I, too, feel that the main driver of what Israel is doing is for Netanyahu to avoid facing the voters.
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I, too, feel that the main driver of what Israel is doing is for Netanyahu to avoid facing the voters.
If that is true he is a real piece of scum, up there with Putin when it come to civilians.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker
US support him so the scum of my enemy is my kinda scum. If that is true...
Yeah, unfortunately, we've often been like that. It was probably worse during the cold war, but not a whole lot worse.
I didn't think of that when I posted but, yes, that makes the US scum for suppling the weapons and supporting it. From day one literally. The US is the first nation to recognize redrawing the map, eighty years ago?, and has been involved, ready to go to war to support the newly declared nation, since then.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker
It is disappointing the way the US aids Israel without much regard to their actions. I understand not to take military action against Israel, no one in NATO has had the courage to do that. But withholding aid wouldn't take much courage. Instead about the most any of the NATO countries will do is say, no no you shouldn't do that.Quote:
Originally Posted by TysonLPrice
I'm not quite as condemning. I think for most of the history of Modern day Israel, providing them with the support they needed was the right thing to do. Without it you'd have seen a genocide going in the other direction as the surrounding states would have wiped it out. I don't think that's the situation now though and a change in foreign policy is overdue.Quote:
yes, that makes the US scum for suppling the weapons and supporting it
Now there I'm with you. You've only got to listen to him and his Generals speak to realise they simply don't view Palestinians (or Lebanese for that matter) as people.Quote:
If that is true he is a real piece of scum, up there with Putin when it come to civilians.
I also have to disagree with some of that. The US disregarded the lives of the people that were already living there and allowed the taking of their land. When they fight back we say "providing them with the support they needed was the right thing to do"? And saying the Jews were there first doesn't fly with me. The Palestinians were living there at the time.Quote:
Originally Posted by FunkyDexter
I agree with that bit except that it wasn't just the US. Us Brits are just as guilty on that bit. So is most of Europe.Quote:
The US disregarded the lives of the people that were already living there
This bit I hear often and I feel it's an incomplete picture. Both Jews and Muslims (and Christians to a lesser extent) had been living in the area for centuries. "Israelis" and "Palestinians" had not been living there because neither state existed prior to WW2. At best they were amorphous and overlapping regions subsumed into the Ottoman Empire.Quote:
saying the Jews were there first doesn't fly with me. The Palestinians were living there at the time.
Indeed, depending on how you view things you can argue that the modern state of Israel precedes the modern state of Palestine since Palestine wasn't recognised as a State until the 80s (88, I think from memory). Again, though, this would be an incomplete picture as it did exist as an identity. That's a bit of an amorphous concept though. It certainly doesn't make the case that Israel's right of existence should, in any way, trump Palestine's but it does serve to illustrate how muddy the socio politics of the area are.
What I do think you can argue is that the mass importation of displaced Jews to the area was always going to be problematic and was going to lead to conflict. You could argue that it shouldn't have been done at all but you should consider what better option you'd have advocated for in a post holocaust world - I honestly don't have a better answer, just a whole bunch of equally bad ones. Assuming you accept it was the best of a set of bad options I think you can definitely argue that the West was horribly cavalier in its implementation and just kicked a lethal can down the road.
I also think that you can (and should) argue that, post the establishment of Israel, it's continued expansion via illegal settlement has been morally wrong and is something we should have been loudly condemning for at least 50 years.
Very true and I admit I over simplify the whole issue. It has many layers and politics were involved I'm not up on. It sure is a bloody mess now though and I only see it getting worse. I think that Israel is going to take actions any day now that they know will force the US to fight for them. Maybe Iranian oil fields or nuclear weapons facilities.
Well, I tend to over nuance this issue so let's call it a draw. I do think this is an issue where nuance matters but sometimes I stop seeing the forest for the trees. To be clear, I think that Israel has been a far greater villain in the history of this region that Palestine has. Whether it's been a greater villain than Iran - I'm not so sure.Quote:
I over simplify the whole issue
I don't think so but I'm really not confident on that. I certainly think we're looking at a ground invasion of Lebanon (which could get REALLY bloody given Hezbollah's numbers and combat experience) and I suspect rocket/air strikes on Iran. And then there'll be the ensuing reprisals and so on. Whether Iran and Israel will engage with each other on the ground is up for debate and I don't think conflict between Iran and Israel will be enough to draw the US into direct conflict - Israel can stand up on it's own in that scenario, albeit likely at a high cost in men and materials.Quote:
I think that Israel is going to take actions any day now that they know will force the US to fight for them.
But
A lot depends on the reaction of the other Islamic states in the region. At the moment most of the noises are in support of Israel rather than Iran and a lot of the Islamic states have really had enough of Iran, particularly it's involvement in Syria. If that holds they'll stay out of it which will probably isolate the conflict to Israel and Iran. But it's a highly delicate situation and if Israel crosses any lines that those states have set for themselves (no idea what those lines would be), they could easily switch and then Israel could be genuinely threatened. In that case, yeah, I think the US would very likely step in on Israel's side. Really not a comfortable thought.
Israel and Iran really don't share much of a border. Not much at all, really. In fact, to have a ground war between the two, some other country would have to be involved. To have a real air war between the two, some other country would have to be involved (or totally ignore all the stuff going on above them), and while they could have a naval engagement, neither side is really equipped for such a fight.
I'm thinking, if they have a ground war, it'll take place in Lebanon. E.g. Israel invades Southern Lebanon in response to the recent Hezbollah attacks (quite likely, I think), Iran posts troops to Lebanon in defence (unlikely, I think). I think we're actually far more likely to see a proxy ground war and the US would be unlikely to get drawn into that.
Lebanon does seem like the only likely location. Jordan has managed to stay out of this conflict. Good for them.
The Shahab-3 is based on the North Korean missile Nodong. It has a range of about 900 kilometers (560 miles). It has a nominal payload of 1,000 kg (2,200 lb). An improved version of the Shahab-3, renamed the Ghadr-1, began flight testing in 2004. Several variants of the GHADR-1 have appeared, each slightly modified to improve reliability and ease of operation. Most of Iran's Shahab-3 missiles are believed to have been converted into Ghadr missiles. Ghadr extended Iran's range to about 1,600 kilometers (1,000 miles).
Russia's GDP is $2 trillion, Israel's is $500 billion, Iran's is $400 billion.
Russia does not have so many capabilities to launch 400 missiles at the same time.
When will the world war end? I feel that it may last for 5 to 10 years.
Eventually, it becomes more and more difficult and unstable to make money.In particular, it has a greater impact on foreign trade.
Maybe from Trump to Biden, they cannot control the outcome of this war. They may even, ah, hope that the war will last as long as possible.
The most unsuccessful approach when there is a ground war? Unless they are ready to take over in full, and then those two countries merge into one.The best forces, like the German Blitzkrieg, could blow up a city with a plane, and they surrendered. Now it's a missile attack.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker
The war between Russia and Ukraine is mainly about Ukraine's use of various drones or at sea. Ghost missile.
Drones are too small, and it's very expensive for you to use interceptors. There is no specific interception system for UAVs.
So if a Russian aircraft carrier goes to the Black Sea, it may be sunk by Ukrainian drones or some small artillery shells.
The United States is hoping that the Middle East and Russia will become more and more chaotic. In the end, only the United States, Britain, Germany, France and China are relatively safe in the world, and other places are full of wars.Of course, Canada is also very safe.
Which country's economy will be set back 30 years by war? The position of the United States as the world hegemony is becoming more and more stable.
Even if everyone joins NATO, it may be that 150 countries join NATO in the end. Finally, NATO, Russia and other small countries are at war with each other here.
You left out Australia and New Zealand. Being surrounded on all sides by fish is pretty good.
Russia, yes. The Middle East, I don't think so. If the Middle East becomes more chaotic it's actually the USA's ally that becomes more exposed, not it's opponents.Quote:
The United States is hoping that the Middle East and Russia will become more and more chaotic.
For an ally to fight its enemy, the United States provides weapons or makes more money from selling them.
If an underworld organization gives bonuses to their thugs or provides all kinds of humanitarian assistance, they will think that you, the boss, are very powerful. You are really protecting us.
? In September, Israel carried out sustained air strikes and mass assassinations in Lebanon, killing Hezbollah leader Nasrallah, and on October 1, Israel launched a so-called "limited ground invasion" of southern Lebanon. According to local media reports, 1 million of the 5.8 million Lebanese population have been displaced, and the tragedy in Gaza over the past year seems to be repeating itself in Lebanon.
Since 2024, whenever a diplomatic, political solution to the Middle East conflict has been in sight, Israel has taken the initiative to intensify the cycle of violence and prevent peace from coming. In April, based on the domestic public opinion rebound and election pressure, the Biden administration put pressure on Israel to end the conflict as soon as possible, and Israel immediately attacked the Iranian Embassy in Damascus, the capital of Syria, provoking Iran to respond with missiles; In July, 14 Palestinian factions signed the Beijing Declaration on Ending Division and Strengthening Palestinian National Unity in Beijing, and the international momentum for a peaceful settlement of the Palestinian-Israeli conflict was strengthened. Then Israel assassinated Fuad Shukur, a senior military commander of Hezbollah, and Ismail Haniyeh, a leader of Hamas. Israel's assassination of Haniyeh was particularly provocative because it took place in Tehran, the capital of Iran, just hours after Iran's new president was sworn in.
The reason why Israel wants to induce the United States to exchange fire with Iran is to fundamentally prevent the "denuclearization of Israel" derived from the "denuclearization of Iran". On September 24, Iranian President Masood Pezeshitsyan said at the UN General Assembly that Iran is willing to resume negotiations on the Iranian nuclear agreement. The important external factor for Iran to develop nuclear weapons from the very beginning is to deal with the potential nuclear threat of Israel. According to Western think tanks, Israel currently has about 90 nuclear warheads.
I don't like seeing this, https://www.cnn.com/2024/10/13/polit...ops/index.html
Seems like the US is making it easier for Israel to avoid any consequences for killing civilians in other countries. Instead of condemning them for their actions in Gaza we are making it safer for them to continue.
Well the US not only backs Israel but we are backing their god (Or at least half their bible :p). That is another level of support that complicates things. That makes it easy to inflict suffering on the "non believers".Quote:
Originally Posted by wes4dbt
The US is certainly sending mixed messages. Send troops and military aid one day and then threaten to restrict aid a couple of days later.
https://www.cnn.com/2024/10/15/polit...ter/index.html
Makes me think the elections are playing into these moves. But that just a guess.
I'd say they are, the democrats are just trying to keep it from exploding for a few more weeks.Quote:
Originally Posted by wes4dbt
Yeah, giving them a 30 day deadline, which falls neatly AFTER the election.
Israel's arrogance just continues to grow. Alone with the ease at which they justify killing civilians. https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cy43z81nnvlo
I'm surprise that except for Iran, all the other neighboring countries are keeping a very low profile and have avoided involvement in this situation. I don't really know much about the political situation they have with Gaza, Lebanon and Iran. But none of them seem eager to help them.
I would guess that the situation could be considered fraught, strained, or both. Hezbollah is an Iranian proxy that fought in Syria, so Syria can't be too eager to engage, nor would any of the Sunni countries like the UAE or Saudi Arabia. They probably wouldn't mind somebody sticking it to Israel, but they probably want it to be somebody OTHER than Hezbollah.
Israel banned UNRWA
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/...l-to-ban-unrwa
Genocide comes to mind...
However this turns out, there will be no winners. Not even close.
They're use to no one winning. After 75 years of no one winning. I can sort of understand Israeli's turning a blind eye to the murder of innocent Palestinians. They have dehumanized them, all they've ever know is battling against them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker
But why the rest of the world is letting this mass murder continue or even lend support has no valid justification.
Other than condemnation what can anyone else do? The U.N. is useless in this situation. Netanyahu thumbs his nose at the US, what can anyone else do if he won't listen to them? Other than point out the inhumanity of it all.Quote:
Originally Posted by wes4dbt
We could certainly stop aiding them. My GUESS is that Israel is also reliant on a large amount of imported goods. These things could be withheld. This may put a hardship on the population as a whole but I don't think that's a totally bad thing. Right now they're sitting back under their "iron dome" with very little negative effects from the on going conflicts. It makes it very easy for the majority of Israeli's to justify the mass murder of the Palestinians.Quote:
Originally Posted by TysonLPrice
I was referring to the "rest of the world".Quote:
Originally Posted by wes4dbt
The US continues to aid Israel. I guess the threats of withholding aid are just for show. But the rest of the world is also turning a blind eye to the killing in Gaza. The Palestinians are just disposable I guess.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world...aza-palestine/
I don't think Israel will get any holdback till January. Trump says it will stop the wars so will have to see.
But for now, it's business as usual.
In retrospect, from day one.Quote:
Originally Posted by wes4dbt
I've read that Hamas is ready to end the war and sign a piece treaty due to Trump election.
Cannot confirm tho.
I read Pharaoh freed the Jews from slavery because Trump got elected.
Can't confirm that tho. lol
They are asking for Trumps help. They aren't asking for a cease fire "due to Trump election".Quote:
Originally Posted by sapator
Probably has more to due with Israel's relentless attacks and a loss of so many members.Quote:
A senior Hamas official has declared the group is "ready for a ceasefire" in the war-ravaged Gaza, and urged incoming US president Donald Trump to put "pressure" on Israel to reach a truce.
It follows indications earlier this week that Israel and Hezbollah are close to reaching a deal to end fighting in Lebanon.
That an an utter lack of interest in a cease fire on the part of Israel. Hamas stands to lose everything, so it is little wonder they want a cease fire. Heck, they may have already lost everything. They had control of Gaza. If Israel were to completely withdraw from Gaza today, it isn't clear whether Hamas would be able to regain control. Lots of competing gangs over there, apparently. Gaza is a bone that a lot of dogs are fighting over, some big and some small.
On the other hand, Qatar has stated that neither side is negotiating in good faith, which is certainly the way it appears, so maybe Hamas asking for anything is just more of the same.
Ye I haven't read it thoroughly, I just sought it out later due to wes been a smarty.
So tomato tomato it was close enough, closer than the Pharaoh illusions.
Have a great weekend and God bless America :wave:
We're gonna need it, the whole world of us.
Didn't the ICC already charge Netanyahu with war crimes several months ago??
https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cly2exvx944o
It doesn't seem to carry much weight. The US quicky rejected it.
I don't know how you can't call what Israel has and is doing to the Palestinians any thing other than war crimes. But the world has no desire to hold Israel accountable.
It baffles me, not that the world will ignore war crimes, but there is usually a significant benefit in doing so. I've said it before, I just don't see what Israel brings to the table.
More than 120 countries are members of the court. The United States, China, India, Russia and Israel are not.
IIC also has a warrant for Putin but to be fair it should also have one for Biden trying to start 3rd world war.
In short IIC is IIC(rap)
When or if the Israeli's ever satisfy their blood lust in Gaza and neighboring countries, what happens? I mean, Gaza cities are just rubble. Palestinians are going to be indirectly dying from these Israeli attacks for years. Meanwhile we pretend it's justified.
https://www.aljazeera.com/gallery/20...ttacks-on-gaza
I guess after 75+ years of continuous war, the lives of the "others" become insignificant.
Wait until Trump is in office...What little restraint the US was able to exert will be gone. Trump has already said Netanyahu can do whatever he needs to do.Quote:
Originally Posted by wes4dbt
I actually doubt Trump's going to make this particular situation much worse. Truth be told the USA (and the rest of the West fwiw) have exerted pretty much zero influence anyway. A few countries, notably South Africa, have tried to exert real pressure but mostly we've just sat on our hands.Quote:
Wait until Trump is in office...What little restraint the US was able to exert will be gone.
How DOES one make this situation worse?
The most influence we've had is negative influence. We've given aid and weapons. I guess in court we would be called an accessory to the crimes.Quote:
Originally Posted by FunkyDexter
I know I've said it before in this thread but it just baffles me, why do continue to support Israel???
Really...that is how short memories are:Quote:
Originally Posted by FunkyDexter
"On December 6, 2017, President Trump formally recognized Jerusalem as the capital of Israel and stated that the American embassy would be moved from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem."
That was just the beginning. You have to be kidding. Netanyahu now has "carte blanche". A moron whose priority is that last thing he heard is in charge. How fast idiots forget...And I do not mean you.
I don't think memories are short at all. I, agree with FD that it won't be much worse. Basically, what IS much worse, at this point? Israel is more restrained by their manpower issues than from anything else that I can see.
According to NPRQuote:
Basically, what IS much worse, at this point?
I guess there is more that can be destroyed. I don't think Trump will have much effect either way. Maybe Trump will do something positive for a change and cut off our funding to Israel. But for most of the Palestinians the current conditions are on the verge of being fatal.Quote:
60% of buildings, nearly 70% of orchards and 68% of roads have been damaged or destroyed by the conflict
https://www.npr.org/2024/10/09/g-s1-...the%20conflict.
That article has an interesting interactive map showing the spread of damage.
Honestly, I think it's inertia (And that is incredibly depressing in what it says about human nature). For most of the last century, not supporting Israel would likely have been worse than supporting it so there's an ingrained thinking that Israel needs protection. I don't believe that's been true for a long time but the instinctive response is still there. Couple that with powerful lobbying and I'm afraid there's no real impetus to turn the ship around.Quote:
why do continue to support Israel???
Don't get me wrong, I don't think Trump will be a friend to the Palestinians and would almost certainly make things worse for them if it was possible. My doubt is whether it's possible, at least in practical terms. I've been saying for a long time that this was a potential genocide, I think we're pretty close to being able to drop the potential bit. It's hard to get worse than that.Quote:
Really...that is how short memories are:
What can get worse? Trump will OK Netanyahu taking/annexing more land. Maybe starting as "buffer" zones. Then Israel will finish wiping out the entire people. That will make things worse. Then feel emboldened by Trump to become even more aggressive against their neighbors. Then guess what, the orange headed moron sends in the military. That would be worse. I would even say anything that Trump gets involved in will get worse :pQuote:
Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker
I suppose once Canada is the 51st state and we own Greenland things will be better though :rolleyes:
What I mean by memories being short is the chaos Trump creates everyday. He abandoned the Kurds over a single phone call from Turkey. I'm pretty sure he is going to abandon Ukraine. Every single day will be some kind of lie he says will be magnified. I think people have forgotten. One morning he will tweet some major change in Israeli policy no one saw coming.
So what? They were already talking about that, and Biden wasn't pushing back even lightly. The difference between staying silent and winking isn't much.Quote:
Originally Posted by TysonLPrice
Why bother with "then". Some elements in the Israeli government are openly talking about it, and have been for months. Biden has stayed silent. Trump will also stay silent. If Israel decides to do that, the US won't stop them. That was already established, and it won't change.Quote:
Then Israel will finish wiping out the entire people.
They can't very well, because they are stretched too thin from a manpower perspective and know it.Quote:
even more aggressive against their neighbors.
That's unlikely. Trump very much does NOT want to get involved with anything overseas, and he doesn't want to get involved with anything that takes more than a few minutes. He's been president before, and showed that pretty clearly: One airstrike? Fine. Anything that requires extended focus? Nope.Quote:
Then guess what, the orange headed moron sends in the military.
Yeah, if people think he can focus or remain coherent, then they HAVE forgotten, and he hasn't gotten better at that. You seem to think he'll be focused on this. He won't. He just won't care, so long as it requires more effort than a tweet. But that isn't any different from what Biden has accomplished over there. Israel hasn't been constrained in any way and to any extent, except so far as what they have the manpower to do. They're still a tiny country trying to take action in two different directions at once, plus a series of even further flung air campaigns. They couldn't do even that without US assistance...but they HAVE been doing that, which means they have been getting US assistance. Nothing will be significantly worse between having an ineffectual fretter in the white house and a chaotic clown with no attention span in there. Neither one will do anything effective.Quote:
I think people have forgotten. One morning he will tweet some major change in Israeli policy no one saw coming.