I don't need nobody to be doing anything. On the other hand you NEED some just explanation for all is happening lately. Hopefully 9 June we will get that answer. If not, meh, keep WOKEing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker
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I don't need nobody to be doing anything. On the other hand you NEED some just explanation for all is happening lately. Hopefully 9 June we will get that answer. If not, meh, keep WOKEing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker
No, I don't need an explanation. YOU need everything to have an explanation, I don't. I'm quite content with emergent behavior.
I think what Shaggy was referring to is basically the extreme end of Zionism. I'm going to try and be careful with my wording here because they tend to mean different things to different people. I'm not setting out to offend or condemn and if I do it's out of ignorance.Quote:
That reason surprises me. I always felt that the Christians sort of had a grudge against the Jews. Because of not believing Jesus is the son of God. Also, some blame the Jews for Jesus being crucified.
At the moderate end, Zionism is the belief that the Jews should be allowed to establish a homeland in Palestine as that's where the Jewish faith historically emerged. At the extreme end (and this is the bit they share with some extreme evangelicals, I think) there is a belief that the reason for the establishment of that homeland is that God's plan requires his chosen children to return to Israel before the end times can occur. It's necessary because God promised to save Israel in Romans and Israel, in this context, is taken to refer to both the state and the Jewish people. So the belief is that God cannot proceed with his plan if his chosen people aren't in Israel. Since some extreme evangelicals believe it is their duty to see God's plan enacted, they therefore must support a Jewish State in Palestine.
I've probably made a bunch of errors in that but that's the gist.
Personally I think a more compelling reason for the support is a hang over from the Cold War. The USSR tended to court (pretty successfully) the Muslim Nations while NATO tended to court Israel. Both spent the latter half of the 20th century warring with each other with Israel usually getting the best of it. I'm not sure which was the chicken and which was the egg but it led to some pretty entrenched diplomatic positions that persisted after the collapse of the Berlin Wall.
Interestingly, I just heard Kamala Harris on the news calling for an "immediate ceasefire" so it sounds like the Biden Administration has finally run out of patience with Netanyahu (though probably not with Israel) and might start applying some real pressure. I hope so because I think what's happening at present is awful. The shooting at the food convoy over the weekend was a new low.
Yeah, that's pretty much my (fuzzy) understanding of it. I was thinking that the USSR got along well with some Arab nations, but I realized that that wasn't adequate, as the US was pretty close with Saudi Arabia throughout, then got pretty friendly with Jordan and Egypt at various times. I don't think it fully explains the support for Israel, which has lots of other factors, such as votes in the US, WW II, and so forth. Basically, lots of little things.
I would guess that all sides now agree that Netanyahu is too much of a net yahu to be tolerated much longer.
So Arab nations adore you and the reason is WWII ?
zionism is very much like feminism. the official definition is vastly different than what it actually is, which is a satanic version of the old testament, called the talmud.
the Talmud is a discipline of rules that allows the higher ups in the cult set whatever rules and actions they see fit.
Islam is also problematic. imagine 25 minutes and 5 times a day listening to the Imam scream via a megaphone for example.
the solution is very simple. pass a law to ban circumcisions. without that satanic
ritual, the religions fall apart as these are the prerequisite for conversion.
naturally the ban should apply even if the citizens perform them abroad.
other wise you get infinite killings to determine whose imaginary friend is bigger.
That's how I used to pass my days listening to metal.Quote:
Originally Posted by NTShpikho
I wonder sometimes if it's not because of the US/UK involvement in establishing Israel and protecting it, especially during the first 30yrs, that makes us blind to bad things Israel has done. Because some how if Israel does something wrong that would mean we were wrong.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker
Maybe that's just one of the little things SH refers to.
OK.
So, check it. Arab nations adore you, yes and Israel is protected due to WWII and you feel, you feel, you ,oh brother, feel obliged, to protect Israel because you where involved to it in the first 30 years.
And still, may I take your coat sir, hasn't posted.
This forum is amazing!
Unfortunately I have so much work coming up that I don't think I will be posting a lot, maybe fast posting.
P.S. If is sounded, malevolent it's not my intention but I'm reading amazing stuff here.
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Unfortunately I have so much work coming up that I don't think I will be posting a lot, maybe fast posting.
Promises, promises..:rolleyes:
Awesome reply, there.Quote:
Originally Posted by sapator
No, no Arab nation adores us, but some are close to us...and vilify us, which is fine. WW II is unrelated.Quote:
Originally Posted by sapator
I suppose you are pushing the adoration, till the oil runs dry.
Then will be only ruins.
If we ever extract oil here I'm expecting a lot of adoration from US. :p
Yeah, we're funny that way. We seem willing to embrace anybody, so long as they have what we want.Quote:
Originally Posted by sapator
That's a common trait through out the world. Not unique to the US. Not unique to governments either, it's a common human trait.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker
We are very kind and social animals, right up until we are not...Quote:
Originally Posted by wes4dbt
Now the US is going to build a pier to provide aide to Gaza. Seems like the hard way of doing it.
They'll be shipping stuff from other countries. It will be a pier-to-pier network.
So it would a pier, but ships can carry a LOT of goods relative to trucks, and the inspection process could be streamlined. If that happens, they could possibly bring all the goods needed through that one port, though it might succumb to pier pressure.Quote:
Originally Posted by wes4dbt
I understand the concept, just not the necessity.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker
I just have to disagree with that...Quote:
Originally Posted by wes4dbt
"There is a risk of famine in the projection period through May 2024 if the current situation persists or worsens," it said. The United Nations said in February that more than a quarter of Gaza's 2.3 million people were "estimated to be facing catastrophic levels of deprivation and starvation."
The UN reports that the decline in the population's nutrition status is at a globally unprecedented rate; children in Gaza are being starved at the fastest rate that the world has ever seen. Experts found that one in six children under two years old in northern Gaza are now acutely malnourished.
But there are groups that think they deserve it :(
Is it the need for aid you're questioning or the method of delivery. I'd disagree with you either way but for different reasons.Quote:
I understand the concept, just not the necessity.
I think the people of Gaza definitely need aid right now and they've not been getting it. Pretty much every international aid organisation agrees on that. I think you can debate whether the responsibility for delivering it lies with the US but 1. I think it really rests with everyone. It's not a Nationality thing, it's a humanity thing. And 2. I don't think the US (or the UK, for that matter) has been leading on this. In fact we've been lagging behind the rest of the world. That said the US does have the logistic capability as well as the political clout with Israel to facilitate getting a project like this done.
As for whether this is a sensible way to go about it, no, it isn't, not really. The sensible way to go about it would be trucks through Israel but Israel has been blocking and choking that off since the word go. There have been some air drops recently but that's a ridiculously expensive and inefficient mechanism. So this seems like the last option available. It's not a good option but I can't think of a better one.
I was mostly about making puns, but the point Funky made is largely correct. Gaza can't feed itself. It never could, as it was largely a city. Cities in the US are estimated to have roughly a week of food supplies on hand, so without constant supply, people would start starving within a week. Gaza may be somewhat better off, considering they've faced greater food insecurity, and might have built up larger reserves. On the other hand, they've been bombed pretty steadily, so those reserves may be rubble, by now.
The main artery for supplies into Gaza was through one entryway in Israel, which Israel has cut off. That left a minor access point through Egypt, which was never capable of handling the necessary throughput even in the best of times. These are not the best of times. Trucks are undergoing extensive inspections and delays, so an inadequate port of entry is now hopeless. Israel could fix this, but shows no inclination to do so. Even if they re-opened their larger facility, they'd still slow walk the inspection of trucks, and food supplies will be inadequate.
Air was never realistic. It would take a few planes to realistically be able to air drop what a single truck can carry. Meanwhile, a single cargo ship can carry what several trucks could carry. At this point, assuming a pier can be built pretty quickly (we used to be able to, but that skill might have atrophied), delivery from a ship is probably the only way to avoid mass starvation.
You misunderstand. I'm all for Gaza getting aid.Quote:
Originally Posted by TysonLPrice
What the US should be doing is condemning Israel totally for the murdering of civilians. Stop waffling and stop vetoing UN measures trying to hold Israel accountable and stop providing military aid. Israel can't stand for long against everyone.Quote:
As for whether this is a sensible way to go about it, no, it isn't, not really. The sensible way to go about it would be trucks through Israel but Israel has been blocking and choking that off since the word go. There have been some air drops recently but that's a ridiculously expensive and inefficient mechanism. So this seems like the last option available. It's not a good option but I can't think of a better one.
I'd say the Berlin air drop proves it can be done and there are much larger more powerful planes that can carry as much as a truck. But that's not what I'm suggesting. This madness needs to stop and there are ways of doing that.Quote:
Air was never realistic. It would take a few planes to realistically be able to air drop what a single truck can carry
I have to admit that the military buff in me is curious of what this temporary port would look like and how long it would take. If it's something that can be accomplished in a few days then perhaps it's a good idea. But it just seems like a way to avoid doing the right thing.
Berlin had an airfield, and the planes were probably still there from the war. Maybe that actually makes it harder? The only airdrops I have seen have been relatively small packages. Can you drop whole pallets from a plane with any accuracy, and have them parachute without too much damage? If so, then not needing to land might make it easier than the Berlin airlift. Don't know, though.
I'm not sure of the max size they're capable of safely dropping. Have seen some large ones being dropped. I'd say just a little smaller than a shipping container. The military also have hover craft that could ferry goods from ships. They can carry an Abrams Tank, that's 60tons. There are heavy lift helicopters. There are ways, if we have the commitment. I don't mean just us, it not just our responsibility. But all of this isn't my point. My point is lets open up the roads that are already there, lets stop this massacre.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker
Yeah.
Here is an example:
Since no one is willing to do anything more than say "shame on you" to Israel, I guess any way we can increase aid is a good thing. The fact this will take @ 60days indicates the US has no plans to change it's stance any time soon.
I see they're back to air drops. Unless you got a way to retrieve the rigging and chutes it would probably be hard to sustain.Quote:
Originally Posted by wes4dbt
Maybe Israel could give us the chutes back as payment for the bombs we give them. The circle of life.
Now there I'm with you 100%. The only nuance I'd add is that I'd like to hear some loud voices saying the same to Hamas. I feel like those Israel's actions have caused those voices to recede and we shouldn't allow them to. Hamas are not the Palestinian people and, just as the Palestinian people do not deserve to be punished for the actions of Hamas, we should not forget what Hamas did because we're now watching the Palestinian people suffer for it.Quote:
What the US should be doing is condemning Israel totally for the murdering of civilians.
That said, I agree with with gist. We need to do much, much more to hold the Israeli government accountable for it's recent actions.
I'm nervous about this but don't have anything better to offer. I'm nervous of it because I'm aware of Israel's geopolitical position. They're surrounded by Muslim nations who have, historically, been extremely hostile. Without Western military aid Israel wouldn't exist now and probably wouldn't last 5 years if we cut it off. What we're seeing in Gaza would probably be repeated except against the Israeli people and across the whole of Israel. That said, providing military aid to one regime while providing humanitarian aid to the people that military aid is being turned against is a starkly hypocritical position to be occupying. I guess I'm looking for a way to make the Israeli government climb down without throwing the Israeli people under the bus at the same time. Damned if I can think of one but that should at least be the goal.Quote:
stop providing military aid
Sadly, the air drop idea aged like milk. I won't pretend my criticism of it considered anything like that happening but, God, it's like this situation just wants to keep kicking the Palestinians in new and horrible ways.
I wasn't suggesting to permanently stop military aid. But we shouldn't be supplying them weapons for use in Gaza. Lets just turn the tap off for a while and when they realize the danger that puts them in, perhaps it would motivate them to rethink their current course of action. I also think Israel needs to know that support from it's friends isn't absolute and can be terminated. For some reason we've been turning a blind eye to what they they've been doing in the region for the last 30yrs.
This isn't the first time ....
Palestinian society was decimated during the Nakba, 531 Palestinian villages were destroyed, and more than 70 massacres were carried out against innocent civilians, killing more than 15 thousand Palestinians between 1947 and 1949.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nakba
The current violence didn't spark out of a vacuum. At this point I think Israel, and they are doing it, needs to "remove" Palestinians from "their" land. They learned that from the Germans, cleaning out the Polish "Ghetto". I guess it is just matter of time until the US backs that up.
Not much subtle about Israel. In the middle of an invasion of Gaza Israel grabs more land in the West Bank. https://currently.att.yahoo.com/news...121840804.html
I wouldn't say "Israel". There's certainly a group within Israel.
I don't understand how that country hangs together. The group that has a birth rate greater than the replacement rate is the ultraorthodox subset. They receive generous welfare, are generally uneducated, barely work (partially since they are generally uneducated), and are exempt from military service. That means that the rest of the country is essentially subsidizing what amounts to a parasitic group that is steadily growing. I'd be kind of pissed about that.
I guess one big difference between what the Germans did to the Jews in cleaning out Warsaw is the Palestinians aren't fighting back as they get wiped out. But...they "voted" for Hamas and must die for it. Even though that was like seventeen years ago since the last election. Most of the people Israel is killing weren't even born then, let alone voted for them. But that is what they use as an excuse for for killing 30,000 plus women and children, they voted for Hamas. In that light, starve the rest of them...
Another tragedy in a long line of tragedies. https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/l...tes-rcna145971
Not only have more innocents been killed, now the food from Cypress wont be coming.
Yet the US is still talking out of both sides of its mouth. "Stop the fighting in Gaza, here's some more bombs."
I think Israel has taken the position there will be no more Palestinians allowed. They will be killed or assimilated. The position, I think, is there will never be a two-state solution.
What is food from "Cypress" ? Did I miss something?
There was a boat pulling a barge with 240 ton of food heading to Gaza.Quote:
Originally Posted by sapator