Non aggression pact.

Quote:

---

Originally posted by venerable bede
That is true.

The question you must ask yourself from the perspective of the Islamic World is :

What has the West done to improve our lives in the last 500 years?
Modern Medicine, Innoculations (I mean halh these people would not be alive if it were not for this), Modern Transport and Communications, Democracy, Trade e.t.c , e.t.c

The question you must ask yourself from the perspective of the Western World is :

What has theIslamic World done to improve our lives in the last 500 years?
.
.
.
.
.
.

.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
:confused: :confused: :confused: :confused:

Exactly!

---

On democracy, I don't think we gave them that, because to my knowledge, no arab country is a democracy.

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Arc
ALL of the UN inspectors said today that IRAQ is STILL in material breach of the UN resolution.

---

So is Israel. When are you declare war on them?

Quote:

---

They KNOW for a fact that IRAQ had 1000's of biological and chemical weapons...IRAQ says they no longer do...but IRAQ will show no proof of where the weapons went, or how they were destroyed.

---

So do Korea. When are you going to declare war on them?

Quote:

---

That is a breach. That alone is enough reason for war according to the UN.

IT IS NOT the UN's job to FIND hidden Weapons...it is IRAQ's job to PROVE that they no longer have them!!!! UNDERSTAND!!!?!?!?!?!?!?!?! Nope you don't... [/B]

---

Let me tell you something you may not be aware of. The real reason containment remains the US policy of choice in North Korea, but a dirty word when it comes to Iraq, has nothing to do with international law and a lot to do with crude military reality.

The Korean leader (let's call him "Kim") is being handled gently not in spite of his transgressions, but because of them. He already has the bomb and could conceivably destroy South Korea and large parts of Japan if attacked.

Meanwhile, because Saddam's weapons programmes have proceeded more slowly under more intense international scrutiny, he is more vulnerable.

Having begun 2002 vowing to bring "regime change" to Iraq, Washington has faced an uphill struggle in persuading the UN security council (a body whose usefulness the US belatedly remembered) that its primary interest was disarmament. The about-turn required some unconvincing wordplay from Colin Powell, and the White House spokesman, Ari Fleischer, who both suggested that if it comprehensively disarmed, the Baghdad regime would by definition have "changed", and might therefore be permitted to stay in power.

Furthermore, by warning Saddam Hussein that he will be a target whatever he does, it takes away any incentive he might have had to surrender his most fearsome means of defence.

All this has implanted a deep snese of distrust in teh US's potential Allies, cumulating in teh Brits being their only Ally so far, adn even that is beginning to turn.

You may think you are doing the right thing, but when the rest of the world think you are not, then perhaps it is time to listen.

And anyway, I thought this was about bringing Osam Bin Laden to justice? What happened to that?

Quote:

---

Originally posted by venerable bede
The fact is the Islamic world has done nothing to improve the lives of anyone in centuries and because of this they have one hell of a chip on their shoulder.

I will be more than happy to accept the mistakes of the West if these sodomites would just acknoledge our achievments.

Chances of that happening:

0.0000001%

******s

---

But since when was Western society and it's "advancements" life improving? All I see around me is fat kids going mental on additives, an ever increasing legitious, sueing society, growing disparity between rich and poor leading to isolation of groups, the breakdown of altruism in society, probably enough to write a book on.
Capitalism is one of primary issues that Islam has against the West.

I have seen many comments in this thread claiming that this party owes that party something-or-other. This is what this world has come to... :(

The last comment was exactly my thought. I somewhere else argued that Capitalism and its offshoots have more than enough to answer for the social inequalities, decline in social spirit and human compassion. That's what you get when you thrive on inequality and competition. Ruthless consumerism, buy buy buy and greed all over, some accomplishments we have.

I wonder what will happen if all our natural resources are depleted ...

People are forgetting that the world has always been devided. Countries have friends that they rely on and are faithfull to and they also have enemys. ALL countries would want to avenge anything done to attack them and their true allies would watch them and advise them.

Irrelevant to what you think is happening now, the UN is there to assure and communicate between friendly countries. There are differing opinions on Iraq and this has meant that the UN is called in to find out the truth and will find out what is going on. America and Britain must believe in what they are saying because yesterday they revealed new information for the UN to use and invstigate, this may shed light onto what the government are worried about and reveal the truth.

If you think i am lying then why do you think America hasnt attacked already??? They do want their friends behind them, Britain is one of a few that supports America but has not stated it wants war. This has prevented America from feeling left out and running out on there high horses and attacking Iraq. Irrelivant to what anyone says here our countries are friends are dealing with the situation in the best way possible.


I am sorry about the mistakes i am too tired to care about them!!:D :D :D :D :D

Well, I think the system has developed in such as way that once the natural resources peter out, we have the technology to make new burger machines and bottles of Aloe Vera all-in-one shampoo using alternative power (ironically Nuclear power seems the most efficient).
But I reckon we'll have all blown ourselves to bits before then anyway.
I blame Watt. If he hadn't sealied the steam engine to replace horses, the rat race would never have started...

I've never contested that bUK :)

But you can still proffer an opinion right ? Or is that also bound to the them-or-us logic that pervades all areas of western society ?

Consistancy. The US cannot expect Allies if they are not consistant with their views.

UN resolutions - not consistant. How about Israel?
War on terrorism - what happened to the bad guy?
Post 9/11 fervour - the rest of the world think the US over-reacted in the media. Hard, but true.
Foreign Policy - Israle, Nicaragua, Grenada, Vietnam, Chile, Iran-Contra, Iraq - the list goes on
Weapons of Mass Destruction - Hippocracy

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Gaffer

Capitalism is one of primary issues that Islam has against the West.

---

All the improvements to life in the Islamic world is the result of Capitalism. Invention needs motivation and profit has always been a great motivator.

Besides, what the hell do you think the Islamic world used to do in it's hey day. They bought, sold and traded.

They never complained then. Not when they where on top of eveyone. They shoudnt worry as much about the west as they should over India, the far east and China.

India is like an Oasis surrounded by Islamic crapola. Open minded thinkers will always reap the rewards.

If Islam has a problem with Capitalism it should throw away all advancements in technology, their mobile phones, telephones all electrical goods, medicine, transport and go back to their mud huts.

THEN THEY WOULD HAVE A RIGHT TO COMPLAIN.

I beg to differ: Necessity is the mother of invention, not profit. Profit only produces inventions that we don't really need. What the hell do I need a PDA for? It's not necessary, it's Capitalism toying with my purchsing emotions.

The problem that people of Islam have is that Capitalism is professionally promoted, relying on the senses to sell sell sell. And once the populous have been beaten into submittion by pictures of rake-thin models and bronzed adonis', there's no going back. Have you seen that advert on TV for Peugeot? The one where the young Indian guy drives his beat up car into a wall, then spends all night hammering the bodywork so it looks like a Peugeot hatchback he saw in a magazine? That's what I'm talking about.

What the hell do I think people of Islam did in it's hey day? You're right, they bought, sold, and traded. Much the same as everyone else did, to survive. Don't get cought in the trap in thinking that Western Society is the perfect society to live in, the society that the whole world aspires to. It's not.

PS Mud Huts? You'll be calling them niggers next...

I'm sorry if some people feel that we are being anti-american by speaking our minds. I have re-read the last few pages, and all I see are people expressing an opinion.

I think some of the Americans on this forum might be confusing questioning Bush's motives and actions with being anti-American, but nothing could be further from the truth. In all the Western worlds we enjoy great freedom of speech. To deny that freedom of speech because it questions the actions of one of the many Western leaders is a very dangerous precedence to set.

I know a few Americans who also share this same view of their illustrious leader. They are very patriotic people who love the US, but it doesn't mean that you have to follow blindly.

Oh, and if we're getting rid of Islam, can we also get rid of the Christianity. It hasn't done an awful lot of good in the last few thousand years either.

Cheers,

SD

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Wally Pipp
The last comment was exactly my thought. I somewhere else argued that Capitalism and its offshoots have more than enough to answer for the social inequalities, decline in social spirit and human compassion. That's what you get when you thrive on inequality and competition. Ruthless consumerism, buy buy buy and greed all over, some accomplishments we have.

I wonder what will happen if all our natural resources are depleted ...

---

The global oil production will peak in 2005 and will be halved in 2025

well with the increase in gas/electric cars in production.. hopefully they will become the norm.. which should at least help (although not eliminate the problem) but if all the cars on the road were getting an average of 50-70 MPG that would defenitly help...

GM is releasing a new line over the next few years of these cars and so is saturn... of course honda and toyota already have these on the market...

the raise in gas prices is also a reason people are buying these..

it doesn't solve the problem that people overuse energy in the first place

"Post 9/11 fervour - the rest of the world think the US over-reacted in the media. Hard, but true." - ???

I realize I don't speak for the all of the USA, but personally I don't think it's possble to over-react to more than 3000 innocent people being killed in a matter of hours. To tell you the truth I don't give a damn what the rest of world thinks.

How exactly should the US have responded in the media?
Should we have begged for mercy or forgiveness for our terrible evils?

It was a clear and very real act of war, without no recognized nation behind it. How would your countries have reacted to an attack of that scale? Would they wait for the worlds approval before they did whatever they could think of to prevent it from happening again?

You are so right my brother.

We did the right thing by going out and killing 3,000 more innocent civilians.

Praise the lord. It was devinine retribution on their heathen asses. Hell, that'll teach those innocent farmers who's the boss. None of them will F' with the good ole US of A again....

Man, I feel so proud of myself and my country, I could almost cry.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/1740538.stm

Quote:

---

Originally posted by kleinma
well with the increase in gas/electric cars in production.. hopefully they will become the norm.. which should at least help (although not eliminate the problem) but if all the cars on the road were getting an average of 50-70 MPG that would defenitly help...

GM is releasing a new line over the next few years of these cars and so is saturn... of course honda and toyota already have these on the market...

the raise in gas prices is also a reason people are buying these..

---

What about the hydrogen/electric hybrid ? Is that too researched by GM (that you know of) ?
Because that sounds like a good idea. Granted, won't churn out the high speeds but it's much more environmentally safe that the big petrol guzzlers driving around the US right now :)

I think hydrogen/electric hybrid cars are mainly developed by BMW and Mercedes.

Quote:

---

How exactly should the US have responded in the media?

---

3000 innocent people died. Let's think about how many innocent people die every year in other countries because of hunger or anywhere in the world (even the US) because of natural catastrophes. Why do the 3000 of 9/11 get so much more media coverage? Most of the others get a bit of text running an the bottom line of CNN. 9/11 got months of constant coverage.
It's not about the people for the media, it's only about the shock effect this event had on the Americans. The media is overreacting, playing this up larger than anything that has ever happened except for full-scale wars.

And I believe this is a big reason why the Americans are so extremly upset about it. After all the modern society is governed by the media.

May have already been discussed, but it had in the paper today that NK would treat any attempt by the UN to place sanctions as and act of war.

:confused:

I'm totally confused by what there trying to achieve. Maybe they are part of an "Axis of Evil" and are simply trying to stall so that Iraq has chance.

An interesting article,

http://news.ninemsn.com.au/World/story_28276.asp

Quote:

---

North Korea is sending sharply mixed messages, vowing to "smash US nuclear maniacs" in a "holy war" while its diplomats told a US politician their country had no intention of building nuclear bombs.

---

Btw have to support the US on the WW2 message.
While it is true that it were the populations and soldiers of GB, Russia and the other European allies that won the war, they did so with massive support from the US. The US delivered enormous amounts of weapons and ammunition (and even complete tanks) to all allies.
Without those weapons the war would have probably been won by the axis.

Quote:

---

3000 innocent people died. Let's think about how many innocent people die every year in other countries because of hunger or anywhere in the world (even the US) because of natural catastrophes. Why do the 3000 of 9/11 get so much more media coverage? Most of the others get a bit of text running an the bottom line of CNN. 9/11 got months of constant coverage.

---

I can tell you why this probably is. Think of this analogy. Some poor dirt farmer is brutally murdered in Poland; does this mean a lot to the international press? Nope, it probably doesn’t get a blurb on CNN. Then we have President of France that gets assassinated; does this get a lot of international press? Sure does....lots and lots of press. Why is this? Probably the same reason people actually spend money on magazines that tell all sorts of stories about celebrities. You wouldn’t find a magazine devoted to stories of common people you didn’t know selling very well would you?

The United States is the last remaining Super Power in the world. Its influence culturally, economically, and militarily reaches around the globe. If something like 9/11 happens here its going to be big news just because of how prominant the US is on the world scene. Not to mention that the mainland of the US has never suffered from such attacks in the past. This was a first on this kind of magnitude.

The media puts on what they think people will watch, for ratings. If they didn’t think people would watch the 9/11 stuff they wouldn’t have covered it for so long. I know a lot of people out there think it was over done. But if the audience wasn’t there they wouldn't have kept showing it....

I know - I think that's a problem.

Sure people are dying every day of hunger and murder etc. The attack on sept 11 was a direct attack against the western way of life and was the second attempt made on it. I am sorry to say that it is not our fault that people cant grow food in desert areas and so starve but we do try and send them aid as best we can. Comic relief and many other events are held in the UK to make money for these things. We cant stop people dying but we can stop attacking them and causing unnecassary death!!!!

Alot of people died in the war on terror in Afganistan but it was a war!! I am sorry to say it but you must also consider many of those (most of them) where soldiers and if they werent killed would have killed others.


I was REALLY disturbed at how many documentaries were on Sept 11th, what was an attack on America by terrorists had turned into a frenzy by tv companies to get more viewers, the same for other things eg People dont see news on many hunger deaths until the media think people are INTERESTED in it. They dont tell us when we need to know but when THEY think WE are INTERESTED in it!!!! *** is this world coming to????


Add to that the fact that here in the UK every day there is news on football and this takes twice the time that any significant news takes to read!!!! The world is becoming a Fuc*** up place because of the press and this includes papers like the "Sun"and "News Of The World" and practically every other paper out there who more or less joke about serious things and then act really seriously about the crap things (Like Football)


P.s it is a hell of a lot more influential to people when a president is assasinated than a polish farmer. When the figure head of a country is killed it affects the whole country whereas when a polish farmer dies it affects all that know him. I am sorry to say this but so many murders and nasty things go on in the world that we cant watch news on all of them there just arent enough hours in the day. Local news does cover these events because it effects the local community not the world, the assasination of a president or leader DOES effect the world!!!!:eek: :eek: :eek:

Quote:

---

Originally posted by BodwadUK
... and practically every other paper out there who more or less joke about serious things and then act really seriously about the crap things (Like Football)

---

We should make it a policy to skip the every other paper and read the next....





















I know, it's a bad joke.

.

Quote:

---

Originally posted by GearRunr
[BTo tell you the truth I don't give a damn what the rest of world thinks.[/B]

---

There you go guys, this the whole problem summed up in a nutshell.

Thank you, and good night...

And we're the bad guys for not responding to your emotional distress "in the proper way" after a year of CNN propaganda style news, constant reminders every hour of the day for over a year and media exploitation, for looking at the problems from all sides, for not jumping the conclusions (Oh I remember the 9/11 debates here), for trying to be diplomatic and rational about it ...

Quote:

---

you must also consider many of those (most of them) where soldiers and if they werent killed would have killed others.

---

there's no need for hypocritical excuses

Quote:

---

there's no need for hypocritical excuses

---

But i am only stating the truth!!!!!!!:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:


They went out there to kill others in the name of the terrorists, they want to kill then that makes them dangerous and i for one would not want to meet them!!!! Would YOU???:confused: :confused: :confused:

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Xanith
The media puts on what they think people will watch, for ratings. If they didn’t think people would watch the 9/11 stuff they wouldn’t have covered it for so long. I know a lot of people out there think it was over done. But if the audience wasn’t there they wouldn't have kept showing it....

---

This is true to a point. If you exclude the 9/11 coverage - on the day it was understandibly a media free-for-all - you see a very strange phenomonen. With regards to the media coverage of the "War Against (not all types of) Terrorism", it seems that teh White house has a pretty strong hold over what is published and what is not.

God forbid any US journolist who questions the hippocracy ensconced in the decision to threaten action against countries who break UN resolutions, except for Israel. I have read reports where journos who show any kind of opinion suddenly find their paper devoid of ANY current info from the White House, adn that most stories emulating from Washington are indeed WRITTEN by officials, controlling spin more than David Beckham.

It is the foreign broadsheet press that are asking the difficult questions, writing the difficult articles. Accordign to one paper, whilst almost 50% of American emails received in response to these articles ire abusive to the notion that there are some people that disagree with US policy, the otehr 50% are asking "Why can we not get such such articles in the US?"

AFAIK, it's only the New York Times that offers any resistance...

You're right Gaffer, the American media does things like printing quotes or other sentences out of there original context to spin their point of view. You know, kind of like what you did to mine a couple posts ago.

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Gaffer
God forbid any US journolist who questions the hippocracy ensconced in the decision to threaten action against countries who break UN resolutions, except for Israel. I have read reports where journos who show any kind of opinion suddenly find their paper devoid of ANY current info from the White House, adn that most stories emulating from Washington are indeed WRITTEN by officials, controlling spin more than David Beckham.

It is the foreign broadsheet press that are asking the difficult questions, writing the difficult articles. Accordign to one paper, whilst almost 50% of American emails received in response to these articles ire abusive to the notion that there are some people that disagree with US policy, the otehr 50% are asking "Why can we not get such such articles in the US?"

AFAIK, it's only the New York Times that offers any resistance...

---

Surely all this has come out of a strong anti-US sentiments. The US is a FREE country, the FREEest of the world, isn't it?





:rolleyes:

.

I take comfort in the fact that this can only be irony.

Quote:

---

Originally posted by GearRunr
You're right Gaffer, the American media does things like printing quotes or other sentences out of there original context to spin their point of view. You know, kind of like what you did to mine a couple posts ago.

---

Hey, don't accuse me of spin - I quoted you directly

Quote:

---

To tell you the truth I don't give a damn what the rest of world thinks.

---

Direct from your post. There was nothing contextual about your comment - it was pure statement...

Every country has done some very nasty things in the past, if you believe your countries are not doing equally bad things then your on another planet!!!!!!!! Every country protects its own interests, to argue that America has done them is to say that your country hasn't and thats just BOLLOC**!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Wokawidget
A bit like the English V's The Scottish at Dunkirk...

"ARCHERS!"
"Errr...Sir, if we use the archers, won't we hit our own men?!"
"Yes...but we'll hit theirs as well"

---

errr, Dunkirk??!?!? :confused:

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Gaffer
I have seen many comments in this thread claiming that this party owes that party something-or-other. This is what this world has come to... :(

---

Damn right you are! My records show me that your ancestors tortured my ancestors about 120 years back when the British ruled India, and so my ancestors stand to receive INR 2,00,00,00,000/- from your ancestors. Since the ancestors are dead, you owe me this sum. Please send the INR 2 as soon as possible. The remaining zeroes can be sent at your convenience. Commas need not be sent.

.

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Wokawidget
Grrrr...bad Woka *SLAP*

---

Are you Dobby the House-Elf in disguise?

.

Quote:

---

Originally posted by honeybee
Damn right you are! My records show me that your ancestors tortured my ancestors about 120 years back when the British ruled India, and so my ancestors stand to receive INR 2,00,00,00,000/- from your ancestors. Since the ancestors are dead, you owe me this sum. Please send the INR 2 as soon as possible. The remaining zeroes can be sent at your convenience. Commas need not be sent.

.

---

Good job Sterling is strong these days *hands over £1.53 to HB.... ;)

Of course you're absolutely correct with your comment: I pretty much stated that on one of my first posts in this thread. However, few countrys can hold their hands up in innocence - the UK has been victim to invasion and war since the start of mankind, as well as dishing it out.

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Wokawidget
Narrr....am no elf.
Merely a poor misguided badger trying to make a hard honest living :(

Woka

---

That proves you are Dobby the House-elf. You are not wearing your tea-cosy though :p

Gaffer, the day all nations realize that they need to sit down and chart a course of action for the future, you (and me) and the other sensible lots around the world can take a break to Mars. However I don't think it's going to happen in the near future :rolleyes:

Btw, thanks for the money, I have to buy a new shirt. My boss hates seeing me in my underwear :p

.