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Dec 6th, 2001, 06:09 PM
ghost ryder

i believe they claimed terrorists (the assasins) were in there hidin, or around teh surrounding area

so rather than thinking about it, the mother****er sent in tanks and shelled teh school to pieces, but the western media had maybe mentioned it once

its sad things like that which have made me act this way 2 him

and harry, i know this is gonna sound TERRIBLY childish, but the israelis started it, they attacked first, and then they ***** when they get attacked by physchos with bombs strapped 2 their chests, which is wrong by the way
Dec 6th, 2001, 06:58 PM
HarryW

Well.... you're right, it does sound childish :(

What exactly did they do when the attacked first? What's your timescale on this?

Ciber has a point - I haven't heard of Israel breaking any ceasefires without being attacked by Palestinian extremists. Perhaps that's because I'm uninformed?
Dec 6th, 2001, 07:04 PM
ghost ryder

look man, i dont wanna argue, im so depressed im on the verge of doin sumthin stupid, i ****ed one test up, and im gonna **** another one up 2moro, so can we just not argue for the rest of the day

which i should really sleep, maybe if im lucky i wont wake up

that would be nice
Dec 6th, 2001, 07:19 PM
HarryW

Ghost, get a grip. You're meant to be an adult, you are at university looking after yourself aren't you? You don't need to complain about how badly yrou life is going all the time. Instead of saying things that imply you're losing it, why don't you spend your effort on fixing things?

I had some pretty major issues at the end of my first year @uni. I failed about third of my courses because I was preoccupied with other parts of my life, and had to retake some and some they let me off for. I had a f***ing terrible summer. So what do you do? You go back and sort your life out. You don't start saying you're going to do something stupid.

I mean, come on, it's just a test. I've messed up plenty of exams. I've turned up late to them, forgotten about them until the morning I had to take them, and even missed them completely. It's not the end of the world, you just put it behind you and get on with whatever's next.

Don't tell yourself you're going to mess it up, be positive. Relax. It's just an exam.
Dec 6th, 2001, 07:42 PM
ghost ryder

harry, eyah well u know how oit is man, its not tjuust wth test, im jyst having a ****ing bsand gfay, and u can see im habing troulesb tyupong, amd ai cant ber ****ed to hgo and change it, its so fuking ddeprsseding

anjd i dont knopw whsat i can do w fi it, weelll i could takje tuping lessimsn, lol
Dec 13th, 2001, 03:34 PM
jesus4u

how is all doing?

Check out my new sig...
Dec 14th, 2001, 02:02 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by beachbum
Monty, how did u get 1 post???? He's not the messiah, he's just a very keen programmer :eek:

LOL
Jan 8th, 2002, 07:46 AM
jesus4u

I thought this would be good for all to read. Have an awesome day!

And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself
and became obedient to death -- even death on a cross!
Philippians 2:8

Christ's amazing love should humble us even more
than a consciousness of our own guilt.
Jan 28th, 2002, 03:33 PM
jesus4u

Jesus loves all of you :)
Jan 28th, 2002, 03:52 PM
JungleMan

Quote:

Originally posted by jesus4u
Jesus loves all of you :)

He loves me the most :D
Jan 28th, 2002, 03:53 PM
jesus4u

:D
Jan 28th, 2002, 09:16 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by jesus4u
Jesus loves all of you :)

Except for florists....
Jan 29th, 2002, 12:12 PM
TWTCommish

Quote:

Yeah, you are contradicting yourself, and your god. Your god is a very vengeful and wrathful god, who doesn't hesitate to destroy or damn those who do not do as he says. I'm missing that unconditional love thing.

But the only reason you can give is... god made man so that man could know god. Before god made man, there was no man, so man wasn't lacking in its knowledge of anything. Which conludes that the problem (man not knowing god) was a result of our creation, not a cause for it.

Yeah... sounds like your god made man just so he would have company. We were all perfectly happy in our bliss and non-existant state before he came along. Selfish much?

What's to be confused about? Why must you love something, and still approve of it? If I have a son, and he goes on a murdering rampage, he'll deserve whatever the law has to throw at him, most likely. I'll love him...but that doesn't mean I'll deny that punishment is in order. It's not a hard concept to grasp.

Selfish? Hardly. Do you want to be alive? Are you glad you're here? God made man, IMO, for the same kind of reason you or I would like to have children. To share joy and love.

Quote:

If your god didn't demand tribute, I would be willing to give it. Since your god demands tribute solely on the grounds that he created us and thinks that that somehow entitles him... well... sorry, Overlord, but we've struggled for universal sufrage among our own kind, we aren't about to bow to you.

"Who are you?"
"I'm your King."
"I didn't vote for you."
-Monty Python and the Search for the Holy Grail

Now if he demands tribute and has a good reason, I would not only love to hear it, but be willing to judge it independently and, if need be, pay the tribute.

The quote is as follows:

Quote:

"Order, eh? Who does he think he is?"
"I am your King."
"Well I didn't vote for you."
"You don't vote for Kings."
"Well how did you become King, then?"

Good reason? Hmmm...how about giving you everything you have? How about being the sole reason you exist? Really? That's not enough? Sounds to me like you're a little high on yourself, then. Convinced you've got here all by yourself, eh? Hmmm.

Anyway, I'd like to point out that you DO judge it independently. Demand it? I dunno about that. Technically yes, but reasonably, you have a choice in the matter. Picture it: a perfect God actually bothers to create you...a flawed, weak creature that should be nothing to you. He loves you anyway, and asks only that you acknowledge him as your Creator, and acknowledge the pain he endured for you. You know, you can't expect forgiveness when you don't acknowledge you've done anything wrong in the first place.

His grounds for "tribute," as you put it, is that he endured pain and bothered to create you in the first place. What other hoops should He jump through to earn your approval?
Jan 29th, 2002, 12:14 PM
TWTCommish

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seriously, tell me if it seriously offends you, coz i dont wanna offend people

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if anything said above offended you, then you get offended too easily

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hey j4u, im gonna report ur signature, coz it offends me

Hmmm. Interesting.
Jan 29th, 2002, 12:39 PM
simonm

TWTCommish

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Picture it: a perfect God actually bothers to create you...a flawed, weak creature that should be nothing to you.

Right, so you admit that God created us as weak and flawed and yet we are to be thankful for that?

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You know, you can't expect forgiveness when you don't acknowledge you've done anything wrong in the first place.

OK and what exactly have we done wrong here? Why should we even need to be forgiven? He created us as "weak, flawed creatures" that are obviously destined to fall foul of God's high expectations (which he must have known perfectly well we could not match) and then we must grovel for forgiveness for not being better than we were created to be.

Quote:

What other hoops should He jump through to earn your approval?

We don't want his approval. If we were given life by God, let us live it. If we were given free-will by God, let us choose our own destiny.
Jan 29th, 2002, 12:48 PM
TWTCommish

Quote:

Right, so you admit that God created us as weak and flawed and yet we are to be thankful for that?

We made a choice, and we failed, as a race. We are flawed. Why are we flawed? Because we were given free will. If we were made as little puppets that were incapable of doing any wrong, things would be worse, IMO. Puppet humans are worse than flawed humans who, at the very least, can make their own choices.

Are you thankful to be alive? Do you wish you were never born?

Quote:

OK and what exactly have we done wrong here? Why should we even need to be forgiven? He created us as "weak, flawed creatures" that are obviously destined to fall foul of God's high expectations (which he must have known perfectly well we could not match) and then we must grovel for forgiveness for not being better than we were created to be.

Grovel? Your true feelings are revealed: you are too proud to follow God. Your post oozes with this general feeling of arrogance and pride. How dare God, who has created all, tell you to recognize Him for what He is, and what He's done. You're better than that. You should not be subjected to worshipping the God that gave you all you have, and all you ever will have.

Here's what you've done wrong: you've sinned. I'll bet you already knew that, though.

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We don't want his approval. If we were given life by God, let us live it. If we were given free-will by God, let us choose our own destiny.

Don't you see? You are living it. Right now, you are rejecting your Creator. You're making a choice. We don't want his approval? Who is we? I suggest you speak for yourself alone in this matter.

You've talked about, more than once, about how we should make our own decisions, and how God should not be dictating and demanding, basically...but he's not doing those things. If He did not give you this freedom that you seem to be complaining about, you wouldn't be rejecting him at this very moment, would you?

God is owed respect and "tribute" because of what He endured for us, and the very fact that he created us. I'm sorry to hear that you are, apparently, too proud to "grovel," as you put it...though it really only involves acknowleding Him for what He is and what He did. If someone were crucified for me, I'd be awfully thankful.
Jan 29th, 2002, 01:17 PM
SurfDemon

:rolleyes:

If god is all powerful, how did he suffer for us? Surely it would be no bother for him to create our species.

You're going to say he sent his only son to die for us. But he rose again three days later. Hardly a great loss. What about all of the people who have died willingly in the name of religion. Let's do a rough tally. God lost one son (but got him back) so we'll give him half a point for that. With all the religeous wars, inquisitions, plauges, global floods etc. lets say a conservative estimate is 100,000,000 people have died for god. None of them came back, so we'll award the human race 100,000,000 point's. By my reconning God owes us a lot more than we owe him. I think it's time he ante's up and sends down some beer and some nymphomanics!

SD
Jan 29th, 2002, 01:24 PM
TWTCommish

The joke is appreciated (pretty funny, actually), but, surprise surprise, I don't agree with the principle.

How did he suffer for us? He just did. Being capable of avoiding the pain, and avoiding it, are two different things. He took on a great burden to give us a second chance.

Quote:

You're going to say he sent his only son to die for us. But he rose again three days later. Hardly a great loss.

Alright, let's lash you a few dozen times, stick thorns on your head, and nail you to some wood. Hey, quit squirming, man...I told you: you'll come back three days later. So what's the big deal? :rolleyes:

Using your logic, the people who die in the name of religion...those who are doing so truly for God (I ain't talkin' Bin Laden here), shouldn't really count, either, because they go somewhere far better. They don't want to come back, my friend. There are no points, anyway. This is not a game. God and man are not equivalent.
Jan 29th, 2002, 02:46 PM

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But no, not everyone who dies for God is rewarded, because some of them have made poor choice concerning what God is. That's my opinion, though.

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He's the reason I'm here at all...and my reward is waiting for me.

How do you know that you haven't made a poor choice about what God is?
Jan 29th, 2002, 02:48 PM
Wally Pipp

Why is it that you seek confirmation of your beliefs ? If you're so absolutely convinced that He will care for you now and in the afterlife then why bother convincing non-believers, who are obviously on a rollercoaster ride straight to hell ?
The only form of defence from your "side" I've seen so far always boils down to the following : "He exists because the book says so. Believe or suffer the consequences".
Not pretty much of a defence I must say.
You are even willing to justify atrocities commited by Christians and other believers in the course of time just because they "believed".
I can only hope that your black and white life will not end in emptyness.
I also agree with BB when he said that posting here isn't going to yield much result in terms of understanding, let alone conversion. The most you'll get for your views from fellow forum dwellers is a shrug, a kind word of respect and a look usually reserved when addressing a mentally challenged.

Oh Wait ! I'm being condescending again ! Better stop now or Mr. Christian will wreak havoc upon me. :rolleyes:
Jan 29th, 2002, 02:48 PM
TWTCommish

I don't KNOW. I believe. I have faith. Never said I knew for sure. If I only believed things I KNEW, there wouldn't be much to believe in.
Jan 29th, 2002, 02:53 PM
TWTCommish

Quote:

Why is it that you seek confirmation of your beliefs ? If you're so absolutely convinced that He will care for you now and in the afterlife then why bother convincing non-believers, who are obviously on a rollercoaster ride straight to hell ?

I never said you were on a rollercoaster ride to hell. I'm defending my viewpoint. I do not seek confirmation from you...dunno what gave you that idea. People do not debate each other to change the other person's mind. They do it to because A) they feel obligated to stand up for their believes, B) it's a good exercise to test what you believe in, C) It can be educational and times, and D) to convince those reading, but not engaging in the discussion (the majority, I'd bet).

Quote:

The only form of defence from your "side" I've seen so far always boils down to the following : "He exists because the book says so. Believe or suffer the consequences".
Not pretty much of a defence I must say.

You're right, it would be a weak defense. Which is why I didn't say it.

Quote:

You are even willing to justify atrocities commited by Christians and other believers in the course of time just because they "believed".
I can only hope that your black and white life will not end in emptyness.

What atrocities have I justified? Go ahead, tell me. I'd be interested to know. A quote would help. I don't recall justifying any atrocities. Please enlighten me.

Quote:

The most you'll get for your views from fellow forum dwellers is a shrug, a kind word of respect and a look usually reserved when addressing a mentally challenged.

I really don't care. That's a fault of theirs...I'm not concerned with it.

I'll also repeat my question here: what do YOU believe in?
Jan 29th, 2002, 03:04 PM
Wally Pipp

QED I should say.

I could quote a dozen erm quotes from different threads concerning the matter but what good would it do ?
It would only result in the same old tired answers and defenses from your side. I could almost predict what your answers are going to be, they're always the same.
You're no better than a Jehova's witness bothering me at my doorstep.

If you must know I believe in me, I believe in life itself. My mother and father put me on this world, did everything in their powers to give me an education, I took that chance and got my degree. I honour them rather than an intangible Higher Being.
I live my life the way I see fit and need no book or church to decide my moral code.
I feel perfectly fine in the way my life is right now, thank you very much.
I've only got 80 years or so before the light goes out forever so I make the most of it. After death there is nothingness.
The difference is : I don't fear that nothingness. I've had my years then, good times and bad times. After that, I won't know and, if possible won't care what happens next because it'll be over and out.
My belief is this life, the now and all the rest is just make belief.
And yet, I still have to commit my first "sin" ...

Once again, your replies only demonstrate everything I tried to point out. It's not my fault that you fail to understand me, is it ?
Jan 29th, 2002, 03:10 PM
barrk

Ver well said Mr. Pipp!
Jan 29th, 2002, 03:10 PM
TWTCommish

Quote:

I could quote a dozen erm quotes from different threads concerning the matter but what good would it do ?
It would only result in the same old tired answers and defenses from your side. I could almost predict what your answers are going to be, they're always the same.

How very open-minded. :rolleyes: A dozen quotes from different threads? See, now I'm confused: didn't you say that I had justified atrocities? Oh, wait, you're lumping me together with other Christians on this board now, aren't you?

Quote:

If you must know I believe in me, I believe in life itself. My mother and father put me on this world, did everything in their powers to give me an education, I took that chance and got my degree. I honour them rather than an intangible Higher Being.
I live my life the way I see fit and need no book or church to decide my moral code.
I feel perfectly fine in the way my life is right now, thank you very much.

Perhaps you're misunderstanding me. Where do you think this world came from? Do you believe that rape and murder are wrong? Do you believe anything is truly wrong? Do you believe that your love and honor mean anything? Or are our emotions nothing more than chemical reactions?

Quote:

Once again, your replies only demonstrate everything I tried to point out. It's not my fault you fail to understand me, is it ?

Wanna hear something interesting? I knew you were going to lump me in with the other Christians here...I KNEW you would fail to provide any evidence to back up that "you've justified atrocities" claim. The difference is I don't feel the need to spout it as if it somehow makes me superior.
Jan 29th, 2002, 03:19 PM
Wally Pipp

*sigh* this is getting tiresome

Right

Point 1 : see all of SD's comments and your replies. 'Nuff said ?
Point 2 : This world was formed by the solidifying process of matter expelled from the sun.
Point 3 : Love and honour mean the world to me. Rape and murder are definately wrong in my opinion. I simply don't need any god for that.
Point 4 : Everything has a right an wrong side. There are too many shades of grey to think in black and white.
Point 5 : Yes, emotions are for a great deal, if not entirely, chemical processes.
And finally point 6 : Yes, I do lump you together with all the other Christians because that's the idea you give people. That you are one of the may zealots.

Thank you katie ;) I'm getting the hang of that preaching thing, aren't I ? :)
Jan 29th, 2002, 03:25 PM
TWTCommish

Yes, it is quite tiresome. Once again, though, I keep it to myself, because I've chosen to engage in it. As have you. If it's that tiresome, rather than SAYING it is, you ought to simply leave. Makes more sense than complaining about how tiresome it is, and then continuing anyway. This is all quite amusing at this point. Do you honestly think I haven't heard these arguments before? I'm just checking them off a list.

Apparently you need to demonstrate your superiority (perhaps for your own peace of mind) publicly, though...and therefore never miss a chance to say "hey! look at me! I knew you were going to say that!"

Quote:

Point 1 : see all of SD's comments and your replies. 'Nuff said ?

Hardly. But I doubt I can interest you in much more of this.

Quote:

This world was formed by the solidifying process of matter expelled from the sun.

So, the complex world around you was formed by chance. That right?

Quote:

Point 3 : Love and honour mean the world to me. I simply don't need any god for that.
Point 4 : Yes, emotions are for a great deal, if not entirely, chemical processes.

Good, at leat you're consistent. As you've guessed, I happen to believe that emotion is a somewhat higher concept. If they're just chemicals, though, and if there is no Higher Power...why bother? Why not do whatever is in your own interest and survival?

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And finally point 6 : Yes, I do lump you together with all the other Christians because that's the idea you give people. That you are one of the may zealots.

No, that's the idea I give you. Unfortunately, you opened your mouth without thinking. I justified no atrocities. You said I did. That was incorrect; it was a mistake. You made an assumption. Better luck next time. I'd appreciate it if you wouldn't say things that have no grounding...things that you cannot back up.
Jan 29th, 2002, 03:39 PM
Wally Pipp

Quote:

Originally posted by TWTCommish
Yes, it is quite tiresome. Once again, though, I keep it to myself, because I've chosen to engage in it. As have you. If it's that tiresome, rather than SAYING it is, you ought to simply leave. Makes more sense than complaining about how tiresome it is, and then continuing anyway. This is all quite amusing at this point. Do you honestly think I haven't heard these arguments before? I'm just checking them off a list at this point. Apparently you need to demonstrate your superiority (perhaps for your own peace of mind) publicly, though...and therefore never miss a chance to say "hey! look at me! I knew you were going to say that!"

I'm not superior to you, I'm just not willing to play your game anymore. It is the game religious zealot have always played since the dawn of religion. They always claim they know the way to lead your life, the way to salvation and anyone not willing to play that game is branded a sinner.
Same old game over and over again. Trust me pal, it is not me who's trying to justify himself.

Hardly. But I doubt I can interest you in much more of this.

No, you don't see that, do you ? You don't see the contradictions and justifications because they do not fit in your frame of mind, do they ?

So, the complex world around you was formed by chance. That right?

Yes, the complex world follows natural laws based upon the situation that world finds itself in. Not some divine intervention.

Good, at leat you're consistent. As you've guessed, I happen to believe that emotion is a somewhat higher concept. If they're just chemicals, though, and if there is no Higher Power...why bother? Why not do whatever is in your own interest and survival?

What do you think you are doing right now ? Charity ?
When someone threatens your life, you're most likely to defend yourself physically, possibly calling to god for assistance.

No, that's the idea I give you. Unfortunately, you opened your mouth without thinking. I justified no atrocities. You said I did. That was incorrect; it was a mistake. You made an assumption. Better luck next time. I'd appreciate it if you wouldn't say things that have no grounding...things that you cannot back up.

You would be surprised at the number of people who see it the same way as I do.
As for things with no grounding: I've yet to see some evidence that rains(sp?) through that god does exist. Rain through mind you, not some random quotes from a holy book.

I tried and I failed, hence I will try no more. It'll be quicker to train a tortoise to drive a car than to get you to understand what I really mean.
I'll take your advice then and leave it to this.
If you feel the need to answer with some prechewed, mindless drivel do not let me hold you back.
Just don't expect me to answer. You're classified.
point final, like the french say
Jan 29th, 2002, 03:57 PM
TWTCommish

Quote:

No, you don't see that, do you ? You don't see the contradictions and justifications because they do not fit in your frame of mind, do they ?

There is not contradiction. Sorry to disapoint you. You don't see your own close-minded nature, do you?

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Yes, the complex world follows natural laws based upon the situation that world finds itself in. Not some divine intervention.

I know you'd say that. ;)

Quote:

What do you think you are doing right now ? Charity ?
When someone threatens your life, you're most likely to defend yourself physically, possibly calling to god for assistance.

The only thing I'm doing is reminding you of the fact that, if we're just a jumble of chemicals and cells, and life has no real meaning, and there are no absolutes...no true right and wrong, then it makes no logical sense to do anything out of guilt, or a sense of obligation. After all, none of it means anything.

Quote:

You would be surprised at the number of people who see it the same way as I do.
As for things with no grounding: I've yet to see some evidence that rains(sp?) through that god does exist. Rain through mind you, not some random quotes from a holy book.

I'm amused at your little dance here. You won't own up to it, will you? That you labeled someone and got it wrong?

I don't claim to have any proof. My evidence? This kind of complexity is not the result of chaos. If you were to find a stone, very smooth and 10 feet tall (and 10 feet wide) sitting on the moon, you would consider it a sign of intelligence. Seeing as how this planet is much more complex, I see it as a sign of intelligent design.

I would like to point out that, when I corrected you, you responded with "a lot of people agree with me" and "yeah, but what proof do you have?" Ya know, this superior, intellectual attitude takes a big blow when you start throwing accusations around carelessly.

I won't berade you if you don't reply, because I don't like these arguments much myself. Hopefully you'll own up to your careless mistake...but I'm not holding my breath. If anyone else replies: I'm off to the movies. Might be awhile before I get back to you with more drivel.
Jan 29th, 2002, 04:00 PM
Wally Pipp

Wrong ?
I've hit the proverbial nail right on the head, as proven by these replies.

Enjoy the movies though. Which one is it ?
Jan 29th, 2002, 04:04 PM
TWTCommish

Wrong -- which are you referring to? I think I said you were wrong in several places. :)

I'm seeing The Count of Monte Cristo, though I'd much rather see The Lord of the Rings: The Fellowship of the Ring again. If we're late for the former, though, LOTR is showing 15 minutes later...so I may get my wish.
Jan 29th, 2002, 04:05 PM
Wally Pipp

Go for LotR. Great movie but not as good as the book though.
Try reading the book also, if you haven't done that already.
It's a true classic.
Jan 29th, 2002, 04:09 PM
TWTCommish

I've read the first two, and part of the third, and seen the movie 4 times. I need no convincing. :) A fifth time would be overkill...but it's better than nothing, and we wouldn't make it in time for Cristo.
Jan 30th, 2002, 05:06 AM
simonm

TWTCommish

Quote:

We made a choice, and we failed, as a race. We are flawed.

This deosn't make sence to me. How could we have made a choice as a race? Races don't make decisions, individuals do. Does it seem fair to you that individuals should inherit the sin committed by their ancestors?

It seems to me that we were created flawed.

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Why are we flawed? Because we were given free will.

So, by the very fact that we have free-will, we are flawed? The moment we choose to do anything that is not as God would have wanted, we have sinned? Tell me, what is the purpose of free-will if you cannot choose our own destiny?

You say we can and are choosing and executign our own destiny. I say it is like a soldier (God) pointing a gun at a prisoner and telling him: "Do whatever you will, you are free, unless you try to escape and I will shoot you."

God has given us free-will but if we don't choose to do exactly what God wants, we get punished. What God gives with one hand, he takes away with the other.

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Grovel? Your true feelings are revealed: you are too proud to follow God.

Yes, perhaps I am too proud. However, perhaps it is just because I wish to make the most of my life. Why should I be thankful for a life that I have to devote to worship of the creator? We're supposed to thankful for our life and free-will but when we use these "gifts" for any other purpose other than that which God decrees, we are to be punished.

We were given life and but our time belongs to God. We were given free-will but our choices belong to God. Is it any suprise that these gifts seem somewhat hollow?
Jan 30th, 2002, 07:05 AM

I haven't been following this discussion very well, so I don't really know who to side with, if anybody...

These are just some things I felt like pointing out. I was trying to stay out of these threads for a while, but it looks like I'm back again.

Quote:

Originally posted by simonm
Does it seem fair to you that individuals should inherit the sin committed by their ancestors?

Whether or not it's fair, we always inherit things from our parents and ancestors. We inherit hereditary traits, for example. We also inherit money (usually). Do we also inherit debts? (I really don't know) If your mother spends too much time around nuclear radiation before you're born, you've got problems. You can get affected in all sorts of ways by the actions of your ancestors. Whether or not it's fair, that's the way it is. Sin is just another way.

Quote:

Originally posted by simonm
It seems to me that we were created flawed.

I fail to see the logic in this one. We were created to have free will. We have free will. God was successful. God wants us to choose to listen to him. We could choose not to, because we actually have the free will. It sounds more like we were created with too few flaws, not too many.

Quote:

Originally posted by simonm
Tell me, what is the purpose of free-will if you cannot choose our own destiny?

You say we can and are choosing and executign our own destiny. I say it is like a soldier (God) pointing a gun at a prisoner and telling him: "Do whatever you will, you are free, unless you try to escape and I will shoot you."

God has given us free-will but if we don't choose to do exactly what God wants, we get punished. What God gives with one hand, he takes away with the other.

Today, many people hate rules. Unfortunately, they are a fact of life. We were created with free will. But we are given rules and we are told not to break them. Why is it so bad that God gave us rules? Governments gives us rules. We don't complain (much). Our parents give us rules. Nobody sees the harm in that. But if the rules come from God, why is that so bad?

In retrospect, I'm starting to feel that I agree with TWTCommish for the most part.
Jan 30th, 2002, 07:29 AM
Wally Pipp

Quote:

Originally posted by Tygur
I haven't been following this discussion very well, so I don't really know who to side with, if anybody...

These are just some things I felt like pointing out. I was trying to stay out of these threads for a while, but it looks like I'm back again.

Whether or not it's fair, we always inherit things from our parents and ancestors. We inherit hereditary traits, for example. We also inherit money (usually). Do we also inherit debts? (I really don't know) If your mother spends too much time around nuclear radiation before you're born, you've got problems. You can get affected in all sorts of ways by the actions of your ancestors. Whether or not it's fair, that's the way it is. Sin is just another way.

Interesting idea. So if my mother kills a man and then gives birth to me, that would make me a murderer although I haven't seen a weapon in my (brief) life.
Hmmmm ....

I fail to see the logic in this one. We were created to have free will. We have free will. God was successful. God wants us to choose to listen to him. We could choose not to, because we actually have the free will. It sounds more like we were created with too few flaws, not too many.

What happens if we choose not to ? Eternal damnation ? We become sinners ? We are not equal to believers ?

Today, many people hate rules. Unfortunately, they are a fact of life. We were created with free will. But we are given rules and we are told not to break them. Why is it so bad that God gave us rules? Governments gives us rules. We don't complain (much). Our parents give us rules. Nobody sees the harm in that. But if the rules come from God, why is that so bad?

because the former two are existing and tangible facts. The government exists and your parents exist too.

In retrospect, I'm starting to feel that I agree with TWTCommish for the most part.

That's in the end your choice but don't be surprised if there are people out there who think that your ideas are preposterous
Jan 30th, 2002, 07:38 AM
simonm

Tygur

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In retrospect, I'm starting to feel that I agree with TWTCommish for the most part.

Well that's hardly suprising is it? You are both Christians after all and you're hardly likely to side with an athiest in a religous debate!

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Whether or not it's fair, we always inherit things from our parents and ancestors.

Can't disagree with that.

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We inherit hereditary traits, for example.

No kidding. That's why they call them "hereditary" traits. :rolleyes:

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Whether or not it's fair, that's the way it is. Sin is just another way.

It's not only unfair, it doesn't make sense. Sin is not an object or a trait that can be passed on. To sin is to act against God. If my great-grand dad committed an act against God, I haven't. I should no more share in the blame for that particular act than you should. How can someone be responsible for something they had no control over?

Your analogy with inheriting genetic traits falls flat. I might inherit down-syndrome genes from my father but does that mean I deserve down-syndrome?

What is more, if we are to take responsibility for the actions of, not only ourselves, but our ancestors as well, free-will becomes too much of a burden. People have a tough enough time living up to the responsibilities of their own actions let alone those of their predecessors.

At the risk of sounding arrogant, I deny the responsibility for the sins of my forefathers and I will not answer for them.

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It sounds more like we were created with too few flaws, not too many.

Well, that's not what people keep telling me.

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Originally Posted by TWTCommish
We are flawed. Why are we flawed? Because we were given free will.

We were created by God in such a way that, despite having free-will, our base drives and instincts would lead us to sin.

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Today, many people hate rules. Unfortunately, they are a fact of life. We were created with free will. But we are given rules and we are told not to break them. Why is it so bad that God gave us rules? Governments gives us rules. We don't complain (much). Our parents give us rules. Nobody sees the harm in that. But if the rules come from God, why is that so bad?

Parents give their children rules until they are old enough to make their own rules. When the child is old enough, they begin to rebel and go their own way. They are not punished for this, it is the natural cycle.

Society makes rules to enable it's own smooth running. People can't go around randomly killing each other because society would break apart. These rules are a tolerated tempering of our freedoms only because we would end up with less freedom if they were not followed. Societies rules are democratic and can be changed when the majority of society wants it.

Now God's rules aren't much like either of the above examples are they? We can't "grow out" of God's rules and they aren't democratic. We just have to blindly follow them whether they make sense or not.

If we were given freewill, are we not entitled to use it as we see fit? What's the point of being given freedom if we get punished for not doing exactly what God wants us to? Why bother with the free-will bit? Seems like a cruel joke to me.
Jan 30th, 2002, 07:49 AM

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Originally posted by Wally Pipp
So if my mother kills a man and then gives birth to me, that would make me a murderer although I haven't seen a weapon in my (brief) life.

Did I say we inherited everything? I'm guessing this whole inheriting-sin thing is coming from account of Adam and Eve in the bible. They sinned and therefore lost the ability to live forever. Then their children came along and inherited the inability to live forever. Does that make more sense? Another way of looking at it is they could no longer pass the ability to live forever to their children. The penalty for sin is death. They passed death on to their children. The closest illustration I can come up with for now is the one in my previous post about a mother hanging around nuclear radiation.

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Originally posted by Wally Pipp
What happens if we choose not to ? Eternal damnation ? We become sinners ? We are not equal to believers ?

This gets a little complicated, but the simplest way of putting it is we become sinners. You suffer the consequences of your actions.

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Originally posted by Wally Pipp
because the former two are existing and tangible facts. The government exists and your parents exist too.

God exists, too, but many people don't think so. Anyhow, the point I was trying to make is that it's not so unfair and wrong for God to make rules for us to follow. He is an authority figure, after all.
Jan 30th, 2002, 08:54 AM
Wally Pipp

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Originally posted by Tygur

Did I say we inherited everything? I'm guessing this whole inheriting-sin thing is coming from account of Adam and Eve in the bible. They sinned and therefore lost the ability to live forever. Then their children came along and inherited the inability to live forever. Does that make more sense? Another way of looking at it is they could no longer pass the ability to live forever to their children. The penalty for sin is death. They passed death on to their children. The closest illustration I can come up with for now is the one in my previous post about a mother hanging around nuclear radiation.

This must be the most ludicrous defense ever :)
Death is not something you inherit, death is part of life.
When you grow older the body functions become less stable due to wear and tear. The result is that they cease to function at some point. Hence diseases, hence every other result of growing older.

This gets a little complicated, but the simplest way of putting it is we become sinners. You suffer the consequences of your actions.

so much for free will then. You have free will with restrictions (i.e. follow god's commands). That's no free will at all.

God exists, too, but many people don't think so. Anyhow, the point I was trying to make is that it's not so unfair and wrong for God to make rules for us to follow. He is an authority figure, after all.

Well, I'm not to prove that he doesn't exist. I cannot believe in something I believe not to be there. It is you and your ilk who wants to convince me otherwise, who wants to prove their frame of mind so desperately.
So far your luck is running out

Answering machine style of reasoning ? Oh yes, you betcha ...
Jan 30th, 2002, 09:33 AM
TWTCommish

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This deosn't make sence to me. How could we have made a choice as a race? Races don't make decisions, individuals do. Does it seem fair to you that individuals should inherit the sin committed by their ancestors?

It seems to me that we were created flawed.

We were created to have a choice. We made a choice. It's equivalent to your grandfather squandering your family fortune, so that you don't end up seeing any of it. That is why God suffered for us: to give us a way out of this difficult situation.

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So, by the very fact that we have free-will, we are flawed? The moment we choose to do anything that is not as God would have wanted, we have sinned? Tell me, what is the purpose of free-will if you cannot choose our own destiny?

You say we can and are choosing and executign our own destiny. I say it is like a soldier (God) pointing a gun at a prisoner and telling him: "Do whatever you will, you are free, unless you try to escape and I will shoot you."

God has given us free-will but if we don't choose to do exactly what God wants, we get punished. What God gives with one hand, he takes away with the other.

That's ridiculous. Free will is free will, period. You're acting as if God is holding a gun to your head ordering you to believe in him...but your bias is reflected in your analogy. A more accurate analogy would be you dangling from the edge of a cliff, God's hand outstretched above you.

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Yes, perhaps I am too proud. However, perhaps it is just because I wish to make the most of my life. Why should I be thankful for a life that I have to devote to worship of the creator? We're supposed to thankful for our life and free-will but when we use these "gifts" for any other purpose other than that which God decrees, we are to be punished.

Incorrect. I sin, against God's will, constantly. This is where mercy comes in. I refuse to believe that you didn't know that, though.

Make the most of your life? Say what you want. I'm sorry if the resitrictions of a pious life are too much for you to bear. I think that's a problem with you, though...and not the religion.

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What happens if we choose not to ? Eternal damnation ? We become sinners ? We are not equal to believers ?

What is it with you and this "Christians think they're better than us!" nonsense? I haven't said anything of the sort...and I don't think Tygur has. You keep on mentioning it, though. This another assumption you're making about us all? Where's the "shaking head" smilie when you need it?

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That's in the end your choice but don't be surprised if there are people out there who think that your ideas are preposterous

Likewise. But I guess that doesn't matter -- because you're better than us, right? I find it remarkably ironic that you don't hesitate to rant a bit on Christians acting superior and better than everyone else, yet you're perfectly willing to make some snide comment about answering machines...acting as if you're the only one who sees these things being said in advance (I assure you you're not).

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We were created by God in such a way that, despite having free-will, our base drives and instincts would lead us to sin.

No, not really. Adam and Eve (not that it matters...I'm sure it's all Fairy Tale nonsense to an educated fellow like yourself) were not leaning towards sin. They took a lot of convincing, it seems to me. After that, however, we were left more to our own devices, and therefore became more sinful.

Anyway, regardless of how we were created, we've got a way out. You simply choose not to take it. It's a shame...but I don't think I'm going to change your mind.

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Now God's rules aren't much like either of the above examples are they? We can't "grow out" of God's rules and they aren't democratic. We just have to blindly follow them whether they make sense or not.

Some forms of government must follow rules whether they make sense or not. I live in Pennsylvania -- I'm not allowed to sing in the bathtub. If I wanted to get this law overturned, I doubt I'd find anyone who cared enough to help me.

And, what you're forgetting, I think, is that a Christian who devoutly and truly follows The Bible, is an asset to society. The Bible says nothing about justifying the bombing of abortion clinics, or screaming at non-believers. I think what we have here is a blurring between Christianity, and the more man-made aspects of religion. The perversions and mistakes. If you don't like Christianity, that's fine...but don't like it in spite of the good The Bible teaches. Don't dislike it because some of its, what is it, 1.8 billion followers?, have made mistakes with its doctrine.

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so much for free will then. You have free will with restrictions (i.e. follow god's commands). That's no free will at all.

See my reply above.

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Well, I'm not to prove that he doesn't exist. I cannot believe in something I believe not to be there. It is you and your ilk who wants to convince me otherwise, who wants to prove their frame of mind so desperately.
So far your luck is running out

Desperately? Please, save these ridiculous comments for someone they might actually work on. I did not start a thread about conversion. I came across a public forum in which an argument was taking place. I saw several things I disagreed with, so I replied to them. I do not intend to convince you otherwise (please don't tell me what it is I want, and am trying to do). I already detailed for you why I (and why most others, I think) "waste" so much time on these arguments. Need I repeat it? I don't mind reminding you that there was no mention of convincing the person you're arguing with. In all the wasted hours of political and religious debate I've been involved in, I can only recall one time where the person ever changed their mind down the road. I don't do it for that. Do I need to say it again? I'll try bold this time: I don't do it for that. There, now you know.

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Answering machine style of reasoning ? Oh yes, you betcha ...

Wow! You know my every move. No matter that I've heard absolutely nothing new out of you. Screw this, I'm worshipping YOU from now on.
Jan 30th, 2002, 09:41 AM

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Originally posted by Wally Pipp
This must be the most ludicrous defense ever
Death is not something you inherit, death is part of life.
When you grow older the body functions become less stable due to wear and tear. The result is that they cease to function at some point. Hence diseases, hence every other result of growing older.

That's the way we (people today) understand it because death has been around for as long as we can remember. The simple fact (according to the bible) is that Adam and Eve weren't originally supposed to die. Death came along as a result of thir sin.

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Originally posted by Wally Pipp
so much for free will then. You have free will with restrictions (i.e. follow god's commands). That's no free will at all.

If you want to think of it that way, you might as well say we don't have free will now, because we still gotta obey Governments and any other authority figures.

We actually do have free will. We can choose to disobey God and become sinners. That's our choice. Sounds like free will to me. We have to suffer the consequences of our actions. There's no escaping that. Break God's laws and you become a sinner You have free will, because you can choose to disregard his laws. Becoming a sinner is a consequence.

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Originally posted by simonm
Well that's hardly suprising is it? You are both Christians after all and you're hardly likely to side with an athiest in a religous debate!

I remember some past discussions where I debated against other christians about issues such as heaven and hell.

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Originally posted by simonm
It's not only unfair, it doesn't make sense. Sin is not an object or a trait that can be passed on. To sin is to act against God. If my great-grand dad committed an act against God, I haven't. I should no more share in the blame for that particular act than you should. How can someone be responsible for something they had no control over?

Sin itself is not an object, but when Adam and Eve sinned, they lost everlasting life and perfection. They became flawed. They passed those flaws down to us. That was the meaning behind my nuclear radiation illustration earlier. You still suffer the effects, even though you had no control over the cause.

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Originally posted by simonm
It's not only unfair, it doesn't make sense. Sin is not an object or a trait that can be passed on. To sin is to act against God. If my great-grand dad committed an act against God, I haven't. I should no more share in the blame for that particular act than you should. How can someone be responsible for something they had no control over?

What is more, if we are to take responsibility for the actions of, not only ourselves, but our ancestors as well, free-will becomes too much of a burden. People have a tough enough time living up to the responsibilities of their own actions let alone those of their predecessors.

At the risk of sounding arrogant, I deny the responsibility for the sins of my forefathers and I will not answer for them.

I agree. It is unfair. But that's the way it is. That's the reason why Jesus Christ died. He died to give us all a second chance. The whole explanation is a bit lengthy, but the short one is that, because of Jesus, we have the chance to change our ways and live forever after armageddon.

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Originally posted by simonm
We were created by God in such a way that, despite having free-will, our base drives and instincts would lead us to sin.

That is not how we were originally created. It is a result of Adam and Eve's sin.

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Originally posted by simonm
Parents give their children rules until they are old enough to make their own rules. When the child is old enough, they begin to rebel and go their own way. They are not punished for this, it is the natural cycle.

I don't believe children are supposed to rebel, though they are certainly supposed to eventually leave. They should leave on much more friendlier terms.

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Originally posted by simonm
Society makes rules to enable it's own smooth running. People can't go around randomly killing each other because society would break apart. These rules are a tolerated tempering of our freedoms only because we would end up with less freedom if they were not followed. Societies rules are democratic and can be changed when the majority of society wants it.

Not all societies work that way.

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Originally posted by simonm
Now God's rules aren't much like either of the above examples are they? We can't "grow out" of God's rules and they aren't democratic. We just have to blindly follow them whether they make sense or not.

Rules are not meant to be broken, and the people who have to obey these rules aren't supposed to be able to change them as they see fit. Otherwise, they wouldn't really be rules.

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Originally posted by simonm
If we were given freewill, are we not entitled to use it as we see fit? What's the point of being given freedom if we get punished for not doing exactly what God wants us to? Why bother with the free-will bit? Seems like a cruel joke to me.

We are capable of doing whatever we wish. Like I keep saying, we just have to suffer the consequences. Getting full is a consequence of eating. Getting to work is a consequence of driving there. Getting a speeding ticket is a consequence of speeding. Likewise, becoming a sinner is a consequence of breaking God's laws.
Jan 30th, 2002, 10:00 AM
simonm

TWTCommish

Firstly, I'd like to say that your last reply seemed to be directed at one person and yet it used quotes from at least two people (including myself).

I would like to make it clear that I don't think that you (or Tygur) are "ramming" religion down anyone's throats. I respect your right to your opinions and enjoy this discussion.

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We were created to have a choice. We made a choice. It's equivalent to your grandfather squandering your family fortune, so that you don't end up seeing any of it. That is why God suffered for us: to give us a way out of this difficult situation.

This is not quite how I understand it. Correct me if I'm wrong but I understood that Christians believe that everyone is born in sin. We are born deserving damnation because of the mistakes made by our ancestors.

The only "situation" that God is offering us a way out of is the one that God created for us.

Adam and Eve were not created perfect. Eve was tempted into eating the forbidden apple. You can't tempt someone unless they already have suppressed inclinations to do something. She was built by God with evil inclinations. The first sin was therefore innevitable and just a matter of time.

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That's ridiculous. Free will is free will, period. You're acting as if God is holding a gun to your head ordering you to believe in him...but your bias is reflected in your analogy. A more accurate analogy would be you dangling from the edge of a cliff, God's hand outstretched above you.

Well, I stand by my analogy as yours suggests that the "cliff" we are dangling from just happened to be there. The thing is, the "cliff" was created by God and we were placed on the precipiece.

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Say what you want. I'm sorry if the resitrictions of a pious life are too much for you to bear. I think that's a problem with you, though...and not the religion.

There are too much to bear because they are unjust. I live up to my own moral standards and will not have them imposed on me by anyone else.

Tygur

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We actually do have free will. We can choose to disobey God and become sinners. That's our choice. Sounds like free will to me. We have to suffer the consequences of our actions.

But these are not innevitable consequances that God has no control over. If he decides to punish us for some sin, God chooses to impose it. He is not obliged to. Going back to my "prisoner" analogy, I could say to the prisoner that he can run if he wants to. It's just that me pulling the trigger is the innevitable consequance of that action.

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Likewise, becoming a sinner is a consequence of breaking God's laws.

...or just being born.
Jan 30th, 2002, 10:12 AM
TWTCommish

Yes, I know it's two different people. I'm lazy, though. :) Crap, I think sloth is one of the seven deadly sins. I guess I'll have to work on that.

simonn

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This is not quite how I understand it. Correct me if I'm wrong but I understood that Christians believe that everyone is born in sin. We are born deserving damnation because of the mistakes made by our ancestors.

The only "situation" that God is offering us a way out of is the one that God created for us.

Adam and Eve were not created perfect. Eve was tempted into eating the forbidden apple. You can't tempt someone unless they already have suppressed inclinations to do something. She was built by God with evil inclinations. The first sin was therefore innevitable and just a matter of time.

We are born as sinful creatures. But I honestly believe that children too young to make any concious decisions are saved from damnation if they should die. Adam and Eve were not perfect -- that's true. But she had to have someone there to tempt her for it to happen. And even then, it was a choice. I wouldn't say that it was inevitable. C.S. Lewis wrote an allegory of sorts about this in Perelandra that explains some of it as well as I ever could. I don't believe that "The Fall" HAD to happen. Just that it did.

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Well, I stand by my analogy as yours suggests that the "cliff" we are dangling from just happened to be there. The thing is, the "cliff" was created by God and we were placed on the precipiece.

Not to be Pippish here (how's that for a new word?), but I expected you to say exactly that. :) To take the analogy further (even though I admit I usually hate analogies that are hopelessly stretched), I'd say that we're a bit careless, God put is somewhere, told us not to get near the cliff, we stumbled over there anyway, sure of our own ability not to fall off...and we fell off anyway. :) I realize I'm stretching the analogy at this point, though.

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There are too much to bear because they are unjust. I live up to my own moral standards and will not have them imposed on me by anyone else.

I don't have enough faith in myself to get my morals right. When you control your own morals, I think your own desires show through far too much. We all have inclinations to do immoral things...and if the only God we follow, so to speak, is that of ourselves, then I think we're asking for trouble.
Jan 30th, 2002, 10:40 AM
simonm

TWTCommish

Well, that's better. You seem a little "warmer" to me now! :)

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We are born as sinful creatures.

We all have inclinations to do immoral things

I have listed the two, seperate quotes above because they both imply that, although we are not compelled to sin, we were created in such a way that it would be likely, indeed, we must fight our very nature to avoid sinning.

So why did God create a creature that he wanted so much to live their lives in a certain way, give them immoral tendancies? OK, we have free will and we don't have to go along with these tendancies but why do we even have them? Was God not asking for trouble when he created us in this way?

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Adam and Eve were not perfect -- that's true. But she had to have someone there to tempt her for it to happen. And even then, it was a choice. I wouldn't say that it was inevitable.

OK, not innevitable, but likely? Given our innate tendancies to sin, given thousands of years, it was boud to happen sooner or later. The fact that it happened with the very first couple seems to show how probable it was.

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C.S. Lewis wrote an allegory of sorts about this in Perelandra that explains some of it as well as I ever could. I don't believe that "The Fall" HAD to happen. Just that it did.

I have not ready the book you mention although I have read "the Abolition of man" by C.S.Lewis which was a defence of natural law and morality. I was not convinced by it however, he seemed to make his point by manipulation of symantics that sound logical reasoning.

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To take the analogy further (even though I admit I usually hate analogies that are hopelessly stretched), I'd say that we're a bit careless, God put is somewhere, told us not to get near the cliff, we stumbled over there anyway, sure of our own ability not to fall off...and we fell off anyway. I realize I'm stretching the analogy at this point, though.

OK, why put the cliff there attall? Surely it is an unnecessary obstacle?

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I don't have enough faith in myself to get my morals right.

That's the crux of it isn't it? If you have enough faith in yourself, you do not need to adopt anyone elses morals.
Jan 30th, 2002, 10:54 AM
TWTCommish

I'm liking this...I can feel my mind really working.

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I have listed the two, seperate quotes above because they both imply that, although we are not compelled to sin, we were created in such a way that it would be likely, indeed, we must fight our very nature to avoid sinning.

So why did God create a creature that he wanted so much to live their lives in a certain way, give them immoral tendancies? OK, we have free will and we don't have to go along with these tendancies but why do we even have them? Was God not asking for trouble when he created us in this way?

I don't see it as giving us immoral tendancies...I see it as free will. It was either free will, and the potential for immorality, or puppet people.

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OK, not innevitable, but likely? Given our innate tendancies to sin, given thousands of years, it was boud to happen sooner or later. The fact that it happened with the very first couple seems to show how probable it was.

I don't think so. I know it sounds ridiculous to you (and others...hi Wally!), but I think Satan made a big push there. As I'm sure you know, The Bible says that The Devil appeared in the form of a serpent, and tempted Eve. In Pereland (don't read if you don't want it spoiled for you!), The Devil appears in another form: that of a man. It is on another world not unlike our own (when you get past the details), where an alien version of our Eve is sitting, sinless. He tries to convince her to do the one thing that God does not want her to do. In the end, after what must have been weeks, or months of debate amongst the two of them in front of this woman, Ransom (the hero, essentially), simply kills the creature. He destroys the body The Devil has inhabited. It was a one-shot deal in that book, it seems.

I have to wonder if the real thing is the same way. Perhaps that was the one test. I honestly can't say either way...so I'm hesitant to say that it was inevitable, or impossible to avoid.

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I have not ready the book you mention although I have read "the Abolition of man" by C.S.Lewis which was a defence of natural law and morality. I was not convinced by it however, he seemed to make his point by manipulation of symantics that sound logical reasoning.

Well, I can respect that...but I love his work. My entire family does. :) My younger brother is named after him, in fact. Have you read The Screwtape Letters? Man oh man, do I love that book. Very cool concept, even if you're not a believer.

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OK, why put the cliff there attall? Surely it is an unnecessary obstacle?

Why should a cliff be an obstacle? Seems to me it's an easy way to view the landscape. :) It's only an obstacle if you're careless. I go back to Perelandra -- the lady there is oblivious to sin, in a way. She is told about pain and death, and is eager to try them...because she cannot comprehend something bad at that point. A cliff is not bad...because she does not make the mistake of being careless with it. Water is not bad, because she won't let herself drown in it, etc.

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That's the crux of it isn't it? If you have enough faith in yourself, you do not need to adopt anyone elses morals.

I don't think so. I said that knowing that it would be taken as a lack of faith in myself...but that's far from the case. It's easy, I think, to mistake arrogance for faith in oneself. I have faith in myself to do many things. I have faith in my ability to recognize my own flaws fairly often, too...and one of those flaws is the tendency to make biased rules for myself.
Jan 30th, 2002, 10:57 AM
Addicted2Truth

Jesus4u Thread... hmm

Hi,

It seems that many of you have some misconceptions/strong opinions about Jesus Christ and Christianity. I would definitely be game if any of you would like to discuss these things privately with me in email. I think many of you would be surprised. I welcome any of you.

God bless you

Addicted2Truth

my email is: [email protected]
Jan 30th, 2002, 11:26 AM
simonm

TWTCommish

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I don't see it as giving us immoral tendancies...I see it as free will. It was either free will, and the potential for immorality, or puppet people.

Well it's not that simple is it?

We may have free will but we also have biological and emotional drives that we have to fight with if we wish to go against them. Since these drives are part of our biological makeup, they must be part of the way with which we were created.

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Why should a cliff be an obstacle? Seems to me it's an easy way to view the landscape.

Well, that's definitely taking this analogy too far! :)

Addicted2Truth

Do you not wish to air your views in public? Come on, well be gentle with you...;)
Jan 30th, 2002, 11:30 AM
TWTCommish

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Well it's not that simple is it?

We may have free will but we also have biological and emotional drives that we have to fight with if we wish to go against them. Since these drives are part of our biological makeup, they must be part of the way with which we were created.

I don't know that it was a tendency or a drive...I really don't. I think we were capable of it. But that's what comes from free will. That was awakened and encouraged by the serpent. I don't see it as a deep desire being oppressed.

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Well, that's definitely taking this analogy too far! :)

Perhaps, but I think it does a good job of making the point I'm trying to make: we're all looking at things from a negative, flawed standpoint, which cliffs and apples and all that are these "obstacles." But if you look at it from the position of someone like Adam or Eve before The Fall (or, to you, the way you've heard they acted in the story), there's no real problem. Why should they disobey? They've got all they need. It's not even an issue. Their perspective is completely different.
Jan 30th, 2002, 11:31 AM
Wally Pipp

TwtCommish and the rest, here's the rub :

I have nothing personal against the Christian posters. I may have been too harsh or too sarcastic in my wordings. For that , if needed, I apologise. I will, however, not apologise for the content.
I do not deny the social value of Christianity and other religions now and in the past. In fact, a lot of our moral code is derived from the books and scrolls. What I can't believe is the God bit. For you it may very well be because you consider yourself weak to make up your own moral code (your own words) but for me that is not the case. I've never commited serious crimes or lived in sin. I've known my girlfriend (soon to be wife) for a long time and we have a good relationship, always had. There is absolutely no need for me to resort to a higher being.
The pious life is not too much to bear, it is simply not applicable in my case.
The answering machine sneer is also maybe a bit too harsh.
I'll explain it then : I've had these discussions before with other devoted Christians and they always ended with "you have your belief and I have mine". I'm perfectly content with that were it not that these statements always seem to have a suggestion that said "You are a good person but I'm a better one because I follow the Holy Book. My arguments need no explanation because it says so right here in the book".
And that last bit is what I object to. If j4u only started one thread and kept himself to that, it would be fine. But he felt the need to actively promote his Higher beliefs in several threads, suggesting that anyone who disagrees hasn't seen the light yet.
And I can understand your point of view to, it's just that I need to see the first credible evidence that God exists. Before that I simply think that there is no higher being, no afterlife and religion is nothing but a social subculture. I know, 1,8 billion people can't be wrong you say but show me some real evidence then. Not just evidence that says "You can't prove it either so I'm right". If you say I'm standing in front of an invisible table and you argue that it is there because I can't prove that it isn't does not make me more inclined to believe your views. I can understand them.
I grant you your views and let you live the way you choose but I still think that it would do a great deal of good to your cause if you could provide some real evidence.
Undoubtedly that is what your opinion will be about me (in reverse obviously).
You are entitled to that.

Just don't ask me to believe you before credible evidence is provided (with credible evidence I mean some fact or facts that undeniably point towards the existance of god)

I hope you understand that there is respect for you as a person with me. Just not a lot of belief in your views.

Rant over :)
Jan 30th, 2002, 11:37 AM
HarryW

Quote:

Originally posted by TWTCommish
It's easy, I think, to mistake arrogance for faith in oneself.

Perhaps. Perhaps it is also easy to mistake faith in oneself for arrogance.

All depends on what your perspective is on where you think people should be placing their faith.
Jan 30th, 2002, 11:45 AM
TWTCommish

Quote:

I do not deny the social value of Christianity and other religions now and in the past. In fact, a lot of our moral code is derived from the books and scrolls. What I can't believe is the God bit. For you it may very well be because you consider yourself weak to make up your own moral code (your own words) but for me that is not the case. I've never commited serious crimes or lived in sin. I've known my girlfriend (soon to be wife) for a long time and we have a good relationship, always had. There is absolutely no need for me to resort to a higher being.
The pious life is not too much to bear, it is simply not applicable in my case.

C'mon: I don't think I ever used the word weak. I did say that I didn't trust myself...and I don't know that you should either. In fact, in a way, you don't. You seem to agree with most of the morals The Bible presents...and you follow them, I assume. So, in a way, you're using it's suggestions in the same way. You didn't make up the morals you live by today, for the most part, did you?

Like I said: It's easy to call arrogance and pride "faith in oneself."

Quote:

The answering machine sneer is also maybe a bit too harsh.

Well, it doesn't personally annoy me...it just tells me that you've labeled me and placed me on the shelf already...which doesn't seem very open-minded. It's your choice either way, though.

Quote:

I'll explain it then : I've had these discussions before with other devoted Christians and they always ended with "you have your belief and I have mine". I'm perfectly content with that were it not that these statements always seem to have a suggestion that said "You are a good person but I'm a better one because I follow the Holy Book. My arguments need no explanation because it says so right here in the book".
And that last bit is what I object to. If j4u only started one thread and kept himself to that, it would be fine. But he felt the need to actively promote his Higher beliefs in several threads, suggesting that anyone who disagrees hasn't seen the light yet.

I've heard from people like that, too, and I agree, it's not the way to go about things. Biblical quotations are not to be used excessively in situations like this. They mean nothing to people in your situation, I imagine. That's why people hold up signs that say John 3:16: because there are some verses with cut through all that and summarize the faith in a way that anyone can understand and relate to.

Anyway, I don't have any Christian friends, that I know of, who use those kinds of arguments...and I certainly don't agree with it. I prefer to say that I don't have all the answers, rather than I don't need answers because I have The Bible with me.

Quote:

And I can understand your point of view to, it's just that I need to see the first credible evidence that God exists. Before that I simply think that there is no higher being, no afterlife and religion is nothing but a social subculture. I know, 1,8 billion people can't be wrong you say but show me some real evidence then. Not just evidence that says "You can't prove it either so I'm right". If you say I'm standing in front of an invisible table and you argue that it is there because I can't prove that it isn't does not make me more inclined to belief your views. I can understand them.

No, I'm not saying 1.8 billion people can't be wrong: they can. Most of them are wrong in many ways. But I do think there's something to the fact that these beliefs are so widespread, and have been around for such a long time. There's something special in the fact that I'm worshipping much in the same way people did long, long ago.

And hey, don't forget: Jews believe in Jesus, too...they just disagree with some of the details. Muslims believe in Allah -- but that's Jesus, too. They just have another name for him...unless my memory has completely failed me. I think Islam is the second-largest religion in the world, so now we're looking at something like half the world's population. Does size make it right? No...but I do think it needs to be taken into account.

Quote:

I grant you your views and let you live the way you choose but I still think that it would do a great deal of good to your cause if you could provide some real evidence.

Quote:

Just don't ask me to believe you before credible evidence is provided (with credible evidence I mean some fact or facts that undeniably point towards the existance of god)

Well, I'm sure you knew I'd say this, but I find these remarkable levels of complexity to be sufficient evidence. As far as I'm concerned, no side has a monopoly on evidence. There's a heckuva lot of conjecture here...on my side as well, I admit. Quite frankly, the thing I find myself often arguing for is the fact that Christianity is viable: that it's not RIDICULOUS. That evolution is not the only thing a logical, reasonable, intelligent person can believe. The majority of religious arguments I get involved with have that as the central theme: me trying to prove that it's not ridiculous to believe...not me trying to convince everyone else that it's true.
Jan 30th, 2002, 11:47 AM
TWTCommish

Quote:

Originally posted by HarryW
Perhaps. Perhaps it is also easy to mistake faith in oneself for arrogance.

All depends on what your perspective is on where you think people should be placing their faith.

Yep, could be. I don't think it makes sense to say that I'm somehow weak and dependent because I acknowledge the fact that I'm highly biased in my own favor. I think of it as a virtue. I recognize myself as very flawed...and liable to screw up often. I recognize you all the same way. :D
Jan 30th, 2002, 12:13 PM
Wally Pipp

Quote:

Originally posted by TWTCommish

C'mon: I don't think I ever used the word weak. I did say that I didn't trust myself...and I don't know that you should either. In fact, in a way, you don't. You seem to agree with most of the morals The Bible presents...and you follow them, I assume. So, in a way, you're using it's suggestions in the same way. You didn't make up the morals you live by today, for the most part, did you?

Like I said: It's easy to call arrogance and pride "faith in oneself."

as I said : I do not deny the social value of religion. Which is also the reason why it is so widespread. In past times there was either virtually no alternative or people were to, well let's call it 'not spoilt by knowledge of technology".
I abide the moral code of conduct because I too think that killing people is wrong. But not because the Holy Book says so.

Well, it doesn't personally annoy me...it just tells me that you've labeled me and placed me on the shelf already...which doesn't seem very open-minded. It's your choice either way, though.

freedom of speech of course. I've said what I think of you : full respect as a person, a quoter of the Book in some of your beliefs.

I've heard from people like that, too, and I agree, it's not the way to go about things. Biblical quotations are not to be used excessively in situations like this. They mean nothing to people in your situation, I imagine. That's why people hold up signs that say John 3:16: because there are some verses with cut through all that and summarize the faith in a way that anyone can understand and relate to.

Anyway, I don't have any Christian friends, that I know of, who use those kinds of arguments...and I certainly don't agree with it. I prefer to say that I don't have all the answers, rather than I don't need answers because I have The Bible with me.

Same here only without the religious part.I do know some of the above described people.

No, I'm not saying 1.8 billion people can't be wrong: they can. Most of them are wrong in many ways. But I do think there's something to the fact that these beliefs are so widespread, and have been around for such a long time. There's something special in the fact that I'm worshipping much in the same way people did long, long ago.

Because something is a bit of tradition doesn't mean it is the absolute truth "We've always done it that way" ... doesn't make it any more right you know.
But again, if it works for you and the billions of others, why not.
Just don't make the mistake to automatically assume that that shoud be THE way to live your life.

And hey, don't forget: Jews believe in Jesus, too...they just disagree with some of the details. Muslims believe in Allah -- but that's Jesus, too. They just have another name for him...unless my memory has completely failed me. I think Islam is the second-largest religion in the world, so now we're looking at something like half the world's population. Does size make it right? No...but I do think it needs to be taken into account.

Of course. But then again, my point of view counts too.

Well, I'm sure you knew I'd say this, but I find these remarkable levels of complexity to be sufficient evidence. As far as I'm concerned, no side has a monopoly on evidence. There's a heckuva lot of conjecture here...on my side as well, I admit. Quite frankly, the thing I find myself often arguing for is the fact that Christianity is viable: that it's not RIDICULOUS. That evolution is not the only thing a logical, reasonable, intelligent person can believe. The majority of religious arguments I get involved with have that as the central theme: me trying to prove that it's not ridiculous to believe...not me trying to convince everyone else that it's true.

Wanna hear a surprise ? I think you're right on the monopoly part and the conjecture part. :)
Jan 30th, 2002, 12:21 PM
TWTCommish

Wally

Quote:

as I said : I do not deny the social value of religion. Which is also the reason why it is so widespread. In past times there was either virtually no alternative or people were to, well let's call it 'not spoilt by knowledge of technology".
I abide the moral code of conduct because I too think that killing people is wrong. But not because the Holy Book says so.

I think you may have misunderstood me (not sure, though). Regardless of whether or not you believe it BECAUSE of the Holy Book, you do agree with The Bible on many moral issues, it seems. If it were not for The Bible, would you believe these things? If not, then I think my point that most of us cannot necessarily be objective about our own rules and morals is very applicable.

Quote:

freedom of speech of course. I've said what I think of you : full respect as a person, a quoter of the Book in some of your beliefs.

Quoting The Bible isn't necessarily any different than quoting Drawin, Huxley, Lewis or Russell. Quoting someone else is reverting to them as, in at least that area, superior, and better at putting a certain thought into words. If ALL you do is quote, well, that's one thing...but it's just as bad to try to figure it all out yourself. Quoting someone is really just the result of reading what they wrote, and agreeing with it publicly.

Quote:

Because something is a bit of tradition doesn't mean it is the absolute truth "We've always done it that way" ... doesn't make it any more right you know.
But again, if it works for you and the billions of others, why not.
Just don't make the mistake to automatically assume that that shoud be THE way to live your life.

Well, obviously I don't expect that to convince anyone...it's simply something that adds to my faith. Whether you agree with it or not, I think you can understand it. And, sorry to say, I DO assume it is the way to life my life. I have to live my life somehow...so I've chosen the way that fits for me, and that I believe to be the right way.

Quote:

Of course. But then again, my point of view counts too.

Yes, of course. :)

Quote:

Wanna hear a surprise ? I think you're right on the monopoly part and the conjecture part. :)

That is a bit of a surprise. :)
Jan 30th, 2002, 12:37 PM
Wally Pipp

Quote:

Originally posted by TWTCommish
[B]Wally

I think you may have misunderstood me (not sure, though). Regardless of whether or not you believe it BECAUSE of the Holy Book, you do agree with The Bible on many moral issues, it seems. If it were not for The Bible, would you believe these things? If not, then I think my point that most of us cannot necessarily be objective about our own rules and morals is very applicable.

you were very clear. I meant that I wouldn't do these things because either a) I can't bring myself to do it, b) It is not my decision to make or c) every human is equal. Thus the moral code spells out what I believe that makes a society viable and safe.
No matter what background.
They would've been there anyway, Bible or not.

Quoting The Bible isn't necessarily any different than quoting Drawin, Huxley, Lewis or Russell. Quoting someone else is reverting to them as, in at least that area, superior, and better at putting a certain thought into words. If ALL you do is quote, well, that's one thing...but it's just as bad to try to figure it all out yourself. Quoting someone is really just the result of reading what they wrote, and agreeing with it publicly.

Figuring out things yourself isn't bad. It's an exercise in self judgement. What do I make out of it ? How do I see ? How do I explain it ?
Of course, many books have been written in the course of time and it is difficult to form an opinion without any influence whatsoever.
Relying on a book to explain the most private and fundamental things of life doesn't sound too appealing to me.
I'd rather work out for myself what is important in my life.

Well, obviously I don't expect that to convince anyone...it's simply something that adds to my faith. Whether you agree with it or not, I think you can understand it. And, sorry to say, I DO assume it is the way to life my life. I have to live my life somehow...so I've chosen the way that fits for me, and that I believe to be the right way.

Which is your right as an individual. The problem there is that while it is THE way for YOU, it doesn't necessarily mean that is THE right way altogether. Which is something J4U automatically assumes. You are a bit moderate in that aspect but only by a slight margin.

Yes, of course. :)

Glad you see it that way :)

That is a bit of a surprise. :)

didn't see it coming ? And I thought we were getting along so well ... (only joking)
Jan 30th, 2002, 03:38 PM
beachbum

"The more you say the less people remember. The fewer the words, the greater the profit. "
Jan 30th, 2002, 04:31 PM
peet

Quote:

Originally posted by beachbum
"The more you say the less people remember. The fewer the words, the greater the profit. "

u wise bum u :)
Jan 30th, 2002, 04:33 PM
Wally Pipp

It's Bumfucius !! :eek:
Jan 30th, 2002, 05:31 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by simonm
Adam and Eve were not created perfect. Eve was tempted into eating the forbidden apple. You can't tempt someone unless they already have suppressed inclinations to do something. She was built by God with evil inclinations. The first sin was therefore innevitable and just a matter of time.

I disagree. It is certainly possible to tempt someone to do something they would otherwise never do. I do believe they were created perfect.

Quote:

Originally posted by simonm
But these are not innevitable consequances that God has no control over. If he decides to punish us for some sin, God chooses to impose it. He is not obliged to. Going back to my "prisoner" analogy, I could say to the prisoner that he can run if he wants to. It's just that me pulling the trigger is the innevitable consequance of that action.

It would be inconsistent for God to propose and institute a rule and then reverse it later. That's why Jesus died. He died as a perfect human to offset Adam's sin, or as payment for it. Sure, he probably could've forgone the whole thing and made us all perfect anyway, but it probably would've meant breaking statutes he had instituted earlier.

Quote:

Originally posted by simonm

Quote:

Likewise, becoming a sinner is a consequence of breaking God's laws.

...or just being born.

We do have the opportunity (through Jesus) to rid ourselves completely of sin.

TWTCommish
I do believe Adam and Eve were created perfect. I see no reason not to think so.

Quote:

Originally posted by TWTCommish
And hey, don't forget: Jews believe in Jesus, too...they just disagree with some of the details. Muslims believe in Allah -- but that's Jesus, too. They just have another name for him...unless my memory has completely failed me. I think Islam is the second-largest religion in the world, so now we're looking at something like half the world's population. Does size make it right? No...but I do think it needs to be taken into account.

Allah is God..or do you believe God is Jesus?

Quote:

Originally posted by Wally Pipp
Just don't ask me to believe you before credible evidence is provided (with credible evidence I mean some fact or facts that undeniably point towards the existance of god)

There are numerous prophecies in the bible that were written down centuries before getting fulfilled. I don't know if this claim is anywhere near proof enough for you, but there it is. I'm sure you've heard it before, though, so it probably isn't enough.

I, personnaly, have seen enough to believe in the existence of God. But, unfortunately, some people want more. I say it's unfortunate because if indeed there is a God, these people are in serious trouble.
Jan 30th, 2002, 06:01 PM
Suidae

Has anyone given any thought of to the REAL bottom line on all of this? Your soul will be saved but it will cost you. Religion is not a big business it is a huge business. Do some research, it doesn’t matter which religion, they are all stinking rich and all in the name of God.

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