Jesus4u Thread...

As much as I believe I should continue my single handed boycott of this thread, I can't help but say something here.

I have been silently viewing this thread and am amazed at how people are still banging their heads against a brick wall trying to engage J4U into something resembling debate but well, I admire their persistance.

At least, I suppose, a couple of others have stepped in and are at least attempting to hold up the "pro Jesus" side of the argument (namely Redth and Tygur) so it hasn't been an entirely vain thread.

I would like to say that two very different issues are being confusingly intertwined, that of the existance of God, and that of the validity of the particular approach to God we call Christianity.

These are very different issues and I (IMHO) don't think they should be confused. The first being a more difficult and predominately philosophical discussion and the second being more of an issue of historical and linguistic interpretation.

Ah...I feel better now. I'm going back to my boycott! ;)

u BLEW your boycott!

null and void now!!!!!! hehe :eek: :)

JESUS4U

for the third bloody time, would you please answer my question? it's one of the very few posts that have shown the slightest bit of interest in your belief, which is what you're trying to accomplish isn't it? here it is again if you missed it:

just out of interest, when all you religous people say you talk to God, what form of communication does this take? i mean do you talk to him like you'd talk to a person and hear his voice like a person's voice, or do you hear his voice in your head and talk to him with your mind, or what?

Jesus4u - You are just pathetic. You start a religious thread trying to convince people that what you believe is true, and yet you are too rude to even ackowledge people's posts when they are slightly confrontational.

If you don't want to discuss it, go away and don't bother posting. If you want to discuss it, respond to people's points. If you just ignore people, everyone will think you can't answer. And they'll probably be right.

Logical my arse. You don't even understand your own beliefs, perhaps you ought to sort yourself out before you start trying to change other people :mad:

Quote:

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Originally posted by jesus4u
Romans 6:23

For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Commentary: Since we as humans have rebelled against God by not obeying His commands we are thus called sinners and sin has a penalty(separation from knowing God). But God extends His arm to us through Jesus Christ and offers eternal life through trusting and believing that Jesus died for the penalty due to us for our own sins.

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I have a question. You say that the penalty is "separation from knowing God"? Isn't death the penalty, according to that scripture? Where do you get this separation thing from?

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Originally posted by CiberTHuG
Okay, let's look at this logically. And first, I want you to realize, unlike Kedaman, that logic is a universal set of self-evident rules. They are not something invented by man.

The bible is a book. This book claims that a god exists. If this god exists does this mean that what is written in all books is true? Obviously not, so we can't hold the text of any book as being sole proof. We need something more.

Jesus of Nazereth. Yes, he existed, and he claims there is a god. If this god exists does this mean that all men who claim their father is god or some such are speaking the truth? Obviously not, after all, the followers of Jesus claim that Budda was mistaken, and the follows of Budda claim that Jesus was exagerating. Oh, then there is Charles Manson and Joan d'Arc. We need something more.

Okay, he has touched your life in some spiritual matter, one that has left no physical evidence. Well, there is this carpet cleaner that has touched my life, and I think everyone should buy and use my carpet cleaner. Obviously again, you aren't going to believe the mouth of he who is trying to sell something. We need something more.

Vein is a line, or a course of something: a blood vein, a quartz vein. Vain is self interest, vanity.

Why did your god make man?

There is no perceivable reason, so I have to wonder why a god would make a man without good reason. Which inturn makes me think that perhaps there really isn't a god.

But if there is, the only reason revealed to us (and thus the only reason that is a basis for worshipping him) is to love him. He made man in his own image so that we may know him. That is conceit and vanity. He didn't make us to do the right thing (to fight evil), he didn't make us so he could take joy in watching us grow (as a parent would), he didn't make us so he could share the universe with him (as a parent would), and he didn't make us so we would outlive him (as any life strives to do). He made us for the sole purpose of laying down at his feet and worshipping.

I could be wrong, but no one has put forth any plausible cause.

As to using the sublime elegance of the universe as evidence of the hand of a creator, well...

the universe wouldn't work with out its intracicies, which means that we wouldn't be here to appreciate it. So you aren't saying "it's so good has to be created", you are saying "it is created". You have no basis for comparision. Perhaps our universe is not as elegant as it could be.

In any case, the existance of a creation does not indicate the existance of a creator.

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I wanted to repost this, since it got scrolled. Redth or J4U, if you think you can respond.

Oh wait... Redth, if you think you can respond. J4U is just a hollow windbag.

ok i am back
sorry it was a LONG day of meetings,
on the bright side, i did some training
and had one of the hottest trainers
mmmm
i was drooooooling most of the time

back to the reality

HarryW - I believe my statement stated that because no one could properly convince me that there is no god, i stopped listening after a long time was wasted in giving those people a chance to make a point.

SD -
the point i wanted to get to, unfortonately was cut down
so i will continue here,

I agree that its very hard for people that dont believe in God to see the existence of God,
no questions about that
but for those of us that do believe in God, we see (at least me) Nothing more clear than His existence

I look at my hands, feet, my system,
my eyez
i come to no conclusion other than that there must be a higher power to have created such thing.
i havent had anyone successfuly prove the fact that God doesnt exist either. so if you ask me to prove it, i will ask you to disprove it :) (going in circles)
believing in the existence of God is definately influenced by the faith one has.
In most cases, isnt it ambitions and beliefs in something to drive us to achieve more?

if you could tell me how God is cruel that would help me undrestand what you mean

and same goes for the "vane and blackmailer"
if you could shed some light on that, that would be great

now to the point i wanted to make in the last thread

why is it that most non religous people only pick issues that seem contriversial issues? and neclect the benefits a religous person offers to the society?
let me pick on one of these issues that doesnt get brought up

as a muslim, we are required to pay 2.5% of our savings to 8 categories of people every year

1. Needy
2. Poor
3. Traveler who needs money to get to their destination if they run into problems
4. paying to free slaves
and other 4 categories

now those categories does NOT mean you only give it to other muslims, it can be given to any race, colour, nation of people

now if every one in the world did pay 2.5% of their savings to these categories of people, would you agree that we would have less people doing of hunger? and poverty?
I can think for myself,
I have a nice house
nice car,
a great family
and a great job, with a lot of money and a loving fiance

now why do i need religion? i mean i have everything a person wants in most cases. but the only thing i lack is the inner peace that believing in God offers me.
its something i cant buy, learn to get from elsewhere or event teach someone to have

I truely believe that my religion teaches me to be a better person for my family, my property, and DEFINATELY humanity at large

i pray 5 times a day,
i fast one month every year
i give 2.5% of my money to the poor and needy etc
and i do a lot of other things that i dont have to if i wasnt a believer in God

i do these things because i WANT to, not because I am blind

n e ways, enough about that, hope your not sleeping yet

but why is it that one SOMEONE who belong to a religion, when they make a mistake, finger is pointed NOT at them directly, but the religion they belong to (most cases)
but when a person does something good for the society, they dont say "well they belong to that religion"

Al Chemy and Algebra, Bottany were developed my the muslims (to a big digree)
and advancedments in astronomy also
almanac was developed my the muslims
a LOT of the first steps towards science and math were developed by the muslims

its a SHAME on us muslims that we dont make such advancements for the humanity anymore.
so my point is,

let me make a point,
in the Qur'an there are few statements about other forms of life in existence,
would it be logical to assume that someone with GREAT belief in Qur'an will drive himself/herself to find such thing? and help make a breakthrough for humanity at large?

ok enough, i am falling asleep myself :)

in short

you believe in what you want
i will believe in what i want

we BOTH have skills, talents, that humanity at large can benefit from.

Kovan - most of what you say is really fair enough, I have no quarrel with it, but (yes you knew there would be a 'but' ;) ) religion isn't necessary for the good things that come out of what you say you do. Besides, surely you shouldn't choose a religion based on its benefits. You are either religious or you're not, and which religion you are should be based on what you believe about the world around you. You don't compare religions and choose the one that offers you the most.

A lot of scientific progress was made by muslims, yes. A lot was also made by Jews, Christians, Buddhists, Sikhs, and whatever other religion you may care to name. That's not being debated, unless you are saying this as some kind of defense against the issue of open-mindedness to new things. If that's the case, I say again that the point I was making is that religious people close their minds off to the possibility of learning about anything that might challenge their beliefs.

This closed-mindedness is well documented in history. In the 16th/17th century, when Bruno and later Galileo suggested the Earth revolved around the Sun, which was evident from Copernicus' scientific research, they were branded heretics by the church, who favoured Ptolemy's ideas (which dated back to around 150 BC). Bruno was burned at the stake for it. Galileo got off lightly, with life imprisonment.

The fact is, though, that the Earth does revolve around the Sun. The specific religion of this situation doesn't particularly matter, the point is that people who believe so strongly in something that they are unwavering in their faith, totally without doubt, are never going to learn any further about anything that conflicts with their beliefs. They are stuck in a rut along the way to gaining knowledge. I couldn't stand that.

ok..

well, to address everyone who is saying.. "prove this god"... well, i think kovan did a good job of summing it up... you ask us to prove god... we ask you to disprove him....

but again, another thing is that god doesn't just prove himself to everyone for that would force faith, and that wouldn't be freedom...

god isn't cruel... it's humans who are cruel.. humans kill humans.... god could intervene, however he would rather give us our freedom...

again, as kovan said, we could go around in circles here with this...

heh, and yeah, no hard feelings to all... i too enjoy debates such as this :)... especially the non-believer's questions... they really test my faith and knowledge!...

now, to address the point.. why would god make us??? well... i must admit, to a point, yes i believe god is a bit vain, and selfish... well, i do believe there are other reasons to our creation besides self worship, but i can agree with you that god is a selfish god (to a point).... i can't back this up with any scripture, but im sure i've read in the bible on several occasions affirming this....

but, why shouldn't he be selfish??? if he MADE you, he owns you... he brought you to this world.... he didn't have to ... he brought you here with a plan...

i know this may sound a tad bit contradictory with the freedom at whatever cost, and that he made you so you should worship him.... however, that's how it goes.... again, i do really believe there are other reasons to all this... reasons not revealed to us.... and so, i therefore cannot explain them... as our humanly minds can't comprehend....

as for our soles being more important that a beetle, well in genesis it states that god made humans, to have rule over the land and all the other creatures..... god made us as the rulers of the earth.... the top of the food chain.....


heh, i have a subtle feeling that this thread may start moving from sheer arguing that there is/isn't a god to some actual involved discussions proving or disproving a point :D ......


tygur, i do believe in the trinity, yes.... but am interested in seeing your view on it :)

Looks like this thread isn't going to contain any interesting ideas for those of us who haven't made any kind of leap of faith and just assumed there is a god for no reason.

I'm not at atheist by the way. I'm interested in any new ideas that I can consider. I am naturally analytical though, so I'm not easily convinced. It looks like there aren't going to be any ideas I can use generated from this thread, which is kind of a shame.

HarryW

actually me mentioning muslims contribution to the world was in a way a defence against all the nasty things people say about islam become some "so called muslims" act lets say not normal
so if one mentions the bad of muslims to describe the religion, how come no one ever describes the good of muslims to describe the religion

oh and that "but" thing, trust me i have developed this function in my head, if your a c++, its an INLINE function thats always loaded to memory when reading your posts looking for that "i disagree" or "but"
so it was totally expected :)

I do believe religion is needed for MOST people to make them better people also i do believe Islam (since its the religion i know most about) has a LOT to offer to humanity in the future as far as discoveries to be made and so on

Albert Einstein said "Religion without science is blind, science without religion is blind"

yes thats a jew that said that,
he has my respect, so that should prove to some people that i am NOT anti-semitic (not you Harry)

as i said before, religion is one of the vital parts of my life, and many people i know
and i know many people that were always in trouble now that they have turned to religion are better people for themselves and others around them

I find it facinating that so many people in north america are becoming muslims, i mean they have the choice to choose between "freedom of the west" and the "ever so strict Islam"
i mean you cant logically say ALL these people are dumb :)
i think religion can offer spiritual peace that no other source can
which makes it a vital part of life

oh and Harry, you might talk to beachbum, sd, and few others
they are on their way to hell
:)

what will interest you, what specific topic that we may open?
i certainly dont want to go on and on and on if you and others are not interested, id rather talk about something that is interesting to the majority

I take a general interest in any philosophical topic. Religion is just another kind of philosophy to me. What I was hoping to get out of people here was the specific reasons that they believed in a god, without using religious scripture as a backup for their reasons. Since I don't place a great deal of value in what the literature says, I just cannot be convinced by anything for which the reasons given are 'it says so in the <insert scripture here> so it must be true'.

I'm not particularly interested in any religions specifically. Just the existence (or not) of a god in general.

I don't mean to dismiss your opinion (I'm not dismissing it - not yet anyway ;) ) but I have heard many of your reasons already in other threads. Perhaps you have many reasons I haven't seen. I was trying to make some sense of Jesus4u's and Redth's reasons for believing. It doesn't look like either of them is going to say anything I can relate to though.

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Originally posted by Redth

as for our soles being more important that a beetle, well in genesis it states that god made humans, to have rule over the land and all the other creatures..... god made us as the rulers of the earth.... the top of the food chain.....

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So what about the dinosaurs. They ruled the earth before us.

SD

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Originally posted by Redth
ok..

well, to address everyone who is saying.. "prove this god"... well, i think kovan did a good job of summing it up... you ask us to prove god... we ask you to disprove him....

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You are the ones expecting us to believe in his existance. We are quite happy with you believing and us not believing. I'm afraid the ball is firmly in your court on this one :D

SD

let me use some "science"

every thing is caused by another thing
law of motion or something like that (physics)

if i dont type, it wont display on screen, if it dont display on screen you wont see it..
so everything is based on an action
and there MUST be a beganning that has initiated these actions
i believe that perticular law does state there must be a beganning

i believe God is that beganning
as i did say before, i look at my physical self
i cannot possibly think of any other way how this body is so perfectly put togather without any error
i cannot contenplate the fact that i can see so well with just one of my eyez,
thats on a small scare

how is the universe SO perfectly put in place
according to science or something i read somewhere (i know for a fact it wasnt religious source :) )
that if the sun was one inch closer than it is, we would all burn to death, and if it was one inch further, we would freeze to death)

why does earth go around the sun?
while its making its journey, why doesnt the sun go nutz or the earth go nutz and fall out of orbit or take a different direction
why do we humans have the ability to distinguish between right and wrong while animals and plants cant?

how come the only way we can reproduce is to have a male and female that have the right material

why do we have male and females to begin with?

now some of those questions might be wacko
but i have million other questions that there is no answer to other than the fact that believing a higher power has control over such matters

to be religous, there must be some faith
without faith you cannot be religious
unless you made up a "religion" in your basement and call it religion


does science teach you to be just?
does math teach you to be just?

we as humans can only go so far with math and science,
the rest we must rely on a supreme being for answers

in short,
IMHO, we need religion, because we do not have all the tools to answer everything for us
and i do not believe religion is a escape goat, meaning that if we cant add numbers and say "well we dont have the answers so we must believe that there is no way to add numbers other than believe that God knows how to add and we must believe he is the only one that knows how to add"
but i am talking about more complex questions that have not and will not be answered until end of time

every thing we discover, we are hit with more unsolved questions
take space for an example

there was a time that we DIDNT knwo space existed
so the question was "is there anything beside that yellow thing (star)"

now we know space exists, we want to knwo whats in it
and once we know exactly whats in it, we will be hit with more unsolved questions,

no one will ever be able to have all the answers
other than the creator, and thats God

*notice i didnt use any scripture*
:)

Kovan

Your, so called "science" is underpinned by assumptions that God must be true. If you start with that assumption, and then you arrive at the same conclusion, all you are demonstrating is circular logic.

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every thing is caused by another thing
law of motion or something like that (physics)

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Whilst that is true for the laws of motion, it is not true for quantum mechanics. It's something to do with the uncertainty principle but sub atomic particals can (and do) spontaneously pop into existance (and out again) with no cause.

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if i dont type, it wont display on screen, if it dont display on screen you wont see it..
so everything is based on an action
and there MUST be a beganning that has initiated these actions
i believe that perticular law does state there must be a beganning

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Why Must there be a beginning? If one can perceive time as extending infinitely into the future, why could it not extend infinitely into the past?

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i believe God is that beganning

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Is God really a beginning? Who created God? What caused God? If you would have us believe that he was not created but always existed, why could the same not be said of the universe itself?

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how is the universe SO perfectly put in place
according to science or something i read somewhere (i know for a fact it wasnt religious source )
that if the sun was one inch closer than it is, we would all burn to death, and if it was one inch further, we would freeze to death)

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Although the earth is very delicately balanced (I don't think it is that delicately balanced), the fact that at least one planed in the trillions of solar systems in the universe that happens to contain one planet that meets these "perfect" conditions is hardly suprising. Besides, life evolves to thrive in the niche that the particular environment provides. If our environment had been different, so would life.

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why does earth go around the sun?
while its making its journey, why doesnt the sun go nutz or the earth go nutz and fall out of orbit or take a different direction

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Well, it was you yourself that eluded to Newtons laws of motion. Objects remain either at rest or at a constant velocity unless a force acts upon them. OK, there is the centrifugal force from the sun but that only serves to maintain the system of all the planet's orbit. The sun and the Earth are not going to suddenly start behaving differentluy until another force comes along and upsets the stable system.

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why do we humans have the ability to distinguish between right and wrong while animals and plants cant?

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Er, we can't! We all think we can but the evidence drawn from thousands of years of human history shows that we all have different ideas of what is right and what is wrong.

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how come the only way we can reproduce is to have a male and female that have the right material

why do we have male and females to begin with?

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All I can say to this is that you should go away and study some evolutionary theory (and the theories of self-organising systems).

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but i have million other questions that there is no answer to other than the fact that believing a higher power has control over such matters

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Whilst science may not be able to explain everything, there is no reason why it shouldn't go on to answer all your questions in the future. Maybe not in your lifetime, so if you feel the need to fill in these gaps with a supernatural explantion, fine.

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every thing we discover, we are hit with more unsolved questions

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True, we reveal more and more questions the further we delve into the unknown. I see no reason why we should be able to continue finding not miraculous explanations for these questions even if they do, in their turn, lead to further quesitons.

The only real gap in science, or where science comes down to the same level as religion is for it's base assumtions. i.e. Why are the laws of physics as they are? Why are they not different? For answers to these questions, we can only choose to believe and we may never have an answer that goes beyond faith.

Well I have no quarrel with that Kovan. If the existence of the world around you makes you believe there is a god then that's fine for you. I can see the appeal, but I can't help but suspect there's an answer that doesn't need to involve religion.

I can see some benefits religion brings to a community, mainly that it enforces a moral framework that everyone who believes in it tries to adhere to. So people will tend to cooperate. I don't think religion is a necessity for this though. It can help some people, but it causes side-effect problems. Overall I'm not sure if it's a good or a bad thing.

Okay, the one inch closer/further away business is untrue. The earth is not in a perfectly circular orbit (very close, but not quite). The surface of the earth undulates by many kilometres, this inch of difference would be insignificant next to this.

But simon hit the nail on the head when he pointed out that life evolved on this planet to fit the environment. If Earth had been much warmer/colder then that too would have been the perfect environment for humans et all.

So why do you have difficulty believing that there is no starting point for the universe, yet you can quite happily believe in a super-being who doesn't have a starting point.

As for being perfectly formed, I would argue with this strongly. Whilst compared to the clumsy machines we make, we are very sophisticated we do have many flaws. We die very easily (heat, prolonged cold, lack of oxygen, lack of food, lack of water, we don't bounce very well when dropped from a hight, we cannot survive in most climates without clothing (we would die in even temperate environments)), we are slower than many creatures, weaker, less resiliant to illness and disease, we can easily bleed to death, many people have cancer or crippled bodies or brains. Many are emotionally unstable, I would say we are far from being perfect.

SD

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Originally posted by SurfDemon


So what about the dinosaurs. They ruled the earth before us.

SD

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So anyway, back to this question. if god made man to rule the earth, what about the dinosaurs?

SD

Universe has a beganning,
which is a creation of God :)

dinasours? what about them?
they are creatures of God
just like the rest of animal kingdom

i dont believe God created man to rule the earth

God created man to worship him, nothing more nothing less
and according to my beliefs, those that do worship him will be rewarded, and those that dont will be punished

Simonm, i certainly dont want to ignore any questions you may have asked that i couldnt pick out from your post
if there is any please point them

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I do believe we need religion to teach us moralify of life
and frighten us of the punishment if we do unmoral thing, such as kill innocent people

Religion teachs one how to be just and moral
science and maths don't

after all, our conscience is what distinguishes us from the rest of creation
and the only thing that i can see to be incontrol of our conscience is religion driving this conscience
by that i mean, we have Evil and Good conscience
truely believe religion is a wall for those that want their conscience to be the good side, not on evil
the only reason religion exist is to warn against the evil
if there was no evil, there would be no religion

You seem to be more or less on your own, Kovan, in your opinion that people need to be religious to have morals.

Don't you think it's possible that the universe has always existed and will always exist? Does there really have to be a beginning and an end? It would be good if you could seperate your own philosophical thoughts from what your religion tells you on this.

The concept that the universe was always here with no beginning is hard to grasp. I think it makes more sense to say that the universe did have an absolute beginning (perhaps at the big bang) and that it was created by a being of some sort (This would be God). If time only exists within the confines of this universe, then it can easily be said that this being would have no beginning and no end, since he would've created time itself.

How funny..people sometimes question how could anything in the universe exist without a God.

If everything needs to be created then who created the God ?
Why don't we worship that thing ?

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Genesis 1:26

And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

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Genesis 1:28

And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

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Originally posted by thinktank
How funny..people sometimes question how could anything in the universe exist without a God.

If everything needs to be created then who created the God ?
Why don't we worship that thing ?

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if a thing created god, then a thing created that thing, and another created the other thing which leads to an endless thing :)

God is our final destination
choose to accept it, cool
choose not to accept it, still upto you
i stop at God, and i say "God, you da greatest"
:)



Redth, your using a "corrupt" scriputure to state something,
i think it would be in everyones interest if you didnt quote from the bible

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Originally posted by Redth
well, to address everyone who is saying.. "prove this god"... well, i think kovan did a good job of summing it up... you ask us to prove god... we ask you to disprove him....

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Do you believe in unicorns? True, I have not seen one, so that is no proof that they do not exist. But, you see, no one has seen one.

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now, to address the point.. why would god make us??? well... i must admit, to a point, yes i believe god is a bit vain, and selfish... well, i do believe there are other reasons to our creation besides self worship, but i can agree with you that god is a selfish god (to a point).... i can't back this up with any scripture, but im sure i've read in the bible on several occasions affirming this....

but, why shouldn't he be selfish??? if he MADE you, he owns you... he brought you to this world.... he didn't have to ... he brought you here with a plan...

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[list=1][*]Having the power to do something does not mean you have the right to do it.[*]I shall one day make children. I can never punish them for not loving me, I can only love them, protect them, and hope they love me.[*]Until he pays me the respect I deserve and imparts this plan, I have no choice but go my own way.[/list=1]

Further... if the divine has concern for my soles, he shouldn't for I do wear shoes.

Perhaps Satan can make us a better offer than God can? Does anyone know what sort of package Satan is offering people (for their souls) these days?

I bet, in this materialistic day and age, it'd have to be good!

Capitalism for instance

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How funny..people sometimes question how could anything in the universe exist without a God.

If everything needs to be created then who created the God ?
Why don't we worship that thing ?

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Who said there is something in the first place?
You are no better than the others.

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You seem to be more or less on your own, Kovan, in your opinion that people need to be religious to have morals.

Don't you think it's possible that the universe has always existed and will always exist? Does there really have to be a beginning and an end? It would be good if you could seperate your own philosophical thoughts from what your religion tells you on this.

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Existance is your private definition

Hello again you guys!

Today's God quotation is:

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Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death; but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

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Yes, as I read it, God offers for FREE eternal Life in Jesus Christ!

Awesome!!!:D

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Originally posted by kedaman
Existance is your private definition

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Tell that to the bus driver that runs you over!! :D

not eternal earthly life. that's not what God's talking about there.
what he means is what's more important. we all have to die an earthly death, but our earthly life is unimportant anyway, other than to evengalize. the important part is Eternal Spiritual life, which is what god offers us for believing and relying on him.

by Ciberthug:

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Having the power to do something does not mean you have the right to do it.

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he brings up an interesting point. If you had hampsters or mice as pets, even though you have the ability to kill them, it would not be the right thing to do. if those hampsters had the ability to oppose you and kill otehr hampsters, why would you continue to support them, unless they gave true repentance? you would value the ones that agreed with you and did as you wished, and you would treat the others as lost. a loving god would feel sorrow that any had left, and would give them the chance to come back and gain their reward. an unloving god would kill them. now, even the loving god would not invite them back to incite trouble, he would have no choice but to let them go their way.

god does not Take heaven away from us if we misbehave, he takes Hell away from us if we repent. as a race, we all die. we all deserve to die. god gives us the opportunity to live, because he hates to see us die.

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Originally posted by beachbum

Tell that to the bus driver that runs you over!! :D

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private, j00 sux0r! :D I'm immortal

http://www.lachnu.nl/grog/cgi-bin/fe...ode=1005600544

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Originally posted by bobjustbob
god does not Take heaven away from us if we misbehave, he takes Hell away from us if we repent. as a race, we all die. we all deserve to die. god gives us the opportunity to live, because he hates to see us die. [/B]

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What's wrong with dying now all of a sudden? It must be the most pleasant thing ever! Think about it, every time you wake up in the morning of the alarm clock at 6:00am you think "noo! not again, If i just could sleep a bit more" Sometimes you even sleep a bit more, but then you get even more pi$$sed at yourself when you wake up and have missed important events. Now if just could sleep all the time you want, even loosing the concept of time, wouldn't that be heaven?!?!

yes, and with an agnostic view, that's what you would believe would happen when you die. unfortunately, at least as far as my belief goes, that's not the worst of it.

nonsense! I'm not sceptic, but rather an intrumentalist, so I don't give a s**t about truth.

i guess, really, i don't care about truth either. i can't prove it, so why would i care whether it's true or not? but i have to take a guess. when you're walking down the street and you step up onto what you percieve as a curb, there's no way to prove that the curb is really there, for all you Know you could fall into an endless hole, or whatever. but you have to operate on that assumption (that there Is a curb there) or you'll never get anywhere.

Okay have your guess, I would do the same, because after all i'm aware of that curb

those who tell themselves that they Know, and that they do not guess, decieve themselves.

i am not a fanatic Christian. i do not argue soft facts with other soft facts.
i am not an ignorant Christian. i do not start debates i cannot compete in.
i am not a stupid Christian. i can compete in most arguments.

Well, to me you are an instrumentalist as well, not a Christian :)
But this is just a new assumption, and our terminologies don't match :p

here is an email I received today...

It expresses God's love for us!

Who would you die for? Would you die for a stranger or for a wicked person? Would you die for someone who has hurt others? It is hard to think of someone dying for a righteous person, let alone for a sinner, as you once were. But that is what Jesus did.

This is how I showed My love for you. While you were still a sinner, My Son Jesus died for you. I sent My one and only Son into the world that you might live through Him. This is love. I did not wait for you to love Me. I loved you first and sent My Son as an atoning sacrifice for your sins.

Jesus Christ redeemed you from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for you. I made Him who had no sin to be sin for you, so that in Him you might become the righteousness of God.

He Himself bore your sins in His body on the tree, so that you might die to sin and live for righteousness. Your healing is a result of His wounds.

So in Him you have redemption through His blood and the forgiveness of your sins, in accordance with the riches of My grace that I lavished on you.

Never forget what My Son did for you. He defines love. Because of Him, you are My child.

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Originally posted by bobjustbob
he [CiberTHuG] brings up an interesting point.

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One that you seemed to have missed.

I'm not refering to divine judgement. I'm talking about creation in the first place. Just because the divinity has the power to create man, doesn't mean he is justified in doing so.

He created us in his own imagine. As a result, we continue to have the vanity and greed that he demonstrated at the moment of our creation.

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Originally posted by CiberTHuG


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He created us in his own imagine. As a result, we continue to have the vanity and greed that he demonstrated at the moment of our creation.

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This shows your lack of knowledge for the character of God.

God is love and He is not vain. YOU may think it is vain but it is not.

WE are the ones that think of God in wrong ways. God is always just in what He does. He never does an unjust thing. He always takes care of the poor, widows and the sick. Heck, He even sent Jesus to die for us , those who spit in His face all day long, and HE STILL loves us!
:eek:

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Originally posted by jesus4u
here is an email I received today...

It expresses God's love for us!

Who would you die for? Would you die for a stranger or for a wicked person? Would you die for someone who has hurt others? It is hard to think of someone dying for a righteous person, let alone for a sinner, as you once were. But that is what Jesus did.

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Hey, you've got God's email address. Culd you send it on to me, I've been meaning to ask him a few things :D

Also, I couldn't help but notice that I used to be a sinner, and now I'm not. That was awfully good of him ;)

SD

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Originally posted by jesus4u
This shows your lack of knowledge for the character of God.

God is love and He is not vain. YOU may think it is vain but it is not.

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You're just stating your opinion here. Who has the wisdom to say what the character of God is? You seem to have made up your mind about it. You act as if you have all the facts.

I think this shows your lack of understanding of your own beliefs.

As humans we are fallible. If you ever start to think you know something absolutely, you are probably wrong. Your beliefs are opinions, not facts. The character of God is not something I would consider you qualified to evaluate.

Jesus4u

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God is always just in what He does.

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That is a pretty meaningless statement if you think about it.

If God himself defines justice, anything he does will therefore be just. He is not even bound to keep the same rules of justice the same. He changes them over time; hence the OLD and NEW testamants.

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He never does an unjust thing.

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Well how can he? What ever he does will become just because it is him doing it.

If he decides to flood the earth and kill mankind, it must be just because God defines justice to be anything he wants it to be.

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He always takes care of the poor, widows and the sick.

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How do you define "taking care"? He takes care of them by letting them suffer and die. Yeah, great!

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Originally posted by jesus4u
This shows your lack of knowledge for the character of God.

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READ MY POSTS! I have pointed out time and again how your fictional god has acted out of pure vain greed. If you want to address any of these points, feel free. But spewing propaganda accomplishes nothing. Just because you think he is all wonderful (and real) doesn't mean he is (either).

And, in case you can't scroll back... I've snipped this little part.

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There is no perceivable reason, so I have to wonder why a god would make a man without good reason. Which inturn makes me think that perhaps there really isn't a god.

But if there is, the only reason revealed to us (and thus the only reason that is a basis for worshipping him) is to love him. He made man in his own image so that we may know him. That is conceit and vanity. He didn't make us to do the right thing (to fight evil), he didn't make us so he could take joy in watching us grow (as a parent would), he didn't make us so he could share the universe with him (as a parent would), and he didn't make us so we would outlive him (as any life strives to do). He made us for the sole purpose of laying down at his feet and worshipping.

I could be wrong, but no one has put forth any plausible cause.

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So, what reason does your god give for creating man?

:D Ciber u are the true voice of the people!! j4u has nothing intelligent to say... he proves over and over that he is a sheep with a herd like mentality.

Were I the judge at ur trial for murder I would excuse the jury and staff, have a beer or two and a laugh about it and then sneak u out the back door!!

"You're mocking me, aren't you?"

If you are serious, well, thanks for the flattery. I may not be right, but atleast someone's sees that I'm making an attempt. Now, I wonder if we can have J4U banned from CC.

Oh, extra credit if you can place that movie quote.

why should I be banned?

I stand for what I believe in.

I believe it is you who should be banned. Making DEATH threats and all.

Jesus4u

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why should I be banned?

I stand for what I believe in.

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I don't think you should be banned, merely boycotted! ;)

You don't stand up for what you believe in, however. You say you always try to respond to peoples questions but I see precious little evidence of that.

The last biblical quotation you made has been met (as usual) by several responses and you ignored all of them. Indeed, it is only a statement suggesting that you should be banned that get's a response from you.

Normally, you just make your quotation and keep quiet until you have your next quote ready. You preach at us (and I say "preach" and not "discuss" because you only engage in a oneway conversation) and then fail to understand why people get infuriated at the way you conduct yourself.

If you truly want to stand up for what you believe in, fine, engage us. But don't just throw a quote at us and then run away and hide until you've got something else to throw at us.

You are only suceeding in portraying both your religion and yourself in a bad light.

but you know what? I HAVE fully answered questions posed to me. I apologize if I can not answer them all. We all have jobs to do don't we?

Sleep's a religion....one of deep meditation.... actually, this thread is liable to make beleivers in sleep out of us all...zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz zzzzzzzzz see !

thus endeth the n'th lesson by Reverend LoveJoy-Flanders III....

and we are so gratefull, we really are.... honest...zzzzzz oops apnoea I nearly died of sheer boredom...zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

Well, I'll re-post one of my unanswered questions for the umpteenth time.

What about the dinosaurs?

Do you believe they existed or not?

According to you the bible is infallible.

Which makes the world 6-8 thousand years old.

Ice core samples from the north pole where there has been a steay winter/summer cycle can be traced back 20,000 years. Carbon dating (despite claims that it is innacurate) can prove that the dinosaurs are more than 20,000 years old as they do not match any of the Carbon decay rates in the ice core samples.

Therefore they must be older than the earth. (Not to mention th efact that the dinosaurs are not really mentioned in the bible). If you had creatures as big as houses running around eating everything in sight I think it would have warranted more than a couple of obscure quotes.

SD

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Originally posted by jesus4u
but you know what? I HAVE fully answered questions posed to me. I apologize if I can not answer them all. We all have jobs to do don't we?

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Yes, we do. But I think you are making excuses because you haven't the ability to defend yourself.

Now, I don't ever want to see you post again unless you are responding to the queue of rebutles we've posted. If you have time to post, then you have time to answer.

Jesus4u

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I HAVE fully answered questions posed to me. I apologize if I can not answer them all.

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You're having some sort of joke here? You don't answer jack s**t. You really must be living in a dream world if you really believe that you've attempted to answer even five percent of the questions posed to you.

It's funny how you don't find time to respond to people's questions but you do find time to dig out yet another quote. :rolleyes:

it's sad! You guys are truly sad :(

J4U, you are such an idiot. And I don't guess I can be surprised by the fact that you live in your little dream world, believing in your little fairy tale gods, thinking that he can do no wrong and that you are right and safe and happy.

You are in a severe form of denial, one that manifests itself in this ongoing delusion.

All that aside, I'm with Simon. I'm going to see if I can find the ignore feature. Redth, or anyone body smart enough to read, feel free to defend this vain divinity.

J4U, one day you will learn that it was man who created god in his own image. God is like Santa Clause, they both exist if you pretend they do.