Question about abortion.

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Originally Posted by Deathend

Dont believe in a god, also right and wrong have no meaning its just someone's opinion or point of view so if you were to argue it would never end. The winner is always the person who has more people doesnt mean what they speak is true though

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Let us all shed our punctuation and run freely through the forums sowing confusion with every mangled phrase

I actually understood this eventually

C++ programmer, obviously. Mangling is common in those circles ;)

Can't be, no semicolons.

Trying to disguise true origins?

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Originally Posted by FunkyDexter

Couldn't have put it better myself. Abortion shouldn't be viewed as a 'quick fix' but to simply say 'never allow it' ignores the realities of life.


1. You couldn't assume that the fetus's soul goes to heaven, Christianity contains the concept of original sin.

2. To a christian, it is Gods decision as to when you die, not a mothers. The mother therefore cannot claim this as a virtuous act.

3. Murder is murder and would be a far greater sin than sending your child to heaven is a virtue.

4. Good can come from evil acts but that doesn't mean the act isn't evil.

BTW, I'm not a Christian but the point above seem obvious to me.

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#1)
Is original sin in the bible?

Original Sin is a horrible concept.

From your particular Chrisitan perspective (the belief in original sin):

a) God is all powerful
b) God is all good
c) Any person that doesn't accept Christ goes to hell
d) Fetus' are people.
e) A fetus cannot accept Christ, therefore it gets sent to hell for all eternity if it gets aborted by its mother (who also gets sent to hell).

Something is wrong here.

To me, logically, being immoral requires an immoral act.

A fetus cannot commit an immoral act, but Original Sin says they are immoral because they haven't been baptized, or accepted Christ.

The idea of original sin is so idiotic... it makes no sense to me.

The only reason I see for this idea is to scare the parents to make sure their kids are recruited to the religion.

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being immoral requires an immoral act

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but there's the catch, if you DO believe in original sin then we are born sinful and have to be actively moral during our lives to absolve ourselves of that sin. On that basis a baby that never got the chance to do anything actively moral would indeed go to hell (or purgatory or whatever else you happen to believe).

By the way, original sin isn't to do with being baptised or otherwise, rather it's a belief that we're all born bad and have to go forth and do something about it if we're to go to heaven.

Don't get me wrong, I agree with you that original sin seems a fairly abhorent concept. But then I'm not a christian and I don't believe in original sin (neither do many christians). My point was that you were trying to point a contradiction in their belief system, but to do that the contradiction must exist within the belief system itself, not just something that contradicts something that we as non-christians believe.

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Originally Posted by capsulecorpjx

This is a question for the religious people who are against abortion.

What happens to aborted fetus's? Do their souls automatically go to heaven?

If yes ...

Wouldn't it be the ultimate act of sacrifice for a mother to abort her child?

Think about it.

She is committing a grave sin so her child will go directly to heaven.
Because if she gives birth to her child, there is a good chance that her child might not accept the chosen religion, therefore be sent to burn in Hell for all eternity.

Chew on that contradiction for a while.

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That's a very interesting perspective. Consider this:

1. If a foreknowledge of a person's destructive actions are known before they are ever committed, should that person be judged and sentenced before hand?

A: No. Every person has a free will of choice. This right has been granted to every person by God.

2. Since God is the omnipotent being who resideses outside our space and time, why doesn't the one creator destory this creation since he knew his creation would be defient towards him from the start?

A: We we're created to know, love, and serve God. God loves his creation, and out of love comes forgiveness.

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Originally Posted by freshblueO2

That's a very interesting perspective. Consider this:

1. If a foreknowledge of a person's destructive actions are known before they are ever committed, should that person be judged and sentenced before hand?

A: No. Every person has a free will of choice. This right has been granted to every person by God.

2. Since God is the omnipotent being who resideses outside our space and time, why doesn't the one creator destory this creation since he knew his creation would be defient towards him from the start?

A: We we're created to know, love, and serve God. God loves his creation, and out of love comes forgiveness.

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My problem:
In your religion, God created the world knowing people will defy or ignore him or not accept Christ. Therefore they are sent to hell. Which from what I gather means you are to burn for all eternity.

From this perspective, I'd rather have no creation at all, than to have even one person (regardless of what they do) be tortured for eternity.

Another problem . . .

If you create something - let's say a child; do you want this creation to have freewill or be totally deterministic? If it's the latter then I concur that your argument is cogent and rational. If it's the first one then I'm afraid you'll need to concede that you do, in fact, completely understand the relationship between God, man, and creation, and the (basic) implications surrounding it.

The argument against even making this choice is that in reality mankind is somewhere between the extremes of free-will and determinism. But as the Christian faith (and others) don't subscribe to these shade of grey it's irrelevant in this context.

And further...

The further an individual is allowed to further himself, the individual can only go less further.

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Originally Posted by yrwyddfa

Another problem . . .

If you create something - let's say a child; do you want this creation to have freewill or be totally deterministic? If it's the latter then I concur that your argument is cogent and rational. If it's the first one then I'm afraid you'll need to concede that you do, in fact, completely understand the relationship between God, man, and creation, and the (basic) implications surrounding it.

The argument against even making this choice is that in reality mankind is somewhere between the extremes of free-will and determinism. But as the Christian faith (and others) don't subscribe to these shade of grey it's irrelevant in this context.

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Determinism and free will is a philosophical debate.

It has nothing to do with whether the existence of eternal damnation is ethical.

That is where my question about abortion centers. The Christian concept of eternal torture is so extreme, that wouldn't it be a noble act for a Christian mother to committ abortion (a mortal sin) to prevent her child from a very real possibility of rejecting their religion and thus being condemned to being totured for all eternity?

'Pigeon-holing' religious and philosophical issues is a neat trick - and helps you to avoid answering a valid point. Religious people use it; non-religious people use it. I don't care who uses it; it is not a rational act to dismiss either religion of philosphy or the philosophy of religion out of hand.

Fortunately, I've seen it before, as others here have, and realise that without any rational justification, you may as well be vomiting random words.

And if you knew anything about what your are saying then you will realise that 'in the beginning' God created man 'in his own image' I don't think it was talking about looks do you? Perhaps it might be things like 'freewill'?

Freewill is at the very centre of all monotheistic religions. You get to choose whether to believe or otherwise. This is 'celebrated'

As for ethics. . . .

Describe what you think ethics and their applicability to mankind are without introducing rules (determinism) or choice (freewill) . . . .

Describe the anthropological origins of ethics.

Quote 'eternal damnation' from the original source - and include it's outer context.

BTW, capsule . . .

The term 'Hell' is more properly defined as 'the absence of God' The closest (simple) analogy I can think of is a society without the rule of law but I'm sure our Christian friends here would claim that analogy doesn't quite do the term justice . . . .

I don't recall any phrases in the Christian bible describing eternal torture; in fact I can only recall one religious body that encourages this - Catholicism.

If you can dig out the 'burn in hell' etc etc quotes I'd be most grateful.

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Originally Posted by baja_yu

This has to be the stupides question I saw in my entire life. Congratulations.

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This has been the stupidest reply I have even seen. Congratulations.

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"My" Thoughts Pertaining to the main question.

If child isn't tought about God or never really learns about Him then he will not go to hell when he dies. The only way you go to hell is if you reject God. In other words, you only go to hell by sin. This child has to make a "choice" later in life to commit a sin. When he is born he is innocent and will go straight to heaven if he dies. The mother is actually depriving the child of the right to live a good life, if the child "chooses" to live one, in this world and enjoy many of this worlds pleasures. Also there is no gift, sacrifice, act of mercy, or anything that would make the "killing" of a child right. Its murder! And if you don't believe in God, murder is against the law! You ("you" meaning anyone how supports abortion) say its a womens choice, well she made the choice to have the baby in the first place by not being responible! And now she has taken away her freedom of choice! We must remember to have choice we must have responsibility. But I'am getting off-topic, and I don't want to get into an arguement. This is just my opinion.

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Originally Posted by freshblueO2

That's a very interesting perspective. Consider this:

1. If a foreknowledge of a person's destructive actions are known before they are ever committed, should that person be judged and sentenced before hand?

A: No. Every person has a free will of choice. This right has been granted to every person by God.

2. Since God is the omnipotent being who resideses outside our space and time, why doesn't the one creator destory this creation since he knew his creation would be defient towards him from the start?

A: We we're created to know, love, and serve God. God loves his creation, and out of love comes forgiveness.

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Oh here we go :rolleyes:

So according to the analogy of your second question if I create an application and it is truly terrible and doesn't do what I want it to do I must live with it and leave it be? Certainly not, I will either fix it or scrap it and start again.

And how are you supposed to serve God when he leaves no instructions except via a novel with no accredited author, date of publishing or even an original edition!?!

Valleys . . .

Given the scope of the original question, I think that it is enough - solely to answer the question - to presume that God does exist.

If God doesn't exist it does not preclude the question 'If God exists . . . ' etc etc

Bit of a fuzzy head this morning (spending my Budget gains;) Hope this makes sense.