What i'm getting at is possibly a rather stupid point but hey why not!
What if it aint you making those decisions perhaps it's something else? Like destiny or guardian angels or what if where like lab mice??
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What i'm getting at is possibly a rather stupid point but hey why not!
What if it aint you making those decisions perhaps it's something else? Like destiny or guardian angels or what if where like lab mice??
Well, my views are based on the bible, and I'm sure you know the bible doesn't support that, so I'll let the bible go for a moment..
You are aware of your making the decisions, aren't you? If you're willing to throw out the concept of you yourself making your decisions, your idea of destiny or guardian angels might hold water (it'd have to be looked into further). As for the lab mice, it sounds about as far-fetched as thinking we're human batteries like in The Martix. I suppose it's possible, but very unlikely.
You really are missing the point I am trying to make. If the future was there to be looked at then it must be predetermined (whether he actually looked at it or not is immaterial).Quote:
When he created everyone and everything, he did it without looking into the future to see what would happen. This means he didn't know Satan would go bad (Satan wasn't even his name back then). He didn't bother to look. Instead, he decided to trust his creations. We all have free will and we do as we choose. Only we determine our fate.
And don't tell us God didn't look into the future of mankind. What are all the prophesies about then if he didn't? Lucky guesses?
As for free-will, it is debateable whether it actually exists (or is just an illusion) irrespective of you take on the bible.
For example, there is evidence that our sub-consiosness makes descisions up to 9 seconds before it registers in our consious mind. What we think are rational, well reasoned, descisions are just final manifestations of our subconsious workings.
"so" doesn't mean much to me. Either it means all or nothing. If we have free will, then the conceptualness of it would be that it is predictable, not because it's not what we think it is, but because to God nothing is impossible. I don't think God intended to be Stupid and take risks just for the kick of it, because if that's so impossible why can't he get that without risking anything at all? The rational answer would be that God created a deterministic universe, and determinism doesn't undermine free will if you derive determinism from it.Quote:
God is not so controlling. If he was, would we really have free will?
Does that answer everyone's questions on the subject?
I don't think I quite understand what you are saying here. How can a deterministic universe not undermine the concept of free-will? :confused:Quote:
Kedaman,
The rational answer would be that God created a deterministic universe, and determinism doesn't undermine free will if you derive determinism from it.
You wonder if it's not a contradiction? Determinism means something is predictable, and if the results of free will is predictable, that is if God can predict the results, it's deterministic. If you're omniscient, that shouldn't be a problem.
If our descisions are predictable then how can we have free-will?
I'm not saying that predicting should be a problem for a god that is omniscient but if you accept the fact that God is omniscient then you must also accept the fact that we don't have free-will.
Free will is irrelevant. It's whether we think we're in control or not.
If I decide to do something, it may not be my decision, but I get the feeling of "choosing".
Yes, that roughly reflects my personnal opinion.Quote:
Free will is irrelevant. It's whether we think we're in control or not.
But that's not quite good enough is it? If it's not really your decision then it could be argued that you couldn't have done anything else, even if you wanted to.Quote:
If I decide to do something, it may not be my decision, but I get the feeling of "choosing".
But since we don't know what could happen from any other decisions we make that one. I don't think that every decision may be decided, but a general course is. For example, you want to get to London. You can take many different roads, but you still get to London.
Assuming you don't get mugged!Quote:
Originally posted by parksie
You can take many different roads, but you still get to London.
I can't help but feel that this is an un-arguable point because either:-
a) We have "free will", but we can never prove that it exists because we will always be suspicious that we just think we have free will, or
b) We don't have "free will" and are actually controlled by an external influence (god, aliens, mice etc) and therefore they are running both sides of this argument.... assuming they don't want us to find out the "truth".
Personally I think we do have free-will, but then, maybe someone is making me think that?
SD
I'm making you think that :)
There were 2 murders in a week at the end of my sister's road while she was in London (she's back in student residences next year).
Did she get away with it then?Quote:
Originally posted by parksie
There were 2 murders in a week at the end of my sister's road while she was in London (she's back in student residences next year).
SD
Yeah, I think so. She nicked some of the police tape on her way past as well :)
They're such rebels...they stole a "Vote McFlurry" poster off the wall in the underground. Anyone who's been there will know just how big those advert posters are :D
Well, how do you know we're going to London? :DQuote:
I don't think that every decision may be decided, but a general course is. For example, you want to get to London. You can take many different roads, but you still get to London.
So you are proposing that there are points of innevitable convergence on the time stream but the exact maner with which these points are travelled between can vary freely?
If this were the case, it would be interesting to know if these "points of convergence" were directed by a superior being. Then if so, is the superior being acting out of it's own free will or being drawn towards it's own set of timestream convergences.
If these time stream convergences weren't created by an external entity, why do they exist attall?
Ah...So many questions, so little time. :rolleyes:
That's exactly what I'm saying :)
It's like lossless decompression - the individual parts of the image can vary in unknown ways (depending on the algorithm) but it's still the same picture in the end.
I haven't been following this too closely Mike but are you saying that there are no critical decision point where a tiny change or decision changes the future course of events significantly?Quote:
Originally posted by parksie
That's exactly what I'm saying :)
It's like lossless decompression - the individual parts of the image can vary in unknown ways (depending on the algorithm) but it's still the same picture in the end.
God contradicting it's universe doesn't seem logical to you. To me it makes perfect sense. If God was in his objective reality, he could just simply create (all) the universe(s) for us, in a subreality in which contradictions may occur between it and the objective one. Free will would to us be fact in our subreality, until we conclude it doesn't exist and therefore deny it.Quote:
If our descisions are predictable then how can we have free-will?
I'm not saying that predicting should be a problem for a god that is omniscient but if you accept the fact that God is omniscient then you must also accept the fact that we don't have free-will.
I think that in a finite reality, there is not room for but one mind.
Yep :)Quote:
Originally posted by Kzin
I haven't been following this too closely Mike but are you saying that there are no critical decision point where a tiny change or decision changes the future course of events significantly?
I actually kinda like the whole "not in control" thing - it means I don't have to worry about screwing it up because I know that me screwing it up was someone else's decision :p
Your decisions might be prebuffered into some sort of form you fill in before you enter your universe. Then you have to take all the responsibilities afterwards.Quote:
Originally posted by parksie
Yep :)
I actually kinda like the whole "not in control" thing - it means I don't have to worry about screwing it up because I know that me screwing it up was someone else's decision :p
Keda: My thoughts exactly. :)
Off the subject Keda and others you refer to god as HE OR HIS??
Except once keda said IT.
Why?
Simon: " If our descisions are predictable then how can we have free-will? "
We think we have free will but perhaps thats someone else telling us that yeah you have free will to keep us from finding the truth:eek:
The truth is out there :rolleyes:
5th page...not too bad :) Was wondering if anyone would give this (not for long, though).Quote:
The truth is out there
No he didn't. I don't really understand it to be honest.Quote:
Did Kedaman answer this for you?
It still implies that it is predetermined. If God maid the original decisions then all subsequant descisions are just a consequance of those original ones.Quote:
You make decisions based on what happens around you. Things happen around you based on other decisions (by you and other people) and the whole trail can be predicted that way. I'm not sure if I support that or not, but it is a way.
Wow, this thread is still kinda serious, I wasn't expecting that :) I guess this is the kind of thing I have an opinion on so I'll enter the debate.
On the concept of God seeing the future, I would just like to say that I don't see it to be a problem whether we have free will or not, whether the universe is fundamentally random or deterministic. The future exists even if it's random. What will happen will happen, the idea that it is a consequence of a set of random events doesn't matter.
Assume for a moment that the universe is fundamentally probabilistic. Now consider the past. What happened in the past is set in stone, there is no question as to whether it happened or not. If someone in the past was to consider the future, and you were there with them, would you say that there was no set future?
Personally, I don't have any problem with the idea of God being able to know the future and yet there still being free will (I also don't think it matters but that's not the point), because God (if He exists) is supposedly omnipotent, omnipresent, omni-everything, and could therefore see the future by looking back from a point after the part of the future He is considering has occurred.
So even though it might be fundamentally completely probabilistic, I have no problem with the idea that a particular set of events will occur.
beacon
I don't know when I said that, but I wouldn't hesitate to call it she, they, we or who if that would seem rational to someone else.Quote:
Except once keda said IT.
Why?
I don't think God would need to be time-bound, especially if he created time, so if he intended to look, then he alredy did that, if he intended to care about the results, he would know everything he need to. Note that the time terms i used has to be replaced with something that defines what is happening but not in form of a time based event.Quote:
Tygur
In the beginning, he didn't look at all. Later he did, hence all the prophesies. When he does look, he doesn't look at everything all together. He just looks at bits and pieces of the future.
Harry
How do you define "Random" supposing you are trying to explain this to a omniscient God?
Harry
This is a big assumption that is only valid if the time stream is predetermined. If time is not on a fixed course then, to put it simply, the future doesn't exist! So saying: "what will happen will happen" is not valid in a non-deterministic universe.Quote:
The future exists even if it's random. What will happen will happen, the idea that it is a consequence of a set of random events doesn't matter.
If the universe is probabilistic then surely it must therefore be impossible to travel back in time. It is only the thoery of space-time (in which the universe is deterministic) that allows for (theoretically at least) time travel. Besides, going back into the past would change the future right? Therefore the future would not be set. Hence the paradox of time travel.Quote:
Assume for a moment that the universe is fundamentally probabilistic. Now consider the past. What happened in the past is set in stone, there is no question as to whether it happened or not. If someone in the past was to consider the future, and you were there with them, would you say that there was no set future?
Well, how can it not matter? If God knows the future then either that prevents us from acting in any other way (in order to prevent it) or it means that we can prevent it and God's predictions of the future would be nothing more than possibilities (rather than certainties).Quote:
Personally, I don't have any problem with the idea of God being able to know the future and yet there still being free will (I also don't think it matters but that's not the point), because God (if He exists) is supposedly omnipotent, omnipresent, omni-everything, and could therefore see the future by looking back from a point after the part of the future He is considering has occurred.
If it can be shown that the future is pre-determined (unchangeable) then we cannot do anything other than that which contributes towards it's fulfillment. Does this not then preclude free-will? If so, does it matter?
From the christian perspective, this does matter. If we don't have free-will, can we really be held to account for our actions (on judgement day)? If everything we've ever done were just innevitable consequences of prior actions then how can we be blamed for anything? The responsibility for everything that has ever happens must go back to the instigator (if there is one) which is God.
This is no different to what you've just said in previous posts. You can say it again but I'm not going to agree the second time around either.
I said:and I stand by that, whether we live in a determinate or probabilistic universe.Quote:
what will happen will happen
I really, really don't know where you're going with the time travel thing. I'm not trying to speculate on the viability of time travel, it was purely a hypothetical situation. Just fantasy. I am not talking about time travel here, I'd just like to get that straight so that we don't get lost talking about something irrelevant.
Are you disputing that the past is now fixed?
I am by no means trying to say that the future is already determined by the laws of physics in a probabilistic universe, but what I am saying is that although it will be the result of a random process and not predictable, whatever happens, it will happen.
This is not an easy concept for me to translate into text, and the past/future analogy is about as close as I can get. The future is fixed in much the same way as the past is fixed. It's not determined yet, but it is nevertheless going to happen.
It's like if I rolled a dice, I might get a 5. I might not have got a 5, but I did. When I rolled the dice, I didn't know I was going to get a 5, nor could I have, but nevertheless I was going to get a 5. It's just what happened, as a result of a set of fundamentally probabilistic events.
Of course, most of this post assumes that the universe is governed by probabilistic principles, which may or may not be the case. This debate is a bit pointless for a deterministic universe though so that's ok.
Harry,
Firstly, this is a meaningless statement that conveys no information attall and is useful as saying "blue is blue" or "if I'm in, I'm in".Quote:
I said:
quote:
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what will happen will happen
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and I stand by that, whether we live in a determinate or probabilistic universe.
I wasn't querying that statement however. I was critising : "The future exists even if it's random." How can it "exist" if it's predermined? That implies that it is there to be looked at or visited. No it isn't: it's undefined.
OK, when something happens we can look back on it as fixed but it wasn't fixed until it happened.
You seemed to be using a time travel example to illustrate that the future must be set. I did not intend to get into a debate about time travel, only to illustrate that your time travel example only applies in a deterministic universe.Quote:
I really, really don't know where you're going with the time travel thing. I'm not trying to speculate on the viability of time travel, it was purely a hypothetical situation. Just fantasy. I am not talking about time travel here, I'd just like to get that straight so that we don't get lost talking about something irrelevant.
What's it? The past is fixed in a awy that the future isn't. The past is fixed in terms of it's actual content. How is the future fixed? The future is fixed because the future will happen? And that makes sense to you?Quote:
The future is fixed in much the same way as the past is fixed. It's not determined yet, but it is nevertheless going to happen.
I see what you're getting at here but I still think this only applies in a deterministic universe. For example, consider quantum mechanics for a moment. Now an electron's "spin" is considered undefined until it is measured. If it is measured, it's spin becomes defined. But, it is invalid to deduce that it's spin before measurement was defined because it wasn't. It's also invalid to say that it would have always yielded that same result.Quote:
It's like if I rolled a dice, I might get a 5. I might not have got a 5, but I did. When I rolled the dice, I didn't know I was going to get a 5, nor could I have, but nevertheless I was going to get a 5. It's just what happened, as a result of a set of fundamentally probabilistic events.
I appologise if I am repeating myself but it seemed to me that nobody understood the point I am making so I was trying to explain it a little better.
1. Time travel is not possible because Einstein said that it is not possible to either create or destroy matter.
Thus, if you try to go back in time you are both destroying yourself from the present and creating all your atoms at some point in the past. Assuming Herr Einstein was right, of course.
2. Failing that why doesn't someone tempt someone from the future to prove that it is possible...
I think a big country with sh*tloads of money (Like the USA) should do a large announcement that would make a large impression in the history books... (perhaps engrave this message on the surface of the Moon with a laser...) "The USA hereby declares a prize of $10,000,000,000 to the first person that proves time travel is possible by landing their time machine in the middle of Time Square. (nice irony huh!) At the winners preference, the equivalent in real estate ground space could be awarded.
That should take care of future exchange rates and should be worthwhile to anyone in the next 1000 years or so!
What do you guys think?
kedaman
I'm sure he doesn't need to be time-bound, but I do think he is anyway, even if only by choice.Quote:
I don't think God would need to be time-bound, especially if he created time, so if he intended to look, then he alredy did that, if he intended to care about the results, he would know everything he need to. Note that the time terms i used has to be replaced with something that defines what is happening but not in form of a time based event.
simonm
I'm not sure whether I support a deterministic world or not, but God can see the future either way. A deterministic world would just offer an easier explanation.
In a deterministic world, nothing is really predetermined. Things are getting determined as time passes. People can still have free will, but their decisions would just be predictable. It's obvious how God would see the future here.
In a probabilistic world, things are certainly not predetermined. But there are two ways God could still possibly see the future. The first possibility is time travel. Since he made time, traveling to the future and coming back should be no problem for him. The other possibility is that maybe he sees the future as the enormous amount of possibilities that it is. Anything held in common with each possibility is definitely going to happen. Anything that is common with most possibilities might happen and he could manipulate events so it definitely would happen.
Tygur
That is a blatant contradiction. The very meaning of "deterministic" is that it's predetermined.Quote:
In a deterministic world, nothing is really predetermined.
You've just given a description of a probabilistic universe.Quote:
Things are getting determined as time passes.
It's not easy to see attall. How can our decisions be predictable if we have free will? The very point of free will is that it is our decisions to make and if they're already determined, they were not ours.Quote:
People can still have free will, but their decisions would just be predictable. It's obvious how God would see the future here.
I think the nature of a probabilistic universe is such that it forbids time travel due to the fact that the future is un-defined and cannot be travelled to.Quote:
In a probabilistic world, things are certainly not predetermined. But there are two ways God could still possibly see the future. The first possibility is time travel. Since he made time, traveling to the future and coming back should be no problem for him.
This makes more sense to me. The only question on whether this would work is dependant upon whether there are an infinite number of possibilities to choose from. if there were, everything would be possible. Therefore time would remain unpredictable.Quote:
The other possibility is that maybe he sees the future as the enormous amount of possibilities that it is. Anything held in common with each possibility is definitely going to happen. Anything that is common with most possibilities might happen and he could manipulate events so it definitely would happen.
I think we're getting caught up with God here. I think that everything is predetermined (but not by god). Every particle/component in the universe has a set of proerties (movement, electrical charge etc.), and they are all in a position to colide or interact in someway. At te very highest level, Galaxies are moving towards/away from galaxies etc, at a smaller level planets are orbiting suns, and asteroids are on colision courses. Those Asteroids might not colide for another billion years, but the fact is that given enough data and enough computing power you could predict that the asteroid will hit. Now if you take this down to a human level, we all have bodies and brains. The elctrical pulses around my brain are going to take a certain course. I think I'm choosing, but thats the way my brain was going to work.
I put forward the question: What is there in the universe that is truely random?. A coin flip? Given all of the factors you could predict the outcome 100%. What about random movements in the atmosphere? Again, cause and effect, if you could map every particle you would know how the atmosphere was going to react. Random movements in my hand as I flip the coin? If you could map the electrical pulses in my brain and the position/setup of my neurons and all my external stimulus and my bodies particles, then you could predict how my hand is going to move.
So, Is there anything really random in the Universe, or is every predetermined, but in such a complex manner that we will never be able to calculate it?
SD
simonm
Okay, I think there's a misunderstanding. I'm speaking from the perspective of being outside the universe looking in and observing it, and maybe making some changes:
If something is predetermined, it was decided on long ago. I was saying that things are happening as a result of past things happening in a deterministic world. There was no deciding done at the beginning. The deciding point came up long after the beginning, while things are running their course. The reason why I'm looking at it this way is because, as an outside observer, you can disrupt events a little at certain critical times and change everything. The past would still be set in stone, but as a result of your changing things, the flow of things would disrupted and the future would be changed, regardless of what was "predetermined" at the beginning.Quote:
That is a blatant contradiction. The very meaning of "deterministic" is that it's predetermined.
You've just given a description of a probabilistic universe.
Your decisions are based on what you know. If this is a deterministic universe, you would always make the same decisions if the circumstances were the same. But it would still be your own decision.Quote:
It's not easy to see attall. How can our decisions be predictable if we have free will? The very point of free will is that it is our decisions to make and if they're already determined, they were not ours.
I see what you mean. Okay, time travel would be a little hard to explain.Quote:
I think the nature of a probabilistic universe is such that it forbids time travel due to the fact that the future is un-defined and cannot be travelled to.
I'm really not sure if this is a deterministic universe or a probabilistic one. How could anyone prove it either way?
So if you die because - say a bus goes out of control and runs you over - don't feel too bad - it was inevitable - if you'd been five minutes later the next one would have done the same anyway :confused:Quote:
Originally posted by parksie
Yep :)
I actually kinda like the whole "not in control" thing - it means I don't have to worry about screwing it up because I know that me screwing it up was someone else's decision :p
Not neccesarily kzin!
Because it's your turn to die and you were meant to get on that bus!
The one behind it wouldnt crash because that would have ppl on it that arent ready for death. Therefore you had but no choice to get on that bus anyway!
Simon:
"How can it "exist" if it's predermined"
So if i predetermine that in 5 mins i'm gonna pick up a pen. Then it doesnt exist. Sure it does it's still there in the future i just knew what i was going to do.
Where as i didnt know that a man was gonna walk past!
Surf Demon
I think you are misunderstanding the concept of a "truly random" universe. The point is with a probabilistic universe is that even when you know all the factors precisely before hand, the outcome is still completely unknown. Given all the factors, you could only predict the outcome 100% in a deterministic universe.Quote:
I put forward the question: What is there in the universe that is truely random?. A coin flip? Given all of the factors you could predict the outcome 100%. What about random movements in the atmosphere? Again, cause and effect, if you could map every particle you would know how the atmosphere was going to react.
I think you are confusing chaos with randomness. The weather patterns in the atmosphere are not random. They are chaotic. The difference between random and chaotic is between being impossible to predict and extremely difficult to predict.
Take HarryW's example of rolling the dice:
The rolling of dice is a chaotic activity. It is just extremely difficult to know all the determining factors but if you measured everything with enough precision, you could predict it's outcome. i.e. If you rolled back time like a video tape and played it forward again, you would always get a 5.Quote:
It's like if I rolled a dice, I might get a 5. I might not have got a 5, but I did. When I rolled the dice, I didn't know I was going to get a 5, nor could I have, but nevertheless I was going to get a 5. It's just what happened, as a result of a set of fundamentally probabilistic events.
Now, if the universe was probabilistic and therefore, truly random, rolling back time and replaying it would yield a different dice throw each time.
Tygur
The whole point of a deterministic universe is that every action is a reaction to what went before. Everything that heppened is a consequance of what went before. Innevitably, you could then trace this back to the beginning of time (if there is one).Quote:
If something is predetermined, it was decided on long ago. I was saying that things are happening as a result of past things happening in a deterministic world. There was no deciding done at the beginning.
What you are proposing here is that the universe started out probabilistic and then one day became deterministic?
What outside observer? If God created the universe and everything in it, the only thing that could be "outside" is God himself. Therefore, in a deterministic universe, the only person who could disrupt the course of events is God.Quote:
The reason why I'm looking at it this way is because, as an outside observer, you can disrupt events a little at certain critical times and change everything.
Good question! ;) I don't know. I think that if someone managed to travel back in time, that would prove that there was a deterministic universe. I don't think it is possible to prove a probabilistic universe.Quote:
I'm really not sure if this is a deterministic universe or a probabilistic one. How could anyone prove it either way?
I would consider the rolling of a dice such a complex series of interactions that it would be affected by quantum processes to a significant enough degree to possibly change the outcome of the dice roll. I wouldn't say it was just chaotic, unless there is no randomness involved of course.
Anyway on the subject of the future thing, I think we'll just have to agree to disagree Simon. We just see the same thing from different angles. From the ways you have responded I can tell that you aren't receiving the concept in the same way as I'm trying to transmit it, and I don't think I can do any better so I'm going to stop trying.
I think you overestimate the importance of free will. Even in a probabilistic universe I don't really see how you can consider any kind of decision to be 'your own'. The concept of ownership of a complex chain of events is a little strange to me. In effect, you are saying that so long as the subatomic processes that occur are based on probabilistic laws rather than deterministic laws (meaning there are multiple possible outcomes) then that's okay because that means you had some control over the decision.
This is, quite honestly, a fallacy. Nobody makes 'their own' decisions in this sense of the phrase, it's just a result of some complex system. You could simplify it down to something like this:
There is a choice of going left or right, and have to (note have to, not decide to) flip a coin to see which way you go. Assume for the sake of this that there are only 2 possible outcomes and the process is completely random. The coin comes up heads, and you go right.
Was that your decision?
If not, why not? Not complex enough? Okay so maybe there are a trillion or a trillion trillion or more random events in the making of the 'left or right?' decision. So flip the coin a trillion trillion times and if heads comes up more often, then go right, otherwise go left. You do that and end up going right. Now is that your decision?
If not, explain to me the difference, in a probabilistic universe, between a completely 'brainless' decision such as that described and what you might call a decision made as a result of 'free will'.
So you're.... disagreeing to disagree? You're a hard man to please ;)Quote:
Perhaps. Although I could go on, I get the impression that it would soon become a one sided affair
I really don't think that's conceivable. What you are suggesting is that the brain can control random processes. This is just not the case, the very opposite would be true, the random processes would control the brain.Quote:
In a probabilistic universe, there may be multiple outcomes for any given constellation of circumstances. If the outcome of these situations is random under normal circumstances, it is conceivable that a consious being may be able to select an outcome. When our brain is presented with a situation and there are multiple ways in which we could respond, free-will comes into play
Unless you consider the human brain to operate outside of the laws of physics (there's that 'soul' thing again), free will is a myth.
Exactly! If God created the universe, and if it is a deterministic universe, things aren't necessarily "predetermined" from the beginning. If God intervenes from the outside at certain points, you can no longer trace all the way back to the beginning. This means that what happens at the beginning doesn't always completely determine what would happen in the future.Quote:
Originally posted by simonm
The whole point of a deterministic universe is that every action is a reaction to what went before. Everything that heppened is a consequance of what went before. Innevitably, you could then trace this back to the beginning of time (if there is one).
What you are proposing here is that the universe started out probabilistic and then one day became deterministic?
What outside observer? If God created the universe and everything in it, the only thing that could be "outside" is God himself. Therefore, in a deterministic universe, the only person who could disrupt the course of events is God.
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If there is no God or any other outside force, then you can trace all the way back to the beginning, but this would be a very indirect relationship.
Harry
I see what you're saying but as far as I'm concerned, the laws of physics haven't yet managed to explain consiousness. I don't think it's inconceivable to suggest that consiousness might have some sort of special property that enables it to move freely between streams of parallel possibilities.Quote:
I really don't think that's conceivable. What you are suggesting is that the brain can control random processes. This is just not the case, the very opposite would be true, the random processes would control the brain.
Unless you consider the human brain to operate outside of the laws of physics (there's that 'soul' thing again), free will is a myth.
I'm not saying that I necessarilly believe it either but it holds a slim life line for those who wish to believe in freewill.
Tygur
Well, you seem very pleased with this explanation but it does preclude the possibility of anyone having free-will besides God. And it still means that God is responsible for everything bad that has happened as well.Quote:
Exactly! If God created the universe, and if it is a deterministic universe, things aren't necessarily "predetermined" from the beginning. If God intervenes from the outside at certain points, you can no longer trace all the way back to the beginning. This means that what happens at the beginning doesn't always completely determine what would happen in the future.