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I actually live according to the logic I have provided. Why would I go around murdering innocent chickens and cows when there is an abundance of fresh and canned fish available everywhere I go? Who wants to go to hell when you can go to heaven instead?Quote:
Originally Posted by Niya
Then why am I not in prison already ?Quote:
Originally Posted by Witis
Yep!Quote:
Originally Posted by Witis
So you believe in heaven and hell ?Quote:
Originally Posted by Witis
Yum yum.Quote:
Originally Posted by Witis
Ah, you seem to think that you have a reasonable chance of getting away with your chicken and cow murders. I am not so optimistic re your chances especially as time nears infinity. ☹Quote:
Originally Posted by Niya
Yep, thought so, they always think they won't eat snake, fish or bear at first like baleen whales but they always do in the end.Quote:
Originally Posted by Niya
Sure, if you are good then you go to heaven, if you are bad then you go off to the other place like the dinosaurs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Niya
Scores +10 man points, yes! ˚ᵕ˚Quote:
Originally Posted by Niya
Yeah, I don't know that there is a law about this. How many desert streams do you know that don't have any thick vegetation along them (not necessarily trees)? If you do know some, check out their grazing history, because you will probably find that they are heavily grazed. The presence of thick/tall vegetation in the desert tells you where the water is.Quote:
Originally Posted by Witis
Where do you live? Out here, the hottest time of day isn't mid-day, but around 4 or 5 in the afternoon when the sun is not directly over head.Quote:
that the sun is hottest in the middle of the day
Yeah, that's certainly one of the pieces you are making up. Perhaps you are thinking of lakes where thermal stratification can take place? Streams don't work that way. The temperature of the water is uniform throughout unless you have groundwater seeps.Quote:
that the deepest pools are the coolest
There certainly are fish that have evolved as you state. There are also plenty of non-desert fish in desert streams. I'm also not sure that there is a desert fish that is consumed by humans. The fish in our streams are trout, and they are not tolerant of hot water, nor can they withstand drought. There are some trout species that were introduced, but there are also several species that are native to these streams and were doing fine until cows were introduced.Quote:
or that desert fish have evolved to withstand desert conditions including warm water and some species can even survive when the water completely disappears?
You use it to justify eating fish. While you might conclude that piscivorous fish are murderers, and therefore you are justified in eating them, you haven't been very good about making any distinction regarding the diet of the fish. You just say that they taste good. You also appear to justify killing plants, which are necessarily innocent. I guess you never said that you liked the taste of vegetables, so perhaps you don't kill them because they taste good.Quote:
Originally Posted by Witis
I agree with this statement. I rarely eat beef because the industry is evil, and the cows do so much damage. On the other hand, I occasionally eat shrimp, and there probably isn't a worse industry out there, so I'm a bit of a hypocrit in that regard.Quote:
Originally Posted by Witis
What does that mean? Are you wrapping whales in with snakes, fish, or bears, or are you saying that whales don't think they will eat snakes, fish or bears...then end up eating them. If so...how did a whale end up eating a bear, especially a baleen whale?Quote:
Originally Posted by Witis
By the way, do you eat ALL fish? For example, do you eat Tilapia? How about carp? Shrimp, clams, lobster (I realize they aren't actually fish, but they are seafood, and none of them are necessarily predatory)?
There is an example of a desert river where there is a small amount of green vegetation but no shade from any trees:Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker
https://biomesfifth10.wikispaces.com...ert_stream.JPG
and even if there are a few trees around they don't offer any protection from the midday sun:
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-IgT3gB_zv6...ert+stream.jpg
Are you sure, the most direct sunlight is usually around midday (most UV radiation) and the temperature is close to the daily max at that time too (within a couple of degrees centigrade).Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker
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Originally Posted by Witis
I think we will have to agree to disagree on that one.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker
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Originally Posted by Witis
"Trout are usually found in cool (50–60 °F or 10–16 °C), clear streams and lakes" - Ah you are talking about trying to get non desert fish to survive and thrive in desert conditions, that's a much harder feat to accomplish and I wouldn't go blaming the cows so quickly when the desert conditions are the most likely cause of their death. You might find that the fish die even when the river banks are completely fenced off. I would focus on reintroducing desert fish that have evolved to withstand the desert conditions and are good eating instead, I am sure there are some tasty desert species that have yet to make it regularly onto my dinner plate.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker
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Originally Posted by Witis
Nope, I have never used taste as a justification for eating any animal. In the case of fish I outlined that fish continue to grow until they die so that if you made a robotic fish it would continue to eat and grow until it takes over the universe or dies trying hence fish represent a threat to the safety of the universe.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker
I have already indicated that I do not condone killing plants and that I eat mushrooms which have a rootstock that is preserved between seasons and tomatoes. Are you perhaps referring to annuals such as peas and vegetables that grow below ground such as carrots, onions, carrots, and parsnips? They are usually annuals or biennials: "A biennial plant is a flowering plant that takes two years to complete its biological lifecycle.[1] In the first year the plant grows leaves, stems, and roots (vegetative structures), then it enters a period of dormancy over the colder months. Usually the stem remains very short and the leaves are low to the ground, forming a rosette. Many biennials require a cold treatment, or vernalization, before they will flower. During the next spring or summer, the stem of the biennial plant elongates greatly, or "bolts". The plant then flowers, producing fruits and seeds before it finally dies" (Wiki). So those plants only have a natural lifecycle of 1-2 years i.e. they are not killed by humans.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker
Well I won't live forever so I think I can safely enjoy beef until I die. Infinity can pucker up and kiss my....well you know...Quote:
Originally Posted by Witis
Yeah, that's a river. We don't have any of that size. It did occur to me that you may be thinking of large rivers where riparian vegetation can't cover the stream. Those are a pretty small portion of the total, but in those cases, cows probably have little direct impact.Quote:
Originally Posted by Witis
Yes. Daily max temperatures out here are as I stated.Quote:
Are you sure, the most direct sunlight is usually around midday (most UV radiation) and the temperature is close to the daily max at that time too (within a couple of degrees centigrade).
I think you have no idea, so we can certainly agree to disagree.Quote:
I think we will have to agree to disagree on that one.
Right. We put the fish there.... That's just not the case. The trout and salmon were there for thousands or millions of years. The impact of man was to bring in the cows, not to bring in the fish, and the cows certainly had the impact I described.Quote:
"Trout are usually found in cool (50–60 °F or 10–16 °C), clear streams and lakes" - Ah you are talking about trying to get non desert fish to survive and thrive in desert conditions, that's a much harder feat to accomplish and I wouldn't go blaming the cows so quickly when the desert conditions are the most likely cause of their death.
I'm not sure what to make of that second statement. Many of those annuals and bienniels are only that way because we moved them from their native habitat to somewhere else. My sister had potatos growing for years without replanting, and I've had carrots do the same (if they can survive the winter). Aside from that, it sounds like you eat no leafy vegetables (cabbage, lettuce, spinach, etc.), don't worry too much about eating the seeds of the plant, and justify the rest one way or another.
Your views on fish are just bizarre.
Hmmm how often is rarely, and what about chickens Sharky, do you still eat them regularly?Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker
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Originally Posted by Witis
Exactly what I wrote. =)Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker
Baleen whales can't eat each other unlike snakes, fish, or bears.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker
I have never eaten a Tilapia although I have recently eaten lobster and shrimp. I'd eat one of those clams -> http://www.world-science.net/otherne...0_old-clam.htm.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker
I'll have to quote you on that, oh wait, I just did. Do you have any regrets about saying goodbye to infinity?Quote:
Originally Posted by Niya
The point being, as I indicated, trees don't necessarily have to line the banks of a desert river or stream.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker
The max UV is at midday and the temp is within 2 degree centigrade of the max at midday making it the worst time of the day in the desert.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker
I see, that makes me happy. =)Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker
You have had cold climate fish instead of desert species growing in your desert stream for millions of years? I have to be quite skeptical about that claim and ask for you to provide some evidence to support your statement. Also I do no imagine that you can possibly blame the cows for eating all of the lush vegetation when it's the humans forcing them to live in the desert which is a foreign environment to them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker
I agree that occasionally some growers do incorrectly treat perennials as annuals and grow them in climates where they will not survive the winters thus killing the plant but overall eating fruit and veg is quite a plant safe thing. Re eating seed, are you talking about eating nuts or something else?Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker
I wouldn't call them bizarre. The same applies to the 400 year old quahog clams, they continue to grow until they die, so if you made a robotic clam then it would continue to grow until it takes over the universe or dies trying, hence they would make it on to my dinner plate.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker
True, but that's a distinct minority situation.Quote:
Originally Posted by Witis
Have you ever been in a desert? I've hiked and biked across a pair of them, and the heat was not at midday. Since you don't believe that, here's a link to the climate data for Boise:Quote:
The max UV is at midday and the temp is within 2 degree centigrade of the max at midday making it the worst time of the day in the desert.
http://www.nws.noaa.gov/climate/index.php?wfo=boi
I can't think of any weather stations that are clearly desert, so Boise will have to suffice. If you look at today, the high was not just a bit after 1:00, it was also shockingly low. I picked the wrong week to be on vacation, because it's tolerable in Boise this week. That's due to some odd cloud cover and rain from monsoonal moisture blowing in from the south. If you look at the highs for any day last week you will find that the peak temperature was between 4 and 6 in the afternoon. That's the way it works in the desert. I had to get my miles in before noon, because that's when it was comfortable. One day, when the temps got up around 100, I got most of my miles by 11, then sat in the shade of a kiosk (pretty dubious shade, at that), until the sun got low in the sky. I think I started hiking again around 7:30 or 8, and hiked until 11 at night. The heat of the day was certainly not noon, but on around 5. The climate data for Boise shows the same pattern.
I have no desire to do this. I'm not sure where you live, but you seem to have some kind of Disney view of deserts, too. Trout are pretty common throughout the west. You can look up the distribution of the redband trout (a resident form of the rainbow), and will find that they are located in plenty of desert areas (and plenty of non-desert areas, too). A few varieties of cutthroat are also found in desert streams, and green trout may be, as well. Some of the cutthroat may not be native, others are. If you find brook or brown trout, those are not native, so they were planted. Some varieties of rainbows are not native, either, and have been planted widely. The redbands have never been planted anywhere, to the best of my knowledge, probably because they don't grow large enough to make good sport fish (though brook trout can also reproduce at a tiny size).Quote:
You have had cold climate fish instead of desert species growing in your desert stream for millions of years? I have to be quite skeptical about that claim and ask for you to provide some evidence to support your statement.
One point that you will come across, if you search enough, is that there are lots of streams out here that don't connect to anything, but soak into the ground. Many of these streams have populations of cutthroat trout, and many of these fish look distinctly different from each other, since they haven't been able to mingle for millenia. Some people debate whether these are all even the same species.
The cows did the eating. As long as the humans fenced them out of the streams, then all is more or less well (except that their grazing appears to allow an invasive grass to get a toehold, which increases fire danger, but that's a different matter).Quote:
Also I do no imagine that you can possibly blame the cows for eating all of the lush vegetation when it's the humans forcing them to live in the desert which is a foreign environment to them.
At least the gators and snakes look edible, I am not so sure about the rest of that food chain diagram homer13j.
"As the snail grows, so does its calcium carbonate shell. The shell grows additively, by the addition of new calcium carbonate, which is secreted by glands located in the snail's mantle. The new material is added to the edge of the shell aperture (the opening of the shell). Therefore the centre of the shell's spiral was made when the snail was younger, and the outer part when the snail was older. When the snail reaches full adult size, it may build a thickened lip around the shell aperture. At this point the snail stops growing, and begins reproducing." (Wiki) so I don't imagine that snails would make it onto my plate.
Of course not, but they are. These things that keep growing do not do so at a linnear rate, and they won't progress to infinite size if they lived infinitely long. You can figure that out for yourself by thinking about dimensions: If length increases linnearly, then surface area increases at roughly the square of that rate and volume at roughly the cube of that rate. The amount of energy used by the organism is related to the number of cells, and therefore should be proportional to the volume. At some point, it becomes physically impossible to get enough food into the gut to provide the energy. This will be true of your robotic animal as well as your real animal unless you come up with a totally artificial energy source, but that would hardly be comparable to anything.Quote:
Originally Posted by Witis
By the way, since the surface area of the gut would increase at most by the square of the increase in length, such that energy absorption would have to become infinitely high to handle an ever increasing volume, fish must be removed from your plate, as well, because they can't keep increasing forever.
As Grandpa used to say as he steered me away from the salad bar.
"That's just for lookin at son." "The steak is over here." :D
Grandma had a different take on it.
Attachment 116625
This book is full of Witis-isms.
Attachment 116627
Something very attractive about this gal,
and She ain't bad looking either.
Attachment 116629
Careful there. Some folks 'round right might accuse you of objectifying women!Quote:
Originally Posted by Gruff
Nuffin objective about it. Simply saying if I loved plaid slacks I wouldn't run around trying to get everyone to wear plaid slacks. Just because their loud doesn't mean I have to be. :)
errr :ehh: okQuote:
Originally Posted by Gruff
The chicken and the cow look the best to me. Donno what you have against them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Witis
Point is, even if crackpots like the people you're pretending to be do manage to convince humanity to outlaw the eating of chickens and cows, I'll be long dead by then. I won't want to live in such a world anyway.Quote:
Originally Posted by Witis
I don't have any statistics but I highly doubt that tall shady trees line the majority of every desert river and stream.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker
Sadly I couldn't seem to work out how to get the figures I needed to work out the U.V. and temp readings over the course of a day.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker
When I was talking about U.V. and temp over the course of a day I was talking about that:Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker
http://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/paleo/ctl/clisci0.html
"By the time the surface temperature reaches its maximum, the amount of UV radiation reaching the surface has decreased almost by half of that at solar noon". At noon there is max U.V. and the temp is close to the daily max making it the worst time of the day in a desert. I know the temp can stay elevated near the daily max sometimes not dropping until 10pm or later, but noon is still the most stressful time in my view.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Witis
Trout are typically regarded as cool climate fish so that is a problem if they are making their way into desert areas like the redbands:Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OXqrE2IJVnQ
As far as I am aware the majority of the native desert fish in North America are endangered or have become extinct this century including the bonytail chub: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bonytail_chub due to pressure from non native species. One solution is to reintroduce some of the endangered species of native desert fish in order to avoid the problems you are talking about regarding the water temperature killing the non native or temperate climate species. I bet some of those species are extremely tasty.
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Originally Posted by Witis
Yep if you are going to try to farm cows in the desert and the cows really do kill the riparian vegetation then you have fence of the river banks to protect the wildlife that lives there.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker
Btw, I hear that human meat tastes terrible so altruistic instincts aside, I won't eat human anyways so that settles all your meandering to try and make it look as if I'd eat humans too.
Revolutionary, progressive, or radical perhaps but certainly not bizarre.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker
They keep on growing unless they suffer a reduction in their food supply, they get sick, or they die and they will try and take over the universe unless I turn them into dinner. =)Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker
That's why it's my job to eat them before that happens. =DQuote:
Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker
As fish keep on growing unless they are stopped they will definitely not be removed from my plate in order for me to save the world one meal at a time. ˚ᵕ˚Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker
So you have no problem murdering innocent fishes ?Quote:
Originally Posted by Witis
I hope he meant the salmon steak. :pQuote:
Originally Posted by Gruff
"Vegetarianism is the practice of abstaining from the consumption of meat – red meat, poultry, seafood and the flesh of any other animal; it may also include abstention from by-products of animal slaughter." "There are varieties of the diet as well: an ovo-vegetarian diet includes eggs but not dairy products, a lacto-vegetarian diet includes dairy products but not eggs, and an ovo-lacto vegetarian diet includes both eggs and dairy products. A vegan, or strict vegetarian, diet excludes all animal products, including eggs, dairy, beeswax and honey. Some vegans also avoid animal products such as leather for clothing and goose-fat for shoe polish." Thus I am clearly not a vegetarian or a vegan.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gruff
Epic fail. :pQuote:
Originally Posted by Gruff
Yes, that is heading in the right direction, finally you seem to be getting it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gruff
Chickens and cows should definitely not be in any food chain.Quote:
Originally Posted by Niya
You wouldn't want to live in heaven on earth? That's sad. ☹Quote:
Originally Posted by Niya
Tell that to nature.Quote:
Originally Posted by Witis
More like the darkest part of hell!Quote:
Originally Posted by Witis
I have no problems killing fish for food as I certainly do not view them as innocent.Quote:
Originally Posted by Niya
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Originally Posted by Witis
I like nature and evolution as it produced many nice species including humans, chickens, and cows and none of those species should be in any food chain.Quote:
Originally Posted by Niya
You seriously want to be damned to hell? You are obviously insane. Are you more interested in an execution or long term to eternal damnation?Quote:
Originally Posted by Niya
No...hell is that world where you get prison time for eating beef. I don't want to be there.Quote:
Originally Posted by Witis
Well nature did include them in the food chain so direct your false rage at nature and evolution.Quote:
Originally Posted by Witis
Fishes are more innocent that cows. Cows **** all over the place and stink us up. What do fishes do ? They don't do anybody anything and they make great pets.Quote:
Originally Posted by Witis
http://i1.wp.com/listverse.com/wp-co...size=400%2C291
How can such beauty not be innocent. Cows are ugly and smelly. I'd rather kill cows than slay beautiful creatures like fishes.
Cows and dumb looking and ugly. Their only useful purpose is food and milk.