Corona virus, China major city lockdowns, etc.

New Pfiser papers.
Over 100 new unpublished side effects found.
https://www.covidhub.ch/wp-content/u...ort-Pfizer.pdf
https://dailytelegraph.co.nz/news/pf...o-its-vaccine/

But the document says somewhere that the vaccine is safe so you should not be alarmed.

And now I understand why you hyper rooting on only a few pages per month. Imagine if after 55 years the final page goes out saying that, eventually the vaccine will kill everyone in the next 10 years.
In that case you won't be here but maybe I will (not with my food habits but anywho...) and I will be bouncing up and down with my walking stick saying "I told you so!!" but there won't be anyone left. :D

So here is a down payment just tin case... I TOLD YOU SO!!!!!!!!!! :cry:

Don't expect any return on your investment. After all, the Pfizer vaccine is an mRNA vaccine. You are creating mRNA all the time in every cell in your body.

Oh yeah, you WILL die eventually, too, so perhaps it's the mRNA that is killing us all. OH NOES!!!!

Eventually will but no one would be here to rub it in his face. That's a bummer.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker

The bit about it being funded by the US is disingenuous, at best.

---

You're not well-informed then...

Because nobody in the science-community disputes that fact anymore...
Here is the document: https://www.documentcloud.org/docume...e-grant-notice
(the Wuhan Institute is mentioned as a subcontractor, the first time at the top of pg.#5)

Also nobody disputes anymore, that "manipulation of Vanilla-Corona Bat-viruses" took place in Wuhan (with that funding).
The only thing they currently discuss is, whether the amount of manipulation can be considered "Gain-Of-Function", or not.

I personally don't care, whether they label that research as "GOF" in the end, or not.

Fact is, that it took place in Wuhan.
Fact is, that the "humanized mice" they mentioned in one report (which were exposed to one of their derivations),
had a 10000-fold increase of inflammation in their lungs (compared to the Vanilla-BAT-Corona-viruses).

Fact is, that the Wuhan-institute is the one lab on the planet, which was specialized in the research (and manipulation of) Bat-hosted Corona-Viruses.
Fact is, that Covid "as we know it" originated in Wuhan.

I leave it to you, to apply occams razor here.

Olaf

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Schmidt

You're not well-informed then...


Olaf

---

Did you read what I read, or did you stop at that word? I didn't say the US didn't fund it, my reply could have been summed up as, "Duh!" Of COURSE the US funded research into viruses, and we SHOULD. That was the part you seem to have skipped over.

This work is being done all over, including in the US. A few years back there was some investigation into how many mutations would take a relatively benign virus to a non-benign virus. At the moment, I forget which it was, but I think it is from a common variation of the flu to the Spanish Flu, but I could have the wrong disease. That research was conducted somewhere in the US midwest (Wisconsin comes to mind, but it was several years ago), and the number of mutations needed was very low.

So, yeah, I know the US is funding that research and I believe the US SHOULD be funding that research.

How much do they pay you?.... :lol:
Errr, I mean yes US should fund , so why that idiot denied everything at first and then when the hammer was falling down he acclaim it?Was it because
A)He was an idiot.
B)They should not have funded that program?

And all in all I wouldn't have a problem if you just kept you viruses in you back yard but as it showed they can escape. Unless moving your dirty laundry to China and hope for the best was the initial thought.
I remember saying a year or so in this thread that you should apologize for spreading the virus.I was mocked of course. Back then nothing was known about the funding and such. Why did i said it? Because the press said it was not happening, to cope with another free press thing we talked before.
So I'm still waiting for that apology...

Quote:

---

You're not well-informed then...

Because nobody in the science-community disputes that fact anymore...
Here is the document: https://www.documentcloud.org/docume...e-grant-notice
(the Wuhan Institute is mentioned as a subcontractor, the first time at the top of pg.#5)

Also nobody disputes anymore, that "manipulation of Vanilla-Corona Bat-viruses" took place in Wuhan (with that funding).
The only thing they currently discuss is, whether the amount of manipulation can be considered "Gain-Of-Function", or not.

I personally don't care, whether they label that research as "GOF" in the end, or not.

Fact is, that it took place in Wuhan.
Fact is, that the "humanized mice" they mentioned in one report (which were exposed to one of their derivations),
had a 10000-fold increase of inflammation in their lungs (compared to the Vanilla-BAT-Corona-viruses).

Fact is, that the Wuhan-institute is the one lab on the planet, which was specialized in the research (and manipulation of) Bat-hosted Corona-Viruses.
Fact is, that Covid "as we know it" originated in Wuhan.

I leave it to you, to apply occams razor here.

Olaf

---

Really?

what your saying here is at the very least disingenuous and at most wilfully ignorant

Your argument might as well be - a lab was doing research on Lung Cancer, we know that they do Lung Cancer research therefore if we use Occam's razor we can say the likely do Pancreatic Cancer research as well.

We dont have any real evidence of it, BUUUUUT they do some other research very similar so you no .....


Your argument is the very worst of arguments, one that takes a logical starting point that states real facts and then extrapolates those facts into deciding that other facts MUST be true, mainly because you dont trust the Chinese or the US government or whoever.

The kind of research you describe ie manipulation of virus's, GOF research is what Virus labs do all over the world. Its common practice.

The jump many seem to have made, to it meaning as this particular lab as it is in Wuhan, and doing corona research likely therefore did research on this particular virus and released it either on purpose or accidently is exactly that a jump based upon distrust mainly of China, rather than evidence that it actually happened.

If you or anybody else has actual evidence of Sars-Cov-2 being manipulated or being present in that lab we would be having a different discussion.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by NeedSomeAnswers

The jump many seem to have made,...

---

I did not make any "jump" - I just listed, what we *currently* know.

I guess there will never be any "absolute proof", how Sars-Cov-2 "as we know it" came to be.

There's only "certain probabilities" on a few scenarios, the most likely being:
1) it originated in bats - and was transferred naturally to "patient 0" (with high probability in Wuhan)
2) it was a lab-escape of one of the variations they produced in their research in Wuhan

against 1) speaks, that:
- transference of natural occuring (unmanipulated) bat-corona-viruses to humans is extremely hard (no proof exists to this day)

for 2) speaks, that:
- the point above being exactly, why "GOF-based manipulations in labs" had to happen in the first place
.. (to make the virus more transmissible to human cells - or as practiced in the Wuhan-lab: to "humanized mice"
- nobody disputes anymore, that the natural bat-virus is the one which most resembles Sars-Cov-2
- and nobody disputes, that the Wuhan-lab was specialized in manipulation of exactly that "natural-corona-strain" from bats
- nobody disputes, that they had a database of created Corona-variations (about 20-thousand of them) online till end of 2019
- nobody disputes, that they took it offline (before China announced the outbreak in Wuhan officially)
- nobody disputes, that they filed reports to their funders in the US, describing the effects of their manipulation (on the humanized mice)
- nobody disputes, that Lab-escapes are quite common

Now draw your *own* conclusions from that...

If I may make a suggestion to public media-channels, how to "sell it, without hurting anyones belief":

"It had to be a lab-escape of a bat" ... (which later infected patient 0) ;)

Olaf

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Schmidt

"It had to be a lab-escape of a bat" ... (which later infected patient 0) ;)

Olaf

---

It has been rumored that doing the vaccine easy your lust on climbing tall buildings wearing a cape and screaming "I'm batman!" .

Quote:

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I did not make any "jump"

---

You kicked off your argument by telling Shaggy that "You're not well-informed then...". That you are well informed is implicit in that statement (otherwise you would be unqualified to make that statement). You then went on to lay out a bunch of assertions, all of which lean toward the conclusion that the virus originated in the Wuhan lab.

Yes, you rounded off by saying "I leave it to you, to apply occams razor here" but if you're now going to assert that you weren't making an argument that required a jump to be made then you're just deploying weak rhetorical devices to avoid having to justify the argument you were clearly making.

But that's really an aside because the key point was that you took Shaggy's use of the word "disingenuous" to mean "incorrect", which isn't what disingenuous means. The argument Shaggy was making was not that the virus didn't escape from the Wuhan lab but rather that such a discovery would be unremarkable.

Viral research is carried out throughout Europe, the Americas, Asia... worldwide. And it's carried out under multitudinous international funding schemes. This is a good thing and we want it to continue. It's the pre-existence of that research that allowed us to develop Covid vaccines so rapidly once the virus began to circulate.

I'm not sure whether you were intending to assign blame to China for this (I'm reasonably sure you weren't) but it's common for people to do so so I'll address it. It is possible, even probable given the current evidence (though as yet unproven), that the virus escaped from the Wuhan lab. However, if that turns out to be the case, the worst accusation that could be levelled at China would be one of incompetence and, given the haphazard response from the rest of the world, I can't help feeling we're standing in glass houses with a pocketful of rocks on that one.

Where it get's really weird, though, is when people start trying to ascribe some malicious intent to China. And they usually don't just come out and say it because it's such an obviously stupid thing to say. Instead they'll imply by calling it the China Virus or the Kung Flu.

The truth is, this came from China because China got unlucky. There but for the grace of God goes any developed nation.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by FunkyDexter

You then went on to lay out a bunch of assertions, ...

---

If that's your current opinion, then you're not well-informed either...,
because everything I listed are (in the meantime) commonly accepted facts (not "assertions").

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by FunkyDexter

...all of which lean toward the conclusion that the virus originated in the Wuhan lab.

---

Of course...
The facts I listed, make it seem highly probable, that this was indeed the case.

If you have other facts, which "lean towards something else" as the most probable reason,
then by all means, please post them.

I'm always willing to look "at all the related facts and sources", you know...

I even promise:
- that I will not put you into my little box of "nut-cases"
- nor will I put you into my "conspiracy-box"
- nor will I try to suggest, that you believe in the illuminati or something
in case you have a different opinion from my own.

Olaf

Quote:

---

I even promise:
- that I will not put you into my little box of "nut-cases"
- nor will I put you into my "conspiracy-box"
- nor will I try to suggest, that you believe in the illuminati or something
in case you have a different opinion from my own.

---

And behind your back:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Schmidt

I guess there will never be any "absolute proof", how Sars-Cov-2 "as we know it" came to be.

---

You're right about that, and it's particularly annoying. We COULD know, but China won't allow it, so we won't know unless they change their tune.

The virus originated in a bat. That's pretty certain. Bats are ideally suited for creating virus variants, and they harbor LOTS of corona viruses, including the closest known wild relative to the COVID virus. It would be highly improbable that some predecessor didn't start in bats. The big question is whether it was helped along. Heck, do we really care whether the virus came out of a wet market or if some researcher happened to mishandle a bat? It barely matters.

What WOULD matter would be if some researcher was manipulating the virus as part of some experiment and THAT got out. And we aren't likely to know that for decades, or even centuries, if ever. However, I do feel that makes it more likely that it was a deliberate alteration that was accidentally released. If there was no mistake made, what in the world are they covering it up for? Of course, China covers stuff up just because they can, so it's no guarantee, but still....

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TysonLPrice

And behind your back:

---

Nope, I can think for myself (and will judge for myself) whatever Funky (or anybody else)
will bring to the table.

All that without relying on "dismissing inconvenient, differing opinions outright",
(as outlined in the points I've listed... stuff like that is, what triggers my gag-reflex).

Olaf

Quote:

---

whatever Funky (or anybody else)
will bring to the table.

---

What Funky (and Shaggy before him) brought to the table and which you've continued to ignore is that nobody is arguing that the virus did not originate in the Wuhan lab. What is being argued is that 1. it is unproven and 2. if it did that is unremarkable.

But you go ahead and rail against an argument that nobody's making if it makes you feel good.

Quote:

---

If that's your current opinion, then you're not well-informed either...,
because everything I listed are (in the meantime) commonly accepted facts (not "assertions").

---

Well obviously it's not commonly accepted on this forum. Unless backed by proof, commonly accepted and assertion, are the same thing. Just semantics to me in this case. Actually wouldn't claiming something as "commonly accepted" be an assertion? lol I wonder how someone determines what's commonly accepted? I've never felt there was an agreement reached on this subject, maybe in other parts of the world it's different.

But I think it does matter where it originated. Because if it came from a lab, then there is a problem that needs to be fixed. If it was intentional that's something completely different. If it came from a wet market it's a different problem.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by wes4dbt

Because if it came from a lab, then there is a problem that needs to be fixed.

---

Unfortunately, I think WE are the problem. There isn't one of us on here who hasn't created bugs in the past. We didn't mean to. We wouldn't have done so had we known it was a bug when we created it. But we did it. For most of us, it was nothing more than an embarrassment, but it still happened.

The code that is held up as the gold standard as being the cleanest code ever written is that which ran the space shuttles. It was said to have no more than one bug per release, and since there was a LOT of code to the space shuttle, that's a VERY low rate per thousand lines of code. It's not zero, though. It's notably higher than zero. When it comes to certain things that we do, being any bit higher than zero can have catastrophic consequences.

I'm not sure that we are capable of avoiding all accidents. I believe that research into viruses is essential....but the official death toll in the US due to COVID (the real death toll is higher, as the US official count is clearly an undercount) has topped all battlefield deaths in the US for all wars in the entire 20th century combined, and we aren't done yet.

Of course, that's largely because of the ease of travel and large population size, which makes any such virus spread rapidly. Therefore, we are far better off knowing about viruses (and other pathogens) that can, or are likely, to jump to humans. The alternative is to stick our heads in the sand and hope for the best....and to be clear, 'the best' in the case of diseases is that we're already dead by the time the next pandemic comes along. They always happen, it's just a question of whether or not we are around for it.

Except here they didn't care to study a virus but they tried to mutate one.
But sure, no biggy, next time we will just slap you hand gently and say "don't do it again". Comparing space shuttle software bug to a virus experiment...Hmmm. Just hmmm.

Do you have some reliable source for that? If it could be proven that happened, it seems like we'd know. All I have seen is speculation and hypothesis.

I'm not reading all the messages, I know that the opinions varies and much, and that some have strong positions. OK, that's life, I don't pretend that I'll convince everybody, or anybody.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Schmidt

I did not make any "jump" - I just listed, what we *currently* know.

I guess there will never be any "absolute proof", how Sars-Cov-2 "as we know it" came to be.

There's only "certain probabilities" on a few scenarios, the most likely being:
1) it originated in bats - and was transferred naturally to "patient 0" (with high probability in Wuhan)
2) it was a lab-escape of one of the variations they produced in their research in Wuhan

against 1) speaks, that:
- transference of natural occuring (unmanipulated) bat-corona-viruses to humans is extremely hard (no proof exists to this day)

for 2) speaks, that:
- the point above being exactly, why "GOF-based manipulations in labs" had to happen in the first place
.. (to make the virus more transmissible to human cells - or as practiced in the Wuhan-lab: to "humanized mice"
- nobody disputes anymore, that the natural bat-virus is the one which most resembles Sars-Cov-2
- and nobody disputes, that the Wuhan-lab was specialized in manipulation of exactly that "natural-corona-strain" from bats
- nobody disputes, that they had a database of created Corona-variations (about 20-thousand of them) online till end of 2019
- nobody disputes, that they took it offline (before China announced the outbreak in Wuhan officially)
- nobody disputes, that they filed reports to their funders in the US, describing the effects of their manipulation (on the humanized mice)
- nobody disputes, that Lab-escapes are quite common

Now draw your *own* conclusions from that...

If I may make a suggestion to public media-channels, how to "sell it, without hurting anyones belief":

"It had to be a lab-escape of a bat" ... (which later infected patient 0) ;)

Olaf

---

I have almost no doubt that it wasn't a natural infection, my only current doubt is whether it was an accident or it was done on purpose, deliberated, planned.

And as I get more evidence and gain more understanding on the issue, I'm every time more convinced that it wasn't an accident either.

Also, I used to think that they were the Chinese behind this, but not any more, it is quite clear for me that they were some Americans (and may be some Europeans). I'm not saying the US government but private people.

It is also alarming how the dissident voices are silenced and "nobody" seems to care.
Even if someone is wrong, they should be able to express what they want to say, shouldn't they?
Well, that's not happening now.
Why the "Plandemic" videos are banned?
What are they afraid of?

When someone wants to silence someone is because he has something to hide. Simple.
Even if some of the speculations were wrong, it seems that some are right.

It is difficult to know the truth because these kind of things are not done at sunlight. But if you understand how the world works (my Bible studies helped me a lot), and seeing now what they are doing, it is getting clearer and clearer.

And I started just researching about Ivermectin. I started to see how the mass media said one thing (and the WHO, FDA, etc), and Thousands doctors all around the globe say another thing, presenting evidence that were all ignored and silenced (lying a lot).
From that starting point, I begun to discover that it wasn't just about Ivermectin, it was the same about everything.

It was the same before the pandemic, things that we don't care and don't understand normally to much, but now how this pandemic (or plandemic) affected our lives, we payed more attention (at least I did).

About how they managed to convince the masses, it is social engineering... but I'll leave it there.

About that there is a global agenda, I'll try to point some things, not related to the pandemic, that should be clear enough if someone is paying attention:

1) All gays are good.
2) Color people are better than white (I personally think we should not make difference based on races).
3) Males are bad, females are good and need to be against males.
4) Eating meat is bad.
5) Animals have the same value as humans.

May be more, but at least these one should be clear enough.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Eduardo-

I'm not reading all the messages, I know that the opinions varies and much, and that some have strong positions. OK, that's life, I don't pretend that I'll convince everybody, or anybody.



I have almost no doubt that it wasn't a natural infection, my only current doubt is whether it was an accident or it was done on purpose, deliberated, planned.

And as I get more evidence and gain more understanding on the issue, I'm every time more convinced that it wasn't an accident either.

Also, I used to think that they were the Chinese behind this, but not any more, it is quite clear for me that they were some Americans (and may be some Europeans). I'm not saying the US government but private people.

It is also alarming how the dissident voices are silenced and "nobody" seems to care.
Even if someone is wrong, they should be able to express what they want to say, shouldn't they?
Well, that's not happening now.
Why the "Plandemic" videos are banned?
What are they afraid of?

When someone wants to silence someone is because he has something to hide. Simple.
Even if some of the speculations were wrong, it seems that some are right.

It is difficult to know the truth because these kind of things are not done at sunlight. But if you understand how the world works (my Bible studies helped me a lot), and seeing now what they are doing, it is getting clearer and clearer.

And I started just researching about Ivermectin. I started to see how the mass media said one thing (and the WHO, FDA, etc), and Thousands doctors all around the globe say another thing, presenting evidence that were all ignored and silenced (lying a lot).
From that starting point, I begun to discover that it wasn't just about Ivermectin, it was the same about everything.

It was the same before the pandemic, things that we don't care and don't understand normally to much, but now how this pandemic (or plandemic) affected our lives, we payed more attention (at least I did).

About how they managed to convince the masses, it is social engineering... but I'll leave it there.

About that there is a global agenda, I'll try to point some things, not related to the pandemic, that should be clear enough if someone is paying attention:

1) All gays are good.
2) Color people are better than white (I personally think we should not make difference based on races).
3) Males are bad, females are good and need to be against males.
4) Eating meat is bad.
5) Animals have the same value as humans.

May be more, but at least these one should be clear enough.

---

I'm disappointed, you forgot to mention the Boogie Man. lol

its not a natural virus. its engineered.
I read somewhere about in the 90's about making a "virus" that was quite harmless more dangerous, this for the purpose of "weaponize" it, I think the "spike" protein, was a human "upgrade" and I also think it was patented.

anyway, if you want to see the corruption, just do some research:

- pfizer in the 90' patented the s1 spike protein
- operation warp speed
- anser
- palantir
- fors marsh
- publicis sapient

and put them together, about the money, shelling (to protect the manufactures such as pfizer, you need a front, a shield)

and, just before the pandemic, we have this:

https://www.gpmb.org/annual-reports/...-world-at-risk
https://www.federalregister.gov/docu...-public-health

sure u could say, its conspiracy, its not what it seems, its just coincidence. but if its not?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by wes4dbt

I'm disappointed, you forgot to mention the Boogie Man. lol

---

You are obviously the archetype of the fatuous people. I don't read your posts (and from some others because they are a waste of time) but this one was short enough to read.

In the middle age people like you have defended that the earth was plain.

It is not new. In fact persons like you have been always.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by baka

sure u could say, its conspiracy, its not what it seems, its just coincidence. but if its not?

---

Coincidences... no.

I could say (like some others did) "I don't believe that intelligent people can be so gullible", but I don't believe they are intelligent.

Me:-

Quote:

---

Where it get's really weird, though, is when people start trying to ascribe some malicious intent to China.

---

Response:-

Quote:

---

my only current doubt is whether it was an accident or it was done on purpose, deliberated, planned

---

Yep, didn't think it'd take long. OK, you're not ascribing it to China, you're ascribing it to "Some Americans (and maybe some Europeans)" which is an even wilder rabbit hole, frankly. It's really just the usual, amorphous "them"

...and then there's this:-

Quote:

---

if you understand how the world works (my Bible studies helped me a lot)

---

I think I'll just leave that right here for posterity.

Quote:

---

Because if it came from a lab, then there is a problem that needs to be fixed

---

I agree and posthumous examination of any disaster always has value. What I was objecting to is the tone that was developing that China is in anyway extraordinary because the virus originated there. Nobody blamed Japan for Fukashima. Do we blame the US for the Spanish Flu (it almost certainly originated in the US, not Spain)?. Sometimes stuff happens. When it does examination has value but hyperbolic blame has none.

LOL!

I'll wait to see if Olaf wants to respond something, but I'm done here.

I just came to say that Omicrom was good news, but perhaps it was a mistake to come back to this sewer (for sure, seeing the evidence). I more or less already knew what it was, so my bad.

I like to talk with intelligent, prepared and well informed people, but this is not the place.

Quote:

---

About that there is a global agenda, I'll try to point some things, not related to the pandemic, that should be clear enough if someone is paying attention:

1) All gays are good.
2) Color people are better than white (I personally think we should not make difference based on races).
3) Males are bad, females are good and need to be against males.
4) Eating meat is bad.
5) Animals have the same value as humans.

---

FOX news couldn't have said it better...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Eduardo-

I like to talk with intelligent, prepared and well informed people, but this is not the place.

---

I forgot to say open minded :bigyello::rolleyes::D:duck:;):cool:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TysonLPrice

FOX news couldn't have said it better...

---

I have no idea what Fox News says because I don't have Fox News here.
I don't watch TV anyway.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Eduardo-

I have no idea what Fox News says because I don't have Fox News here.
I don't watch TV anyway.

---

This is a public forum...you are not the only one participating. Plenty of people will understand what I posted.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TysonLPrice

This is a public forum...you are not the only one participating. Plenty of people will understand what I posted.

---

Ahhh, right, I thought it was a private forum and that I was the only one participating. Thanks for the information.

I don't know.
It's like crumbling in the corner going berserk saying, it's not true it's not true, giveme evidence giveme evidence.
I guess giving out evidence for the lab is the hardest part as they are deep in secrecy, but they slipped some so you need to combine stuff.
From there on you neither need to mock when you got nada to prove the opposite nor have 100% certainty but this seems to be more of a ball park in the "conspirators" side.
Also sapator jokes wannabes, just leave that to me, don't make a sap of yourself.
Here is one for the lab...
I'm Batman!!

P.S. Have a merry Xmas, I'm working for 3 days next week and then I'm off. Thinking to got to the mountains as it may snow but I'll think about it. (note to Shaggy, no I'm not hiking I just do some skiing and enjoy the cold from a resort and of course a LOT, A LOT of meat eating as these areas Levadia, Parnassos,Arahova have super meat and SUPER home made sausages, mmmmm...Oh, just though they won't let me in as I'm not vacinated....Buuuut ...)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TysonLPrice

This is a public forum...you are not the only one participating. Plenty of people will understand what I posted.

---

BTW, you don't need a news channel to tell you that. These things (that agenda) are obvious if you have read news for the last ten years, if you watched movies, Etc. It is everywhere.
For example the next James Bond will be black and gay... (just an example in a sea of examples).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Eduardo-

I forgot to say open minded :bigyello::rolleyes::D:duck:;):cool:

---

Open minded? If they don't say what you want them to say, you make up a statement for them so that you can take appropriate umbrage. Perhaps you skipped the part in your bible studies where it covered complaining about the mote in your brother's eye?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by sapator

I don't know.
It's like crumbling in the corner going berserk saying, it's not true it's not true, giveme evidence giveme evidence.

---

That's the problem, though. I started out assuming this was just a simple hop. The viruses are there. Bats are loaded with corona viruses because of their interesting immune system(s). There was no need for some lab transmission, and the early statements suggested that there wasn't any. Over time, though, the behavior of China has been rather striking. Their an odd country with a mix of paranoia and inferiority complex, though. In any other country, I would say that their behavior certainly looks like they are covering up something, but with China...it could be that they are covering up something utterly benign, like the name of the virus. They seem to overreact in some odd things (see the censorship around the name of Kim Jung Un), perhaps this is one of them?

So, I've moved from thinking that it was just simple transmission (they do eat EVERYTHING, so transmission from wild species is pretty likely) to being unsure. The US intelligence agency came to the same conclusion: They couldn't say. Now, for the paranoid sector that believes that anybody who doesn't agree with them is therefore part of the conspiracy, that alone would be a smoking gun, but I'm not in that crowd. The intelligence community is pretty conservative, if they can't find support for a conservative position, then I tend to believe that they really can't.

I am well aware that there are people coming up with wild speculations. As long as there are at least three of them that find one another (and sometimes only two), then they will amplify off one another until their speculations become certainty. I stampeded a herd of dairy cows that way. All I had to do was convince two of them...and the whole herd went into full-blown panic. It was hilarious. Dairy cows are NOT designed to stampede.

Still, I'm looking for some clear evidence one way or another. People assert their certainty, but they don't back it with anything and they don't have much of a track record on their own. This forum is just opinion.

South Korea’s "Joongang Daily" reported that China is making rapid progress in the global electric vehicle battery market. China's electric vehicle market is growing rapidly, and most Chinese battery manufacturers have doubled or more than tripled their performance. The reality of the global electric vehicle battery market is: "Walking Japan, running South Korea and flying China".

The virus has begun to spread again, and some cities in Zhejiang, China have been quarantined again. Many companies are struggling to survive, but new energy vehicles have made profits due to the sharp rise in oil prices.

The virus against pneumonia is only one type, and more types of viruses will break out in the future. Real zombie viruses and vampire viruses can happen. Including the large-scale global explosion of the atomic bomb, everyone was exposed to intense radiation, and half of the people died within 10 years. If the United States and the United Kingdom still adopt the method of collective immunization (just wait for death, everyone will be infected together, and the survival will prove that Darwin's theory of evolution is useful, and those with poor health or no money deserve to die), the world will become even more dangerous.

Wow. Haven't seen xiayao in a long time.

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Still, I'm looking for some clear evidence one way or another. People assert their certainty, but they don't back it with anything and they don't have much of a track record on their own. This forum is just opinion.

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I don't know if I agree, they have some pretty strong evidence of a world wide conspiracy.

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Etc. It is everywhere.
For example the next James Bond will be black and gay...

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This seems to also be a common theme with people that claim their opinion is fact, without backing it up with facts.

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I like to talk with intelligent, prepared and well informed people, but this is not the place.

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FD,

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I agree and posthumous examination of any disaster always has value. What I was objecting to is the tone that was developing that China is in anyway extraordinary because the virus originated there.

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My statement was solely in response to SH saying something like "does it even matter where it originated", I wasn't disagreeing with anything you said. I also think that SH only said that because he was exasperated with some peoples desperate need to fulfill their evil conspiracy theory.

China IS somewhat more likely to have viruses hop over for a couple reasons:

1) It's a large country that extends from colder, northern, climates to southern sub-tropical climates. This means that they have a wide variety of animals.
2) They have a very diverse diet. The US and EU, in comparison, eat pretty homogenous food, especially meat. That means that we are exposed to a reduced range of diseases. This is not necessarily a good thing, but it does appear to be the case.

huge respect to the people who still try to educate. i have given up a while ago and just checking back this forum and some others from time to time but most people are still brain washed as it seems. it's their responsibility to inform themself which is easier than any time before as there is the internet and independent sources.

i mean come on: shaggy saying that vax induced immunity is better than immunity from infection... i'm speachless. commercials truley do work for some people if you repeat them often enough.

The recent opioid crisis did not wake up americans as it seems. and this one is certainly also fake news (or "fake old's" i should better say) oh wait, they have learned and are now truely altruistic.
"Brought to you by Pfizer!"

and the european council is certainly also only working for the people! they have really learned from the "caviar diplomacy"
"With friendly support by Pfizer!"




how blind can one be? we have accepted far to long that corruption was present everywhere. basically we are not surprised anymore to find just another political bribery scandal, right? who says that institutions like WHO, CDC, FDA etc. are as clean as they want you to think?

I said in that other thread a few months ago that down the road you will have to vax several times per year to be allowed to go to school, work etc. does that sound more likely to you now? i read that california will have a mandate for school kids, right? Austria is going berserk with a general mandate, germany will follow soon. you will be required to take 4 jabs a year. i now hear you saying that nobody plans to vax every 3 months - well, wait and see how things unfold ;)

and in the meantime germany is having 20% excess deaths in November that even "experts" having problems to attribute to COVID and they are "puzzling why this is happening" as the media puts it. nobody is talking about the pink elefant in the room. oh wait, thats not true: those pesky consiracy theorists seem to have a clue... but that is fake news!! this should be censored!! people saying such things should be punished hardly for deceiving shee.. ahh, citizens! deceiving righteous citizens!!!

baka, here is one more link for your list: https://www.centerforhealthsecurity.org/event201/about

and dont forget: this is not about right or left wing, either are both corrupt. a political puppet show for the masses.

keep up the good work folks!

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how blind can one be? we have accepted far to long that corruption was present everywhere. basically we are not surprised anymore to find just another political bribery scandal, right? who says that institutions like WHO, CDC, FDA etc. are as clean as they want you to think?

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Good question. Who does say that? I haven't read anything here that says these agencies are above corruption.

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and dont forget: this is not about right or left wing, either are both corrupt. a political puppet show for the masses.

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So you think politicians might be lying to us and news media has bias and are controlled by "them". That many companies are doing there best to profit from the pandemic. Oh my!!!! Thanks for the heads up.

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Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker

China IS somewhat more likely to have viruses hop over for a couple reasons:

1) It's a large country that extends from colder, northern, climates to southern sub-tropical climates. This means that they have a wide variety of animals.
2) They have a very diverse diet. The US and EU, in comparison, eat pretty homogenous food, especially meat. That means that we are exposed to a reduced range of diseases. This is not necessarily a good thing, but it does appear to be the case.

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Considering their population is more than the US and all of Europe combined, it's not surprising to me an outbreak started there. But India isn't far behind so maybe population isn't a major factor. but if I had to guess I'd say it escaped from the lab. I'd be surprised if China would admit it but then again I'd be surprised if the US would admit it if it had originated here.

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Originally Posted by digitalShaman

i mean come on: shaggy saying that vax induced immunity is better than immunity from infection... i'm speachless. commercials truley do work for some people if you repeat them often enough.

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At first, I thought that somebody else had said that, but then I realized you had just misunderstood. If you end up with immunity either way, or even great resistance, then which is better: To have to go through an illness, or to not have to go through an illness? If the outcome is the same, does anybody really think you are better off going through the disease to get there?

And to be clear, I have no idea what the advertising reference is to, but you folks all seem to think that anything that doesn't agree with you must be coming from some kinds of mainstream media. I'm a biologist who works with fish in hatcheries. We deal with diseases and vaccinations on an annual basis and have for...well, probably for decades before I got there. Some fish diseases you know about because the fish look sick. Otherwise you just know about it because the number of fish dying per day starts surging. Sure, we could let the disease rip through the population and weed out a bunch. In fact, there are sound arguments to do so. Instead, we vaccinate the fish so that they don't have the deaths to begin with.

Before that, I had a sufficient background in cell biology in college and graduate school that I understood the chemistry behind how vaccines worked.

So, no, I'm not even sure what advertising you are talking about. I haven't seen it, whatever it was. I just have a work and educational background in the subject.

Just out of curiosity, what do you have?

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Originally Posted by digitalShaman

how blind can one be? we have accepted far to long that corruption was present everywhere. basically we are not surprised anymore to find just another political bribery scandal, right? who says that institutions like WHO, CDC, FDA etc. are as clean as they want you to think?

I said in that other thread a few months ago that down the road you will have to vax several times per year to be allowed to go to school, work etc. does that sound more likely to you now? i read that california will have a mandate for school kids, right? Austria is going berserk with a general mandate, germany will follow soon. you will be required to take 4 jabs a year. i now hear you saying that nobody plans to vax every 3 months - well, wait and see how things unfold ;)

and in the meantime germany is having 20% excess deaths in November that even "experts" having problems to attribute to COVID and they are "puzzling why this is happening" as the media puts it. nobody is talking about the pink elefant in the room. oh wait, thats not true: those pesky consiracy theorists seem to have a clue... but that is fake news!! this should be censored!! people saying such things should be punished hardly for deceiving shee.. ahh, citizens! deceiving righteous citizens!!!

baka, here is one more link for your list: https://www.centerforhealthsecurity.org/event201/about

and dont forget: this is not about right or left wing, either are both corrupt. a political puppet show for the masses.

keep up the good work folks!

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That gets back to the "massive conspiracy" thing. You gloss over what it would take for that to be true. It would require unheard of competency from people who have never shown that capacity in the past. Why is it assumed that, after bickering and fighting about every little thing for decades, they could all close up and act in exquisite lockstep on this issue? And if you're going to trot out the old "money" answer, I already covered that: Even the gross profits from all the vaccines by all the manufacturers in the word would be orders of magnitudes too small to cover that bill.

My guess is that you don't want to believe that there isn't such a leviathan out there. If there is, then it's somebodies fault. If there is not....that's pretty scary to some people.

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this is not about right or left wing

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Agreed. In California their are folks touting that a correct breathing regime can prevent you contracting it. Still, they've got about as much evidence as Ivermectin does so I'm sure they'll find some buyers.

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My statement was solely in response to SH saying something like "does it even matter where it originated"

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Yeah, I know, I just used your post to jump off from. The conspiracy tone wasn't coming from you but was present in the thread and you just provided a neat starting point for me to address it

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does anybody really think you are better off going through the disease to get there?

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Yes, sadly.

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I'm a biologist who works with fish in hatcheries.

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If ich jumps species we'll know who to blame.

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Agreed. In California their are folks touting that a correct breathing regime can prevent you contracting it. Still, they've got about as much evidence as Ivermectin does so I'm sure they'll find some buyers.

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Hadn't heard that one. But us Californians are proud of the fact we are the Worlds No.1 Almond producers and we have the nuts to prove it!!!!

Edit: If you think about it, ideas like that shouldn't be surprising. Look at all the different theories just in this thread. How many different people do you think have commented, let's be generous and say 100. There's @ 40 million people in California. You probably have to work really hard to come up with a new idea. Even knowing that, sometimes it makes you shake your head.

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Originally Posted by FunkyDexter

If ich jumps species we'll know who to blame.

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The best response to that is: A penny for your thoughts.

but that might be too insider for anybody to get it.

Just try not to get whirling disease.

Looks like about 45 different people have posted, with a fair number of them contributing a single post.

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That gets back to the "massive conspiracy" thing. You gloss over what it would take for that to be true. It would require unheard of competency from people who have never shown that capacity in the past. Why is it assumed that, after bickering and fighting about every little thing for decades, they could all close up and act in exquisite lockstep on this issue? And if you're going to trot out the old "money" answer, I already covered that: Even the gross profits from all the vaccines by all the manufacturers in the word would be orders of magnitudes too small to cover that bill.

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Wouldn't that be something, Democrats, Republican, Communist, Dictators, Fox News, CNN, NBC, AP, Reuters, ...... all keeping the same secret. Don't think there is enough money in the world to keep them from exposing each other. But some how they manage to put all their differences aside and agree to work together while all the billionaires sit around the campfire, hold hands and sing Kumbaya.Attachment 183307

I think Mafia has the more realistic scenario, three people can keep a secret if two of them are dead.

Two billionaires can work together only if each of them is the only one in charge.

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Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker

Two billionaires can work together only if each of them is the only one in charge.

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Believing that it is "that strict" is naive at best.

Underhanded, temporary "price-agreements" (among companies of similar branches) are quite common.
(you see this with Gas-prices all the time).

And across different branches, you can profit just fine from an "obvious run" of your fellow billionaire -
using Stock-futures or Stock-Put-Options (after all you have an entire floor of hired math-geniuses, who will get the timing just right).

Olaf

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Originally Posted by FunkyDexter

In California their are folks touting that a correct breathing regime can prevent you contracting it.

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Still working the "nutcase-angle", I see...

Olaf

Do you feel that's not nutcase?!

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A penny for your thoughts

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I still wouldn't have enough for a silver dollar.

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Even knowing that, sometimes it makes you shake your head

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Shaking your head helps prevent covid. Fact!!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bvevJePdNEk

If you want to be taken seriously you're going to need a better source than Russel Brand.

Well a lot of actors and celebrities where rooting in favor of the vaccine and they where listened to and taken seriously.... (Russel Brand is still alive?? :o)

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Originally Posted by FunkyDexter

If you want to be taken seriously you're going to need a better source than Russel Brand.

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It was for you, not for me.