That movie is a trap to make you look stupid. :DQuote:
Originally Posted by TheBigB
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That movie is a trap to make you look stupid. :DQuote:
Originally Posted by TheBigB
Well, lets see, hmm, my cousin, who I grew up with, was on the 101 Floor in Tower 2, my best friend was on the 89 Floor also in Tower 2, and a life long friend who just happened to be a NYC Police Officer made it to the 55 Floor on September 11, 201. Sadly, they all died that day. There remains have never been recovered, thier families will not have any peace until they "come Home". 9/11 to people who weren't there and/or effected, is just a tragic day to people like you. Try explaining to your children why they can't see the two most recognizable building in NYC from their bedroom window any more. Try explaining why cousin Tommy will not be coming over to play with them anymore. People like you live in a small world and things that don't effect you don't matter to you. I normally would respond to an asinine statement for the likes of you but I will make an exception for you. As for the rest of your post I really don't care about your conspiracy theories, I know what happened that day, I was there. I saw two planes hit the World Trade Center Towers.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheBigB
To put it succinctly:
You sir are mis-informed!
Quote:
Originally Posted by grilkip
G, He doesn't need any help in that department!!
Thanks for the insult.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Gambo
I know it's terrible, though I have to admit I haven't lost anyone.
I don't blame you for not getting over it.
I just don't think you should put it as an argument all the time.
And I apologize if I have hurt or insulted you.
That was not my intention.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheBigB
I am sorry that I unloaded on you but to me and my fellow New Yorkers (Democrats, Republican, Communist, Right to Life, etc), 9/11 was an attack on our sovereignty. I will fight with every ounce of strength in my body on this issue. I know throughout the ages European countries were invaded and pillaged but this hasn't happened since World War Two and most likely nobody on this forum lived through those times. People in the NYC Area lived through their version of the Crusades and World War 2, so we know what it probably was like at least for one day/night. Some people will relive that day every day for the rest of their lives.
I don't care what the dictionary says, we were attacked, people were killed, and they will do it again one day.
Whilst September 11th is a tragic occurence, I am staggered that you think you are alone on these forums as being the only person affected by violence/war/terrorism. This is a very multi-cultural site.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Gambo
Ask anyone from Britain (myself included), chances are they will know someone who has been killed in Northern Ireland. Reliving one day? Try living twenty years like that..... and what did your government do to the US voters/tax payers who funded those terrorists so that they could blow up innocent school children? ... nada, nothing, zip. So much for the war on terror. The only good thing about 9/11 is that suddenly it wasn't "cool" to be seen to be supporting terrorists and the Noraid funds dried up... and at last peace had it's chance.
Like I say, I'm very very sorry for your loss, but be under no illusions that you are somehow unique in this. Many people around the world are subject to massive pain and suffering, and alas it is a sorry fact that the US (citizens and/or government) have inflicted a lot of that pain and suffering......
First of all the I was asked and I quote "What's with you and 9/11?". I informed the poster of why I think so strongly of this event. Now where did I ever say and I quote:
because I believe I stated:Quote:
Originally Posted by SurfDemon
I don't know how you could twist what I posted into me thinking that I was the only person effected on this forum by terrorism.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Gambo
When was it ever "cool" to support Terrorists?Quote:
Originally Posted by SurfDemon
I guess you mean by crashing planes into the World Trade Center or blowing them up with explosives, right?Quote:
Originally Posted by SurfDemon
Thank you and I am sorry for any losses you may have experencedQuote:
Originally Posted by SurfDemon
Apparently in Boston it was. Lots of money for "the cause" being donated. "Every dollar donated goes towards killing a British Soldier." as they used to brag. :(Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Gambo
No, Actually, I was going for overthrowing democratically elected governments and replacing them with dictatorships... every been to Brazil lately, they're not very big fans of the US ... probably because the US aided the military junta in overthrowing the democratically elected government... around 500 people "dissapeared" and a systematic regime of rape and torture that was to last for 20 years????Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Gambo
http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB118/index.htm
And then there's US support of Pinochet's coup in chile .... 3,000 people "disappeared" in that one...
And then theres Argentina.... a familiar tale of the US backing a military coup .... and another 20,000 people "disappear" (although in fairness the previous regimes seem to have been doing the same).
It goes on and on, if you take a look at how many oppressive regimes the US has helped install over the years it would/should bring you to tears.... I haven't even touched upon the middle-east, which is really where most of this is being stirred up.
Many would see it as your chickens coming back to roost.
Sure, when you put it like that we look like real douches. But c'mon, nobody's perfect.Quote:
Originally Posted by SurfDemon
:) Be fair. I really don't think I've posted anything anti-american in this thread (I have occasionally posted anti-Americanisms in this forum but always with my tongue in my cheek). If you look back to my original post you'll see that I was quite clear that the reasons the US is hated is down to the way you are perceived rather than the way you actually are. I think you guys are probably the second greatest nation on earth :p.Quote:
You feeling ok today?
What I am anti is belicose rhetoric in place of acurate argument and that's what I took issue with your use of the word sovereignty over. I'm really funny about that sort of thing, maybe I'm a pedant, I don't know. I suspect it's rooted in my constant disillusionment with politicians who say one thing and do another. At the risk of further derailing the thread, Iraq provides a fantastic example of this. At one point my government told me that Saddam could hit the UK with a chemical attack at 20 minutes notice - it turned out his chemical weapons ability amounted to about the equivalent a post-curry case of gutrot.
I'm sorry for your loss. I really mean that. But I think you're the one who'se living in a small world. You've allowed the events of 9/11 to overcome your objectivity and that's a great shame. Statistically, you were astonishingly unlikely to have been affected by the results of that day. The problem with statistics of this nature is that some people are the statistics and, in this case, you were one of those people. It's really not surprising that you take it as personally as you do. But looking forward, the same astonishing unlikelyhood applies to you being affected by such an event in the future. If you allow the fear and hatred generated by you're closeness to the events of 9/11 to cloud your judgement and start you thinking that the world hates you because you're an American then the Bin-Laden's of this world have scored a victory that far outstrips the events of a single day.Quote:
Well, lets see, hmm, my cousin...
And I admire you for it. But make the fight an intelligent and objective one. More innocent Iraqi's and Afghanis have died in the last 7 years than died on 9/11 by far - I'd love to quote you a magnitude but can't because nobody's kept accurate figures on how many have died, let alone which were innocent. Neither do I have a comparison of American army casulaties in these 2 conflicts to the casualties in 9/11 but I'm willing to bet they've long since exceeded them (if anyone has these figures, please post them, I'd love to get a clearer picture on this). I think most people would agree that those two conflicts wouldn't have happened without 9/11. There have been no terrorist attacks on the US since 9/11 (I'm deliberately disregarding the Madrid and London bombings) but that's not because American lives are any less at risk, it's because the terrorist don't have to come to you now, you've gone to them. Sooner or later you've got to ask yourself the question, "have more lives have been lost because we took military action than would have been lost had we spent our resources on engagement, internal policing and intelligence (and how many of those lives have been American)"? If the answer to that question is yes then, objectively, we've made the wrong decision. Sure, that means losing a moral argument, but it's an argument you're winning at the expense of real peoples lives. I've allowed myself to derail the thread but I do it to make a point. If you allow a thirst for revenge to overcome your objectivity, the price you pay is almost always a higher one.Quote:
I will fight with every ounce of strength in my body on this issue.
BTW, my name's Declan. Any Brits on this forum will know just how republican Irish that name is. My Grandad (who was a staunch republican) fled Limerick (which is about as republican as it gets) and came to England (which he'd previously regarded as the enemy) because his Daughter (my Mum) fell in love with an Englishman (my Dad). Even in the depths of Kilburn he lived in serious fear of reprisals which would have included broken knee caps and possible death had some of the people who'd previously called him friend ever managed to catch up with my family. He was estranged from his familiy for over 20 years (Thankfully they reconciled before he died). I say this not to evince sympathy or add weight to my argument but, once again, to make a point. If you carry that hate and fear with you it will continue to hurt you, your family and your freinds and it won't stop hurting you until you let it go.
Sorry B but I'm with Mark on this one. I may not agree with republican foreign policy but the only conspiracies that went into 9/11 were made between between members of Al-Quaida.Quote:
Now, I would like you to take some time and give a serious look at this movie.
Hmm, I wonder which politician was doing the most talking? Teddy the swimmer. It was reprehensible act perpetrated by my favorite democrat.Quote:
Originally Posted by SurfDemon
Replies to various posts too numerous to bother quoting (sort yourselves out):
Wasn't a politician, it was fund raising groups, and it shouldn't be a surprise to you. I've been hearing about that pretty much all of my life, and you should have also. Boston was a well known fund raising area for the IRA and other groups. That's when it was "cool" to be supporting terrorists, and that's where, as well.
US troop losses in Iraq are approaching 4,000, not all combat deaths. This doesn't include contractor losses, which are not recorded, but have been estimated to be considerably higher. Thus losses in a war that was allowed because of 9/11, but not otherwise related to 9/11 are now higher than 9/11 casualty figures.
As for losses. Loved ones die before you, or you die before them. The latter is selfish, the former is hard. People turn to all kinds of places looking for answers as to why. If they were murdered, you can submerge the questions in a relentless anger against the murderer. Loss is loss. It's never easy, and it's never fun. You get to find some way to cope with it. Perhaps fury is a viable way, but it won't make good your losses. Only make sure that your anger doesn't drown your humanity.
Don't you dare trivialise this by turning it into another anti-democrat rant. Simple fact, citizens of the US, regrardless of who they where, actively funded terrorism that killed little children. Hunt those bastards down and bring them to justice or your "war on terror" is simply a sham to cover aggressive foreign policy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Gambo
I understand your personal passion and possible hatred given that you have lost some of those close to you. Like it has already been said; if you allow the personal side of it to get to you then you will not have an objective opinion, you will have a biased opinion. It doesn't matter how much you argue to the contrary, you do have a biased opinion and it shows. Thankfully I have never been unfortunate enough to loose someone close at the hands (directly or indirectly) of another so I cannot really comment on how you should feel.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Gambo
But there is a comparison here. There are countries where car bombings are a daily occurrence as are the bombing of buildings. That was the case in London during the 80's and early 90's, it is the case in Iraq now. The likelihood of another attack on America is quite low and I think that if there were going to be another, it would have happened. Like they say "where there is a will there is a way".
I have said before terrorists have been around for as long as human society and they always will. If you look back to the recent past; those people /groups who were considered terrorists usually form an agreement with government or leaders and move back into mainstream society. I by no means condone the use of fear and killing to make a point but it is most certainly a fruitful approach. 9/11 bought the subject of terrorism into the mainstream on both sides (for those who want to eradicate it and those who want to promote their cause).
I don't feel that as a nation the US has moved on from 9/11. It is still very much as sore subject and one that probably affected every US citizen if they were around that day. In the UK, we have had trouble moving on from the death of princess Diana. The bombings in 2004 a pretty much a thing of the past through :ehh:. Until nations like the US and UK take a more objective view on the problem of modern terrorism and throw aside their personal opinions the problem will get worse.
Remember that there were and are active "charities" in the US collecting funds for all manners of terrorist organizations (not just for the IRA). The US even trained the guys who flew the planes into the towers and the Pentagon. Such is the price for living in a free and open society; bad people can take advantage of a lot of the freedoms and use them for evil purposes.Quote:
Originally Posted by SurfDemon
Money has been raised in the US to kill Americans; they are still catching people today. A lot more scrutiny has been placed on a lot of these so called "charities". The IRA is still labeled as a terrorist organization by the US, any fundraising for any terrorist organization is stopped when it is discovered. I am sure there was such fundraising in the UK for the IRA as well, again in a free society such things happen.
X
Very true. However, I have never seen it so blatant as in Boston. Every so called Irish bar had someone going around with a hat. (I almost managed to put a beating into one of them - he did a runner after he got out of my grip).Quote:
Originally Posted by Xanith
I get the impression that nothing has been done to bring these people to justice. If I am wrong, then you would cheer me up immensly if you could show me some stories of these terrorism sponsors being brought to justice.
They were more celebrated than despised (though primarily they were ignored outside of the areas where they were active). I don't believe there has ever been a case even attempted against any of them.
I can't remember where I read those stories, I would have to search for them, but I do know that they are seriously clamping down on so called "charities" that raise money for terrorist organizations.Quote:
Originally Posted by SurfDemon
I do have one question for you however. You state that 9/11 was America's chickens coming home to roost, wouldnt IRA terrorism be simply English chickens coming home to roost after years of English Imperialism and occupation? It seems to me you feel different about the IRA, I was wondering why?
X
Sorry, I actually said "that some people would say that it was America's Chickens coming home to roost.", personally I feel that all acts of terrorism are dispicable, and there can be no justification. However, I am a realist and in order to fight terrorism, you have to understand what causes it. The major problem is that the people who carry out these attacks, feel fully justified in their actions. Their justification is easily understandable given the violence inacted on their familes (though not excusable). If we were to work more at removing those justifications, we cripple Al-Quidea etc. far more than bombs and troops will.Quote:
Originally Posted by Xanith
As for IRA - English Imperialism, yes, you are quite right, it is the same thing, although for the sake of Historical accuracy it wasn't just the English, the Scots and indeed other Irishmen where just as guilty. Again, not justificable, but understandable.
Given the treatment metted out to the Irish 100 years ago, the original IRA where far more widely supported by the poplace of the time. In fact because of the visible injustices, the support for the original IRA was very comparable to some of the support for middle eastern terrorists today.
The modern IRA however, are a very different group of people, more interested in drug money and control through physical intimidation of the very people they were supposedly trying to "free". Most Irish people I know (and bear in mind that I lived there for a number of years and infact am actually married to an Irish lass), think of the modern IRA as dispicable criminals/thugs. So, because of the massive drop in injustices against the Irish people the popular support for the IRA has completely vanished.
So, yes, the Old IRA would be comparable to the modern Muslim Terrorists because they have very visible injustices against them that can easily be leveraged by terrorist recruiters.
The modern IRA is a completely different kettle of fish and more comparible to the Mafia than to Muslim Terrorists.
Unfortunately the US view appears to be slightly more romantic (what was the movie where Richard Gere was a "good" Ira bomber :ehh: [googled - The Jackal], or what was the other one with Brad Pitt and Harrison Ford (again with an IRA terrorist with a heart of gold... [googled] -"Devils Own"]).
Now I realise that Hollywood is a very skewed way of looking at a countries feelings, however the fact that two IRA characters where cast in such a sympathetic light does concern me.
All I know is that no member of my family or any of my friends donated any money or support to the IRA. Teddy Kennedy and his ilk were the ones who have supported these Terrorists. Support for the IRA unfortunately had a lot of support in Boston. I in way shape or form was Trivializing the Deaths (read Murders) caused by the IRA.Quote:
Originally Posted by SurfDemon
I think you meant to say they were trained IN the US not BY the US, right.Quote:
Originally Posted by Xanith
Either that or they were trained by the US :)
I have to say im sick to the teeth of this arguement. Mark, wether you like it or not your a product of your own dysfuctional nation. I do not hate americans or america for that matter. I dont even hate bush. I disagree with some policies yes but thats it. You have no right to push americana down anyones neck.
I am more qualified than anyone to talk about this. My country was invaded and ruled by the UK for hundreds of years, in fact they still possess the northern part of the country, its even got to the stage up there that NI will have to become a country in its own right to survive long term because of the diffrence in opinion between its internal populus.
I dont go around screaming about how great my country is and hating the UK (i love you guys) although my country is a hell of alot better. for at least these reasons:
Most millionares per captia
Second largest export of technology per captia
Unarmed police force which manages to keep the peace just fine
Up to 5 goverment parties which share power meaning everyone gets a say
There is also alot wrong with my country that i will happly admit too. The fact of the matter is just because your nation is the biggest and richest does not mean we hate it. But i would rather live here than in your country as i have a hell of alot more freedoms here.
I would like to just point out im merely debating the point i have no grudge against you mark and enjoy reading the majority of your posts, i just feel that this was a subject you should have left alone!
You missed Vitamin G., the greatest invention in the history of the human race (IMHO) :thumb:Quote:
Originally Posted by CodedFire
Riboflavin did an irishman discover that? I dont think so?
Yip, otherwise known as King Arthur..... Vitamin G = Guinness, everything the body needs for a healthy life.... well, a happy one anyway :DQuote:
Originally Posted by CodedFire
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arthur_Guinness
I don't hate the United States by any means, but I do hate the fact that we try to fix other countries instead of fixing the problems we have on our own turf. Is that my selfish American attitude showing or do I feel the same as others around the world?
I think there are lot of people in other countries who wish the U.S. government agreed with you...
Just looking at your avatar is sufficient proof for anybody to dismiss you as insane, possibly criminally so.Quote:
Originally Posted by System_Error
Though actually, there could be MUCH worse. For instance, you could be a Flyers fan.
@ SurfDemon: Damn, that joke was right there, in my face, and what do i do? Go look up who discovered riboflaven!?
You just made the list buddy. :afrog:Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker
Dammit you said i could be on the list too!
If you want to be on my list, you must have severe mental or emotional problems. We should hang out. :afrog:
Of course, but I thought that was pretty self-evident. But for those who need further explanation, yes that is what I meant.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Gambo
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