Why such an effort to prove the Bible wrong?

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Jul 18th, 2000, 10:28 PM
Gen-X

wwjd

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So... if the chance comes to 1... where did all those stars you counted come from? Nowhere?

The product of the big bang. As gravity is a law matter will always attempt to clump together to form a perfect sphere and as the most abundant element in our universe is Hydrogen it would stand to reason that stars would form as a result of gravity acting upon Hydrogen.

If some scientific postulations are correct (these are just as valid as those opposing it) then the universe has been a continual cycle of bang/crunch/bang/crunch So this collection of matter ALWAYS existed.

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And say the universe isn't a closed system... then it would still require a source of energy (God) to keep things in motion

I just realised something....

Your statement about the 2nd law of thermodynamics doesn't apply here. Those laws discuss about the expenditure of energy from a closed system. Energy is converted and released from the system. We are talking about the universe which is NOT a closed system in the sense that energy is never released "outside" of it and thus the overall energy of the universe never changes.

Don't forget we are talking about a universe that is potentially both infinate and finate at the same time, the collection of mass that is the universe is a 3-dimensional convexation of what we call time/space such that it is both closed but also infinate.

As energy is NEVER destroyed it simply changes form, be that heat, light or something else.

We eat animals, animals ate plants, plants drew energy from the sun. Everything is a transition of energy... nothing lost and nothing gained.

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All I can say is that I thought the exact same way most of you do before I was saved

And all I can say is that I thought the same way you do before I woke up and opened my eyes.

Whats the difference?

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I could go on and on. If you want more proof start by looking at the millions of lives changed by the Gospel of Jesus Christ and the power of God

Should I include the millions of lives LOST as a result of things like the crusades? The Inquisition? And many other genocidal retributions done in the name of the SAME God?

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Some accept it, and some never will

I will never accept I am an "apple"... that doesn't mean I am not being openminded... it means there are some things that just simply are not true.

As for you saying "accept it", that means it was a conscious choice for you to accept that as a possiblity. That makes it "subjective" and as a result you believe because you have already made that choice.

Therefor it doesn't mean God exists, or that you have "seen the light"... it simply means your acceptance has solidified itself for no other reason than you choice to believe.

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The beauty of it all is that I do not have to defend God

Yet people such as yourself do so every single change you get... like some obsessive compulsive disorder where you just have to pipe up with some verse out of a 2000 year old book you cannot even confirm was written by a specific person accept through word of mouth and the hope that the person who told you told the truth.

Where was the Bible during the 8th Century AD? Do you know? There were no printing presses then, so who held it? How many copies were there? Was it the original copy? Where DOES the original copy rest now?

And yet you believe in this book and yet you do not even know its history.

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I can uphold what He has revealed to us

What YOU have revealed to YOURSELF

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And who am I to defend God? I am nobody

I have always loved this of the religious. "I am nobody, I am humble, I am a speck of dust". Your religion dictates that those who are MOST blessed are those who are most humble. So you are actually being vane and completely conceipted to say you are nobody, accept instead of using common society as the benchmark for the definitions of those terms you are using the "benefits" of your own religion

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I am only one person out of countless numbers He has created and will create in the span of existence

So tell me... Why did he create the Bhudists? And the Hindu's? And the Mueslims? Was it some sick amusement to create people in a country that was never "exposed" to his teachings, let them make their own religion?

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As long as man exists there will be many who will go out of their way to deny Him... its nothing original. God will defend Himself on His own time

How can you deny something that doesn't exist? To "deny" means you believe to start with. Is that how limited your view is? That anyone who does NOT believe is actually "going out of their way to deny"????

I will let you in on a little secret... If God doesn't step in to "defend" Himself fairly soon... there wont be a single person on the face of the planet that will listen. Religous numbers are dropping significantly the world over, they are becoming disallusioned with the people at the top of those religions using them for their own purpose the whole time suffering absolutely no retribution in doing so.

Catholic Priests rape little boys and get away with it... the most holy of holies are able to sodomise weak and innocent people and yet God sits back and does nothing.

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I know this is supposed to be a VB forum so this is my last reply on this thread... like I said

Ah... We have another one who likes to come in, say their piece and then cover their ears so they don't hear the truth

Its a good way to maintain your faith. Say what you want, when you want and then ignore anything anyone says back or else you might find yourself questioning and that is a sin that will put you in hell forever right? Don't question just believe, thats the definition of faith.

"To believe without evidence"

Go look it up in a dicitionary

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If anyone seriously is interested in chatting about any of this you can email me here and I'd love to share more with you

What is your definition of "seriously interested in chatting"? Someone who believes? Someone you can convert?

Or are you going to dismiss anyone who has a different opinion as seeking to cause trouble and not wanting to genuinely "share".

How F*#king typical. I am sickened every time I see this blatant ignorance, ever time someone says "Hey I am open to talking about this... as long as we are agreeing and you will accept what I say or I can convert you"

*PUKE*
Jul 19th, 2000, 04:47 PM
wwjd

you wrote:

>So tell me... Why did he create the Bhudists? And the >Hindu's? And the Mueslims? Was it some sick amusement to >create people in a country that was never "exposed" to his >teachings, let them make their own religion?

I figured I should at least shed some light on this one for the benefit of some.

God created everything. God created all humans as well. Man chose, as we do now, to separate himself from God and go his own route. Through the ages man has invented "religions" as an avenue to meet with God. The only problem is that they are still tainted because we are trying to have communion with the creator on OUR terms. Thats not the way it works however. Thats like a child saying to his parents "I won't obey my parents, but instead I'll invent my own idea of how a child should behave and what a child should do to please his parents". That is shear nonsense. God has revealed to us many things. There are tons of proofs for it... and one could start with prophecy, but thats another issue altogether.

So, then. If God is perfect, why didn't He just create man to love and worship Him? Why are there so many of man's "religions" that are all so different? The answer boils down to one reason... LOVE. Love is not a feeling. It is an act of the will for the good of another. It could be through praise, sacrifices we make, enduring together. A man who loves his wife doesn't think, "wow... she really makes my heart pitter-patter". He is obviously attracted to her physically as well, but love involves choice. The man chooses to love his wife by making sacrifices for her, working long hours at his job, praising her, buying her flowers, etc.

In much the same way God loves us and wants us to love Him. What good is it to create a bunch of automatons? Is that love if creation was pre-programmed to love God alone by default and free-will was never a part of the picture? No! That would NOT be love at all. We would be nothing more than robots. We choose to return God's love by choice. That is love. Love involves choice. I love God because of His great love and mercy... because of all the mercy He has shown me... and all the changes that have resulted from me realizing where I went wrong (and continue to go wrong) and then running to the Lord with open arms. I cannot explain enough how much God transformed me out of His love. And I did nothing but accept Him and love Him back... thats all. That is love and that is why "religion" seems so un-unified. It is because we have the freedom to choose. We are naturally bent to want to do things our own way and disregard God's will completely... so we will obviously have various opinions on what "religion" is corrent. Religion has nothing to do with it. A relationship with God is nothing about relgion. A relationship with God is God ordained and NOT man ordained. We open our eyes, reach up out of faith, and He reaches down out of purest grace and love. It is about love...

[email protected]
Jul 19th, 2000, 05:49 PM
Gen-X

What a load of complete and utter self-delusional garbage

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God created everything. God created all humans as well. Man chose, as we do now, to separate himself from God and go his own route

So tell me. How is it that a child born in India "chose his own route" when Christianity wasn't even presented as an option to him????

People "believe" in whatever the cultural religion that is around them... For you it was Christianity, for others Bhudism.

Don't start believing that everyone else has chosen their own path or decided how THEY will approach God, it was already decided for them based on what they were exposed to as a child.

Christianity is an SPECIFIC religion that exists in SPECIFIC places.... you are basically saying that in those places where Christianity does NOT exist, the people turned away from god or attempt to worship him in their own selfish way.

Congratulations!!!!

You have just managed to offend every other relgion on the face of the earth and proclaim that YOURS is the right one and they are all trying to worship them on THEIR terms while you are doing it right.

I must really try this religious gig sometimes... the contempt and egotism it seems to breed into people is amazing.
Jul 20th, 2000, 08:37 AM
wwjd

Call it garbage if you want. I just thought I'd let you all know something:

Jesus loves you... ALL of you... those who love Him, and even those who deny Him and spit on His name...Christ loves us all.

"But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us." (Romans 5:8)

Take it for foolishness, or search your heart and consider that it may be true.

I obviously do not have all the answers or all the proofs. I never claimed to, and I will not pretend to. Also, for some more information... I was neither raised Christian nor are any of my friends Christians.

True Christianity is not a religion, but a relationship with God. Whatever people did in the name of Christianity in the past I cannot help. There are many "religions" and cults today that claim to be Christian and there always have been. Crusades, inquisitions... I cannot help what people have done in the past. It just better proves man's attempt to take things into his own hands. The truth always ends up tainted and people get hurt.

The basic point is that ALL of us are born with a knowledge of the existence of God. We can deny it if we want to, but we all know in the deepest part of our soul that God exists.

Let me ask you something (and this is open to all readers)... If you believe in the Big Bang theory (note... its merely theory), where did that initial mass come from? Knowing that mass is conserved, you would say that it maybe existed as energy. But where did that energy come from? Where did the first physical part of our universe come from and how did it get there? Where did space and time come from? Do you really believe that saying it always existed makes scientific sense in the physical world, or it is just an assumption to make another assumption sound more logical?

Also, do you believe in an after life, or is this the extent of our existence? Are we just a large grouping of cells that by chance happen to work in some order to produce a living organism? Do we then just live a fruitless life in vain and then just die and decompose? Is that it for us? Is that what your heart tells you...that we are purely physical and thats it?

[email protected]
Jul 20th, 2000, 09:04 AM
Iain17

wwjd

First off, and because i have asked this before, and i have never had a satisfactory answer. Why do you have such a problem with the universe always existing? You asked where the matter came from to create the universe as we know it. Well i say, what if it was always there, but a lot of people find this hard to fathom. Yet you will accept god as always having existed.

You : God has always been there.
Me : Why, where did he come from?
You : He was always there.
Me : So why can you accept god as having always existed, but not anything else. What is the difference?
You : "Insert Answer Here ..."

As for me personally, i do not believe there is an after life. Even some Christians i know do not believe there is an after life. They believe Heaven and Hell are a state of mind. Which i can find easier to accept than some mythical garden of Eden in the sky. Besides which, the majority of religions state that if you do not believe in their God, then you will go to hell. This means that everyone goes to hell in the end any way. Population of Heaven = 3. Population of Hell = ?

The only life after death there is, is that the energy from your dead body is passed on to other living creatures. In a sense you never die, as the energy that made up your body will never disappear.

*Sigh* Back on to God as perfect.

Another proposition of mine that never got a suitable response.

Me : So God is perfect then?
You : Yep.
Me : Completely?
You : Yes, he is a completely perfect being.
Me : Right. So, by being perfect he can do nothing wrong.
You : I suppose so.
Me : So if God is perfect, and can do nothing wrong, then I am perfect.
You : ?
Me : Seeing as god created me, and anything a perfect being does cannot be flawed and by defintion must be perfect, i must be perfect. Even if i do not believe in him, if he created us, i must be perfect.
You : "Insert Response Here ..."
Jul 20th, 2000, 09:08 AM
wwjd

Here's an interesting event to think about:

I don't know how many of you know who Saul of Tarsus was. In the time of Jesus Christ were the Jewish members of the Sanhedrin. These were prominent Jewish members of the community, high priests, teachers of the law, etc. One very respected member, named Gamaliel, had a student/protege named Saul of Tarsus. (Keep in mind these people are all historical figures, whose existence is verified ouside of the Bible.)

I don't know if all of you know this, but the Jews of the day vehemently opposed Jesus because he challenged their traditions and such. In fact the Jews eventually turned Jesus over to the Romans to be crucified based on trumped up false charges. Anyway, this Saul of Tarsus was a young and vital member of the Jewish community committed to the Sanhedrin, and more importantly, to making sure these "Christians" or followers of Christ were arrested and dealt their proper punishment. Saul was responsible for many arrests and even executions of early Christians within a few years after Christ's ascension. Saul was esteemed in the community, respected by very noble Jews, and in line to become a great leader in the Sanhedrin. He had it all. He had fame, education, leadership, honor among men... you name it.

Saul was on the was to a town named Damascus one day. He was on his way to arrest some Christians as a matter of fact. On the way, Saul was stopped by a blinding light. He heard the voice of Jesus ask him why he was persecuting Him. Saul cowered in fear as did those who were traveling with him who heard the sound, but didn't see anything. Saul was without his vision for 3 days. He was led into the city by those who were traveling with him. Saul, as instructed, met a man named Ananias, who was a disciple of Christ. To make a long story short... Saul spent time with the disciples there in Damascus and then returned a changed man.

Saul of Tarsus was the apostle Paul who wrote almost 2/3 of the New Testament. Since it can be verified that Paul existed, was Saul of Tarsus-a prominent Jewish figure who previously opposed Christ, had his life changed, left behind all that greatness and respect in his community, and eventually wrote 2/3 of the New Testament, how can you explain the transformation and the fact the Paul obviously believed his transformation to be true because of the many many times he was put in prison was eventually executed for being a follower of Christ... all of which are also historical facts. How can this be? It can only be if it is true. No man would leave everything behind that was so good and join a life of poverty, persecution, imprisonment, and eventual execution for something that he was only %90 sure about. Paul was %100 positive... and %100 positively changed by the power of Christ.
Jul 20th, 2000, 09:12 AM
wwjd

haha... I have seriously got to get to work, but just a quick response :)

To me, and don't take my word for it, it doesn't make much sense that something physical, something tangible that you can hold in your hand could have just always existed. There had to be a point where it came into being.

God, on the other hand is spirit. He is not physical and He is not tangible. He has existence in and of Himself. We cannot fully comprehend God because He is inifinite and we are finite, but we can apprehend that He exists.

Take care

[email protected]
Jul 20th, 2000, 09:16 AM
wwjd

hahaha.... ok.. one more for now

you wrote:

Me : Seeing as god created me, and anything a perfect being does cannot be flawed and by defintion must be perfect, i must be perfect. Even if i do not believe in him, if he created us, i must be perfect.
You : "Insert Response Here ..."

My response goes back to a previous thread about love. God did not create us as the "perfect automaton" to love Him by default. We are not programmed robots. If we were, it would not be love at all because there would be no choice in the matter. Love involves a choice, so we are created with free will. Out of that free will man chose to sin and to follow another path. Which leads us to where we are today...

Just a quickie... there are whole books written on that topic :)

Thanks.

[email protected]
Jul 20th, 2000, 05:56 PM
Gen-X

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
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HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

You are a complete and total fool my friend!

Listen to yourself? You ignore the questions people ask, ramble on your own delusional path and then sit back with a smile on your face like you did something right.

Your ignorant about the universe around you and the only thing that comes out of your mouth is the pre-programmed drivel that has been bashed into you.

You actually admitted the reason WHY you believe in God and you never noticed it. You stated indirectly that you cannot accept the fact that at death you are simply GONE... which shows your belief in God does NOT stem from any evidence but instead from your own fear of ending in NOTHINGNESS.

All of your information, every last WORD that you have gained on the subject of God and what you "believe" happened either came from people (your peers) or from books that have no PROOF of validity.

How do you know the Bible was the one written 2000 years ago? How do you know who wrote it?

Where exactly WAS the Bible in say the 8th century? There were not any printing presses which means it had to be written by hand. That time was called the dark ages due to the lack of man's progression. The book (or books) would have had to travel several thousand miles to reach where it did, to somehow leave Africa, make its way over or around the mediterranian and somehow cross the english channel.

Your "Christianity" is an Anglo-Saxon knock off imported by the church around the 11th century who decided to include the OLD testament because it contained what they considered the "rules" by which they could control the masses.

I truely pity you.

[Appologies to anyone whom I offend with this post, including those religious, but this person just irks me with his complete ignorance and total unabashed zealousness. Its people like HIM who thought they were doing "Gods Work" when they burned innocent people at the stake because they didn't UNDERSTAND what they did in their lives and were not TOLERANT of other people. Its people who think like THAT which cause wars and hatred and drive a seperation between the people of this world]
Jul 20th, 2000, 06:08 PM
Iain17

Gen-X

I wouldn't lose any sleep over him if i was you. I have just seen his replies to my questions, and i can't actually see where the question was anserwed.

Everyone Else

Could someone with more than two neurons to rub together be so good as to post a reply to my questions.
Jul 20th, 2000, 09:05 PM
CreepingDeath

Ok, I will start this message by stating that I am a firm believer in the Christian Bible.

Iain

You ask "Why am I not perfect?" Well, God is perfect... if he made you perfect, you would be a God. God gave us free will so that we would love Him on our own, not because He forces us.

Gen-X

What happened to you? You seem to have this irrational hatred for all believers (and God for that matter). Were you brought up Christian? something else? If you have never been a Christian, how do you know that it isn't the right way?

All

I challenge any of you to try being a Christian for just a few months. It can't hurt anything, it will only help. If you really give yourself to God, He will help you see. And if He doesn't exist, then nothing will happen. So give it a shot.

-CD
Jul 20th, 2000, 09:34 PM
Gen-X

CreepingDeath

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Well, God is perfect... if he made you perfect, you would be a God

So God "purposely" created an imperfect creature? So then isn't HE to blame for everything that goes wrong considering he was the one that didn't make us perfect?

If we hate people its because HE gave that to us, if we KILL people its because HE allowed us.

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God gave us free will so that we would love Him on our own, not because He forces us

Read your bible. "If you love me I will bless a thousand of your generations. If you hate me I will curse your sons, and your son's sons".

Does this sound like "free will" to you? I could corner you and say "Do what I say or I will kill you". Does that mean you have free will? Of course you can choose to die...

Don't confuse freedom to choose with being threatened with an eternity in hell as being "free will"

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What happened to you?

I got tired of people believing themselves so far above the rest of their fellow men that I decided to speak my piece. You believe that you follow the one "TRUE" God, who created the entire universe and everything in it.

That my friend is called "EGOTISM" and I HATE it almost as much as I hate ignorance.

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You seem to have this irrational hatred for all believers (and God for that matter).

"Irrational"?

Please explain the analytical process that you completed in order to assertain that what I have written is "irrational"?

Simply because it does not agree with what you say does not make it so. I have presented my argument with clarity, with examples... at no time have I been "irrational".

The actual word itself indicates a lack of "rationalization" and yet that has been something I have done an innordinate amount of .... rationalization, analysis, reasoning.

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Were you brought up Christian? something else?

My parents believe in God but do not attend Church. I went to a Catholic Sunday School by choice and as a result of a very dear old lady whom is Catholic and who is like a grandmother to me. My parents never forced any religious belief in me.

I reached an opportunity where someone I was dating was a Christian and I decided it wouldn't hurt to try it out. I listened to what they said, I watched the people and I spent 2 years travelling many places and speaking with many people. I attended Bible Study with groups and with EVERYTHING in my life I analysed it to determine its validity.

What I found was that those at the "top" of these religions were using it for personal gain, that the ministers sermons (and I saw hundreds of them) were geared to what they PERSONALLY wanted told, and I saw the manipulation.

I asked questions during Study that people could not answer, and I was told to "just believe". I watched a Christian couple weep because their parents were going to hell because they simply didn't "accept" what their children did, even though these people were more Christian than most.

I saw what I consider to be such utter contempt for everyone else, xenophobia, seperatism, egotism and everything else they "claim" they are above like putrid worms infesting that which they considered the most sacred.

Now I am sure you will say "Ah, so you had a bad experience, that doesn't mean everyone else is like that". But the funny thing is that I still watch people, and still the stereotype holds... each person I meet who has a religious belief (specifically Christian) share exactly the same traits, I watch on the news how Catholic Priests rape little boys, I studied history on how people were burned at the stake and how innocent people were murdered in the name of "God".

To top it all off I found inconsistencies in the Bible, I read of its origins during the 11th century when the Old Testiment was "borrowed" from the jews in order to control the masses....

Just to round things out I see the reason why people choose to believe, I see how they "need" to believe just to get by in this world.

I consider it ignorance of the highest order, and ignorance at that level is what causes problems in this world. It is the reason why women don't have the freedom to choose what happens to their own bodies... because some religious "freak" decides the baby she is carrying has more rights to life than she does, how bigots stand on the street corner and "SCREAM" at people who pass by that they are all going to hell, I see egotism and blindness...

I am not a perfect person, I have many "flaws". My biggest flaw is that I cannot stand "injustice" or "dishonesty" and Christianity just ticks off that flaw more than anything else.

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If you have never been a Christian, how do you know that it isn't the right way?

Have you been Bhudist? or Mueslim? How about Hindu?

No? Then how do you know Christianity is the right way????

You really put your foot in your mouth with that one.

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I challenge any of you to try being a Christian for just a few months. It can't hurt anything, it will only help

You know that is EXACTLY what I thought when I did it.

I just love your "God-Almighty-Holier-Than-Thou-Avangelism".

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If you really give yourself to God, He will help you see

I shall re-write this for people as it is meant :

"If you really give yourself to insanity, then it will help you see"

Because that is what you are asking. To choose is to believe... and once you believe you see whatever you WANT to see.

A man who sees pixies considers himself insane. If he "knows" he is seeing them then he can help himself. If however he "gives himself" to the belief they are real then he is LOST forever in believing them.

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And if He doesn't exist, then nothing will happen. So give it a shot.

And now I am going to challenge you. Try being non-religious for a few months, do not think a SINGLE thought on religion or God and see how you go.
Jul 20th, 2000, 10:11 PM
CreepingDeath

You just proved my point

You have a problem with me because I openly declare myself as a Christian. You just wrote a long reply telling me how ignorant and egotistical I am. You don't even know me, yet you are so quick to judge me. This is the irrational hatred I am talking about. I am not saying that your argument is irrational.

God gives us more chances than you are willing to give Him credit for. We have our whole lives to find Him. God did not create us as evil beings, Adam and Eve were blameless until they disobeyed God (which they were free to do). After that, God still took care of them, but they were no longer blameless. God does not strike us down the moment we sin, so you shouldn't act as if He does.

I have had a period in my life where I wasn't actively religious. I feel a lot better about myself and my life now that I am. As far as other religions go, from my point of view, it will hurt me to devote myself to them. If I die while I am "exploring" I will go to hell.

About your religious stereotypes, yes, you do hear about priests raping little boys. However, personally, I think that the Catholic denomination is very contradictory to begin with anyway. The priest are treated as dieties. As far as the street corner preaching goes, has Jesus not said "Do not cast your pearls before swine."? You should not blame an individuals mistake on their religion.

Now have your way with me. Call me moronic, egotistical, ignorant, and anything else you wish. Hate me for my beliefs. I feel bad for you. I will be praying for you whether you like it or not.

-CD
Jul 20th, 2000, 10:30 PM
Gen-X

CreepingDeath

*Sigh*

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You have a problem with me because I openly declare myself as a Christian. You don't even know me, yet you are so quick to judge me

Is that how little you bother to analyse?

I did not make a "quick" judgement. I based my assessment on several factors. That you "announced" yourself Christian was to your credit because it indicates you are willing to place your background open in order to have your points taken in the correct context.

I analysed your post, noted your behavioral similarities to others who have made similar claims, noted your avangelical attempt, mused to myself over your name being "CreepingDEATH", deconstructed your attempt to justify to yourself how God can be perfect and yet create "imperfect" beings and then drew my conclusions based on the information that I have at hand.

Isn't that what you have done to me? you read my posts and came to a concusion based on "WHAT YOU KNOW".

The funny thing is that only Christians attempt to say "Judgement" is bad... because they have been trained to... and yet we "Judge" everyone all the time and not even realise it. Of course some say its a "guess" or an "educated assessment" but it all boils down to making a decision about some else.

"What happened to you?"

Is that not a JUDGEMENT that you decided something must have happened to me in order for me to repond as I do?

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God gives us more chances than you are willing to give Him credit for. We have our whole lives to find Him

Lets try a simple question... Can actually answer it?

A Boy is born in India, spends his whole life not even knowing Christianity exists.

How many chances is this person given to "believe"????
What will happen to him when he dies????

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Adam and Eve were blameless until they disobeyed God

God gave them contradicting "rules". He told them to go out and explore, to live life and then told them NOT to do something. He didn't explain what would happen if they did and they (being good and never having SEEN evil) didn't realise what they were doing...

And yet God punished them and banished them for the very FIRST offense they ever did. Is that a perfect God? Where was the forgiveness?????

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God still took care of them

In which part did he take care of them? When they had to struggle to live? Or when their first born sons started killing each other???

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God does not strike us down the moment we sin, so you shouldn't act as if He does

Mmmmm... disobey God, Get out of Eden.

Sounds like striking them down the moment they sinned to me

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I feel a lot better about myself and my life now that I am

So religion is a comfort to you? Something that you "require" in order to feel good about yourself?

Interesting....

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As far as other religions go, from my point of view, it will hurt me to devote myself to them. If I die while I am "exploring" I will go to hell.

You hypocrit!!!!

You asked me if I hadn't tried Christianity how I would know its right and yet when I ask you the SAME question you say that you Don't BELIEVE another religion could be right but you would explore anyway.

THAT is irrational.

Quote:

However, personally, I think that the Catholic denomination is very contradictory to begin with anyway

So now you cast dispersions at other religions? That is some of the "egotism" that I am talking about. "I am right, Catholicism is wrong". Your a member of the "winning team" while everyone else is on the "losing side".

Now your Egotistical and Pious

Quote:

The priest are treated as dieties

Isn't Jesus treated as a Deity? He is the "SON OF" God... not a God himself and yet you worship him and the Holy Spirit as if they were dieties as well.

God said not to worship "Idols" or "Symbols"... and yet isn't the "holy spirit" a symbol? Is not Jesus an "Idol"?

Make up your mind... you sound as contradictory as you claim the Catholics are.

Quote:

has Jesus not said "Do not cast your pearls before swine."?

Now you say the common person on the street is a "swine". So you cast dispersions at EVERY human being that is not Christian. Again you are being egotistical and "Holier-Than-Thou"

Quote:

You should not blame an individuals mistake on their religion

Why not? You do.

If a person does GOOD then you say "God did it", if a person does BAD you say "Man did it".

If you cannot blame the religion for the individuals mistakes then you cannot PRAISE religion for the individuals mistakes. To do one and not the other is MANIPULATION.

Quote:

Call me moronic, egotistical, ignorant, and anything else you wish

I wont call you a moron because that is a dispersion. I will however call you ignorant because that is a word that correctly describes what I personally believe is your lack of seeing things infront of your nose. I will also call you egotistical because they are traits you have displayed.

Quote:

Hate me for my beliefs

I don't hate anyone... I hate ideas and concepts, I hate ignorance and people thinking themselves "above" other people. That you have those traits means I hate those traits not you.

I actually pity you for your belief because it has no foundation and at the end of your life you will be sad. If I am wrong then at the end of my life I will realise my mistake and be HAPPY.

So either way I will either be right or happy... while either way you will be right or dead.

Quote:

I will be praying for you whether you like it or

Don't push your religion onto me. How DARE you be so inconsiderate, selfish and immoral!!!!

I wouldn't tell you that I am going to sacrifice a chicken for you whether you like it or not so don't start casting unwanted dispersions at me like that.
Jul 21st, 2000, 03:36 AM
Iain17
*sigh*

Will i ever get an answer that deals with my question, or is it because you can't answer the question. I will state it again, in light of people misreading it or deliberately misunderstanding it.

I will start of with the premises to my argument.
- Premise 1 : God is completely perfect
- Premise 2 : Everything a perfect being does, by definition must be perfect
Now i will assume you can grasp these two fundamental concepts. They are not difficult to understand. Just to make sure, i will expand on the 2nd one a little.

Premise 2
This will make perfect sense if you think about it. If a perfect being did something that wasn't perfect, then that perfect being could not have been perfect, because they did something wrong.

Ok. Now i have explained it as clearly as i can, maybe someone can reply to the following postulation, without dodging the point, or have you no answers?

Postulation
Now we have defined God as being perfect, Everything he does must be perfect. If something he did was not perfect, then by definition God would not be perfect. So, as you insist on God being perfect, and that is seen as an unshakable truth in the religious world, I must be perfect. Because if he got me wrong, then he wasn't perfect in the first place.

In anticipation of an intelligent response.
Jul 21st, 2000, 07:36 AM
dvst8

iain
I read somewhere (maybe an earlier post in this thread) that someone (i think the guy who claimed to be a prophet) said Man is a reflection of God. (Hence the claim that Man is created in His image). Agreeing with your postulation, this would seem to indicate that WE must all be perfect. How can the reflection of perfection be imperfect? I too, await an answer to this.

Gen-X
Have you not already had this identical argument with countless people--me included--in this thread (and others) before? You should just start referring people to past posts...might save you some typing :)

Creep
At what point do you realize you may be wrong? Do you acknowledge that you being wrong IS a possibility? How many inconsistencies in your argumentation must be pointed out before you accept that you may be in error?
Not too long ago, I shared your opinion. But after having some very serious discussions with people in these forums, and doing some very earnest thinking, concluded that I had been in error. I am a much happier person today because of it.
Jul 21st, 2000, 01:49 PM
HarryW

Quote:

I must really try this religious gig sometimes... the contempt and egotism it seems to breed into people is amazing

Sounds like you'd fit right in ;)
Jul 21st, 2000, 10:12 PM
kedaman

Trying to neutralize Iains first qwestion

Quote:

Why do you have such a problem with the universe always existing?

Iain, I had an idea i posted here a while ago about having an universe that have always existed, but also been created by God. Did you remember that one? Simply based on that God is not bound to any time and so when he created it, he must have created the whole history which could be as unlimited as in one direction as in two.

Quote:

You : God has always been there.
Me : Why, where did he come from?
You : He was always there.
Me : So why can you accept god as having always existed, but not anything else. What is the difference?
You : "Insert Answer Here ..."

Therefore i think it's pointless in discussing God bound to any time at all.

Gen-X, i'm going to ask you a qwestion;

Is Free Will Perfect?
What does creation of Free Will mean?

By clearing out this I could see your definition of perfect.

We are of course assuming that God is perfect.

Quote:

That my friend is called "EGOTISM" and I HATE it almost as much as I hate ignorance.

You hate ignorance? If you hate, you must be ignorant, therefore you hate what you do, you hate yourself, you hate humanity, and you are purely ignorant. Just how would it be if you realized this?
Jul 22nd, 2000, 01:10 PM
Iain17

Kedaman

Forget about time, Time has only existed since the formation of our 4d universe. This means that the universe has existed for all time.

So what I am asking is why do people accept God as always having existed, but can’t accept the universe as always having existed.

Maybe universe is the wring word, as people see the universe as it is today. So ignore the fact that the universe is currently in a 4d shape, and just think generally about the question.

Also, I am sick of hearing things like this.

Quote:

God, on the other hand is spirit. He is not physical and He is not tangible. He has existence in and of Himself. We cannot fully comprehend God because He is infinite and we are finite, but we can apprehend that He exists.

Ignore the fact that God is supposedly a spirit. Just explain to me why people can accept one thing as always having existed, but not another.
Jul 22nd, 2000, 05:29 PM

I think...

If "something exists now"
Then "something must always have existed"

(Where the "If 'something'" isn't necessarily the same as the "Then 'something'").

Is that agreed here?
Jul 22nd, 2000, 06:43 PM
HarryW

Who thinks time is infinite in both directions, one direction, or neither direction? Just out of interest.

Intuition would say that it's infinite in both directions, but it's not necessarily that simple.
Jul 22nd, 2000, 07:59 PM
kedaman

Iain, don't count Time as the fourth Dimension because it would limit you from thinking objectively

Code:

<----------<--------<-<-<-<-<>->->->->------->------------>---------------> Past Now Future

Just if we live in a predetermined world, which is nessesary if we assume God exists, Time line would look like this, and independently for each space vector in universe, so that would mean Time cannot count as a dimension, without getting subjective.

Anyway If universe expands from a specific point in time it would look like this
[/code]
>>->-->--->----->------->-------------->--------------------> |
Beginning End
[/code]
Where end is a specific point where the last > is entered. Although this would never happen since universe would expand forever, and there would always be particles and radiation, moving. Unless time would collapse in lack of movement which wouldn't happen according to todays physics.

If Time was created, you could probably wonder why; The purpose of time is movement and so there isn't a special need to make it unlimited. On the other hand it's possible that time would have to be unlimited to have a proper meaning.

I'm suggesting it does not matter if wheather you limit it or not, it wouldn't change anything at all.

Also - everything have always existed, because always refers to the amount of time universe comprehends, meaning also Universe has always existed. Don't get me wrong, i'm sure "always" is a useless term beyond time.

If youre not comfortable with someone talking about God, you probably just don't understand, and therefore ignore, that's called ignorance. Be patient and you could try to learn something instead.
Jul 23rd, 2000, 06:08 PM
Gen-X

HarryW

Quote:

Sounds like you'd fit right in

Come and join me :)

Kedaman

Quote:

Iain, I had an idea i posted here a while ago about having an universe that have always existed, but also been created by God. Did you remember that one?

If it "always" existed then it could not have been "created" as the two words are mutually exclusive.

Thought that one was obvious.

Quote:

Is Free Will Perfect?
What does creation of Free Will mean?

What is your definition of "Free Will"? The "Free Will" as discussed by Biblical people? Or the english definition of the word "Will" as related to the other word "Free"?

I don't think there is a Biblical Free Will so how can I tell you if something I don't see as existing is perfect?

And I completely don't understand what you mean by "creation of Free Will".

Quote:

If you hate, you must be ignorant, therefore you hate what you do, you hate yourself, you hate humanity, and you are purely ignorant. Just how would it be if you realized this?

"If I hate, I must be ignorant"?
Explain that one?

If I hate MURDER does that mean I am ignorant of murder? That I don't understand it properly... that if I can to truely understand MURDER I would not hate it?

While hate CAN stem from ignorance... not ALL hate does.

Quote:

Iain, don't count Time as the fourth Dimension because it would limit you from thinking objectively

hhhehe... I love this one.

"Dont think of it as an orange... it will limit you from thinking objectively"... "But it IS an orange".

Hehehehe...

Time IS a dimension... therefor it means it has no limits (even Sam would agree with me on this). To suddenly say that time has a "beginning" is subjective... not objective as you think.

Quote:

If youre not comfortable with someone talking about God, you probably just don't understand, and therefore ignore, that's called ignorance. Be patient and you could try to learn something instead.

HAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!!! :D

You know I missed your crazy ideas Ked.

98234932849012723498347572934723 24897273498475 21983 47475

Did you understand that? No? Well you must be ignorant. Be patient and you could try to learn something instead.

Where DO you get these warped ideas??????

VirtuallyVB

Not sure what you are trying to say. I have read what you wrote several way and can't really make out what you are trying to mean.

If something exists now
Then that SAME thing though not having always existed, is MADE UP of things that have always existed. (ie atoms)
Jul 23rd, 2000, 07:35 PM
kedaman

The problem with you, Gen-X, Is that you think you know everything

While actually you don't know anything at all.

Not being personal at all, just putting Gen-X representing humanity pretty well here too.

Quote:

If it "always" existed then it could not have been "created" as the two words are mutually exclusive.

Thought that one was obvious.

I know that, but we aren't we talking about creation here? Creation means something, and it's not in any ways prooved been impossible. So saying if creation is possible, you can create infinite Time, causing everything to exist, in other ways always. Not too obvius right`?

YOu could stop using the word create but using it implicates that you are openminded to a wider scope

Quote:

I don't think there is a Biblical Free Will so how can I tell you if something I don't see as existing is perfect?

That's not the issue here, why do we discuss God at all if we don't assume he exist first. If youre having to go for ignorance, you would just exclude yourself from discussion and show your hate instead.
That is wrong.

Quote:

And I completely don't understand what you mean by "creation of Free Will"

notice that with creation I use the same term as before, I think you should know what creation is, by now.

Quote:

hate CAN stem from ignorance... not ALL hate does.

And why are you so sure about that? Think about everything, let's take murder as a sample. You know murder means something really disgusting, but you can't explain it in any ways at all, it's just a concept created from your observations, it's only in your mind; you are bound to be ignorant.

Hate is just a very unpleasant way to show ignorance.

Quote:

Quote:

Iain, don't count Time as the fourth Dimension because it would limit you from thinking objectively

hhhehe... I love this one.

"Dont think of it as an orange... it will limit you from thinking objectively"... "But it IS an orange".

yeah, i know you love to think you know what you see.

Quote:

Time IS a dimension... therefor it means it has no limits (even Sam would agree with me on this). To suddenly say that time has a "beginning" is subjective... not objective as you think.

Time IS a dimension, yet it doesn't build up a four-dimensional coordinate system with space. Because Time is a dimension to a vector, not a coordinate. I'm not sure whether Sam is going to agree with me, but Time is relative, and that makes it subjective.

Quote:

HAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!!!

You know I missed your crazy ideas Ked.

98234932849012723498347572934723 24897273498475 21983 47475

Did you understand that? No? Well you must be ignorant. Be patient and you could try to learn something instead.

Where DO you get these warped ideas??????

Yes, i perfectly did understand that, but arent you just confirming your ignorance again Gen-x?
Just talking reason to any human makes him think you're warped, that's because he's warped.
Don't deny it again.

HarryW

Quote:

Sounds like you'd fit right in

Or you could join me, :)
Religion and Science are both the same language, the language of fate.
Believe it or not, but I want to Believe :D
VirtuallyVB

Quote:

If "something exists now"
Then "something must always have existed"

(Where the "If 'something'" isn't necessarily the same as the "Then 'something'").

Is that agreed here?

I think we should agree on that everything has always existed
Jul 23rd, 2000, 08:13 PM
Gen-X

Kedaman

Quote:

The problem with you, Gen-X, Is that you think you know everything

Are you that ignorant?

What may appear to you as me knowing everything is in fact me being simply "sure" of what I do know. That doesn't mean I am right... it means I trust what knowledge I have based on what is available to me.

If I discover in the future I got something wrong then I correct it and again I am "sure" with what I know.

Don't confuse confidence with some self-deluded assumption that I know everything because I don't.

Quote:

I know that, but we aren't we talking about creation here?

I "assume" you mean "but aren't we talking about creation here?" (the sentance doesn't make sense as it is).

As for the rest of that passage it made next to no sense.

"Creation" is the process of bringing something from nothing. It is a "relative" term.

One could say you "create" a baby. That is because where once there was no baby there now is. Hence something was "created".

In actuality you could take the perspective in that the baby was formed from an influx of energy from the mother, and that this energy came from the food that was eaten to the point where the baby was NOT created but instead was formed from "pre-existing" components via conversion.

The same applies to the universe. While some could take the perspective that the occurance of the "Big Bang" was the "creation" of the universe, this would be because they limit their perspective.

My personal definition of the word "creation" in relation to the universe is that it was the addition of energy where once there was not... and that is not possible in my estimation because I personally believe the universe has always existed and what "caused" the big bang was the previous one.

To use YOUR terminology, you see the creator as whatever "caused" the big bang, which was the preivous one, and the one before that, and before that... and so on. So for every "creator" that you say there was a "creator" of that "creator".

Why can your mind not cope with this? Why does it have to manufacture some "external" source?

Quote:

That's not the issue here

That IS the issue here. You are asking me to make comment on a concept without having defined what that concept is.

If I give you an answer based on MY definition and you use that answer based on YOUR definition then we only get confused. Surely the first thing we should do is actually "DEFINE" what it is you are asking?

Quote:

why do we discuss God at all if we don't assume he exist first

For the same reason why psychologists discuss "invisible friends" with their patients. That we discuss something does not make it true.

Again you fail to see the simplest of understandings.

Quote:

youre having to go for ignorance, you would just exclude yourself from discussion and show your hate instead

You mean as those people would that make their comments and then leave, saying they will not enter into a discussion?

Quote:

I think you should know what creation is, by now

I do... but it isn't the same definition that you have. While mine takes the broadest term there is, your is limited to your own perspective.

To date nothing has ever existed in our universe that was not derrived from another part of it, a play of energy being converted and transfered from source to source.

That you would take this evidence and "suggest" that it MUST come from somewhere shows a lack of understanding of the concept of infinity. That fact you must draw a CREATOR, CREATION, BEGINNING or END is the biggest proof of this lack of understanding.

Quote:

And why are you so sure about that?

Because I read what you wrote next and nearly laughed myself off the chair. :)

Quote:

Think about everything, let's take murder as a sample. You know murder means something really disgusting, but you can't explain it in any ways at all, it's just a concept created from your observations, it's only in your mind; you are bound to be ignorant

Actually you are more wrong than you have ever been before and once again you have me doubting your rationality.

Murder is NOT disgusting for some unknown reason, its disgusting because I would not like it to happen to me. I would not appreciate someone forcefully removing my life and so I "HATE" it not because I am ignorant of it but because I am completely and totally INFORMED as to what it is, what its effects are and what the end result is.

Do unto others remember...

I have witnessed firsthand people making poor judgements due to ignorance and I have personally felt the results of those. So I HATE ignorance... not becaue I am ignorant (though we all are to some things) but because I dislike the effects of it that I have EXPERIENCED.

I have my own rights, the right to speak, the right to live, the right to not being stopped in doing what I want unless it violates someone ELSES rights to the same thing.

Therefor I HATE everything that would violate my rights and because I am NOT selfish, I HATE everything that would violate someone elses rights for the same reason.

So explain to me using your warped view of the world how it is I am "ignorant" about murder then?

Quote:

Hate is just a very unpleasant way to show ignorance

Pleasant?

So you are saying Hate is pleasant and ignorance is not? I would have thought it the other way around....

But then again I am thinking as a rational person to someone who thinks they have to "experience" murder in order to truely be able to hate it. :)

Quote:

yeah, i know you love to think you know what you see

And I know you love to see pink polka dotted elephants that fly around your room at night. :D

Guess which one gets a free stay in a mental assylum???

Opening your mind is a good thing, it lets the air in to keep it fresh... but unfortunately I think you have opened your mind TOO far and your brains have fallen out :D

Quote:

yet it doesn't build up a four-dimensional coordinate system with space

It doesn't? How does it not?

I think you are thinking too much like a three-dimensional being to see it. Again Sam would be shaking his head at your statement.

Quote:

Because Time is a dimension to a vector, not a coordinate

Just as "Length" is a dimension to a vector... whats the difference?

Quote:

I'm not sure whether Sam is going to agree with me, but Time is relative, and that makes it subjective.

3D space is "realative". Each of us places ourselves as the apex and determine the results from there. That means everything is subjective.

Where DID you get your schooling from? A cornflakes packet???

Quote:

Yes, i perfectly did understand that

Then what did it say?

Quote:

Just talking reason to any human makes him think you're warped, that's because he's warped.
Don't deny it again.

Ah, but here is the trick. You then ask someone else, and someone else, and another, and another....

If at the end of your search you have a 50-50 split you say "the jury is out". If you get a 90-10 split in your favour you say "HE IS WARPED", if you get a 10-90 split in THEIR favour you say "Gee... Maybe *I* am WARPED".

I have more people that say I talk sense than those who don't... and those who say I don't seem to have other people that say THEY don't talk sense. So the natural conclusion is that if we had to pick a warped person it would have to be you ;)

Quote:

Religion and Science are both the same language, the language of fate.

Are you a Scientologist?

"Fate" is a pre-determined path that we MUST follow. If we don't then it wasn't our "fate". Therefor your definition of "Free Will" doesn't exist because if it did it couldn't exist alongside "Fate".

Make your mind up... are we "Fated" or do we have "Free Will"?
Jul 23rd, 2000, 08:48 PM

That is my point Gen-X

So we found a point of agreement. Something existed, now something else exists (in a different form at best).

The constant here is change.

For instance, the internet didn't always exist, but something existed before it. Something always existed. You know that I will say it is God and I believe you will say it is the universe.

You seemed to be saying that hate isn't always bad. Develop that and you'll begin to understand a jealous God.

I thought we dealt with perfection already and the fact that it is limited.

On will:
I believe we have a will, but not a free will. Definitions are in order here.
You most likely have to eat tomorrow, but you can probably choose what to eat. The will part is the choice of what to eat. The free will part is that you must eat (no free will). You may choose to not eat and therefore die, but the penalty for not eating is decided.

[Edited by VirtuallyVB on 07-23-2000 at 09:53 PM]
Jul 23rd, 2000, 09:13 PM
Gen-X

VirtuallyVB

Quote:

So we found a point of agreement

Yes we have.

Quote:

The constant here is change.

I would define it more precisely in saying that the constant here is "change within a closed system". This is based on our understanding that energy is never lost within a closed system and that it only takes other forms.

Quote:

For instance, the internet didn't always exist, but something existed before it. Something always existed. You know that I will say it is God and I believe you will say it is the universe.

Using your own analogy. Even though the internet didn't exist, the "something" that existed before it was in the same place, inside the same system.

On the other hand, God (as you have said) exists outside our closed system and still exists even though we now have our universe. How then do you explain this?

Quote:

You seemed to be saying that hate isn't always bad

Then that is a failure on my part to be specific enough.

In my opinion there is a difference between "hate" and perhaps "loath" and "dislike" and "being wary of", though I consider them all degrees of roughly the same concept.

When I said I "hate ignorance", it may have implied to you that it was the worst form of hate whereas I was just being general in using the word....

I could say "I hate getting up in the morning" and I am sure you would not automatically assume that means I have some deep seeded loathing that boils my blood to the point of seeing red that I just have to kill "getting up in the morning". Instead it means that it is something I do not like to see, or do etc, etc...

This is what I mean what I use the word in such a general context. I thought that is what everyone else was using as well... I certainly wasn't indicating the "Biblical hate" which I believe is an irrational and erroneous emotion that causes people to act unjustly or incorrectly.

Quote:

Develop that and you'll begin to understand a jealous God

I already DO understand a jealous God... but that isn't what some people believe is true. As part of my philosophy in the consideration of the existance of God he would not only be jealous but also imperfect and often vengeful.

My proof for this is in his own words of loving someone who loves him for a thousand generations but punishing the son's of someone who hates him... That to me is spiteful vengance and proof that if God did exist he is not only imperfect but also suffers human foibles.

Quote:

I thought we dealt with perfection already and the fact that it is limited.

Not sure what this was in relation to. "We" meaning yourself and I have dealt with this and I think we came to the conclusion of that which is "perfect" is not "everything" be the nature of the fact that perfection MUST exclude that which is NOT perfect making it a subset.

So in other words... That which is perfect is INCOMPLETE, unrounded, one-sided, unbalanced.

Sorry if I am going over it again :)

Quote:

I believe we have a will, but not a free will. Definitions are in order here.

Again in my philosophy for the existance of a God I agree that we would not have free will. So again it goes against those who say we do.

We seem to be agreeing a lot here

Quote:

The free will part is that you must eat (no free will).

But I still have a choice. I can choose to starve myself to death and thus die.

So I ask then... If God tells us "If you don't obey me you will go to hell" isn't that the same as me not eating and dying?

To choose to do something that results in your ultimate death (or eternity in hell) is the same thing.

So we are FORCED to make the right choice for purposes of preservation. There is nothing "Free" about that at all... in most circles that is called "Terrorism".

I am a little confused though... I think you mixed up the 2 terms and that you meant the "Free will" part is in choosing what to eat but the "No Free Will" part is in having to eat.

If that is the case then you would agree with me in saying that while we have the "choice" in what we do in our lives we have NO choice in following God.

There is a difference however....

If we choose to NOT eat we die because that is the law of the universe...

If we choose to NOT follow god then we go to hell not because its a "law"... but because a sentient, conscious and "reasoning" being has "decided" we are going to hell.

They are 2 vastly different outcomes... like me putting a gun to your head and saying the the law of the universe relating to velocity of a projectile that kills you for not obeying something I told you to do rather than the fact I Pulled the trigger myself.

Surely you must see this?!?!?!
Jul 24th, 2000, 05:32 AM
HarryW

The fact that more people don't post massive long messages doesn't necessarily mean they agree with you. I more or less stopped responding to the religious threads on this forum because I have much better things to do than spend years typing.

Also, I don't appreciate being patronised several times per post.

I have no problem with the idea of a jealous God. I mean there's phrases like 'The wrath of God' and 'Struck down'. Just watch Pulp Fiction, that explains it pretty well. I am also not convinced that God would be perfect.

I also don't think that the universe needs a beginning to be created. If God exists, I don't think of Him as some kind of big white-haired, bearded guy in a robe who physically exists. In my mind it's not necessary for Him to have any form of physical presense anywhere, meaning He can reside outside our universe and/or not be made of energy or matter.

kedaman didn't say that hate was pleasant, he said the exact opposite to that, he said it was unpleasant. You're a bit over-zealous when it comes to getting one over on him I think.

Given the 'hate of murder' topic, though... Why do you fear death? I'm not saying I don't, I want my life intact, but what is the actual reason for it? Would it matter if you did actually cease to exist? Apart from the effect on other people I mean.

I know it's obvious that people have a huge problem with the act of murder, but as kedaman said, do you actually know why? The will to live is just an instinct if you don't hold religious beliefs after all.
Jul 24th, 2000, 10:16 AM

"God he would not only be jealous but also imperfect and often vengeful"

He is jealous and says, "Vengence is mine says the Lord". But as regards perfect, I think you restated it below the above statement when you said, "That which is perfect is INCOMPLETE, unrounded, one-sided, unbalanced.", except you have to watch your context. I prefer to say limited.

When I wrote it, I thought it could be misinterpreted because I wrote the converse, "I am a little confused though... I think you mixed up the 2 terms and that you meant the "Free will" part is in choosing what to eat but the "No Free Will" part is in having to eat."; but I meant "free will" is the set of things that are fated or must happen, while "will" is a choice along that predetermined path. So I maintain that "free will" is the issue that we must eat, the choice of what to eat is "will".

I'll have to relook at the part below the above statements and where you say "Surely you must see this?!?!?!", because I didn't readily see this. Maybe after lunch on this Monday. I hate Mondays ;)
Jul 24th, 2000, 03:57 PM
kedaman

Aah, Gen-X seems like you forgot everything we talked about in AI and Creation thread....

Nothing is ever created, just changing

That's what you meant right? That is as earlier mentioned, agreed, at least i am agreeing.

But Creation opens a wider scope, just because it has a meaning; "God created universe" therefore making a large amount of terms meaningless or ambigous. But you have to take this, as a part of the Assuming we do when we discuss God. You have to accept.

Quote:

Why can your mind not cope with this? Why does it have to manufacture some "external" source?

This is like saying "Why can't you understand that there is no explanation", which is as you should know, totally unscientific. If Eintein explained something better than Newton and make up new rules, we will use them because you will get more correct results with them.

I have said it and say it again, you don't have any explanations at all, and that makes you in any way comfortable?

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That IS the issue here. You are asking me to make comment on a concept without having defined what that concept is.

If I give you an answer based on MY definition and you use that answer based on YOUR definition then we only get confused. Surely the first thing we should do is actually "DEFINE" what it is you are asking?

You missunderstood me: I meant that the issue is not that you don't think there is a Biblical Free Will, especially when we all know that.
The Issue is whether Free Will is perfect or not, if we assume it.

Agreed on that we should define everything, especially as you like to missunderstand as soon as it is possible.
But now i'm asking you again you again, to define Free Will, and if you'd like to call it Biblical Free Will, it's ok as if you don't define it, i don't know why you are arguing something you don't know a **** about.

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For the same reason why psychologists discuss "invisible friends" with their patients. That we discuss something does not make it true.

Again you fail to see the simplest of understandings.

Then Leave, and don't come back before you accept what is assumed.

You don't discuss something that is true, you discuss wheather it's true or not. And we are not assuming your imagination as true.

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You mean as those people would that make their comments and then leave, saying they will not enter into a discussion?

No, because they are not showing their hate, like you do.

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I do... but it isn't the same definition that you have. While mine takes the broadest term there is, your is limited to your own perspective.

First, If you examine what we have talked about in over 100 posts, you'd probably notice that creation is not a limitation, it's a extension. Second, there is no meaning with creation inside our universe. Your is the one limited, and limited to your imagination.

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That you would take this evidence and "suggest" that it MUST come from somewhere shows a lack of understanding of the concept of infinity. That fact you must draw a CREATOR, CREATION, BEGINNING or END is the biggest proof of this lack of understanding.

you mean that you have a lack of explanations, that's what it is all about. BTW, CREATION, BEGINNING or END, Is not my Drawings, and Creator is probably shared between the majority of humanity.

I understand what Infinity is but is not a explanation, and every scientist should know that.

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Because I read what you wrote next and nearly laughed myself off the chair.

So you became sure on something if you start laughing, that's interesting, LOL :)

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I would not like it to happen to me

HAHA, Trapped! How do you know Murder, actually means something? No, you don't and if you try to explain, take your time because I want to have definitions of everything you explain, and your personal proof that it exists. You remember that carrot?

You are as Ignorant as everyone else to almost everything, you believe what you observe you believe in science, you give a **** about if it's correct or not, just because it seems correct, and that's humanity in a nutshell. I'm just one of i don't know how many who don't need to be bound to any ignorance at all, by not having any beliefs at all. Although i'm as normal as anyone else and as you say "rational" and ignorant, just because i want to act, interact.

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And I know you love to see pink polka dotted elephants that fly around your room at night.

No, you believe you know something, and i love to see orange is at looks like, not with pink dots or anything.

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I think you are thinking too much like a three-dimensional being to see it

Just what did you just say? How can you point me out for being thinking three-dimensional, as everyone else does it? Aren't you the one irrational here? Ok, to the point, i know exactly how a four dimensional coordinate system works, but that doesn't mean there is any in reality.

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Just as "Length" is a dimension to a vector... whats the difference?

*Laughing* (I'm so sure about what i say because i just falled of my chair, LOL)
Sam surely could explain you the difference between a vector and a coordinate.

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3D space is "realative"

I'm sure Sam wouldn't agree with you.

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Then what did it say?

98234932849012723498347572934723 24897273498475 21983 47475
The four numbers you were typing on the keybord laughing and thinking about how i would react.

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Ah, but here is the trick. You then ask someone else, and someone else, and another, and another....

If at the end of your search you have a 50-50 split you say "the jury is out". If you get a 90-10 split in your favour you say "HE IS WARPED", if you get a 10-90 split in THEIR favour you say "Gee... Maybe *I* am WARPED".

Ah, but here's the bug. You realize 30 years later, a scientific discover that says everyone where wrong. You cannot actually think, what the most people thinks, must be the right thing to think. Are you religious=? ;)

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"Fate" is a pre-determined path that we MUST follow

That's not what i meant, you believe somthing, you have to take something for granted, it takes fate, as you already know english is my second language and you should respect that, instead of trying to missunderstand me whenever it's possible.
Jul 24th, 2000, 06:05 PM
Gen-X

Harry
I will try and keep it short for you ;)

Explain how a universe that has no beginning is "created"?

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Given the 'hate of murder' topic, though... Why do you fear death?

I believe you have misunderstood the problem. There is no fear of death, there is the reluctance to have someone else choose the TIME of that death. Here is the fundamental difference.

I have a right to life, and to choose that life. That someone else takes that choice away from me is what is repugnant with murder... not the fear of death itself, not the ceasing to exist part, nor even the impact on others... but the fact that I have had taken from me the "right" to decide my own fate.... Something every man should have.

I live by 2 rules in my life :

1. Do not intentionally FORCE someone to do something they don't want

2. Do not intentionally HURT someone unless it is something they want

Everything else in life I think in some way fits into those 2 rules and I think it is clearly obvious that murder, theft and everything else fits in there nicely.

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do you actually know why?

Yes and I have explained it here for the second time.

At what point are you failing to understand my explaination of EXACTLY what the problem with murder is?

VirtuallyVB
I would continue to say unbalanced and incomplete.

Everything in moderation... The earth was formed from things that were positive and things that were destructive. ANY entity, be it worldly or not that is composed completely of only "positive" things would be completely unbalanced and one-sided. You require the temperament of BOTH sides to be able to truely see things.

It is one of the basic principles of Eastern Philosophy... Yin and Yang. What is good if it does not have evil? What is shadow without light?

You do confuse me though. You use "Free will" to talk about the type that is not free to choose... and "will" to talk about the type that is. How can one NOT misinterpret whe you use the word "Free" in a context that goes against its meaning?

Kedaman
English is your second language and while I respect that fact that doesn't give you an excuse to say what you like and not have the "concepts" challenged.

All you ever seem to say in your posts is the exact opposite to mine... you state something as if it stands up on its own merrits and say it like a child "I'm not you are!, no I'm not you are!"

I have neither the time nor the inclination to even bother replying... I am taking the advice of some other people on here in not getting dragged into a lengthly discussion with someone who it has been proven to my own satisfaction is diametrically opposed in his views and whom I personally believe can not see reason.

You have the same view of me and so you should be thinking the same thing... but funny enough, your thoughs seem so alien to me, confused and jumbled I guess you will think something different.

Either way, I appreciate your attempts to describe what your opinions are but lets not waste everyone elses time by simply clashing on things we know are not going to change
Jul 24th, 2000, 09:46 PM

Will versus Free Will

I say we don't have a free will, but we do have a will. Since the negative is on the free will, those statements will tend to look like we are not free (which IS what I am saying).
Jul 24th, 2000, 10:18 PM
Gen-X

VirtuallyVB

Ah. I think I kind of, perhaps understand what you are saying.... though you are saying it under the context of God actually existing so perhaps that is where my confusion came in (Its hard trying to put on your "God does exist" hat in order to look at things from other peoples point of view sometimes).

The way I see it is this... Nothing is random in our universe... everything is as a result of a billion, billion, billion influencial factors between an almost infinate amount of matter.

As has been showed with Chaos Theory (Now Complexity Theory) what we perceive as Randomness stems from our inability to calculate the sum of all the factors in play.

Notice however that not only are we unable to calculate them but we are also unable to "change" those factors (accept the major ones like getting out of the way when a car is coming). Therefor this makes it as close to "free will" as we are ever likely to have.

If the influencial factors are minimal, such as walking without a barrier and only having air resistance, downward gravity and a few other factors... we are free to move as we please.

If however the infuencial factors are major, such as a wall is in front of us or our path falls away to a chasm, then we are unable to take a particular action as a result.

So as far as I see things, even though at a sub-atomic level we really don't have any choice at all, it is the culmination of a nearly limitless different interactions that provide us with what can be macroscopically described as the freedom to choose our own path.

Funny enough that kind of contradicts what I said months ago about there being some level of randomness at the core when you get down far enough but I have learned since then something about the nature of complexity theory.
Jul 25th, 2000, 12:25 AM
kedaman

Gen-X, maybe i should clarify what i'm saying so that you don't taking everything for "alien, confused and jumbled"

Just pointing out that as usually we don't get along, but several times, we can talk reasonable, let's just make up a rule:
We don't offend each other or start using sarcasm anytime you find something confusing, or irrational. Instead, i could explain if you just asked, OK?

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Funny enough that kind of contradicts what I said months ago about there being some level of randomness at the core when you get down far enough but I have learned since then something about the nature of complexity theory.

Oh, nice we can agree on something at least. I just read and wondered when you changed your mind.

Will vs Free Will
Hmm, I don't think there is too much difference, maybe in scope;
Free Will (as i think) Is a certain switch between 0 and 1, you make a digital choise from one thing to another. Some times you have to make complex decisions which you have a system of several switches, several yes/no anwers that you answers to and find your path of acting. An important dimension here is, Bad vs Good, which can be binary on an simple decision or degreed, if you have several decisions.

How does this system work?
Your mind, your brain is asking you qwestions, like "do I really need to go to work today? I'm so tired." You anwer Yes/No, meaning (and here's your conscience taking actions) you could choose to go to work or stay at home and continue to sleep. If you get a bad feeling later that you should have got to work, it's probably that you choosed the bad alternative, and the more Bad vs Good swiches you turned Bad, the more you regret it.

This is some kind of method God Uses, something integrated with the concept Free Will that, you will be punished for choosing the wrong alternative, by yourself.

Now I don't want to pull the bible into this, but i've heard that 2/3 (which may also be considered as the majority) of us, are going to choose heaven before hell, Good before Evil, God before Devil. (maybe 2/3 is such a magical constant just because of some digital switches)

This may sound like a good reason to have God's creation around, instead of sorrow or being anxious about the results. Gen-X mentioned the dark side a lot, but something says me that it's just 1/3 of the whole cake.

So while we assume universe is NOT Random, we can also assume God has total control of what he does, he is in other words both omniscent and omnipotent. That would be logical if he had to do the decision, to let universe begin (or start existing, just don't refer to time with "begin")

The point is that Our Existance, implicating God choosed to give his idea a meaning, is a proof that Humanity was a good idea. So don't be disappointed with Life.

[b]Infinite Time in both Direction[b]
Surely you think this explains very well how universe works, but actually infinity just makes a jump over the problem. A scientists job is to Find out, Explore, Explain, not to put infity into each unsolved problem (Actually they hate it when they get infinity in their calculations)

But for creating Infinite Time, why wouldn't it be possible to create a such thing? For God it must me as easy because for him everything is possible. Actually wouldn't it be harder to put the breakpoints where it starts and stops:
[_ _ _ _ _ TIME _ _ _ _ _]
_ _ _ _ _ _ TIME _ _ _ _ _
Dunno, it's not a programming issue so God would do as he wanted to do, nothing stops him, at least i don't think that matters at all.

For God, only thing that comes first is Humanity, with Free Will, so he put that first on the list and made universe to fit the rules he made with Free Will. I mean that Univese is a product of us, that Univese is meant for us, therefore Time could be just put into [ ] or not depending on us.

When you throw a dice, you will only get what it should be, it's modelled to fit you, if you win a money game, (which changes your life), then it's the dice that was modelled to get a 6 instead of a 1.

So my point was that Time's just totally irrelevant in this issue (God's Existance)

Ah, Why can't i get sleep? it's 8AM
Jul 25th, 2000, 04:22 AM
HarryW

The only thing I am failing to understand is why you are totally stuck thinking in the same way about this all the time. Why is murder a bad thing? Again, I think it is a bad thing, but saying "because I don't like it" is just not an answer. Does the universe give you rights? No, civilisation has granted you rights. Leave that behind and consider the true meaning of murder. Where is the harm in it? Well, people suffer mentally (physical pain included), but that is in the mind. Nobody has innate rights, that's something we have tried to establish to ensure people have a good standard of living.

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it's just a concept created from your observations, it's only in your mind;

What kedaman said was perfectly valid, what makes murder disgusting to you is in your mind.

Just because someone says something that you can't immediately understand, it doesn't mean it's a ridiculous statement or that you should try and make them out to be a fool. You're only making yourself look bad by thoughtlessly slating everything kedaman says.

I can't explain how a universe with no beginning is created. I don't have a big problem with the concept though, because if God exists then I don't think time would limit Him. He would be omnipresent, anywhere and everywhere in all dimensions (ie. including time). If you were to hypothesise for a moment that God exists, would you consider Him unable to create an infinitely long, straight piece of string? I personally wouldn't, and at the same time I would not be able to explain how He would do it.

Also, what's with all the capitals? There's no need to shout, we can all read perfectly well. It just aggravates people, but then maybe that's what you want.

I appreciate the 'keeping it short' bit though, good on ya ;).
Jul 25th, 2000, 08:36 PM
Gen-X

Harry

You keep asking "but why?" and I keep giving you answers.

Q: "Why is murder a bad thing?"

A: Because it takes away my choice to live

Where did I ever say "because I don't like it"?

My life is my choice, my actions are my choice.. as long as I do not violate that choice in other people then I am free to do what I want.

Murder is the violation of that choice.

Which part of this are you failing to understand? At what point are you drawing the conclusion that simply because I repeat my answer which holds perfectly I am "stuck" on something?

You breath air don't you? Why? Because you "like to"? No... Because its something built into you... an involuntary action performed by your body as a result of your genetics getting you to survive.

"Murder" is the antithesis of survival and therefor any organism with sentience will consider the termination of its existance as a bad thing.

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Nobody has innate rights

Murder is a human term... applied to the killing of one "HUMAN" by another "HUMAN". Very few people will say the killing of a pig for eating is "murder" (unless they are activists). That is the difference.

A bear in the woods that kills a wolf to protect its young isn't considered a "murderer".

Therefor as the term is completely human and it is only used in the context of our own civilization (from where the word came from) then yes we DO have innate rights based on the exact same reasons we used to develop the word in the first place.

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What kedaman said was perfectly valid, what makes murder disgusting to you is in your mind.

Actually it is more about perspective than mind. If I was the one killing another human being I wouldn't find it disgusting because I am still alive... if the shoe was on the other foot I would feel differently.

What makes murder "disgusting" is the fact it goes against the genetic desire to survive, pure and simple.

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Just because someone says something that you can't immediately understand, it doesn't mean it's a ridiculous statement

Exactly. But failure on the part of someone who says something to see a clear deliniation of fact, who overlooks an answer when it is given, avoids ever mentioning the answer and then proceeds to maintain their own answer without evidence IS considered to make a ridiculous statement.

If I make a statement and someone disagrees, they provide the proof of their disagreement. I then use their proof and show what holes it has. That shows that I have HEARD their answer and replied to it.

Explain to me how the violation of the survival instinct to maintain life is my own "mind" deciding it is disgusting? All forms of life will exhibit this trait and they don't have "minds".

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I can't explain how a universe with no beginning is created

Then you cannot say someone elses explaination is wrong. Thats like saying "Your wrong, I don't know why but you are wrong". That is stupid.

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If you were to hypothesise for a moment that God exists, would you consider Him unable to create an infinitely long, straight piece of string?

I would consider the fact that if it is an instantaneous creation of an infinate entity (such as time) then it would indicate everything that ever HAS happened and ever WILL happen has already happened... If that is the case and everything is all said and done as far as God is concerned why even start it in the first place?

Why create something that you have already begun and ended? What is the purpose?

If you believe that God created an infinate time then that completely invalidates any "purpose" in life because a purpose is an "END" to which you attempt to reach and considering there is no end and it has already been determined means there isn't a purpose.

So which is it?

Or are you going to maintain that we have a "purpose" to being here, we are heading in a direction to achieve something and that God already knows whether we got there in the end or not?

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Also, what's with all the capitals?

They are used, as it the occasional bolding, or italics to give emphasis to areas where I believe they are deserved. Shouting is the complete capitalization of a sentance. A SINGLE word being capitalized is for you to give emotive factors to what I write. If I were talking to you I would give those words emphasis... If you don't like it then obviously you fail to understand the meaning to the word "communication".

Why did you put a smiley face at the end of your reply? And why did you quote the "keeping it short"? Isn't that so you can be emotive?

Why then do you think you are the one who decides what is considered valid ways to do it and what is not?
Jul 26th, 2000, 12:22 AM
Patch

the experience

I have proof that God exists and the bible is true. I have the experience noted in the bible. I received the Holy Spirit with the evidence of speaking in tongues. I was baptised by full emersion. This the salvation that the bible talks about. It's an actual experience that is given from God that you don't forget. It changes your life radically and is acutal proof God exists whether you like it or not.

On the cration question, a day can be translated as a period of time. God created man on the 6th day and formed Adam first then Eve on the seventh.
Jul 26th, 2000, 01:23 AM
Gen-X

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I have proof that God exists and the bible is true

1. "Show" us this proof?
2. How do we know you are not a lunatic?
3. How do you know you weren't hit on the head and daydreamt it?

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a day can be translated as a period of time

You know this is what I find really strange. The Bible is written so that we can read it right? And it uses terms that WE can understand because its MEANT for us to read right? And when it says "It must be 10 cubits long" it is talking about a HUMAN measurement so we can get it the correct length right?

So why all of a sudden would God write the word "Day" and mean a Millenium?????????

He said "6 Days" and he created it in "6 Days"... If he really meant it took him 6 Million years to create then he f*&#cking would have said "And on the 7 Millionth Year he rested".

I just love it when crackpots like you stumble into here... with less than 20 posts to your name and start preaching as if the sun shone out of your a**hole.

:mad:
Jul 26th, 2000, 01:51 AM
frank ashley

Gen-X,

Right on!

Surely this proves that the bible is a game of semantics.
Jul 26th, 2000, 04:46 AM
HarryW

You just said that murder is bad because it takes away your choice to live. Well why is that bad? What's wrong with that? It's taking away your choices, yes? It's the removal of choice that you have a problem with? Well what is implicitly bad about the removal of choice other than the fact that you don't like it?

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Actually it is more about perspective than mind. If I was the one killing another human being I wouldn't find it disgusting because I am still alive... if the shoe was on the other foot I would feel differently.

What makes murder "disgusting" is the fact it goes against the genetic desire to survive, pure and simple

In that case, if someone does not find murder disgusting are you saying it's a genetic problem? Are murderers all mutants?

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What makes murder "disgusting" is the fact it goes against the genetic desire to survive, pure and simple.

This is exactly what I am saying. Exactly it. 'The desire to survive', you said it yourself. It is a desire, it is a thought, an emotion. Instinctive or not, it is in your mind. You yourself said that animals do not object to murder. You also said animals don't have minds. Well... don't you think that might be linked?

And even though you disagree, I hold my comment that nobody has innate rights. It is part of our philosophy on life as human beings.

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I can't explain how a universe with no beginning is created

Then you cannot say someone elses explaination is wrong. Thats like saying "Your wrong, I don't know why but you are wrong". That is stupid.

You're right, that's very true. And that's also why I never said anybody was wrong about it. My exact words were

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I also don't think that the universe needs a beginning to be created.

I don't think it needs a beginning to be created.

What I did not say was that the universe was created, or even that my opinion was right. Nevertheless it is my opinion. I think you are confusing me with someone who holds deep religious beliefs about these issues. I am intrigued by both sides of the argument.

The objective of that statement was to bring up the idea that maybe time could be infinite in both directions and also the universe could have been created. If you disagree with that then that's fine. I am not going to try to force my opinion on this on anyone, I'm just stating what I think.

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