Death Penalty

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by yrwyddfa

And you believe that this is possible? I am telling you, now, that it is not possible to prove guilt or innocence beyond all doubt

---

If you believe your laws or the legal system is unable to prove "any" guilt beyond doubt, don't you think you should simply get rid of the courts and let the law of the jungle rule?? ;) Tell me, what does the judicial/legal system in your country do by the way, if they can't prove the guilt of a person beyond doubt? ;)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by yrwyddfa

You have yet to define what morality is. It is enough for you to know that morality is subjective and individual; an individual can morally justify, but a state cannot.

---

Again, we are talking of legality and not morality. Tomorrow if Saddam claims he is morally right to have done whatever he is accused of having done, are you going to let him walk free because his morality allows whatever he did? No, you will judge him by "your" morality. What you have failed to understand is when you are living in a society, your sense of morality will conflict with the sense of morality of many other people. And it's in such situations that the law defines what can be accepted and what cannot be accepted.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by yrwyddfa

A court is never concerned with the morality of a persons actions only with whether a persons actions were consistent with illegal conduct.

---

A court is not supposed to be concerned with the morality of a matter. Again if Saddam were to use the morality point to defend himself, I doubt if you would want the court to grant it and let him free. He can always claim that whatever he did was right as per his morality.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by yrwyddfa

Laws are often inconsistent with morality. One that immediately comes to mind is homosexuality and Christianity (amongst other religions) Although more progressive, modern aspects of these religions accept homosexuality; a more fundamental stance is that it is a sin. Yet it is not illegal.

---

It may not be illegal in the US. Again you are only saying "it's not illegal" because the law is probably silent about it, which means it's actually not "not illegal" but open to interpretation. There are many countries where homosexuality is illegal. I have heard even oral se_ is illegal in some countries. If you are caught doing any such acts in those countries, do you think your so-called "morality stand" will bail you out of the situation? You are more likely to be prosecuted according to the local law.

.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by honeybee

Doesn't your law tell you what's right and what's wrong?
.

---

Well that's the fundamental point isn't it! You believe that it to be true, I guess, I most certainly believe it to be false.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by honeybee

If you believe your laws or the legal system is unable to prove "any" guilt beyond doubt, don't you think you should simply get rid of the courts and let the law of the jungle rule?? ;) Tell me, what does the judicial/legal system in your country do by the way, if they can't prove the guilt of a person beyond doubt? ;)

---

Utterly ridiculous and ill-informed.actus non facit reum nisi mens sit rea Look it up, and learn. Until you have (i) a confessions (nearly always unreliable) (ii) a mind-reading machine, you cannot ever be sure without a shadow of doubt. Evidence, in case you haven't realised, proves that the act happened, and it proves nothing about the state of mind.

Quote:

---

Again, we are talking of legality and not morality.

---

You're the one who has consistently claimed they're the same thing!

Quote:

---

It may not be illegal in the US. Again you are only saying "it's not illegal" because the law is probably silent about it, which means it's actually not "not illegal" but open to interpretation.

---

In the UK individuals are protected regadless of their sexuality. In the UK we have common-law which means the law is (generally) made up from thousands of years of case-history. The law in this country certainly is not silent about it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by yrwyddfa

Evidence, in case you haven't realised, proves that the act happened, and it proves nothing about the state of mind.

---

So this Makes us All Cool With Hilter. He Only Had Chemical Imbalances, Its not His Faut, in Fact he is Yrwyddfa's Official Hero, didn't you Know.

Bull, It does not matter whether you had a Stuffed up Childhood which you use as an excuse, or Self-Induced Alcohol/Drug Over-Abuse, you Did something thats Deemed Against the Law, if you Guilty Then Tough.


If Someone Forces Drugs/Alcohol on You making you do the Deed, then Different Story. Which is Why God can Only be A Judge of People, Your Creator Would Know Whats Going On In Your Body.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Codehammer

So this Makes us All Cool With Hilter. He Only Had Chemical Imbalances, Its not His Faut, in Fact he is Yrwyddfa's Official Hero, didn't you Know.

---

I don't think there's much need for that eh? You've missed the point, btw, and I suggest you google the phrase and learn a little.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Codehammer

So this Makes us All Cool With Hilter. He Only Had Chemical Imbalances, Its not His Faut, in Fact he is Yrwyddfa's Official Hero, didn't you Know.

Bull, It does not matter whether you had a Stuffed up Childhood which you use as an excuse, or Self-Induced Alcohol/Drug Over-Abuse, you Did something thats Deemed Against the Law, if you Guilty Then Tough.


If Someone Forces Drugs/Alcohol on You making you do the Deed, then Different Story. Which is Why God can Only be A Judge of People, Your Creator Would Know Whats Going On In Your Body.

---

Instead Of Capitalising Every Word But Dropping the Occasional word For No Apparent Reason, Can I Suggest That You Revert To Camel Notation . . .

yoUr woRds wiLl loOk raTher liKe thIs thEn

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by yrwyddfa

Instead Of Capitalising Every Word But Dropping the Occasional word For No Apparent Reason, Can I Suggest That You Revert To Camel Notation . . .

yoUr woRds wiLl loOk raTher liKe thIs thEn

---

tOGGLE cASE
lowercase
UPPERCASE
Sentence Case

Is Camel Notation the Third Letter Only Thats Capped?

Quote:

---

People Don't Understand, If Its on Paper You'll Differentiate a Handwriting, But How Do You Differentiate on Computer Where You All Have the Same Fonts?

---

Well Theres Politics in this Place...
I Noticed the Other Politics/Religion Thread is Locked for Me, Wonder Why? Thought this Would Lock First Though. Then My Post at the How'd You Find VBForums was Removed, Or I Just Couldnt Find It.

So Before Some **** Admin Decides to Abuse More Power, I Ask, What Do you Think Of The Attachement Flash Video Yrwyddfa?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Codehammer

Well Theres Politics in this Place...
I Noticed the Other Politics/Religion Thread is Locked for Me, Wonder Why? Thought this Would Lock First Though. Then My Post at the How'd You Find VBForums was Removed, Or I Just Couldnt Find It.

So Before Some **** Admin Decides to Abuse More Power, I Ask, What Do you Think Of The Attachement Flash Video Yrwyddfa?

---

I don't understand how you can be so think-skinned. You bleat about Hitler beimng my hero and how all drug/alcohol abusers deserve to get what's coming to them as a response to the latin foundation of all common-law. I question it, you then ignore it, move on, and ask me if I liked the video you posted.

Forget it, mate, consider yourself ignored.

Quote:

---

I don't understand how you can be so think-skinned. You bleat about Hitler being my hero and how all drug/alcohol abusers deserve to get what's coming to them as a response to the latin foundation of all common-law.

---

I really dont have anything Else to say about politics, The law has its roots in religion, and its worked all along even though no states Followed the Divine Justice system.
Its Still semi worked until now, but now we are changing the law for the wrong reasons eg. the gays marriage/partnership. There isnt one state in the world that follows Gods Law and justice system, people openly acted their vices, the wernt persecuted, but now that we change the law and start to accept their sins, well, expect more Katrina's and Tsunamis.

If there ever was a Following of God's Law throughout, then you would not find the problems that exist today. People would still Sin, but we wouldnt get this Out-Of-control Situation.

Quote:

---

I question it, you then ignore it, move on, and ask me if I liked the video you posted.
Forget it, mate, consider yourself ignored.

---

If you read what I Wrote, I'm on a Flag List of Someone, My Posts Deleted, I Cant Access Certain Pages, You wanna Get Me into more S*-*T*. Plus I didnt Figure You Questioned Me Specifically.

I Like Reading, Without Explaining in Detail, Why Would I Wanna Google That Stuff You Mentioned?

Quote:

---

If you believe your laws or the legal system is unable to prove "any" guilt beyond doubt, don't you think you should simply get rid of the courts and let the law of the jungle rule?? Tell me, what does the judicial/legal system in your country do by the way, if they can't prove the guilt of a person beyond doubt?

---

What we do is we say that on the weight of evidence a person is deemed to be guilty beyond reasonable doubt. Not guilty full stop. We realise that there has to be a judgement call and we leave it to people called judges, or juries, to make that call. They may be wrong. They acknowledge that the call was made with the best evidence available at the time, and that sometimes they may be wrong. But we hope that if they are, then we haven't been executed in the meantime and can be released with some fairly hefty compensation.

Good riddance to a murdering thug, Tookie Williams
http://www.salon.com/news/feature/20.../index_np.html

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Codehammer

Well Theres Politics in this Place...
I Noticed the Other Politics/Religion Thread is Locked for Me, Wonder Why? Thought this Would Lock First Though. Then My Post at the How'd You Find VBForums was Removed, Or I Just Couldnt Find It.

---

Your post in the "How did you find VBForums" thread was a plain candidate for deletion (although I can't remember exactly what it was).

it was funny??, some link that advertised vbforums, PM me the Abrupt Part.

I can't believe i wasted a part of my life reading through some of these comments. This fits right in there with the JFK conspiracy, and the "Fake" Moon Landing. :(

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by yrwyddfa

You bleat about Hitler beimng my hero and how all drug/alcohol abusers deserve to get what's coming to them as a response to the latin foundation of all common-law.

---

That bleat'n was suppose to get to to get to to rethink this post of yours:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by yrwyddfa

Evidence, in case you haven't realised, proves that the act happened, and it proves nothing about the state of mind.

---

Dont you think Hitler is guilty, regardless of whats in his head?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Codehammer

Dont you think Hitler is guilty, regardless of whats in his head?

---

Hitler's actus reum were a directly result of his mens rea so any common-law court could easily convict him. His mens rea was (and is) well documented.

?, Better Read that Suff Up Then, Give the Links You Went Through, as Then we're on the Same Page.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Codehammer

?, Better Read that Suff Up Then, Give the Links You Went Through, as Then we're on the Same Page.

---

[deleted]

:lol:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Codehammer

Well Theres Politics in this Place...
I Noticed the Other Politics/Religion Thread is Locked for Me, Wonder Why? Thought this Would Lock First Though. Then My Post at the How'd You Find VBForums was Removed, Or I Just Couldnt Find It.

So Before Some **** Admin Decides to Abuse More Power, I Ask, What Do you Think Of The Attachement Flash Video Yrwyddfa?

---

There's a thread that is locked to you alone? I didn't think that was possible. If the whole thread is locked, then tha's fine. I don't know who gets to do that, but it would apply to everybody. Some discussions can reasonably go away.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asi...ic/4711208.stm

:eek:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by yrwyddfa

I think I stand alone as the only person (on this forum) who has worked directly with the convicted offenders within the UK Prison System (NOMS)

I think that all your posturing is absolute nonsense: the vast majority of these people have real problems, and real needs.

It's a shame that the pigeon hole fits all too well to the middle-class, morally adjusted classes.

It's a shame on the lot of you.

---

You are right that all people have real problems. I know several people who got raped, marched out to a field naked in the middle of Kansas winter, and shot by a couple of real people with real problems -- one just out on parole. I have considerably less simpathy for them than for the dead people.

Personally, I have no trouble locking those guys up in British prisons at British expense for the rest of their lives. However, I do not want to pay for their food and shelter or to have them out where they can find my wife, my sister, my child, or my friend. Execution is the most effective means of enforcing morality on those guys.

I am not posturing, and anyone who thinks there is anything wrong with "middle-class, morally adjusted classes" is probably bent with self-loathing. How can you think so poorly of yourself and the behavioral system that allows you and me the privilege of our jobs and freedoms?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by PineyWoodsJimbo

You are right that all people have real problems. I know several people who got raped, marched out to a field naked in the middle of Kansas winter, and shot by a couple of real people with real problems -- one just out on parole. I have considerably less simpathy for them than for the dead people.

Personally, I have no trouble locking those guys up in British prisons at British expense for the rest of their lives. However, I do not want to pay for their food and shelter or to have them out where they can find my wife, my sister, my child, or my friend. Execution is the most effective means of enforcing morality on those guys.

I am not posturing, and anyone who thinks there is anything wrong with "middle-class, morally adjusted classes" is probably bent with self-loathing. How can you think so poorly of yourself and the behavioral system that allows you and me the privilege of our jobs and freedoms?

---

My sympathies . . . :(

I mentioned the vast majority. That does not include everyone. I was also speaking from a UK perspective - I mentioned NOMS, for example - and it is the sad fact that the UK lock up far too many people.

Although I stand by my beliefs in the death penalty, please accept my apologies for not making this more clear.

The US locks up far to many people as well. The vast majority of them should be executed immediately following their trials and convictions. Two girls I knew were raped and thrown off a bridge into the Mississippi river (edit) 14 years ago. One of the three killers was executed in October of '05. The second copped a 30 year plea deal, the third had his death sentence commuted to life. I get to pay for these two wastes of flesh to get three hots and a cot.

Kid I went to grade school and high school with was stabbed in the throat multiple times on a Greyhound bus because he didn't give the killer a cigarette. That was 20 years ago. Still paying to house that sack of crap.

Sisters friend was shot in the head several times in a mafia hit on her boyfriend. Those guys are walking the streets somewhere.

Kill em all? Hell yes. Treatment and coddling amounts to absolutely nothing.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by demotivater

The US locks up far to many people as well. The vast majority of them should be executed immediately following their trials and convictions. Two girls I knew were raped and thrown off a bridge into the Mississippi river 24 years ago. One of the three killers was executed in October of '05. The second copped a 30 year plea deal, the third had his death sentence commuted to life. I get to pay for these two wastes of flesh to get three hots and a cot.

Kid I went to grade school and high school with was stabbed in the throat multiple times on a Greyhound bus because he didn't give the killer a cigarette. That was 20 years ago. Still paying to house that sack of crap.

Sisters friend was shot in the head several times in a mafia hit on her boyfriend. Those guys are walking the streets somewhere.

Kill em all? Hell yes. Treatment and coddling amounts to absolutely nothing.

---

My opinion? Violent intentional crimes => heavy punishment, no parole EVER.

Non-violent crimes (vice crimes, drug possession, even drug dealing if no one got hurt), = frequent paroles, minimal sentences, more drug-treatment and job training, ability to wipe it from your record after several years so you can actually find a new job.

Well, I don't know of any drug dealers in the US or UK that were ever sentenced to death.

I believe as was stated earlier, in the US anyway, Murder One (premeditated) is the only crime besides possibly treason (not that anyone in the last century was given death for that) that would warrant the possiblity of execution.

I agree with Piney, there's just no sense in fiscally burdening good citizens with keeping a murdering criminal alive if they're sentence mandates a life sentence anyway. And there are quite a few on death row show no remorse for their crimes.

Granted the recent execution in California was a reformed individual supposedly - but that doesn't erase the fact he took many innocent lives in his youth.

Quote:

---

The second copped a 30 year plea deal, the third had his death sentence commuted to life. I get to pay for these two wastes of flesh to get three hots and a cot.

---

They should live but have to do real physical labour. wouldnt you prefer them to have a life of torcher than a painless injection

if a criminal is no risk and they havnt repeate offende they should do community service

if they are a risk they should get harsh punishment working every day in prison factories getting the minimal food and total isolation from others. That would put people off crime and that way they pay for there own keep (could do the economy some good)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by big blue alien

if they are a risk they should get harsh punishment working every day in prison factories getting the minimal food and total isolation from others. That would put people off crime and that way they pay for there own keep (could do the economy some good)

---

Prison labor camps do not work. Problem is, the labor camps get contracts and have to fufill them. If they do not have enough prisoners to meet the contracts they are only left with one choice, get more prisoners. Judges are paid off to send more men to prison camps and innocent or undeserving people end up in them just to keep the prisons funded and in busisness. That is why It is illegal in the united states now.

Quote:

---

That is why It is illegal in the united states now.

---

I'm sure i saw something on TV about a prison in the US were they still had rock breaking chaingangs. i think it was called tent city because they all had to live in tents

Quote:

---

Arpaio insists that jails shouldn’t be country clubs and to prove his point he has created America's largest ‘canvas incarceration compound’ or Tent City as it has become known. Over 2,000 convicted inmates serve their sentences under canvas in temperatures that can reach 130 degrees. They have highly restricted access to televisions and smoking; coffee and pornography are completely banned. He spends less money on feeding his inmates than on the dogs that patrol them. And he only spends 20 cents (11p) on the dogs. To add to the humiliation, all inmates have to wear black and white striped uniforms and pink underwear.

---

Quote:

---

Sheriff Arpaio has also created the world’s first female chain gang, who work six days a week cleaning streets, painting over graffiti and burying the poor in the county cemetery.

---

:lol: thats how it should be

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by big blue alien

I'm sure i saw something on TV about a prison in the US were they still had rock breaking chaingangs. i think it was called tent city because they all had to live in tents

---

It is possible it was a county prison and probably voluntary. Meaning the inmates chose to serve their time there, most likley in exchange for a shorter sentance. I know that all the ones around here have been closed.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by big blue alien

if a criminal is no risk and they havnt repeate offende they should do community service

---

No criminal is a risk until he shoots you in the face. As far as community service - you can have them in your community, I certainly wouldn't want them in mine. The dead can't repeat offend.

what i mean is there's no point in putting someone in prison for something like theft because it costs money to keep them there, better to have them repay the dammage in the community and their not likely to harm anyone. if they keep breaking the law though then they have to be taught a proper lesson

If however when he's being arrested he turns round and hits someone then he's too violent to stay on the streets.

people can go to prison for not paying taxes, whats the point in that?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by big blue alien

people can go to prison for not paying taxes, whats the point in that?

---

It makes sure people pay their taxes. If all it meant was community service I damn sure wouldn't pay mine either.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MasterBlaster

It makes sure people pay their taxes. If all it meant was community service I damn sure wouldn't pay mine either.

---

How about if the penalty cost you more than the taxes, would you pay then? For instance, suppose you made $2,000 a month, and for some reason you owed $10,000 in a year. If you were given a $10,000 fine, and two months of community service, you would be far better off paying the taxes, even if you did no actual work in the community service part.

Dosdoevsky wrote: "A society should be judged not by how it treats its outstanding citizens, but by how it treats its criminals". I agree with him.

To my mind if you can rehabilitate someone you should because it adds one more useful person to society and that makes us all richer. Of course, you often won't be able to, but executing them closes the door on that option forever.

And before you advocate the death penalty for anyone ask yourself this: "Am I really just motivated by revenge?". If the answers yes then dig 2 graves, the second being for a part of your soul. Foregiveness, as they say, is the greatest virtue.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker

How about if the penalty cost you more than the taxes, would you pay then? For instance, suppose you made $2,000 a month, and for some reason you owed $10,000 in a year. If you were given a $10,000 fine, and two months of community service, you would be far better off paying the taxes, even if you did no actual work in the community service part.

---

I wouldn't pay the fine right away. Giving me more time to turn my $10,000 into $25,000. So all it will cost is 2 months community service, $1000 for an attorney to push the case long enough to make a profit, and 10,000 that I owed anyway. that still leaves me with 10,000 tax free money, not counting the additional tax I'll have to pay on the interest made on my original tax money that I'm not going to pay any way. :bigyello:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MasterBlaster

I wouldn't pay the fine right away. Giving me more time to turn my $10,000 into $25,000. So all it will cost is 2 months community service, $1000 for an attorney to push the case long enough to make a profit, and 10,000 that I owed anyway. that still leaves me with 10,000 tax free money, not counting the additional tax I'll have to pay on the interest made on my original tax money that I'm not going to pay any way. :bigyello:

---

Now, back to the real world......

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker

Now, back to the real world......

---

Like I said, that's why they send you to jail for not paying taxes.