I suppose once TDS takes root there is no seeing reality.
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I suppose once TDS takes root there is no seeing reality.
No it wasn't. You exploited the resources that were in front of you and pretty much exterminated an entire race of people (arguably multiple races) in the process. And it wasn't even you that exploited those resources; that would be the slaves you conveniently choose to ignore. And when that became unacceptable you shipped in a bunch of Mexicans on exploitation wages to do it before then blaming them for... well... doing what you were asking them to do. That's no more earned than any other nation in history. And no less immoral.Quote:
My point is that "it" was earned
Yes, it is. We're at peace with it. We have been for over half a century.Quote:
British Imperialism is done.
But it aint us whining about our victimhood and how hard we've got it while being amongst the most privileged people in the world. That's all you, baby.
Yeah, I guess so. You're sufficient proof of that.Quote:
Originally Posted by dilettante
You don't give us enough credit. We've exploited anyone who was exploitable. Not just slaves and Mexicans.Quote:
No it wasn't. You exploited the resources that were in front of you and pretty much exterminated an entire race of people (arguably multiple races) in the process. And it wasn't even you that exploited those resources; that would be the slaves you conveniently choose to ignore. And when that became unacceptable you shipped in a bunch of Mexicans on exploitation wages to do it before then blaming them for... well... doing what you were asking them to do. That's no more earned than any other nation in history. And no less immoral.
But that's not unique to us.
Knowing you have this problem means you have a chance to get better! :bigyello:Quote:
Originally Posted by dilettante
I think the last time I witnessed debate of this caliber may have been in Pee Wee's Big Adventure.
You'll get no arguments from me thereQuote:
But that's not unique to us.
Frankly I ignored that. I don't recall directing that to you. Does the foo ****? If so, wear it!Quote:
I reiterate: please elaborate on why you think I have Trump Derangement Syndrome.
There is no war against Iran. An action was legally undertaken and it is over. There are no gripes about it now from any reputable quarter. Time to move on. I'd rather we'd kept our distance and not done that, but as usual a terrible mess of the Brits' making was about to boil over. And, s usual, we had to wipe their bottoms. Again. I agree that this must cease.
The spending bill was a compromise. Does it have too much spending? No question. But even with my apprehensions I think the good things in it probably couldn't be achieved any other way, and probably not before the left ramps up its calls for (and actual) insurrection to a point where normal governing becomes very difficult.
I'm as puzzled by the Epstein list suppression as anyone. I sure can't explain it away.
Yes, he is.Quote:
Are you deliberately gas lighting
Dil's technique is to throw a gish gallop of hyperbole into the space and then refuse to defend any of it. The hope is that the next piece of nonsense will distract from the last piece. It's why he's still failed to even attempt to defend his sense of victimhood alongside his overwhelming privilege - move along... nothing to see here... the British are bad people (while overlooking the history of US involvement in the overthrow of Iranian governments)... concentrate on that, please... if you don't you're deranged.
Sprinkle that with a bunch of ad hominems (which I've taken to returning in kind because... why not) and attempts to poison the well of any source outside of his narrow selection of far right conspiracies and, yes, I think you could fairly call that gas lighting.
Maybe we should be helping Dil since he's carry all his eggs in one basket.
Now Dil, try again, but real hard to use constructive dialog to explain yourself in a response to what dday9 wrote in his post:
https://www.vbforums.com/showthread....=1#post5680355
Why bother? Nobody is listening.
Actually, I'd like to encourage Dil in regard to his post #2224. When he puts some substance behind his words, he has something to say that is often worth hearing. It's the snide references to things like TDS (which made it into The Economist, though it was used to describe Republicans) that annoy me...and I have often felt that that was WHY he made snide references. Throwing stones is always the easier position.
I can see why Dil is saying that the attack on Iran wasn't a war. For America, it was a single strike, which amounts to no more than a bargaining position at this point. I don't think it is over, but I also recognize that it might work out okay (with the caveat that you can't follow more than one path at once, so we can never be certain). This could lead to some severely bad outcomes, but it could also lead to some decidedly positive outcomes...and it could also result in nothing much at all.
I have never put any thought into the Epstein files, and am not surprised that they were suppressed. I don't know what they would mean in any case. A rich guy associated with a bunch of other rich guys. He also engaged in under age sex trafficking, so it may be that he did that with the rich guys he associated with. Do these files show that? Do they suggest that? I have no idea. If they are just guest lists for parties that anybody can read whatever they want into, then it wouldn't surprise me that nobody wants those to be released. The lists would include the Clintons and the Trumps. That shouldn't surprise anybody, they attended plenty of the same parties over the 80s and 90s. What does it mean? Nothing much, to me.
I also felt Dil's views on the spending bill, once he said them, were quite reasonable. I don't see good things in there, just a massive amount of aimless gifts. I recognize that I will be the beneficiary of some of those gifts, which I don't need or want. It's irresponsible governance with no underlying vision, but we really haven't seen anything else for a very long time. When it comes to fiscal matters, the last time I felt there was a president who entered office with a fiscal vision that was optional, was W, and his vision got snuffed out with 9/11. Everybody else has either been reacting (the rest of W's administration, Obama, and Biden), or directing by whim (Trump) with majorities so slim, or absent, that you end up with bills like the Bad, Bezerk, Boondoggle (BBB). Unable to lose more than a vote or two, the bill is stuffed full of nutty things to get one or another person onboard. Some matter little, like the tax break for native American whale captains, some will hurt a whole lot of people, like the medicaid cuts. Still, I can see Dil's point of view on that bill, and we likely agree on many aspects of it, I just see a mess, where he sees a mess with some benefits.
I'm with you on the BBB (your definition).Quote:
I also felt Dil's views on the spending bill, once he said them, were quite reasonable. I don't see good things in there, just a massive amount of aimless gifts. I recognize that I will be the beneficiary of some of those gifts, which I don't need or want. It's irresponsible governance with no underlying vision, but we really haven't seen anything else for a very long time. When it comes to fiscal matters, the last time I felt there was a president who entered office with a fiscal vision that was optional, was W, and his vision got snuffed out with 9/11. Everybody else has either been reacting (the rest of W's administration, Obama, and Biden), or directing by whim (Trump) with majorities so slim, or absent, that you end up with bills like the Bad, Bezerk, Boondoggle (BBB). Unable to lose more than a vote or two, the bill is stuffed full of nutty things to get one or another person onboard. Some matter little, like the tax break for native American whale captains, some will hurt a whole lot of people, like the medicaid cuts. Still, I can see Dil's point of view on that bill, and we likely agree on many aspects of it, I just see a mess, where he sees a mess with some benefits.
Raising our debt by trillions so you can give tax breaks and do various other narrowly beneficial things while cutting medicaid doesn't makes financial sense or the humane approach. Do we really need to spend $85 million to move a space shuttle from DC to Texas. The Trump Account doesn't serve peoples needs. In 18 years you'll have @ $2,400. That might get you one semester in a community college, probably not by then. Add the cost of administering the program and you don't get much for your money.
I'll also benefit from the bill, the extras $6,000 tax deduction will help me a little. But I pay little to no taxes already. Anyone who is paying taxes on their social security is not the very low income sector that really needs help.
I don't blame this mess of a bill on just Trump, I agree with dday, this is just status quo.
That being said, I'm not claiming to have read the complete bill. "native American whale captains", that was news to me. Probably how they got the Alaska senators vote. lol
Yes, that was for the Alaska vote. There can't be all that many native American whale captains, but it still wasn't a fluke. I'm pretty sure they passed it on porpoise, though I don't have a cetacean on that.
This doesn't seem to have any benefit for the US and completely ignores the harm being done to the individuals involved.
https://www.yahoo.com/news/legally-s...230557492.html
This seems to be something done purely to meet a quota so they can brag about how many people they deported.
I have no problem with deporting people that are in the country illegally. I have no problem deporting people here on a temporary status that are convicted of committing a felony. But this action is callous with no consideration to the people affected.
Our country has had an immigration problem for many years and I would like to see more control. But it's just being perverted into a political show pony.
So they have been here since 1999?
I guess we have different ideas about the definition of "temporary."
We need a significant number of migrant workers because we have a significant number of migrant jobs. These don't have to be migrants from outside the country, but since the jobs largely suck, the only people who will do them are likely not US citizens. The jobs tend to be outside and manual labor, but they underpin a lot of the housing and food supply in this country. Of course, we could get rid of all that, because we could switch to importing all our food, and we could raise prices for housing. Labor may not be the primary issue with house building anyways, as planning and zoning may be a bigger issue.
The way we've handled it, thus far, though, is by not addressing it. Legal immigration and temporary worker visas have been in steep decline...probably. It looks like nobody is quite certain for the last several years. Trump has said they will be severely curtailed, which started in his first term and has been uncertain ever since.
I don't know the current political conditions in Honduras and Nicaragua or why these people needed to leave. I don't understand why you think people that have been contributing members of our society for over 25 years need to leave at all. But I do see the problem that they have not become "official" US citizens. I don't know the process for that to happen or if that's is an option for them. This seems to be one of the major problems with the TPS system. There doesn't seem to be any definition on what these peoples next steps should be or any kind of timeline for them completing them. I'm for fixing the system, not punishing those caught up in a flawed system.Quote:
I can understand where this would not be a popular position and in terms of priority I'd like to see these people leave last, but at the same time it is hard to justify why most of the TPS participants in this article still need a protected status.
What actions from the current administration in this deportation frenzy would make you believe this administration would take a reasonable approach and try to do the right thing?Quote:
In fact, I think if the Trump administration would direct USCIS to prioritize those effected since they've already entered the US legally via TPS and maintained a lawful residency, then their path to naturalization could be fast tracked.
Edit:
I got curious so I Google "can TPS become permanent residents", this is what I got from the AI
Quote:
While Temporary Protected Status (TPS) itself doesn't provide a direct path to permanent residency or citizenship, individuals with TPS can apply for a green card through other avenues if they meet the eligibility requirements for those paths. These alternative pathways often involve family-based or employment-based petitions.
It's not about our definition, I don't think the TPS ever established a definition.Quote:
Originally Posted by dilettante
Bogus.
Where illegals have been eliminated Americans are already taking those jobs. And there are plenty more able-bodied welfare queens sitting pretty today but in need of work tomorrow.
Large swathes of the ag sector have indeed profited from subsidized slave labor. Those days are beginning to end.
Legal migrant farm workers are an entirely different thing, and have long been welcomed and are covered by very long-standing visa programs. Substandard housing and abusively low wages have long been addressed.
Slaves States like California naturally have their noses out of joint. Where will the child labor to tend their pot farms come from? What about the need for gardeners, housekeepers, and nannies who will work for a pittance under threat of reporting to ICE? There aren't enough prisoners to fight the frequent fires and work the road gangs for peanuts.
Not to mention the sex slavery and pedophilia wrapped within it all.
And then there is the puffing up of population totals in order to gain excess Congressional representation and Electoral Collage seats. Thankfully, that's about to come to an end as well.
I think we should be able to agree that "temporary" does not mean "permanent" - at least outside of Orwellian double-speak.Quote:
Originally Posted by wes4dbt
We can also agree that temporary often turns into permanent with immigration. Otherwise how did we all end up being citizens?Quote:
Originally Posted by dilettante
We killed the residents.
In any case, we need temporary workers, and in large numbers. The solution we have come up with is to do nothing. The solution Trump has come up with is to get rid of all of them. Neither of those is a solution to the problem we have.
I find that a very compelling argument. If we've let them stay here for 25 years, they've established them selves as contributing members of are society, then what reason is there to force them to leave after such a long period of time? Give them a pathway to citizenship. It's a win win.Quote:
I also don't hear an argument for why there is a need for these people to stay under a temporary protected status other than it doesn't seem right to just take it away after so long.
He reversed course on that statement within days. Both verbally and in action. Currently there are raids on Ag workers out in the fields by ICE happening here in CA. I'm not pointing that out to say it's right or wrong for ICE to conduct these raiders, just that Trump didn't cave on this subject.Quote:
Trump started caving when agricultural businesses started pointing out that if 25-50% of their workforce gets deported then that will hurt his economy.
It took me a while to figure out what you meant by "We killed the residents". My guess is you were referring to the native Americans.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker
We definitely need temporary workers but I would not say temporary workers and TPS are the same thing. But our actions have basically been the same for both groups.
That's some pretty twisted logic to justify creating a servant underclass.Quote:
Originally Posted by wes4dbt
Few people came here in the past with the means to get bored and run home after a dalliance with residence here. I think you know this full well, just as you know that foreign invasion sneaking in under the radar is not the same sort of thing at all.
I'd like to imagine that this worldview is just demented and willingly uninformed. Sadly it seems far more likely to be selfish and immoral based on desire for a servant underclass we hadn't seen since plantation slavery. Counting them in the Census also helped give these miscreants outsized political power.
Apparently criminal culture is also a prized development of this societal unraveling.
I doubt the Democratic Party has a hope in hell of becoming relevant again, no matter how fast and hard they turn and spit out the Left. But anything is possible if they can roll back everything to at least pre-Reagan causes and policies. It isn't healthy to have one political voice in charge since without opposition there is no check on corruption.
Perhaps the sedition and treason trials and sentences will chase more rats off that sinking ship before it's gone?
Didn't they drag the body of Mussolini behand a car on a tour of Italy after he was deposed and executed?
That got to be one of the most twisted and nonsensical replies I've ever read and completely irrelevant to the quote it was responding to.Quote:
Originally Posted by dilettante
Add to that it's full of completely false claims.Quote:
We can also agree that temporary often turns into permanent with immigration. Otherwise how did we all end up being citizens?
Have you no knowledge of the coal mining towns, where they literally worked people to an early death and didn't even pay them in real money. Only script that could be used at their stores. What about the early steel industry, how do you think Carnegie got so rich? By crushing the backs of workers with 12hr shifts, 6 or 7 days a week and only providing enough pay to keep them in poverty. Who do you think built the railroads? Underpaid immigrants. When haven't immigrants been the people in the lowest paying jobs?Quote:
Sadly it seems far more likely to be selfish and immoral based on desire for a servant underclass we hadn't seen since plantation slavery.
To claim it's worse today is just completely false. If you truly believe that then your either denying history or delusional. It's an ugly history but the rich abusing the most vulnerable is not new and certainly not worse than in the past.
As for this,
I haven't heard of any such trials and I got no idea the meaning of your false claim about Mussolini.Quote:
Perhaps the sedition and treason trials and sentences will chase more rats off that sinking ship before it's gone?
Didn't they drag the body of Mussolini behand a car on a tour of Italy after he was deposed and executed?
Don't you think the same thing could be said about the Republican party when the Democrats were the majority in congress(except being the oldest party). Both parties are constantly searching for what will get them the most votes and are more than willing to change their stance on issues.Quote:
Michael Malice makes the point that its short-sighted for republicans to think that the democratic party is down for the count. They are the oldest party in America for a reason, and you can pinpoint several instances where they have done 180 flips to keep/regain power in their nearly 200-year history.
The sedition ran deep. Pretending you don't know about these treasonous activities suggests you've had you heads in the sand.
https://youtu.be/pdm7nsfsVVk?si=XNjf-9jgj5_iBEXt
The "Russia, Russia, Russia" hoax has been shown to be just that with no uncertainty.
Random youtube videos aren't proof. If we are being honest this is just another attempt by a a known sex offender to try and distract from his relationship to another sex offender and paedophile.
https://www.fbi.gov/wanted/cyber/rus...-u-s-elections
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Senate...ntial_election
https://www.reuters.com/article/worl...idUSKCN25E2OY/
https://www.acslaw.org/projects/the-...ueller-report/
https://www.npr.org/2020/08/18/90361...-2016-election
Of course not but if that's the only way you can justify your beliefs, that's what you use. Dil found these "rats" guilty a long time ago.Quote:
Random youtube videos aren't proof.
Oh please. You aren't fooling anyone with your constant bullshit.
Random videos? As in a briefing by the Director of National Intelligence? What do you want? Aliens to come down and explain the facts of life to you?
Russiagate was always a hoax, and now the Administration has the receipts proving Obama was behind it.
Sticking your heads in the sand is not serving anyone. This is a golden age. Shed your chains, free your slaves, and re-join America. You'll enjoy it.
It looks like the Renaissance is even inspiring Brits. Who knows? Perhaps they'll finally pull their finger out as well!
British Patriots FIGHT BACK Outside Migrant Hotel In Canary Wharf
https://www.youtube.com/live/TgFmyZ1...w-K4IHJeRxAcjL
Trump isn't trying to distract Democrats, he's trying to distract his base...desperately. OBAMA...BIDEN....SQUIRREL!!!
Anybody who was paying attention during the 80s and 90s would know that Trump abused pretty much everybody, so it's no surprise if he was going after underage girls. The only age limit he stated was that he felt that 12 was too young. His wackier base always thought he was their champion going after the pedophile cabal, now they're realizing that he was part of it. Trump never expected Democrats to support him. He never expected a good portion of independents to support him. But he sure needs his base to support him, and this issue is beginning to open their eyes.
If the Republicans in the house doesn't fear his base, then they won't fear Trump. Polling is starting to show that. He's always had a lower limit because of his ardent base. He's starting to dip below that lower limit, which means that the base is less ardent.
And so they have sent out the new party line to folks like Dil, and here it is.
And it's working. It's like giving food to a starving person, they are just gobbling it up. They are sure trials and convictions are coming.Quote:
And so they have sent out the new party line to folks like Dil, and here it is.
But if you pay attention to the report it's about no evidence of Russian interference with the actual voting systems. The problem is, that was never the claim.
It'll be interesting to see how far they want to ride this horse.
https://www.factcheck.org/2025/07/ga...ng-coup-claim/ this appears to be yet another Trump appointee doing and saying whatever it takes to keep Trump's favour. There are no receipts, there is just a very deliberate attempt to misinterpret the actual findings.Quote:
Originally Posted by dilettante
So your idea of a Golden Age is a country run by a convicted sex offender and felon, one of the worst National Deficits in modern times (admittedly not as bad as when Trump was last in power...), people being "arrested" without due process and thrown into concentration camps, tax breaks for the billionaires while normal people get their support and medical aid cut. But at least you can now have cane sugar in your coke.
Ah, but the Medicare cuts were delayed until after the midterm elections, because...or course they were.
Yeah, I noticed that. Sneaky little buggers.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker
Sorry that I'm throwing back a bit in the thread but I've been away for a week so catching up.
I did want to answer this:-
[quote]what's stopping them going back to their native countries and applying for citizenship?[quote]
I think there are two broad answers.
If you're talking about TPS, that is, in theory at least, given to people for whom returning to their country of origin would be dangerous. It's not a migrant measure, it's a refugee one. If you look into the case of Kilmar Abrego Garcia, ICE returned him to a country where gangs had actively threatened to kill him (they were extorting his father's business). Sending him back there seems pretty barbaric. Particularly when you combine it with locking him up alongside those gang members. And, to pre-empt Dil's inevitable flailings, no there was no evidence that he was a member of MS13 or any other gang. The administration produced precisely one photo which had clearly been photoshopped:-
Attachment 195209
I mean... I'm surprised they didn't use a sharpie. Of course, If they hadn't ignored due process we might be able to examine evidence further - but they did remove that.
If you're talking about non TPS immigrants, then I think we have to consider the impact of the upheaval on the individual. You're got people being deported who came here as children and have lived their whole lives in the US. Yes, perhaps they could return to their country of origin and reapply but that means leaving their job, their school, their social and support network and, in many cases, returning to a country where they don't speak the language. The impact of that is massive. At that point I feel you'd be punishing the individual for the failures of a system which took a quarter of a century to process them.
On the Epstien thing - yeah, Trump's in the files. You'd have to be deep in the cult not to believe that an adjudicated sex offender who bragged about grabbing women by the vagina and invading miss teen pageant dressing rooms, was described by Epstein as his best friend, acknowledged that Epstein liked 'em young, wished Guillain Maxwell well and is now floating a pardon for her isn't in it up to his neck.
... but Hillary's emails!
My mistake, he had Withholding of Removal Status.Quote:
Kilmar Abrego Garcia, isn't a TPS case
I think TPS would still come under the second answer I gave though. If someone's been in the country long enough you're not really sending them "home" any more. There comes a point as which "home" is the USA. If these people were being processed and their cases resolved promptly then I think it would be less of a problem returning them to their country of origin (assuming it's now safe) but after 25 years it seems perverse to me. And given that ICE are now staking out citizenship hearings it's hard to argue that these people are trying to buck the system - they're trying to follow it. Trouble is the system is broken.