Looks like we'll have to update our vaccine bingo cards:
https://www.defenseone.com/technolog...riants/360089/
https://www.army.mil/article/252890/...pment_strategy
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Looks like we'll have to update our vaccine bingo cards:
https://www.defenseone.com/technolog...riants/360089/
https://www.army.mil/article/252890/...pment_strategy
I think (reading your whole reply), that this is basically the only thing, where we have a different opinion.Quote:
Originally Posted by jpbro
Sometimes you have to get your (mis-)information from "sources you never heard of",
just to find some more background-info on some topics (because the official channels don't mention them).
To give an example, when baka was posting this link here:
https://www.oann.com/fauci-hhs-offic...from-oct-2019/
... I never thought that he was under any obligation, to "verify the source for me" (that's my job) -
or to "present it better".
Though it was *immediately dismissed* by some guys here, because "the source was dubious"
(personally never heard of "OAN" to this day, nor am I reading "QAnon"-sites) -
though nevertheless did I listen to the *content* they discussed there
(which was not "produced by OAN" nor was it "manipulated by OAN").
The original source is the "Milken Institute", with the full lenght video here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-kFJijSgXnQ
To me, neither the cut version which was commented on the OAN-site,
nor the original, longer video (without any "biased interpretation by OAN"),
was fullfilling any criteria which made me think, that the whole thing was a "plandemic" -
but it certainly was "disturbing enough, to watch these guys talk" - two month, before the matter hit the fan...
(all primarily concerned about "big enough budgets" to be able to "help humanity"...
thinking up all kind of different ways, "how to make the flu sexy again").
Olaf
I think I am witnessing the end of Democracy in this country. All across the country republican states are changing voting laws to favor their constituents. The republican party already stated that if they win 2022 they are going to spend the next two years leading up 2024 investigating the corrupt Biden administration. A large part of the country believes the election was stolen and Biden is not a legal president. The republicans in congress will not support any legislation so the democrats look bad in 2024 therefore change is stagnant in a changing world. Here is a real possibility being discussed by republicans...win the house in 2022 and make Trump the speaker of the house. That would make Trump third in the line of succession of the president. So in theory Trump could be president again in less than about three years without being elected. There went our democracy.Quote:
Originally Posted by jpbro
Think I'm kidding? January 6th was just a warm up to the end of our democracy and half the country doesn't believe it happened.
Unfortunately, that is spot on.Quote:
Originally Posted by jpbro
He absolutely is! If someone's going to cite source in a debate it's incumbent on them to at least check that source is reliable. Anything less is misrepresentation and dishonest.Quote:
I never thought that he was under any obligation, to "verify the source for me"
Sadly, I agree. I think there's a very real chance you won't have a functional democracy by 2025. And it's not a fringe opinion, it's endorsed by the International Institute for Democracy and Electoral AssistanceQuote:
I think I am witnessing the end of Democracy in this country
Interesting...for those who don't want to click the link it opens with this:Quote:
Originally Posted by FunkyDexter
Quote:
The US has been added to an annual list of “backsliding” democracies for the first time, the International IDEA thinktank has said, pointing to a “visible deterioration” it said began in 2019.
Sure, I agree with that. There is a bandwidth problem though - we only have so much time to sift through all the information we're presented with. I think sometimes we have to outright dismiss certain sources that we've personally determined are too biased or full of you-know-what. Maybe not 100% of the time, as I think it is useful to look from time-to-time at sources we may think are wrong, completely nuts, or otherwise dismissable, but there are only so many hours in the day. It is important to avoid getting trapped in an echo chamber though, as that almost always leads to a mental prison that is very difficult to escape.Quote:
Originally Posted by Schmidt
I don't have time to watch the video now, but I will later (there's that bandwidth issue!)Quote:
Originally Posted by Schmidt
Me two, well I made it a few lines more but then stopped.Quote:
I stopped reading after this:
Maybe give us a little heads up that your having some fun. Your thread started out just like many before. Dismissive with an air of I'm more intelligent and you can't fool me. I'm all for a good farce, maybe I'll go back and read it.Quote:
Then you missed all the fun!
If you do, watching it from minute 30 onwards is enough IMO.Quote:
Originally Posted by jpbro
Olaf
Thanks for the info - saving half an hour is good. I'm definitely guilty of avoiding videos because they are generally less information dense than text and I just don't have the time and patience to sit through many of them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Schmidt
Sorry, I guess I'm no Jonathan Swift, but it was an attempt at satire.Quote:
Originally Posted by wes4dbt
Now here I disagree. I used to occasionally post on BoardGameGeek and the political sub forum used to have rule where you used green text if you were being sarcastic. Honestly, it just lead to really boring and overly earnest discussion. I kinda like that can stick our tongues on our cheeks without having to telegraph it and, if we get the occasional miss-understanding as a result, it's easily cleared up after the event.Quote:
Maybe give us a little heads up that your having some fun.
Then you clearly didn't actually bother to watch the OAN article. I agree with you about the Milken Institute talk. It's a scientific discussion laying out how pandemics are inevitable, that sooner or later we'd experience one on the current scale and, for that reason, we should be developing a general purpose influenza vaccine (because they thought an influenza variant would be most likely) - it's an even handed scientific article.Quote:
To me, neither the cut version which was commented on the OAN-site,
nor the original, longer video (without any "biased interpretation by OAN"),
was fullfilling any criteria which made me think, that the whole thing was a "plandemic"
OAN, on the other hand, spun it such that the opening line of was "Newly uncovered video shows Anthony Fauci and other HHA officials discussing how a new virus from China could be used to enforce universal vaccination back in October 2019". This is dripping with implication of a "plandemic" and is exactly demonstrative of how miss-representative OAN is. It carries on in kind with constant insinuation. You also might notice the subtlety that the never refer to "Doctor Fauci", only "Anthony Fauci", because heaven forbid they acknowledge that he's, you know, an medical doctor and therefore a source actually worthy of your attention. Those of us who are familiar with OAN knew exactly what we were dealing with and were right to dismiss it.
But here's the thing, we did check the sources. We already knew what OAN is. I personally checked Dr David Martin and the story behind the Vor Der Leyens. So your objection is not that we're dismissing source that we know or have verified to be unreliable. Your objection is that we're not blindly accepting them
It is under the biggest attack that I've ever witnessed. But democracy has been under attack before. The anti Sedition Act of 1918, the McCarhty hearing and many others. I think it will get worse but I also think it will get better. Once the Republicans take over congress, I doubt all the unhappy people will have there dreams fulfilled and then the Democrats will dangle a carrot for them to chase and the sentiment will swing back in their direction. Also I don't get the feeling that the majority of the younger generation is in this current Republican mindset.Quote:
I think I am witnessing the end of Democracy in this country.
I've said this before, I'm amazed how much damaged one person can due, though it does take an audience willing(maybe even eager) to believe the lies. Why so many people are willing to believe the lies is the problem that needs to be solved.
This has been, Deep Thoughts from Wes :wave:
I think it would be more fun if you were Taylor Swift. You could just share your comments in music videosQuote:
Originally Posted by jpbro
Please don't give me any ideas!Quote:
Originally Posted by wes4dbt
I'm so sorry to hear that.Quote:
Now here I disagree.
I think the concern is that that won't matter. The concern is their vote will be supressed or even outright disregarded so it won't make a difference what their mindset is. I don't think that concern is provable before the event but I can certainly see moves in that direction.Quote:
I don't get the feeling that the majority of the younger generation is in this current Republican mindset.
Couple that with the phenomenon that a significant portion of the electorate simply won't accept an outcome they didn't vote for (and I think this is now a "both ways" thing - If the repubs get in without a clear majority on the popular vote in 2024, dem voters are really going to call the validity of the election into question) and you've got a pretty toxic mix set up.
I don't think your democracy id dead, but it is in real danger.
Edit>I just wanted to cite the next bit from that OAN article because it makes my point much more strongly "As many of us have long suspected, this pandemic and all the resulting chaos was never about fighting a new virus and protecting public safety. This entire exercise has been a government sanctioned effort to strip Americans of their rights and force us to follow their orders without question, or else". It's hyperbolic in the extreme and has literally no connection to that Milken Institute talk.
I think one of the biggest problems with American democracy is that you have only 2 parties that essentially split the vote evenly. A third party would tip the balance, even if they only get a few seats. It would force the other parties to compromise a bit to get things done instead of just stonewalling.
There are other parties, like the Independent Party, Libertarian Party. But they are very small compared to the Reps and Dems.Quote:
Originally Posted by jpbro
Why I oughta!Quote:
I'm so sorry to hear that.
Let's get back to covid for a moment.
Most of the EU countries that are starting lockdowns are over 70% vaccinated.
Why? What's going on with the Euro sheep (it's intended like ship but since we lambed the thread..)?
I mean we will possibly go for a lockdown in less than a month here.Both vax and non vax.
So how do you call a uninformed person that does not eat meat? A Beeegetarian. :p
If you really want to see how misrepresentative OAN is being, listen to the "newly uncovered" (for which read "published openly on YouTube 2 years ago") Milken Institute discussion at the following timestamps:-
41:13
41:55
They are arguing the exact opposite of the OAN portrayal.
are any EU actually going into lockdown? I've seen a few bringing in travel bans but no lockdowns. This situation is changing fast, though, so I may have just missed it.Quote:
Most of the EU countries that are starting lockdowns are over 70% vaccinated.
I did not mean that they are in a lockdown,my bad, I meant they are starting to prepare, take measures as they did the previous years. The lockdown is highly possible for Greece but Greece is the "experiment" of EU.
Belgium,Austria,Germany,Portugal,Cyprus and of course our idiots are doing so and they have high vax rates.
As globalism winds down, COVID is only accelerating it. This puts the CCP into collapse:
https://youtu.be/Aj00flkpAGw
It also doesn't bode well for the coastal urban globalists in the US who scream about "democracy" when what they are really after is CCP-style autocracy and its self-colonialism bent on sucking the life out of "the hinterlands" they can't relate to in their childish notions of how an economy works. They are already beginning to find that bread and milk doesn't just magically grow on store shelves as they imagined:
https://youtu.be/ZWDV-p74Bhg
Bidenism was always a dead-end. It's was over before it began, and Biden's actual policies demonstrate that even he knows this and probably always did.
So...you're saying you're none too swift?Quote:
Originally Posted by jpbro
I'm not sure that pun is totally cross-cultural.
Hey now, I resemble that remark!
Sheep vs ship? Are you talking about a shear hulk?Quote:
Originally Posted by sapator
Possibly...Who's asking? :ehh:
No I have no idea of that remark of a crane, I was referring to the similar sounding of the words but I can go with sip also if you prefer.
Sheep Ship sip - Sheep ship sip- Sheep Ship sip,Sheep Ship sip Sheep, Si sisi si si siiiiiiiip (field music)!
Oh yeah, that's definitely happening. I'm pretty sure we're going into one either just after Christmas or just after the New Year.Quote:
I meant they are starting to prepare
Trouble is, by the time we really know whether Omicron is lethal enough to merit a lockdown, it'll be too late to have a short one and we'll have to do a long one as we have previously. The logical conclusion from that is that we should do a short "circuit breaker" lockdown now. But if it then turns out to be very mild, as early stats suggest, we've done a load of economic damage for nothing. The lag and asymptomatic spread are a nightmare because they mean every decision has to be either uninformed or late.
It is if you are fast on the uptake...Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker
And so it begins.
Tomorrow Greece goes on masks everywhere for everyone and double or the white masks for public transport and markets.
In the new year more measures to come with time restrictions, local lockdowns and SMS to go somewhere.
Suddenly the vaxbies feel like they have been duped.I get complains and whining from my circle, they get a, "you voted for them".
Tomorrow,Tomorrow , I'll mask you, Tomorrow.
I agree. And it makes it easy for the whiners and complainers to use this fact to continue their endless droning of how inconvenient these efforts to save lives are.Quote:
The lag and asymptomatic spread are a nightmare because they mean every decision has to be either uninformed or late.
Yup.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eduardo-
I also think, that there's a very high probability, that the "severe-illness-risk" of the Omicron-variant is "back down at normal flu-level".
One can quite clearly observe that in the following Chart -
(which shows a *significant* drop in the mortality-rate in the last month, where Omicron replaced the D-variant nearly in its entirety across SouthAfrica):
https://ourworldindata.org/explorers...e&country=~ZAF
Now, let's sit down and watch - how the corporate-media will "spin this story to you".
Olaf
The image is clear, it seems that Omicron prevents deaths from Delta:
Attachment 183411
right now, at time moment, here, they really try to push vaccine on you, telling omicron is fatal and all that.
it seems like they are in a hurry, as this time around they are acting "very fast", like they know omicron is weak but want to "sell" it to people to get the vaccine (Im sure they have deals that x=vaccination equal to money in your pocket, corruption at the highest level)
and right now, they letting doctors go, if they would "dare" to say to parents: "I think you don't need to give your child the vaccine"* we are in a dictatorship.
the only difference is, in China you disappear, they put you in a cell and throw away they key, but here, they isolate you, and even dismiss you, and eventually you find yourself without job and opportunities. its a mental prison that will eat your mind bit by bit.
nowhere they try to communicate in a "honest and real" way, if people ask: it seems omicron is not that strong, the response is: it will help you if you take the boost vaccine, giving you better protection against mortality and that you will not spread around a dangerous sickness that could kill off your family and friends.
right now they will spend another $25M that will be used to "make people understand how important it is to take the vaccine". they don't care that "maybe" people don't want it because they have a brain, or because they feel, I want to deal with the virus myself, if I die, its my destiny. or because they don't trust the government anymore. if you keep lying over and over, and if theres corruption all the time, you need to be very stupid to believe in them now.
* it was yesterday news that a doctor was off his job and waiting for inquiry. just because he suggested that theres no need to give the vaccine to a healthy child.
Thought so, too...Quote:
Originally Posted by Eduardo-
What's even more funny (reading your sentence,
assuming that this will become the "established truth" everyone will have to admit to in the end).
At the time Omicron came up, I've read quite a few lines in the news like:
- "extremely dangerous, because of the sheer amount of new mutations, compared to D"
- "such an extreme amount can only happen, when bred in unvaccinated people"
Well, if the latter statement was indeed the case...
(come on, I mean it has to be, since it came over an official channel, verified by "true scientists"),
then a little "thank you" in the direction of the unvaccinated, who "made all this possible",
seems to be in order - wouldn't you agree? ;)
Olaf
100%!!Quote:
Originally Posted by Schmidt
They're spinning it exactly as it is: highly infectious but early indications (which are becoming increasingly reliable) are that the effects are much less serious that previous variants. You're back to looking for arguments to rail against that aren't being made.Quote:
how the corporate-media will "spin this story to you"
Not really although displacement is likely to be an explanation for that drop. There's currently conflicting data, some of which (particularly SA data) appears to show that Omichron displaces Delta and some of which (e.g. the UK) appears to show that it stacks on top. It could be that escalating vaccination rates have driven that drop, or it could be that changing behaviour as people have begun staying at home, not mixing etc is driving it, we don't really know. It's certainly possible, indeed likely, that Omichron is displacing previous variants and we could well be looking at Covid finally becoming endemic, which would be great. We don't really have enough data to draw that conclusion yet though.Quote:
it seems that Omicron prevents deaths from Delta
Extremely infectious, which is a very different premise.Quote:
"extremely dangerous, because of the sheer amount of new mutations, compared to D"
When you're ready to accept the blame for previous lethal spreads, maybe we'll consider it.Quote:
a little "thank you"
The mass media is clearly frightening people, bust mostly without lying.
That what they have been doing from the start of the pandemic.
They say things like:
"The WTO declared it a variant of concern."
Not a lie of course, but for uneducated people (the 99%) that means dangerous.
"Omicron has 26 mutations in the spike protein".
Yes, true, but they don't say that those mutations, it seems, rendered it less dangerous.
"It can escape vaccines immunization".
Yes, true. At this time IDK whether that's a good thing or a bad thing, but it will naturally immunize also to "already" vaccinated.
But what's the effect on the audience? Fear.
"It is extremely infectious."
True. But if you tell them at the same time (or imply, that is the same) that it is so dangerous, people gets frightened.
It is clear what they are doing, that is the same that they have been doing all the time: telling some things and hiding others.
The WHO, FDA, etc, where reporters take the "information" from are the main responsible.
Telling part of the story, and implying things that are not true, to uneducated people, is plain Lying.
It is a whole chain of dishonesty.
The logic doesn't say so.Quote:
Originally Posted by FunkyDexter
The logic is that Omicron will replace all other variants completely, and since it has a so fast speed of spread, after it finds no one to infect, the covid will faint and disappear.
And I hope so. We'll see soon if that happens or not, in a couple of months or so.
I'm a bit worried about far regions, isolated people that can have other variants already and not getting Omicron. Because immunity is likely not to last forever, so we don't want to have the original virus somewhere waiting to come back when the immunity is lower.
One good thing that the scientific community could do, is to store this Omicron variant, that is the remedy that they weren't able to make but that nature did.
Just in case the original virus come back, they could free Omicron again.
As I've said first a couple of months ago, endemic endemic endemic.
Covid will not disappear as all the other flu, covid 1 , flukous3 the return did not disappear (as it's "one of us, one of us", as we knew from day one, no matter what fear where spreading), it will just be endemic.
The good think is vaxbies will stop vaxb, except from higher ages and with medical issues that must vaxb every year as they did before I suppose? So let's shut up and go celebrate xmas :wave:
@Eduardo, I think you don't know what endemic means. It means that covid would continue to exist in the population but would be non-lethal. The common cold and most flus, for example, are endemic. It's what we want to happen.
It won't disappear. No virus in history ever has without the aid of vaccines. The hope is that it becomes endemic.Quote:
Most of the EU countries that are starting lockdowns are over 70% vaccinated.
I believe that was not for me but for Eduardo.
Have a good on Funky merry Xmas, going for a feast .....
Yeah, sorry, our posts crossed and it now looks like I was responding to you. I'll edit to make it clearer.
Happy Chrimbo.
the governments want to keep up with the pandemic. its an opportunity they don't want to lose.
just look here
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o..._hospital_beds
this is what they try to avoid.
telling "we failed the healthcare", or "its impossible to sustain", or "its our fault, our priority was to make the rich richer and we need to cut something" its not something they want to admit, instead:
its the virus that did this, and of course all the evil non-vaccinated people, they create the problems we have in our hospitals.
meanwhile, many healthworkes tells about the condition they where "before" the pandemic, and thats the real problem.
but politicians will never admit to that, they love to blame others.
You really think saying "a variant of concern" is frightening. Of coarse we should be concerned about any new variant until we know it's characteristics. That's not frightening.Quote:
They say things like:
"The WTO declared it a variant of concern."
Not a lie of course, but for uneducated people (the 99%) that means dangerous.
99% are uneducated? You seem to have a very low opinion of peoples intelligence and a very high opinion of yours. Plus all your fears of sinister deeds driving the whole narrative points to you being the frightened.
Of course I know what endemic means.Quote:
Originally Posted by FunkyDexter
Flu doesn't disappear because it mutates a lot (much more than covid). So, it is technically a new disease every year.
The have been many diseases and epidemics in history, long before any vaccine existed.Quote:
Originally Posted by FunkyDexter
also, u need to understand the differences between the viruses.
if you compare polio with influenza A, it means u don't have enough understanding.
if it where that easy we would not have it anymore, just give the vaccine to everyone.
but thats not the case, and the same with covid. its mutate all the time and the vaccine just barely protect.
it seems, no matter what u do, you will get it one way or the other, if not this year, the next.
in the end, you could argue, how good are the vaccines when theres no end.
maybe they don't want to dismiss the vaccines and instead focus on immunology.
but vaccine is a "yearly" income they dont want to lose.
you most understand that the government works for the rich and powerful.
the rich and powerful want stability in their income. a yearly income is what they want.
and that means:
- you have a deadly disease, what can we do to let you live, as long you take our costly medicine?
- if you don't have money to pay? lets forget about it, no need to do research here
- people are healthy? we need to make them unhealthy!
- we have a solution to this disease. lets buy it and make a patent, and bury it somewhere. its not good for our growth.
thats the sick reality.
On the contrary: you don't want to see that reality because that scares you.Quote:
Originally Posted by wes4dbt
I have to accept it because it is obvious, not because I like it, I fear, or whatever.
When you talk to doctors and hear them repeating the same things the media say... you figure what I mean when I say uneducated.Quote:
Originally Posted by wes4dbt
Perhaps I didn't choose the right word. May be "not well informed", is something more precise to what I meant.
Covid doesn't mutate too much.Quote:
Originally Posted by baka
Eight notable variants of SARS-CoV-2 have been found since September 2020 to August 2021 (so during 1 year)
https://www.bmj.com/content/374/bmj.n1971
so, 8 notable variants, of course theres a lot more but not significant enough to care, or too close to any of the early one so its almost the same.
and this article is from august. so a few more after that , with the latest "of interest" omicron.
I call this "mutate all the time" kind of virus... :)
I've posted the curves for Denmark already, which clearly show that their recent "huuuge 4th wave"Quote:
Originally Posted by FunkyDexter
(for the most part, the D-variant) could only have been caused by the vaccinated (which were allowed to mingle unrestricted).
They trusted into exactly the thing you try to convince me of:
- that the unvacced are the main-spreaders
- vaccinated the hell out of their people (reducing the group of unvacced to *very* low percentages)
- and (for that reason) introduced a "free mingling for all" in the summer-months
- now all the vacced were "running naked, frolicking in the fields" (SCNR, but I love that picture of sapators)
And in November/December they are wondering "where that 4th wave came from"?
Sapator informed you already, that in Greece (since November) the unvacced were "shut away entirely".
Still the "curves were going up, unaffected" (with only the vacced running around "on green pastures",
or whatever they have in Greece).
Get real, please.
Edit: FWIW, here the current infection-curve of Denmark again:
https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/b...t&country=~DNK
Showing, that:
- in Dec. 2020-23 their second wave topped out at: ~45Thsd infected (unvacced: 100%)
- in Dec. 2021-21 their fourth wave seems to top-out at: ~117Thsd infected (unvacced at that point: ~10%)
How you will "explain away" that overall-increase of nearly factor 30, is beyond me.
(IMO, only 10% of unvacced could never have caused a near 3-fold top-out of the 4th wave, compared to the 2nd, where nobody was vacced)
Olaf
No, flu mutates much more (in shorter periods). Immunization does not last because the viruses change too much.Quote:
Originally Posted by baka
I never wrote about a competition between them.
I wrote that covid "also" mutates. I think 8 "notable" variants in 1 year is for me "a lot".
and in just 1½ year we got a variation that is so different that we need a completely new vaccine.
that means, we could get a new variation in ½-2 years that is completely different again.
and since omicron is spreading around very fast, almost unnatural fast, it also helps generate mutations faster, even if the virus is not as fatal, a mutation could be again, and we are back again with a delta-version or worse.
No. AKAIK it is not much, compared to flu and cold.Quote:
Originally Posted by baka
Also, we would need to consider how much it mutates.
Because the important point is if infection from previous variants provides enough immunization.
From mid 2020 the information was that covid was quite stable.
The first variants appeared in late 2020.
Also, another important point is how many people will remain infected, because if the immunization last enough, and the virus does not mutate soon enough, and at a point there are too few people infected to allow (probabilistically) mutations to occur, the only possible outcome is the virus to go extinct.
The point is time. 1 1/2 year is a lot. Because in three months there will be no person to infect because everyone will be already immunized.Quote:
Originally Posted by baka
That's a possibility. That it mutates too much too soon, and thus the immunization from previous Omicron infection is not effective anymore.Quote:
Originally Posted by baka
That's not what have been happening so far. But infecting so many people increases that probability (to mutate too much, into a new variant).
That would be unfortunate but is a possibility.
yeah, its a possibility, even if small.
but something is telling me that "if" it mutates it will be something even weaker.
and if its something more dangerous my suspicion is that its not natural but humans again that are not done with the pandemic.
anyway, its good news with omicron and still bad news what the media and politicians are doing.
lets hope for a big wave that will flush away the corrupted politicians.
https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1...1267966v2.full
some facts:
The negative estimates in the final period arguably suggest different behaviour and/or exposure patterns in the vaccinated and unvaccinated cohorts causing underestimation of the VE. This was likely the result of Omicron spreading rapidly initially through single (super-spreading) events causing many infections among young, vaccinated individuals.
read the whole study for more info.
Sorry...misunderstood the thread.