How do the US expect to win support when they do stuff like this ?

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Originally posted by honeybee
I don't even want to get into a debate on issues such as Kashmir with someone who uses Google to form his/her opinions. Study the books on Indian freedom struggle, and then you will get some idea of the British politics which came into play during the liberation of India, what led to the creation of Pakistan and how Kashmir became a debatable issue.

I don't even hope you will ever get to learn about what are the issues, because you are simply blinded by your own country's so-called righteousness. Just remember that although Kashmir is an issue today, that's a parting gift from your ally in the Iraq war, and that India has not resorted to war for solving the Kashmir issue. I don't even expect you to understand the significance of it.

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Ohhh wait its OK for India to torture and kill innocent civilians because Pakistan invaded them in the past? What a crock. There is countless documentation from well-respected human rights organizations about India and their atrocities in Kashmir. How can you back wholesale murder and torture of innocents inside of Kashmir by your government and then in the same breath criticize the US. You’re a hypocrite of the worst degree.

X

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Originally posted by honeybee
You see, there's something called "patriotism" and "somebody's own business" of which you don't seem to know anything.

Just like you defend your president's decisions in front of others, whether they are good or bad, the Iraqis don't want you to help them get rid of Saddam.

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I live in a country when I have access to any press information across the globe and I am able to make up my own mind about things. The Iraqi people only have the Saddam show running 24-7 to form their opinions. I think if the Iraqi people had more access to the free press they might form a different opinion.

X

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Originally posted by Xanith
Ohhh wait its OK for India to torture and kill innocent civilians because Pakistan invaded them in the past? What a crock. There is countless documentation from well-respected human rights organizations about India and their atrocities in Kashmir. How can you back wholesale murder and torture of innocents inside of Kashmir by your government and then in the same breath criticize the US. You’re a hypocrite of the worst degree.

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You prove my conclusion that you are ignorant of many things. As I said, get your details right, read a few books on the subject, if you can, and then talk about Kashmir.

You have not observed anywhere that I have avoided criticizing Pakistan, our sworn enemy, over Kashmir and other issues as consistently as you people seem to be doing with Iraq. Know what's the reason? Because I believe the coin has two sides, and I choose to see the other side before I decide about the coin.

When you learn that, you can debate with me.

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Originally posted by honeybee
It's YOU who doesn't seem to be following what you are talking.

Gulf war was authorized by the UN. So if this war is a continuation of the Gulf War, it must be authorized by the UN alone, and not unilaterally by the US.

As simple as that. Or maybe not for some ...

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Hey if the UN can't back up their own resolutions they passed someone has to right?

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Originally posted by Xanith
I live in a country when I have access to any press information across the globe and I am able to make up my own mind about things. The Iraqi people only have the Saddam show running 24-7 to form their opinions. I think if the Iraqi people had more access to the free press they might form a different opinion.

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You should learn that there's a world outside press.

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Ok on the news they have just found proof that Saddam is ready to use chemical weapons.

Are Bush and blair braodcasting the exicution of Iraqi soldiers on TV.... NO

Every one is harping on about the market getting bombed and the 14 dead people, I agree that it is harsh but no ones is sure where the rockets came from for all we know Saddam could have done it as part of his propaganda!! how many people where killed by iraqi forces when the when they tried to bring down saddam and are the US and UK forces using innocents as shield in fire fights.

All in all the war is already on all we can do know is give our support to the poor guys that are out there fighting, and hope that they make it back safe and it is all over soon.

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Originally posted by Xanith
Hey if the UN can't back up their own resolutions they passed someone has to right?

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There goes your arrogance. It's the UN's business what to do with its resolutions, not yours.

It's like I see my neighbour beating his wife, I complain to the police, but they don't seem to be effective, so the next day I beat the shi t out of my neighbour.

It's "Illegal", it's called "taking the law in your own hand".

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Originally posted by honeybee
You prove my conclusion that you are ignorant of many things. As I said, get your details right, read a few books on the subject, if you can, and then talk about Kashmir.

You have not observed anywhere that I have avoided criticizing Pakistan, our sworn enemy, over Kashmir and other issues as consistently as you people seem to be doing with Iraq. Know what's the reason? Because I believe the coin has two sides, and I choose to see the other side before I decide about the coin.

When you learn that, you can debate with me.

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I just want to know if you support your governments position inside of Kashmir. That will tell me everything I need to know about you.

And you seem to be ignorant of the fact of human rights violations by your government. How can you discount all of the confirmed reports from human rights organizations? You want me to pick up a history book and read about India and their conflict over Kashmir and their break away from England when innocent civilians die each day in Kashmir because of your government? And I have read about this but how does that explain and justify the torture and deaths of innocent civilians inside Kashmir committed by your government?

X

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Originally posted by Mage
Ok on the news they have just found proof that Saddam is ready to use chemical weapons.

Are Bush and blair braodcasting the exicution of Iraqi soldiers on TV.... NO

Every one is harping on about the market getting bombed and the 14 dead people, I agree that it is harsh but no ones is sure where the rockets came from for all we know Saddam could have done it as part of his propaganda!! how many people where killed by iraqi forces when the when they tried to bring down saddam and are the US and UK forces using innocents as shield in fire fights.

All in all the war is already on all we can do know is give our support to the poor guys that are out there fighting, and hope that they make it back safe and it is all over soon.

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Fine, if you are in doubt over whose missile it was, just say it could be either this way or that way and keep quiet. You shouldn't keep saying "Yeah, accidents do happen" and things like that.

As for how many Iraqis were killed by Saddam to suppress the riots, I think that's an internal matter to Iraq, and Uncle Sam should keep his long nose out of it. I don't think the US attacked China after students were killed in Tienanmen square. Perhaps China is too mighty for them.....

I have absolutely no problems with the US troops fighting the war. They have got a job to do, however unpleasant, and I don't hold them responsible for these accidents. It's the US government that I hold responsible for all these deaths, because it's their fault the war is on.

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Originally posted by honeybee
There goes your arrogance. It's the UN's business what to do with its resolutions, not yours.

It's like I see my neighbour beating his wife, I complain to the police, but they don't seem to be effective, so the next day I beat the shi t out of my neighbour.

It's "Illegal", it's called "taking the law in your own hand".

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Wrong.

If you read the resolutions and what they actually say this war is perfectly legal and is sanctioned by the UN.

It really is that simple. Sorry I don’t buy your weak analogy.

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Originally posted by Xanith
I just want to know if you support your governments position inside of Kashmir. That will tell me everything I need to know about you.

And you seem to be ignorant of the fact of human rights violations by your government. How can you discount all of the confirmed reports from human rights organizations? You want me to pick up a history book and read about India and their conflict over Kashmir and their break away from England when innocent civilians die each day in Kashmir because of your government? And I have read about this but how does that explain and justify the torture and deaths of innocent civilians inside Kashmir committed by your government?

X

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If you are so adamant on the human rights violation, do me a favour and also find out the incidents reported from the US and the UK and the other countries, and tell me what you think of those reports.

As far as Kashmir is concerned, take a break, read some books, get some information and then talk to me. I think I have repeated it enough times for you to understand.

Breaking away from England is your choice, I didn't suggest you to do it. However I was merely reminding you that it's the Western world which has created most of these problems in the first place. History of the last couple of centuries will teach you that, if there's any history thing in your country.

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Originally posted by Xanith
Wrong.

If you read the resolutions and what they actually say this war is perfectly legal and is sanctioned by the UN.

It really is that simple. Sorry I don’t buy your weak analogy.

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I don't think the UN has sanctioned THIS particular war. I think this point is fairly established. Sorry you don't understand it :rolleyes:

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But it is not illegal!!!!!!!!!!! You kid yourselves


Everytime Kashmir has been brought up you dismiss it without true reason i wonder why.

double standards maybe ;) ;) ;) :D :D :D

You sound so certain that America has no proof yet what they put in front of you is quickly dismissed. You dont want America to be so 'Powerful' so you try to kick them down its as simple as that :) :)

oh and I repeat for the zillionth time 40 + countries make up this coalition so stop calling it America's war as though they are alone and running amok :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

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Originally posted by BodwadUK
But it is not illegal!!!!!!!!!!! You kid yourselves


Everytime Kashmir has been brought up you dismiss it without true reason i wonder why.

double standards maybe ;) ;) ;) :D :D :D

You sound so certain that America has no proof yet what they put in front of you is quickly dismissed. You dont want America to be so 'Powerful' so you try to kick them down its as simple as that :) :)

oh and I repeat for the zillionth time 40 + countries make up this coalition so stop calling it America's war as though they are alone and running amok :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

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If the US did really have any evidence, it would have risked a vote much earlier. Then if the majority of the UNSC nations had voted in favour, it would at least have had a "moral majority" despite any vetoes. That would have lent some credibility to a war. But the evidence was so thin, the president was busy buying support for war from all those insignificant nations which couldn't care either ways about Iraq but couldn't risk hurting the US.

Read out the nations in that 40-nation coalition please, that would be interesting to see.... I hear Soloman Islands was included at the last moment and finally it has officially said it's not part of the coalition, and one other nation initially in the co-alition has been dropped without any explanations later.

The only countries who have sent the troops in Iraq are the US, UK and Australia. The only nations paying for the war are the US and the UK. The rest are merely lending their "moral" or "political" support. I wonder why you still call it a coalition war :rolleyes:

The simple fact that it was a UN authorized war in 1991 and it's a UN-unauthorized war now makes it illegal. Add to that the fact that Iraq simply isn't any kind of threat to the US, so the self-defence argument is cut short there. Whatever is left is probably too ugly to accept.

I have said it earlier and I don't mind saying it now, that if WMDs are indeed found in Iraq, I am ready to swallow some of my statements about that part of war. So there's no question of any double standards. And as far as Kashmir is concerned, it's completely different than the US-Iraq conflict or any other conflict the US has poked its nose in. Therefore I don't want to waste my energy with ignorant and arrogant twats discussing it.

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OUCH :D :D :D :D


Its still a coalition!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:) :) :)


40+ countries support it what part of that dont you understand, doesnt mean millitary support :) :) :)


UN is not the law and does have flaws.

I have also heard of Polish special forces being in there ;) ;)

The war in the west of Iraq is fought mainly by special forces and contains many countries special forces so your statment isnt strictly true :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:


Legally speaking that war in 1991 never ended!!!!

While we are on the topic of Kashmir, I had read an article somewhere on the Internet a month ago. Don't remember from where but I had saved it to my desktop. Here it is:

A Kashmiri Muslim Woman Talks About Pakistan
Author: Mrs Hamida Shah



I am an aware, Muslim Kashmiri woman and a responsible member of society. My husband, also a Muslim Kashmiri, is an army officer and one among the best in our army. Since I am a commoner, I am sure my comments would be taken as impartial and devoid of rhetoric.

It is rather unfortunate to witness the steady and gradual degeneration of Pakistan over the decades sinking into the abysmal cesspool of India-baiting. One had expected a lot from the rapproachement which appeared imminent during the Lahore Declaration days in 1999. However, that great leap forward was soon swallowed by the Kargil intrusions and subsequent increase in cross border terrorism. Presently, Pakistan is just short of being declared a terrorist state, a centre of narcotics smuggling and home for wild eyed muslim fundamentalists. What amazes me is the shamelessness of the whole situation which Pakistan has itself landed in. This reminds me of the famous couplet by Mirza Ghalib, "KIS KE GHAR JAYEGI BALLA MERE BAD" (God knows whose home is going to be the next victim).

Since its creation, Pakistan, has tried to become the self-styled guardian of all Muslims in the sub-continent, which at the outset has been a flawed assumption. Although ever since 1947, in one form or the other, Pakistan has made sneak attempts at such portrayal, the first major signs of it manifested during the late Zulfikar Ali Bhutto's Premiership, when he hosted the first Islamic Summit in Islamabad in 1974; a brilliant piece of tatesmanship and world-class diplomacy by the astute Bhutto, even when the nation was still gathering itself from the defeat and genocide of fellow Muslims in the then East Pakistan( now Bangladesh). During that summit, Mr Bhutto was much restrained in voicing his so called concern for Kashmir as in fact he had earlier accepted the Cease Fire Line in Jammu and Kashmir to be the Line of Control and subsequently to be recognized/adopted as the boundary between the two countries. But subsequent rulers like the shark-eyed General Zia-ul-Haq and now General Parvez Musharaf chose to throw caution to the winds and voice their crocodile concerns over the plight of Muslims in the whole of India, perceived human rights abuses against them and so called liberation of Kashmir through the barrel of the gun; in the bargain accumulating the collective responsibility of massacre and mayhem, disorder and disruption, desecration and degeneration by employing ercenaries like Afghan hordes, Sudanese bushmen and Pakistani marauders. Their latest action has been the sabotaging the of the peace initiatives in J&K. As someone has rightly said, "BADSHAH DUNIYA KE MHORE HAIN MERI SHATRANJ KE, DILLAGI KI CHAAL HAI SAB RANG SULAH JANG KE" (Pawns are kings of this world of my game, these ceasefires and negotiations are but frivolities of my heart).

Let me discuss the two issues about which Pakistan has been kicking up such a shindy: Kashmir and the plight of Muslims in India. First Kashmir; ever since partition, Pakistan has been a constant source of trouble in Kashmir. It is well known that Pakistan has no love for Kashmiris as their so called co-religionists. The necessity is a geo- political one. It has been a great travesty of destiny that one third of the Valley came under Pakistan control and remained so ever since. That part rightfully belongs to India and is the only unresolved issue between the two countries. Imagine a Pakistan without the POK (Pakistan Occupied Kashmir); no strategic access to China and Central Asia, no Siachin and no Karakoram. Second, the so-called pilght of Kashmiris; a Kashmiri Muslim is as divergent and as far removed from, say, a Pakistani Punjabi or Sindhi Muslim as a German from a Pole (and the pun is intended). It has been the misfortune of Kashmiris and one of the greatest cruelties of history that invaders had to enter India through these parts, thus leaving a stamp of eternal conflict and chaos.

Kashmir is no pocket borough of Pakistan and Kashmiris no pawns on Pakistan's political chess board. They are a proud, ancient and most cultured community in the sub-continent; be they Hindus or Muslims. It has been the short-sightedness on the part of our leadership that we did not wrest POK from Pakistan soon after that country invaded the valley in 1947.

Now for the plight of Muslims in India; to a very large extent Pakistan is responsible for the ghetto-like existence of Muslims in India. It is Pakistan who has been constantly reminding Muslims in India, through poisonous propaganda, that they are Muslims first and Indians later. The Muslim community has long realised these designs. Muslims are Indians, as much Indian as are believers of any other religion, as much Indian as George Habbash is a Palestinian, as much Indian as Boutros Ghali is an Egyptian or a Tariq Aziz is an Iraqi. Muslims in India are not rented, they have their own distinct identity and pride and belong to the soil. They don't require a certificate from an Ishaq Khan, who played dirty with all his benefactors-a tenet absolutely un- Islamic; or a Zia-ul-Haq who trampled the Constitution he had sworn to defend- an offence punishable by death in Islam-and yet went scot-free, and flogged his nation for ten long years, thus revealing the most ugly face of the faith ; or from General Pervez Musharaf, who is yet to exchange his kneepants for long trousers in the field of international politics.

On the contrary, Pakistan junta should turn a page or two in the history of Independent India and they would find that Muslims in India are Abdul Hamids, Brig Usmans, Idris Latifs or Abdul Kalams or my father-in-law, a Second World War veteran, a freedom fighter and a pious Muslim who was assassinated in cold blood by an ISI-hired Afghan mercenary in July 1992 while offering afternoon prayers. Indian Muslims and Kashmiris in particular do not require to be authenticated by Pakistan. It is therefore, time that the present leadership in Pakistan woke up to the realities and considered accommodation instead of confrontation.

The court of history will judge Pakistanis harshly in case they fail in their duties of nation-building and instead become the instruments of their own destruction, thus perthaps living up to their late Prime Minister's prophecy when just a day prior to commencement of the 1971 war, the fierce Zulfikar Ali Bhutto rose like the legandary Roman General Cassius Gaius in the Security Council facing Indian Foreign Minister Sardar Swaran Singh and said, "Believe me, Mr Foreign Minister, this is the lesson of history from the beginning of time......what belongs to a people will go to that people". By this corollary then, Sind should go to the Sindhis, Punjab to the Punjabis, Baluchistan to Baluchis and NWFP to the Pathans so on. There ought to be a limit to trouble- making. "The malice of the wicked" may have got reinforced by the weakness of the virtuous"; but no more. We shall pray that Pakistanis see the light and leave India's Kashmiris to their own destiny which is secure in Secular India. One can`t help recalling legendary Faiz Ahmed Faiz,

"HAZR KARO MERE TUN SE YEH SIM KA DARYA HAI, HAZR KARO KI MERA TUN WHO CHOB-E-SEHRA HAI, JISE JALAO TO SAHAN CHAMAN MEIN DEHKINGE" (Beware of me for my body is a river of poison. Stay away from me for my body is a parched log in the desert. If you burn it, you won`t see the cypress or the jasmine, But my bones blossoming like thorns on the cactus)".

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Originally posted by honeybee
You should learn that there's a world outside press.

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And where do you get all your knowledge about the subjects that you have formed your opinions on?

Is the Sky News, or any of those indian News sources you are always quoting not a part of the world press? Is that jouranlist(I think that's what you meant when you refered to journo in a prior post) that seems to be feeding you information not apart of the world press? What do you form your opinions from being in the middle of the action and sit in's on the UN Meetings??

I've been reading these war threads for the past 2-3 weeks and you, HB, are the most hypocritcal person. Don't say I'm against all anti_war people because alot of the people on this board have given me many things to consider, both for and against this war. Plendarj, while greatly against any war, at least is true to his word and is not hypocritcal like yourself. you make me sick !:mad:

OUCH!!!!


Is this the point that we kick HB while he is down?????
:D :D :D :D

To get back to an earlier part of this thread:

I find it humorous that a bunch of programmers are arguing about missile guidance. Some suggest smoke, others suggest jamming, etc.

When the military spokesman said "Pick a window.", maybe he wasn't talking about targeting, but about operating system. GPF, baybeee!

We all work in tech fields. Does anybody believe that the failure rate on a cruise missile is 0%? They will go astray at some rate, that's money in the bank!

Most of the people in this forum know this, why do we even wonder what happened?

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Originally posted by BodwadUK
OUCH!!!!


Is this the point that we kick HB while he is down?????
:D :D :D :D

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Ouch! That's against the rules of war to kick your opponent when he's down!!

:D

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Most of the people in this forum know this, why do we even wonder what happened?

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Thats not what the American government says. To be honest we wont know until an investigation is carried out but claims have been made that the air defense minister for Saddam has been sacked over the incident, make of it as you will!!! :) :) :)

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Ouch! That's against the rules of war to kick your opponent when he's down!!

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But i like Saddams rules of engagment, find somebody i dont like and gas them!!!!!!:D :D :D

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Originally posted by BodwadUK
But i like Saddams rules of engagment, find somebody i dont like and gas them!!!!!!:D :D :D

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I like Bush's rule: If you cannot fu ck around with your country, because it's already been fu cked by a lot of other factors, just use another country for it.

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I Cant see how America's Fu**** up!!!!! :mad: :mad: :mad:


America seems a nice place in contrast to Iraq so again your argument is made of bull**it:D :D :D :D :D

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Originally posted by Shaggy Hiker
Does anybody believe that the failure rate on a cruise missile is 0%? They will go astray at some rate, that's money in the bank!

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Its exactly the same as when someone pointed the problem of the US aircraft crashing. They fly thousands of missions. and that sort of thing only happens 5 or so times?

Same thing applies with Cruise missiles. ;)

agree with u all.
yes.GWB and such that r ridiculus.