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker
Not really, why do you ask?Quote:
Originally Posted by FunkyDexter
Tell that to lion when he kills and eats the gazelle.Quote:
Originally Posted by Witis
I also indicated that the data you posted did not include daily temperature and U.V. charts. So unless you have any better data I can only refer to my source.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker
Quote:
Originally Posted by Witis
If there is an issue regarding fish dying because the water is getting too warm then you can be sure that you are referring to a hot desert. Is the desert marked on the map I posted?Quote:
I don't particularly care whether you want to call some area a desert or not. A desert has a definition, and the area I am talking about is called a desert in fact and by definition. If you want to argue about something where you change the definition to suit your argument...go right ahead, it's the internet. I'm talking about a desert, though.
As for saying that it is not possible for cows to cause overheating of the water in a cold desert, that's....hard to say anything about, since you aren't clear as to what you mean by a cold desert. You are right that cows don't cause overheating if the temperature isn't hot. They do cause overheating in the deserts around here, but whether or not you call this a cold desert....how can anybody be sure?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Witis
I will continue to dispute your stated belief that fencing off a few river banks covered with a bit of green vegetation substantially reduces the water temperature at all, and that true desert fish need shade to survive.Quote:
Too bad. This is well established. I'm not even sure what reasons you have provided, but I'm sorry the facts on the ground don't live up to the majesty of your theories.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Witis
I am not convinced. If you want me to look at something please at least post a link with the map open to Idaho and set up the way you want it and a link confirming that green = tall trees not just grass or shrubs.Quote:
Ooo, your conjectures have failed you once again. Peruse southern Idaho using Google Earth. Wherever you see green vegetation, you are looking at tall vegetation, and that is where water is. I've used that technique to figure out where I'd be able to re-load on water on cross-desert trips. There is a small amount of water that is not surrounded by vegetation, and I'm not quite sure why. Most of those structures are man-made, and may be far too recent to have any vegetation growing, or they may be totally ephemeral (the Inside Lakes, which, though large in area, are only an inch or two deep when full).
I prefer it when they eat snakes like that:Quote:
Originally Posted by Niya
http://www.irinaafrica.com/en/files/...-leopard-2.jpg
The lions don't care what you prefer. They'll probably kill you too if you give them a chance.Quote:
Originally Posted by Witis