uhn I can see this argument not being resolved anytime soon...
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uhn I can see this argument not being resolved anytime soon...
a lot of posts you make somewhat are directed at Islam being sexistQuote:
Originally posted by barrk
No, Kovan, I don't understand. I was disagreeing with you....not Islam. If you can't see the distinction then please explain because you are being very cryptic.
i personally havent said anything said sexist
so since i havent said anything, that i would classify that as a insult not on me, but IslamQuote:
Examine my responses again without the eyes of hatred..........oh and forget that I'm a woman. I think that may be coloring your judgement.
Beachbum
i am at work right now
no microphone
hehehe
It would appear that what you've said is therefore not representative of Islam.Quote:
Originally posted by kovan
a lot of posts you make somewhat are directed at Islam being sexist
i personally havent said anything said sexist
Kovan, Islam is sexist.
Now, before you jump on that and start saying how you think the Islamic culture encouraged in the Koran treats women better than most western cultures, I am not going to tell you that it's a bad thing. I might not agree with it but I don't think it's my place to say what is bad and what is good in an absolute sense.
Islam is sexist simply because it actively discriminates between men and women, defining roles for each of them seperately. From many people's (mainly brought up in Islamic cultures) point of view, what Islam says about how women should be treated is something that is done for them, but to many people brought up in western cultures it's perceived as something that is done to them. There are just very stark differences of opinion when it comes to what a respectful way to treat women is. Should they be protected and defended and looked after? Or should they be free and independant and potentially vulnerable? It's not for me to say which is better in an absolute sense, but my personal opinion is that the latter is a better way to treat everyone.
Katie's idea of respect for women is clearly very different to your idea of respect for women, and if she is implying that Islam is sexist I think she's totally justified. Don't take it as an insult, because it's not necessarily a bad thing. To me it's a bad thing and (I assume) to Katie it's a bad thing, but to you it's a good thing because you think that women get better treatment that way.
Like I said before, you are seeing insults that aren't there.
Islam has set rules for BOTH men and women
therefore i dont think that can be classified under "sexist"
sexist is when you do one thing to one gender andnot the other
so i cant possibly see how you say it is sexist when it has defiened rules for BOTH
either thats not sexist,
or the word sexist is not defined properly
honeybee, it was started off as a joke
:)
geez man
and about magnitude...
error is error
regardless of the magnitude
I'm relatively unaware of the contents of the Koran but I remember one thing: inheritances. Male next of kin get twice as much as female next of kin.
I have seen the logic behind this explained and I don't need to see it again. The point is, the two genders get different treatment, for various reasons.
There are indeed some rules that apply independant of gender, I don't dispute that. There also seem to be rules that are gender-dependant though.
There is no doubt that there are gender dependent rulesQuote:
Originally posted by HarryW
I'm relatively unaware of the contents of the Koran but I remember one thing: inheritances. Male next of kin get twice as much as female next of kin.
I have seen the logic behind this explained and I don't need to see it again. The point is, the two genders get different treatment, for various reasons.
There are indeed some rules that apply independant of gender, I don't dispute that. There also seem to be rules that are gender-dependant though.
Example:
On fridays, males MUST attend the friday prayer
where as this is an OPTIONAL for the woman
or
When a women gets married, her husband is to give her some amount of money for herself
whereas the man is not entitled to recieve any from the women during the process of marriage
and there are rules for woman that dont apply to man
because men and women have different needs
Do we agree that men and women are different?
and if yes, do we agree that they need different rules to deal with their differences..?
The inheritence... well since you cant see the logic, how that is possible than i will not say it
i feel that logic is fair because neither gender gets mistreatement after ALL the rules have been applied
yes if giving more to male kins rule is applied
and the rules for the rest are NOT applied
than this clearly becomes sexist in favour of the male
but that is if some of the rules are left out (unfortonately this is the practice in some parts)
I was taught christianity in school. Waste of time I must say.
But anyway I'm atheist. I dont believe in god.
Now that I've said that, I myself do not think men and women are equal. We are not. Granted we're both human, but thats where the similarities lie. You dont believe me, then ask a woman to piss standing up.
Anyway, we're not the same.
Nobody on this rock is the same. We're all different.
Blacks are different to white people.
Different religions are different from eachother.
There's lots of stuff thats different.
So you cant really contrast two things that are totally different...
So this whole conversation is bull**** so we should all just get pissed and laid and high and that'll be the end of it
TRUE DATQuote:
Originally posted by plenderj
I was taught christianity in school. Waste of time I must say.
But anyway I'm atheist. I dont believe in god.
Now that I've said that, I myself do not think men and women are equal. We are not. Granted we're both human, but thats where the similarities lie. You dont believe me, then ask a woman to piss standing up.
Anyway, we're not the same.
Nobody on this rock is the same. We're all different.
Blacks are different to white people.
Different religions are different from eachother.
There's lots of stuff thats different.
So you cant really contrast two things that are totally different...
So this whole conversation is bull**** so we should all just get pissed and laid and high and that'll be the end of it
that is why in Islam there are different rules for different genders
Umm... hang on. You've missed something I think. I didn't say I couldn't see the logic in it, I said I have seen the logic before and I don't need to see it again.Quote:
Originally posted by kovan
There is no doubt that there are gender dependent rules
Example:
On fridays, males MUST attend the friday prayer
where as this is an OPTIONAL for the woman
or
When a women gets married, her husband is to give her some amount of money for herself
whereas the man is not entitled to recieve any from the women during the process of marriage
and there are rules for woman that dont apply to man
because men and women have different needs
Do we agree that men and women are different?
and if yes, do we agree that they need different rules to deal with their differences..?
The inheritence... well since you cant see the logic, how that is possible than i will not say it
i feel that logic is fair because neither gender gets mistreatement after ALL the rules have been applied
yes if giving more to male kins rule is applied
and the rules for the rest are NOT applied
than this clearly becomes sexist in favour of the male
but that is if some of the rules are left out (unfortonately this is the practice in some parts)
Whether I agree with the rules Islam states or not is irrelevant, what I am trying to establish is that Islam treats men and women differently. The reasons aren't really the issue here. The fact is, Islam actively treats men and women differently, which means that it's sexist.
You are the one who is applying negativity to the word 'sexist', not me. It's not a way of doing things that I personally agree with but I'm not going to try and tell anyone how they should think, and I can understand the point of view of people who say it's a good thing.
kovan...first let me explain that I was not slurring Islam. Nothing I said as far as I was concerned had anything to do with Islam. I was having a discussion with you. I mean in no way to insult your religion. I do not, however, have to agree with everything you say. Disagreeing with you is disagreeing with you.
Yes, absolutely.Quote:
Do we agree that men and women are different?
No, definitely not. I have been married for 20 years as of yesterday and we have not found it necessary to even set rules. There are things that need to get done in order to live our lives....grocery shopping, dinner cooking, helping kids with homework etc.....we have divided up the duties based upon skills and available time. When I was going to school Tom did almost all of it. When he was commuting I did almost all of it. This is our choice as thinking human beings and a overwhelming desire to make sure that everything that needed to get done was attended to. No rules were required to dictate this to us. We did what needed to be done in our particular situation at the time. As a result both my boys and my daughter know how to take care of themselves.....laundry, cooking, etc. because they have seen both of us (my husband and myself) take care of the chores equally. I think being self-sufficient is very important and shouldn't be dictated by what sex you are.Quote:
do we agree that they need different rules to deal with their differences..?
In that respect you're right katie, but what about other things in life, like sports. Thats entirely fundamentally sexist, but its OK.
Quote:
Originally posted by barrk
kovan...first let me explain that I was not slurring Islam. Nothing I said as far as I was concerned had anything to do with Islam. I was having a discussion with you. I mean in no way to insult your religion. I do not, however, have to agree with everything you say. Disagreeing with you is disagreeing with you.
Yes, absolutely.
No, definitely not. I have been married for 20 years as of yesterday and we have not found it necessary to even set rules. There are things that need to get done in order to live our lives....grocery shopping, dinner cooking, helping kids with homework etc.....we have divided up the duties based upon skills and available time. When I was going to school Tom did almost all of it. When he was commuting I did almost all of it. This is our choice as thinking human beings and a overwhelming desire to make sure that everything that needed to get done was attended to. No rules were required to dictate this to us. We did what needed to be done in our particular situation at the time. As a result both my boys and my daughter know how to take care of themselves.....laundry, cooking, etc. because they have seen both of us (my husband and myself) take care of the chores equally. I think being self-sufficient is very important and shouldn't be dictated by what sex you are.
you only stated things that can be done by BOTH
what about things that cant be done by both
i will use an example from my previous post
Men are required to go and pray on Friday with the rest of community.. that is a rule
This has been made an option for woman
why?
what if that woman is pregnant, cant go because she just had a baby
..
There for there must be different rules for both...
Islam doesnt set out rules on who should cook
or do the laundry
Islam focuses on different rules for both as FAR as religious duties go
In my family my mom does all the cooking
My sisters do the laundry
my dad works
the rest of the males in the house
we clean the house such as vaccuum, clean toilets
take out the gargabe etc
no way does Islam say which sex should cook or do wht ever
this is the place where we all should do things that we ARE capable of
when it come so religous duties, differnet rules apply to different genders
This was your question.....and my answer stands. No. Different rules are not necessary. This is my opinion.Quote:
do we agree that they need different rules to deal with their differences..?
Okay Kovan, so you're saying that different rules are only needed for religous duties. So what about the inheritances? I didn't really want to get into this but it looks like we're already into it. What each sibling inherits isn't due to religious duties, it's to do with the lifestyle they are expected to lead. Men are expected to earn money and protect and look after the family financially & physically, so they get more. Women are supposed to be homemakers and support the family emotionally and raise the children, and it is presumed their financial needs will be provided for by a husband. So they get less inheritance.
This is the lifestyle that the rules are trying to create. It's not just a matter of certain genders being incapable of certain things so they are excepted from certain rules.
katie, can i ask u a question, do u feel islam is a sexist religion??Quote:
Originally posted by barrk
This was your question.....and my answer stands. No. Different rules are not necessary. This is my opinion.
your definately entitled to your opinionQuote:
Originally posted by barrk
This was your question.....and my answer stands. No. Different rules are not necessary. This is my opinion.
i see how that opinion can be accepted by me as far as those things you stated such as cooking laundry etc
if we were only talking about those, i would definately agree with you that there dont need to be any rules for different genders
but i believe since your not to familiar witht he religous duties of muslim men and women, then it become a different issue to you than it is to me
like plenderj said. about pissing
how come woman cant piss standing.. (well they can but that would be a mess)
and how come this society dont install urinators in women washrooms (not that i have ever been in one... :) )
so i guess the final thing ihave to say on this is
Different rules should apply to different situations
again your entitled to your opinion
Congratulations on your big anniversay. No mean feat in this day and age. :)Quote:
Originally posted by barrk
I have been married for 20 years as of yesterday
Thanks, ID!!!!!!!!
20 years :eek:
i think u should write a book on how 2 actually hold a marraige 2gether :)
Your marriage is only a few months younger than me :)
Congrats.
Thanks......LOL @ Harry!
Not sure I could write an entire book but, I think our marriage has lasted due to mutual respect, common goals..
and plenty of sex!
its my parents' 21st anniversary today :)
.... and seperated 6 years too ;)
I don't think China was too pissed about that one. notice that a few months later the Clinton Admin gave them the technology to launch rockets into space.Quote:
Originally posted by honeybee
Blowing up the Chinese embassy in Belgrade? Sending missiles to India instead of Afghanistan? Do you think there is any difference between the magnitude of errors that could be involved?
I do. But then you are entitled to your opinion. :p
.
Even trade I guess?:rolleyes:
Oh yea, Congrats!!!!:D
its older than me :eek:Quote:
Originally posted by HarryW
Your marriage is only a few months younger than me :)
Congrats.
lol careful, katie might snap if she starts to feel the age ;)Quote:
Originally posted by ghost ryder
its older than me :eek:
Kovan
Islam is sexist because it gives different rights to men and women.
Sexism doesn't (always) have to be about favouring men over women, it can be the other way round.
You might (and do) argue that they have different needs and therefore have different rights. That has nothing to do with it. It is still sexist.
Your analogy with differing toilet facilities is laughable.
and you sir, have a stupid hat :)
sex·ism (skszm)Quote:
Originally posted by simonm
Kovan
Islam is sexist because it gives different rights to men and women.
Sexism doesn't (always) have to be about favouring men over women, it can be the other way round.
You might (and do) argue that they have different needs and therefore have different rights. That has nothing to do with it. It is still sexist.
Your analogy with differing toilet facilities is laughable.
n.
Discrimination based on gender, especially discrimination against women.
Attitudes, conditions, or behaviors that promote stereotyping of social roles based on gender.
dis·crim·i·nat·ing (d-skrm-ntng)
adj.
Able to recognize or draw fine distinctions; perceptive.
Showing careful judgment or fine taste: a discriminating collector of rare books; a dish for the discriminating palate.
Separating into distinct parts or components; analytical.
Serving to distinguish; distinctive: a discriminating characteristic.
Marked by or showing bias; discriminatory.
sorry but not according to the defination of "sexist"
source: www.dictionary.com
I think it's quite amusing that you see the toilet analogy as fitting. I think the difference is that if a woman (for some unkown reason) decides that she wants to pee standing up:confused: that she may....there are no rules saying she can't (other than the law of gravity) and will not be taken out and shot in the head in a public square for doing so....she will quickly be ushered to a psychologist instead;)
Anyway, I think you started this discussion by saying we (Americans) had no right to complain if we see people rejoicing in the streets over the death of a few thousand people or if we are hit by a biological attack. You somehow turned this into an anti-Islam discussion. I never attacked your religion. I was appalled by your statements. The things you said, I took exception to. I have issues with you. Don't distort what I say to suit your bias. On the same note, don't require me to agree with you. I am entitled to be appalled by what you say.
Jaimie...............I don't think I will ever feel the age....I'm having to much fun to notice I'm old.....so don't tell me okay?;)
*ahem*Quote:
Attitudes, conditions, or behaviors that promote stereotyping of social roles based on gender.
Fits like a glove IMHO.
In no way have i made it a requirement for you to agree with meQuote:
Originally posted by barrk
I think it's quite amusing that you see the toilet analogy as fitting. I think the difference is that if a woman (for some unkown reason) decides that she wants to pee standing up:confused: that she may....there are no rules saying she can't (other than the law of gravity) and will not be taken out and shot in the head in a public square for doing so....she will quickly be ushered to a psychologist instead;)
Anyway, I think you started this discussion by saying we (Americans) had no right to complain if we see people rejoicing in the streets over the death of a few thousand people or if we are hit by a biological attack. You somehow turned this into an anti-Islam discussion. I never attacked your religion. I was appalled by your statements. The things you said, I took exception to. I have issues with you. Don't distort what I say to suit your bias. On the same note, don't require me to agree with you. I am entitled to be appalled by what you say.
Jaimie...............I don't think I will ever feel the age....I'm having to much fun to notice I'm old.....so don't tell me okay?;)
and i believe ihave stated above that you are totally entitled to your opinion..
going back to the toilet analogy
if a women decides to piss while standing infront of a urinator...
she will make a MESS
and she should be resposible somehow for cleaning up that mess or dealing with the mess
so i would say that there is a hidden rule that women shouldnt piss standing :)
because i got a Di ck..
something you lack :)
what do you mean decent levelQuote:
Originally posted by honeybee
Let's keep it at a descent level. I know that's way above for you, but that's how it gotta be done.
So you say you are a man, huh?
.
i havent said anything
are you still at the gigling stage about that part of the human body?
does it piss you off?
am going home
good day
actually i just dont want to answer cus you want an answer :)
Which question HoneyBee?Quote:
Originally posted by honeybee
tut, tut, your silence might sow the seeds of suspicion in some minds. Is it such a hard question that you can't reply in absolute Yes/No terms?
.