If capitalism is so badly flawed...

Wow, 4 pages in as many hours. impressive.

I only read a handful of messages on this thread, but I think that makes me
an expert on what everyone is "really" trying to say...

so let me make one thing clear:

I like capitalism. Without different sized letters and such, how would we
distinguish between a lumpy pillow and a guy named Lumpy Pillow. As in Mr. and Mrs. Pillow.
Also, I think the beginning of sentences look much better when capitalism is applied.


What was kedman saying about perception and reality?

mendhak

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It is not highly unstable. I have already shown how it IS stable. It has withstood several 'catastrophes' in the past remarkably well, and even the example I stated, 9/11, goes on to support this fact. Also, a consequence of capitalism is inequality, it is not driven by it. Capitalism is driven by profits.

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I stand by my conclusion that capitalist ecomonies are unstable. They lead to boom/bust scenarios (as is evident when capitalism was most left to it's own devices in the 1920'2 and 1980's). Currency and stock speculators don't like stability. There's money to be made (and lost) when there's big waves in the market.

Capitalism needs inequality because it needs society to be divided into the haves and have nots. It uses advertising to create envy and feelings of inadequacy to drive individual desire to attain more capital.

I admit that it is no use comming up with idealistic notions that are unrealistic but I also think that those who defend capitalism have idealistic and unrealistic notions about what capitalism can achieve.

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Originally posted by simonm
mendhak

I stand by my conclusion that capitalist ecomonies are unstable. They lead to boom/bust scenarios (as is evident when capitalism was most left to it's own devices in the 1920'2 and 1980's). Currency and stock speculators don't like stability. There's money to be made (and lost) when there's big waves in the market.

Capitalism needs inequality because it needs society to be divided into the haves and have nots. It uses advertising to create envy and feelings of inadequacy to drive individual desire to attain more capital.

I admit that it is no use comming up with idealistic notions that are unrealistic but I also think that those who defend capitalism have idealistic and unrealistic notions about what capitalism can achieve.

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OMG... I completely agree with you simon..... I think I might have to go and have a lie down;)


:D

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OMG... I completely agree with you simon..... I think I might have to go and have a lie down

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Naturally, everything I say makes sense. When one begins to see clearly, that fact becomes evident...:p

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Originally posted by simonm
mendhak
Capitalism needs inequality because it needs society to be divided into the haves and have nots. It uses advertising to create envy and feelings of inadequacy to drive individual desire to attain more capital.

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Time out.

Capitalism does not "use" advertising, people do.


any more of that, and I'll give you a yellow paper.

JPicasso

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Capitalism does not "use" advertising, people do.

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Does that affect the validity of my point?

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Originally posted by simonm
mendhak

I stand by my conclusion that capitalist ecomonies are unstable. They lead to boom/bust scenarios (as is evident when capitalism was most left to it's own devices in the 1920'2 and 1980's). Currency and stock speculators don't like stability. There's money to be made (and lost) when there's big waves in the market.

Capitalism needs inequality because it needs society to be divided into the haves and have nots. It uses advertising to create envy and feelings of inadequacy to drive individual desire to attain more capital.

I admit that it is no use comming up with idealistic notions that are unrealistic but I also think that those who defend capitalism have idealistic and unrealistic notions about what capitalism can achieve.

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Well, first, Spongebob Squarepants is right. Capitalism doesn't use advertisement, it's the companies, or related entities.

Capitalism is driven by profit.

I think we can all agree on this. This is the main point of capitalism. It's the companies that depend upon and also use advertisements for their own propagation. That really has nothing to do with anything here at all. :rolleyes:

Humans are however, driven by greed. It's their carnal desires for materialistic possessions that cause them to 'twist' around the very essence of capitalism to suit themselves.

We've all agreed that capitalism is flawed (Yes, I agree too). For some reason, I was on the defensive with capitalism.

however, any other alternative 'solution' to the so called problem with capitalism we see here will only be corrupted by us, so as to suit our needs.

Any "idealistic ideas" we come out with can be defeated merely by "human nature"...

mendhak

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Any "idealistic ideas" we come out with can be defeated merely by "human nature"...

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Capitalism is flawed, not because of the failed and corrupted attempts to implement it, but because the fundamental belief that "if you let the natural forces of the free-market play themselves out, the economy will grow and society will reap the benefits" is simply eroneous.

A capitalist economy has to be reigned in and controlled and then you're left with some sort of bastardised system that is heavilly regulated and top heavy.

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Originally posted by that guy...er...



A capitalist economy has to be reigned in and controlled and then you're left with some sort of bastardised system that is heavilly regulated and top heavy.

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Not applicable solely to capitalism, as this is going to happen to each and every ideology or system introduced (or forced) upon us in the future.

So all our points seem to be converging, don't they? Has the debate died off?

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Has the debate died off?

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I suppose it has. I was hoping for some grand and far reaching ideas for a completely new system for the future but there have been few forthcomming.

I can't really complain because I have also failed to come up with anything that new but I object to the defeatists who claim that there is no point in tring to improve capitalism as it is the best we can expect.

It's not going to be easy but we need to come up with something (well, not necessarilly us in particular but us as society).

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Originally posted by simonm

I suppose it has. I was hoping for some grand and far reaching ideas for a completely new system for the future but there have been few forthcomming.

I can't really complain because I have also failed to come up with anything that new but I object to the defeatists who claim that there is no point in tring to improve capitalism as it is the best we can expect.

It's not going to be easy but we need to come up with something (well, not necessarilly us in particular but us as society).

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Simon, er.. simonm, I suppose there may be others out there (somewhere :rolleyes: ) who may have realized the same as we have, or already know it.

Perhaps people more able than us will come out with ideas that may start a quiet change or a quiet revolution to change the way everything runs. It may even be a transient shift, one we never realize.

It may even be possible that we're going through a transiet period right now, with it's ups and downs, and we'll eventually be settling on a mutated form of capitalism, which we may call mendhakism, because it will be the best.

This still doesn't mean we ought to 'give up' on this...

(and music plays in the background, the scene fades into the clear blue skies, as a bird flies over head... the bird is followed upto a smoke chimney where it chokes and dies)

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Originally posted by simonm
Let's not this turn into an argument about the nature of reality (by gum, we've had enough of those) or an attack/defence of the system of capitalism.

Stop defending capitalism and let's look at what sort of system could replace it. All this argument over attacking and defending capitalism is holding back to quest to improve society. Let's move on.

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Simon

Depends on definition of Capitalism, the US is held up as an example of Capitalism and free market economics ..... so what about the US agricultural quotas and tarriffs, that ain't free market economics.

Currently Australia is being pushed into a capitalist model, which has lead to the health system going under, education systems being put on user pays (read you get one if you're a rich person), and the total destruction of the Australian way of life.

Capitalism sucks big time .... bring back socialism;)

I'm not going to read all three pages to see if this was brought up yet, but I think a Communist form of economy could possibly work better. Note I said economy, not government.

Remember communists

http://www.vbforums.com/

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Originally posted by JPicasso


Time out.

Capitalism does not "use" advertising, people do.


any more of that, and I'll give you a yellow paper.

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Capitalism doesn't do a lot of things that are a result of Capitalism. I agree wholeheartedly with what simon had to say about it.

Commercial enterprise thrives on making people feel bad about themselves. No matter what we do, we're never "good enough." Personally I think that's really sick. Every time I get in my car I see some woman plastering wax all over her face and I personally thought she looked better without it. But try and convince a woman she looks better without make-up. Advertising is extremely powerful and is one of the consequences of Capitalism.

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Originally posted by cafeenman

Advertising is extremely powerful and is one of the consequences of Capitalism.

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Not to mention one of the main means by virtue of which capitalism propagates. And hence stays. It's come to a point where this is now an accepted and indetachable norm of life.

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Originally posted by mendhak


Not to mention one of the main means by virtue of which capitalism propagates. And hence stays. It's come to a point where this is now an accepted and indetachable norm of life.

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Tell me about it. :rolleyes: One of the stupidest things I've ever had anyone ask me was if I was going to stay up to watch the SuperBowl commercials.

Hi! Do you have one of those cute little green tops Jennifer Anniston was wearing in 'Picture Perfect'?

I agree with you Cafeenman... and you too mendhak...

Advertising is a sick sick result of Capitalism..and one of the things I personally hate the most about Capitalism.... the resulting paranoia and fear of inadequecy that it creates is so destructive and negative..

You are not a real woman unless you buy XYZ brand of tampon... never mind the fact that they are made with a product that ultimately will give you a 500% higher chance of developing cancer.. or that they were made in a third world country by a 12 year old girl who could never afford them...

Or another one I really love... the **** food industry.. McDonalds in particular and their insideous advertising to children... God that pisses me off!!!! And Coca Cola/Pepsi et al.... Coke is the number one breakfast beverage in the States... and you guys wonder why your kids are so ****ed up..

I am not being holier than thou.. it really annoys me.. the rampant crass commercialism of things that I love... like Music and Film.. and the raping of childrens minds by people whose only motivation is to make more and more money..

Having said all of that... i have done the only thing it is in my power to do about the situation... I no longer watch TV, and I don't eat or allow my child to eat Crap food.

If we all did that the system would have to change

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Originally posted by DragonFly
I am not being holier than thou.. it really annoys me.. the rampant crass commercialism of things that I love... like Music and Film.. and the raping of childrens minds by people whose only motivation is to make more and more money..

Having said all of that... i have done the only thing it is in my power to do about the situation... I no longer watch TV, and I don't eat or allow my child to eat Crap food.

If we all did that the system would have to change

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DragonFly, I do not think you are "holier than thou." In fact:

1) I stopped watching TV over 10 years ago and don't miss it a bit. In fact, I frequently challenge people to turn it off comletely (no cheating) for 6 months and then turn it back on and see what they think. That's how it happened to me. I didn't have a tv and when I turned it back on I saw it as nothing but drivel.

Also, just turn the volume all the way down and watch. It looks idiotic. Now do the same thing with a quality BBS program and you'll see it still looks good even without volume. You would be really surprised if you knew how much volume is used to cover up how bad a program really is.

2) I don't buy anything by Tommy or anything else that is over priced and has their logo emblazened across it. Nothing pisses me off like paying to advertise. I didn't take delivery of a car once because the dealer drilled holes in the trunk to put his plastic logo on it. I had specifically told them in advance I would do that and they did it anyway and then tried to sue me. I got a lawyer and nothing every became of it. I also got a car without a logo.

Check this out. It's my shot at manufacturers/advertisers. I like it but I don't think anyone besides me has ever seen it. No one ever visits my site. :(

http://www.paulkjohnson.com/paulco/b...estatement.htm

AHEM. *cough cough*

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Originally posted by mendhak
AHEM. *cough cough*

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No humans ever go to my site I mean.

Well good for you Cafeenman... it is pleasing to meet someone who has also decided not to buy into the crapola that is spoon fed via the media... especially a seppo;)


I visited your site and had a look.. most amusing..in a sad but true kinda way :(


Somehow we have to find a balance.. between personal liberty in thought and action.. and the removal of the excesses and greed of the current version of Capitalism.


I didn't say it before.. but excellent topic for debate Simon :)

I think what we're searching for is what gives the most people peace of mind without impeding other people from achieving the same thing. In other words, it's there if you want it, but you have the right to be miserable if that's what you want as well. It's not given to you, but it is a right. Something like that. I'm not wording it well, but I think you get my drift.

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Originally posted by DragonFly
Well good for you Cafeenman... it is pleasing to meet someone who has also decided not to buy into the crapola that is spoon fed via the media... especially a seppo;)

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You left out "humourless" and "git." I'm sure it was merely an oversight. :)

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Originally posted by cafeenman

You left out "humourless" and "git." I'm sure it was merely an oversight. :)

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:eek: Thanks for the reminder;)



Naw... you have your moments.... in fact for a big fat seppo sumo you're OK ;)




:D:D:D

As long as we're on a tangent, here's one that I not only hate, but I think is dangerous and subversive.... MTV. The values our kids get from watching that all day are scary. And it has way more power than a parent could have.

MTV: We want you to act responsibly. So even though we think you should screw everything that moves, be sure to wear a condom. See? We did something responsible! Praise us now please.

that wasn't pathetic, Mendhak. I think it makes a good point actually.

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Originally posted by cafeenman
As long as we're on a tangent, here's one that I not only hate, but I think is dangerous and subversive.... MTV. The values our kids get from watching that all day are scary. And it has way more power than a parent could have.

MTV: We want you to act responsibly. So even though we think you should screw everything that moves, be sure to wear a condom. See? We did something responsible! Praise us now please.

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Well personally I don't have your views about sex;) It is an American phonomenon... That sex and talk of sex should be censored... I say more Sex.. and reduce the violence that kids are exposed to.. They are going to have sex;) and I for one would hope it was sensible protected sex....But hopefully they will never be in a violent situation in their whole lives (although for you that is less likely)


But the comments about MTV.. and the whole Hyper Entertainment industry.... is one of the reasons why the peer to peer sharing is going to increase expedientially... they are actively promoting the heck out of these so called bands.. and the kids all have to have it.. but can't go to Mom and Dad every week wanting the money for new singles..

OK, I didn't really get my point across there very well. I don't have a problem with sex or think it should be censored either. It's that we don't have any relational skills in America (watch any talk show for proof).

It's not the sex part of MTV that I think is so dangerous. It's the overall value system they teach our kids. If all they were doing was having sex and not having kids, then that would be cool with me.

Basically, what you said, DF, is what I meant. The reason I through in the sex part is because of MTV trying to pretend like they give a damn about anyone other their their banker.

Sorry to drop my 2 bobs's worth in here but I couldn't resist- actually that now is .20c since 1966 in Australia (converted to decimal currency) - capitalism - communism - any other ism. Im 54 - have been programing since 1966 in assembly.COBOL,FORTRAN, BASIC, GWBASIC, VB since 1993, VB3,4,5,6,VB.net,Access 2,97,2000,2002. started my own business with my wife in 1982 writing Trust Acounting Software for Real Estate Agents. Got shafted by everybody, but still tried to support the people we employed that worked hard for us. We grew our business to have over 1500 clients throughout Australia and employed 35 people.

Things got tough in the late 90's and we lost our business. But we did our best to make sure that the people who worked for us were looked after. This is what capitalism is about - peope taking risks to ensure their future -but also to ensure the future of the people they class as valuable contiributors to their business . It all depends on how the Principals view the value of their employees. We lost a heap. If we were living in a Communist Society maybe they would have given us some funding to bebuild ???
Only trouble is there is not many communist societys left /_ and I dont want to move to North Korea.

Get a life - make a mistake - move on -dont expect other people to solve your own problems - :) ;) :p

briancps - I'm sorry you lost your business. I understand the part about "nobody is going to take care of me but me." But I don't get what you're saying about capitalism vs. communism. It sounds on one hand like you're saying capitalism gave you the opportunity to make a go of it and you had some bad breaks. On the other hand you're saying that communism would have looked out for you when that happened. What didn't I get?

Ok Cafeenman.. sorry I misunderstood :)



Briancps... nothing like a dose of "get a life" especially in an ideological/philosophical discussion :rolleyes:

:confused:

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Originally posted by Nightwalker83
:confused:

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:D :D ;) :D :D :p

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Originally posted by briancps


If we were living in a Communist Society maybe they would have given us some funding to bebuild ???

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Your chances of rising as you described in the first place were extremely modicum, had you been living in a Communist society. So, I doubt such a situation would even arise in the first place.

Although, if the two could be combined somehow... the virtues of capitalism and communism, without any cinches and ideological confusions, it just may be an idea worth considering. But I do see many people crying "unfair" if such an ideology were to be implemented.

g'day
Please don't take my questions as an insult - I appreciate your concerns
have you ever tried to run a business in Australia ? ever heard of the GST
Where are you based ?
Have you ever tried to run a business ??
Have you ever tried to employ people - programmers - support personnel - network engineers ?? - and have to pay them every week because thay have families to support as well.
I'm not trying to be flippant - but there is an inredible minefield to negotiate. I managed to get our most valuable employees positions with other organizations. As an employee, think about what your employer would do if they didn't think you were that valuable ??


I'm just doing contract prograrmming at the moment in VB6 and VB.NET because it is so less stressful
:)

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Originally posted by DragonFly




:D :D ;) :D :D :p

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;) ;) ;) ;) :p :p :p :D :D :)

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Originally posted by briancps
g'day
Please don't take my questions as an insult - I appreciate your concerns
have you ever tried to run a business in Australia ? ever heard of the GST
Where are you based ?
Have you ever tried to run a business ??
Have you ever tried to employ people - programmers - support personnel - network engineers ?? - and have to pay them every week because thay have families to support as well.
I'm not trying to be flippant - but there is an inredible minefield to negotiate. I managed to get our most valuable employees positions with other organizations. As an employee, think about what your employer would do if they didn't think you were that valuable ??


I'm just doing contract prograrmming at the moment in VB6 and VB.NET because it is so less stressful
:)

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uhm, what are you talking about? I failed to see how this relates to the topic at hand. My answer wasn't directed at you, perhaps you should read it again.

Or tell me where I overlooked. I'm inside cleavage right now.

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Originally posted by briancps
g'day
Please don't take my questions as an insult - I appreciate your concerns
have you ever tried to run a business in Australia ? ever heard of the GST
Where are you based ?
Have you ever tried to run a business ??
Have you ever tried to employ people - programmers - support personnel - network engineers ?? - and have to pay them every week because thay have families to support as well.
I'm not trying to be flippant - but there is an inredible minefield to negotiate. I managed to get our most valuable employees positions with other organizations. As an employee, think about what your employer would do if they didn't think you were that valuable ??


I'm just doing contract prograrmming at the moment in VB6 and VB.NET because it is so less stressful
:)

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G'day Brian... personally I am in Sydney.. but there are members from all over the world.. and no they do not necessarily know the details of running a small business in Australia.

Sounds like you have had a tough time of it.. and I am sure we all empathise..


But you are completely missing the point of the thread I think.. it is meant to be a discussion on an ideological or philosophical level about what possibilities there are for the future of Capitalism.. or an alternative to it..

Naturally we have all had fun getting our pet hates and agro's out in it.. but the basis of it is..

What alternatives are there to the flawed system we currently have.