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Sorry, Katie, but I wouldn't mind subjugating others. ;)
Aside from that, I completely agree with SD. That is what I've been ranting about for so long.
You are right, Kovan, Lucifer was not an angel. He was a character in a fable. :) Other characters included Adam, Eve, and God.
Katie, you know I worship you no matter how (or if) you're dressed :DQuote:
Originally posted by barrk
That's dissappointing, SD! I was sure if I dressed up in studded leather and used my big whip you would worship me.:eek:
SD
Thank you Sir SurfDemon! Right back at ya!!!:cool:
do you not believe that Adam and Eve ever existed?Quote:
Originally posted by CiberTHuG
Sorry, Katie, but I wouldn't mind subjugating others. ;)
Aside from that, I completely agree with SD. That is what I've been ranting about for so long.
You are right, Kovan, Lucifer was not an angel. He was a character in a fable. :) Other characters included Adam, Eve, and God.
if not then you are going to hell cus i know a Adam and an Eve
:)
from now on, my motto is, "your going tohell"
hehe
beachbum is already going, you might as well accompany him :)
:D :D :D
I'm sure there are people named "Adam" and "Eve", but the whole legend of the first couple in the Garden of Eden is, well... fictional. It was created right along with the whole idea of divine gods. Even the concept of Hell is a make-believe. :)
I guess my motto should be "and you're driving the bus," or "heaven is a ward".
Posted in another thread as well:
You know, I have to the best of my ability answered all of your questions. If I missed some I apologize. If you take the time to do the research yourself about Jesus you will find that there is irrefutable proof of his claims.
Let it be known, I do not pretend to know ALL the answers.
But I share what I do know..
And it is amazing that in this world today so many people have veered so far left that when anything is presented as TRUTH, it is viewed as intolerable.
Does anyone want to argue with gravity? Does it always work or not?
You may say prove it! And I say use the faith God has given you and you will find out for yourself.
Interesting that you use the direction left. Seems you think we are too free will. You sound like a, oh wait, you are a Christian, and free thought is bad.Quote:
Originally posted by jesus4u
And it is amazing that in this world today so many people have veered so far left that when anything is presented as TRUTH, it is viewed as intolerable.
Look, you are presenting something as proof with no evidence. I have a book around here that says dragons and faires are real. There, I'm presenting it as "TRUTH". Is it the truth? No.
You can write a lie on a peice of paper just as easily as you can write the truth.
Has anyone complained about it? Guess it's still working.Quote:
Does anyone want to argue with gravity? Does it always work or not?
Okay, this is where you are a complete ****ing moron!!!Quote:
You may say prove it! And I say use the faith God has given you and you will find out for yourself.
Faith is mans ability to believe something without proof. Funny thing is, that same "faith" you have in your god can easily be transfered to faeries and dragons. Just because you believe in something, doesn't mean it is real.
Aside from that, I'm not arguing with you wether or not your god is real. I want you to acknowledge that your god, as you describe him, is a psychopath. That he created man out of vanity and that he forces worship through fear tactics!
My point is, no I don't think your god is real, so I'm an agnostic. But if your god exists as you describe him, then I want to be an atheist.
sorry Jesus is no psychopath!!!
more of MY proof
Everyone believes in something. No one can endure the stress and cares of life without faith in something that cannot ultimately be proven. Atheists cannot prove there is no God. Pantheists cannot prove that everything is God. Pragmatists cannot prove that what will count for them in the future is what works for them now. Nor can agnostics prove that it is impossible to know one way or the other. Faith is unavoidable, even if we choose to believe only in ourselves. What is to be decided is what evidence we think is pertinent, how we are going to interpret that evidence, and who or what we are willing to believe in .
Scientific method is limited to a process defined by that which is measurable and repeatable. By definition, it cannot speak to issues of ultimate origin, meaning, or morality. For such answers, science is dependent on the values and personal beliefs of those who use it. Science, therefore, has great potential for both good and evil. It can be used to make vaccines or poisons, nuclear power plants or nuclear weapons. It can be used to clean up the environment or to pollute it. It can be used to argue for God or against Him. Science by itself offers no moral guidance or values to govern our lives. All science can do is show us how natural law works, while telling us nothing about its origins.
Some have assumed that an evolutionary explanation of life would make God unnecessary. This overlooks some problems. Even if we assume that scientists will someday find enough "missing links" to confirm that life appeared and developed gradually over great periods of time, laws of probability would still show the need for a Creator. As a result, many scientists who believe in evolution believe also that the universe in all of its immensity and complexity did not "just happen." Many feel compelled to acknowledge the possibility or even likelihood of an intelligent designer who provided the ingredients for life and set in motion the laws by which it developed.
Mankind has been described as incurably religious. In unguarded moments of trouble or surprise, in prayer or in profanity, references to deity persist. Those who would dismiss such thoughts as bad habits or social vices are left with unanswerable questions. Denying the existence of God does not dispel the mysteries of life. Attempts to exclude God from the language of civil life does not eliminate the persistent longing for more than this life has to offer (Ecclesiastes 3:11). There is something about truth, beauty, and love that makes our hearts ache. Even in our anger with a God who would permit injustice and pain, we draw upon a moral conscience to argue that life is not as it ought to be (Romans 2:14-15)). Even unwillingly, we are drawn to something that is more rather than less than ourselves.
Israel is often used as an argument against God. Many find it difficult to believe in a God who would be partial to a "chosen people." Others find it even harder to believe in a God who would not protect His "chosen nation" from the boxcars, gas chambers, and ovens of Auschwitz and Dachau. Yet from the beginning of Old Testament history, Israel's future was prewritten. Together with other prophets, Moses predicted not only Israel's possession of the land but also her unparalleled suffering and dispersion throughout the whole earth, her eventual repentance, and then finally her last-days restoration (Deuteronomy 28-34; Isaiah 2:1-5; Ezekiel 37-38).
Many who doubt the existence of God have reassured themselves with the thought, "If God wanted us to believe in Him, He would appear to us." According to the Bible, that is what God has done. Writing in the 7th century BC, the prophet Isaiah said that God would give His people a sign. A virgin would bear a son who would be called "God with us" (Isaiah 7:14; Matthew 1:23). Isaiah said this Son would be called, "Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace"(Isaiah 9:6). The prophet also said that this child would die for His people's sins before seeing His life prolonged and honored by God (Isaiah 53). According to the New Testament, Jesus claimed to be that Messiah. Under the oversight of a Roman governor named Pontius Pilate, He was crucified on charges that He claimed to be the king of Israel and that He had represented Himself as being equal with God (John 5:18).
The reports of the first followers of Jesus agree that He did more than just claim to be the long-awaited Messiah. These witnesses said He won their trust by healing paralytics, walking on water, and then voluntarily dying a painful, undeserved death before rising from the dead (1 Corinthians 15:1-8). Most compelling was their claim that many witnesses had seen and talked to Christ after finding His tomb empty and before watching Him ascend visibly into the clouds. These witnesses didn't have anything on earth to gain by their claims. They had no hopes of material wealth or power. Many became martyrs, claiming to the end that the long-awaited Messiah of Israel had lived among them, that He had become a sacrifice for sin, and that He had risen from the dead to assure them of His ability to bring them to God.
Some who believe in God do not take His existence seriously. They reason that a God great enough to create the universe would be too big to be concerned about us. Jesus, however, confirmed what the design and detail of the natural world suggest. He showed that God is great enough to care about the smallest details of our lives. He spoke of one who not only knows every move we make but also the motives and thoughts of our heart. Jesus taught that God knows the number of hairs on our head, the concerns of our heart, and even the condition of a fallen sparrow (Psalm 139; Matthew 6).
The Bible says that God designs the circumstances of our lives in a way that will prompt us to look for Him (Acts 17:26). For those who do reach out for Him, the Scriptures also say that He is close enough to be found (Acts 17:27). According to the apostle Paul, God is a Spirit in whom "we live and move and have our being" (Acts 17:28). The Bible makes it just as clear, however, that we must reach out for God on His terms rather than our own. He promises to be found, not by just anyone but by those who admit their own need and are willing to trust Him rather than themselves.
You have only described him as such. You must explain!Quote:
Originally posted by jesus4u
sorry Jesus is no psychopath!!!
Is it true that your god created man out of vanity and that he enforces worship with terror and fear?
no Jesus created us with a choice to obey. Just like parents are supposed to put boundaries around their children so they won't get hurt.
WE as mankind do not obey Him. His laws are to help us and not to hurt us!
It is like the Law of the Land. You may speed on the highway if u choose but the Law is still there no matter what you do. And the nice ole policeman will still pull you over if you are caught speeding!
But your parents never say, "love me, or go to your room". That is simply bad parenting.
Laying laws for our own (Thou shalt not kill) is one thing. But demanding that we pay homage just because we were created?
Why did your god make man? There is no great purpose. He just wants us to love him. So he was alone, with no one to love him? So he created us? That sounds juvinille.
that is where I believe Man goes astray. We have lost the sense of love and belonging. Yes, it is true, God wants US to have relationship with Him. This is a great mystery but God doesn't need any of us but the Bible does teach that God wants relationship with us.
Simple but yet the truth.
There you go, he made us for no other reason but to love him (vanity). And he gave us free choice, just so our love would be real.
But yet, he still uses terror to insure we make the "right" decission. Why is that? Why does he say, "those that love me shall be given ever lasting life and shall not perish from this Earth"? And what is the deal with punishing our sins, and counting our lack of love for him as a sin?
It sounds like you have an issue with being loved by someone?Quote:
Originally posted by CiberTHuG
There you go, he made us for no other reason but to love him (vanity). And he gave us free choice, just so our love would be real.
Remember what I posted earlier? Mankind as a whole has not obeyed God's laws. Thus He considers this rebellion. He is so loving that He even sent Jesus to die a horrible death for OUR rebellion so that we could freely benefit from His sacrifice. It's not like God said you disobeyed? now perish and burn. NO! God has provided a way of escape. It is US who don't like His way out.Quote:
Originally posted by CiberTHuG
But yet, he still uses terror to insure we make the "right" decission. Why is that? Why does he say, "those that love me shall be given ever lasting life and shall not perish from this Earth"? And what is the deal with punishing our sins, and counting our lack of love for him as a sin?
Now that is awesome! :)
See, that is where you are wrong. Your god didn't sacrifice his son to save us for our benifit. He did it because if he didn't, then he would have to punish us all, and he would have no one to live and worship him in heaven. :)
I'm sorry, your god is selfish and vain. It would turn my stomach to worship such a foul creature.
ok then...
If you can find peace elsewhere then more power to ya! IF not, remember Jesus will always be there for you.
i've been thinking a lot last night and today...
i've lead quite a sheltered life.... a privileged life at that too..... i have everything i need, a loving family, food, shelter, friends...... i attend a private christian school.......
i come from the Mennonite background.... we are as a rule pacifists, and the bible is a huge part of our religion....
in my community, most of my friends are christians as well, and I haven't seen much of people that simply refuse to even begin to believe in god at all....
now however, it is apparent that many of you don't..... if you're still reading this thread, i have a feeling that you are somewhat curious about it all.... of course, why else would you still be here? if you are so disgusted at the thought of a god, obviously you've stopped reading this post.... you may say it is for entertainment... you laugh at the ludicrous ideas presented here... well, i don't believe it....
we are not forcing anything upon anyone.... why are we doing this? god has lead us here obviously....
god is so complicated.. we can't begin to fathom the innerworkings of his plan... why people die, why there is evil and hatred... well i have some personal feelings about that....
we were made, free! adam was made free!..... adam sinned.. this is quite symbolic... since we have been given this freedom, we have the choice... to sin, or not to....
everyone sins...... because of this freedom, people die.. there is hunger, there is hatred... god has let us be... we are the ones who have sinned.....
could god intervene? SURE! but, he won't... since we have FREEDOM......
i don't know what to say..... god is real..... he's had a huge presence in my life... prayer works..... god saves....... this is all we are trying to do... spread the good news about god.. that god saves...
tygur.... i guess, overall i do believe jesus is not god..... jesus was a separate being than god... god created him... but because of the special bond between jesus and god, this is why i say metaphorically, jesus is god.....
Redth, there is no problem in you believing in a god. But you must understand, you are doing so blindly, without any proof. And if you are believing in the same god that J4U believes in, then you are believing in an apparently vain and jealous god who rules by fear.
I don't know whether god exists or not. But that god scares me.
what proof more does one need than the bible and jesus, and even better, the way he has touched my life!?!Quote:
Redth, there is no problem in you believing in a god. But you must understand, you are doing so blindly, without any proof. And if you are believing in the same god that J4U believes in, then you are believing in an apparently vain and jealous god who rules by fear.
I don't know whether god exists or not. But that god scares me.
you know, god really doesn't appreciate being called vein and jealous...... but, he won't hold a grudge against you.. he loves you......
he LOVES you...... how is that vein... how can be loving someone so much, no matter what they do be vein?
look at the science of our world..... do you notice how delicately things are made? how every little bit in chemistry interweaves with everything else.. all these relations... how about math? was all this done by chance??? this intricate of a system woven by chance? by a big bang? i think not....
why? i don't really know.....
you say because we don't know all the answers to god, that we obviously are blind.... that is called faith..... if god was to come down and speak to everyone ... with a big booming voice, sure, everyone would believe in him..... that is how things become corrupt... over history, this has been proven... if god would just allow anyone to come into his kingdom, and everyone knew about god and believed because god clearly revealed himself, everyone would expect going to heaven.... that is where evil comes from...
you see, faith is like being rewarded.. those who have faith will be rewarded..... faith is to filter out the fakes.... anyone can say they believe in god and not truly mean it....
tygur, j4u, and myself... we seem to come from slightly different variations of christianity.... i don't quite believe some of the things tygur and j4u believe, but then they don't believe some of the things i believe in... HOWEVER... we do all share one common belief... that god is god, and is a loving god, who we should put all of our faith into....
it does sound rather grim sometimes how you will not go to heaven and be saved if you don't accept god into your heart,... but it's the truth... and the truth is, it's quite easy to repent and accept god.... god will forgive, no matter what you do, or have done.. he's always there waiting for you to forgive... we just have to take that small initiative to ask for forgiveness... it will be granted.......
I'm not scared of a fictional character, and I'm not in this thread to seek answers. I'm here because I like having a good laugh at how blindly people believe in something which cannot be proven without questioning it. Is questioning your belief such a bad thing? And I mean real questioning, not trying to argue a case for which you already think you know the answer.
This for me is the same entertainment as laughing at people who dress up as star-trek characters and speak Klingon.
You make a number of statements about how we are here looking for answers. I'm afraid that you might be surprised how many of us non-believers lead incredibly full and happy lives. I have lived as a Christian and it bought nothing but pain and misery. Now that I am free of that religeous yoke I enjoy life to the full, I'm not subserviant to anyone or anything.
You have probably been told by your teachers that all non-believers are bad people. I'm not, I'm very kind, very generous and help out everyone I can. I live by what you would call Christian values, the difference is, I do them because it makes me feel good, not because I'm being threatened by eternal damnation if I don't.
SD
I think you need to check out my new religion SD, look a few posts back ;)
surfdemon,
im in no way trying to say that non-believers are bad people.... i have plenty of non-christian friends..... they're great people... many of them greater than 'christians' i know.....
just because you can't see, or touch something..... doesn't mean it's not there....
again, i'll state that faith is believing... but i believe my last post explained my view on it all....
how else can you explain people like mother theresa..? eternally happy, by serving others... why else would be be here testifying ? you can't understand the burning desire for christ that dwells within us... earthly riches mean nothing... try reading the book of revelations..... you cannot take your earthly possessions to heaven with you....
i would like to speak another point about god being a greedy god.... or jealous god....
well, god sent his son jesus down for us... to give his life for us.... it doesn't stop there.. jesus did NOT come down as a king, but rather, a servant.... he came to server god's people, to set an example for all humanity... we denied him.. we killed him... but this is how it had to be... jesus died for us...
if you don't believe any of this, well, there's nothing i can do about that except to keep trying to get you to know god..... and to pray for you.... to try to get you to understand...
Does it involve cute young (post puberty) nubile virgin women (Got be a very specific religon).Quote:
Originally posted by crptcblade
I think you need to check out my new religion SD, look a few posts back ;)
I hear that in Islam they believe that if you die in battle you get 40 virgins... my first thought was ... does it specify women, young virgins ... are they cute... there could be a good reason why they're virgins... they could be 50 year old hags...
SD
Er! Like I said, it feels good to help others.Quote:
Originally posted by Redth
surfdemon,
how else can you explain people like mother theresa..? eternally happy, by serving others...
I don't mind you believing something different from me, but I do find your unswerving belief that you are right and I am wrong to be incredibly arrogant. I have no wish in turning you away from your beliefs which keep you happy. Why oh! why then must you keep trying to turn me away from my beliefs. Don't you understand. We didn't ask Jesus to die for our sins, we did not kill him, we did not commit original sin, yet it's insulting for you to keep tarring us all with the same brush. Don't get me wrong, I understand that you zealots feel you have a duty to try and convert us all, and we also have the ability to ignore this thread, but I won't, as I have a morbid curiosity as to how you can be so easily misled, and how you spout arguments which fall down under the most casual examination. :D Have a great evening.
SD
Whatever you need...we'll make arrangements at the Panty Shanty.Quote:
Originally posted by SurfDemon
Does it involve cute young (post puberty) nubile virgin women (Got be a very specific religon).
I hear that in Islam they believe that if you die in battle you get 40 virgins... my first thought was ... does it specify women, young virgins ... are they cute... there could be a good reason why they're virgins... they could be 50 year old hags...
SD
:D
well, i'm not trying to say that i am right and you are wrong, plain black and white like that...... but, so long as you are listening, im trying to get you interested in the word of god.... just as you have the freedom to try and preach your beliefs, i have the same...
but answer me this.... why are christians testifying about their religion a lot more than some non-christian testifying their beliefs?? why? don't you think it's possible that non-christians are missing something? you wonder and you say how we are misled... that statement only makes me realize that god's word has not been spread enough, and that is what i am here for... certainly something so big as christianity that has survived so well through the ages, that has a whole book written by prophets through god's inspiration about it is not all wrong....
ask me why i would truly believe in such a god? surely something has inspired me or lead me to this state... i can't explain it.. if i didn't know in my heart for sure that there was a god, i would have long abandoned the thought christianity....
but it is too real... like i said... you cannot yet understand.... you haven't allowed god to enter your heart.... once you do.. if you do, you would understand...
I mean no offense but....Quote:
i come from the Mennonite background
Aren't Mennonites the religion that doesn't marry so they go out and recruit new people in order to carry on their sect?
heh nope, mennoites indeed do marry..... we're no cult or anything... look here:
http://www.mhsc.ca/index.asp?content.../M46620ME.html
im not strict mennonite.. meaning we don't dress or act differently than the rest of society (besides excercising our beliefs....)...
I see this thread still hasn't gone anywhere. It's still a case of:
"If you'd only believe in all this stuff, then you'd see it's all true"
I don't know why you bother. Between that and all the bible quotes (J4u: your big explanation was looking like it might be interesting until it started using bible references as its only backup) the preachy posts are pretty much entirely accounted for.
Doesn't anyone have any kind of reasoning for their belief other than 'oh just let God into your heart' or 'the bible says this <insert vaguely profound statement here>' ?
Come on people. Try harder.
My faith relies in the power of my own mind. I think that is from a movie, but its a good description.
I believe in my own existence, and that's all I need to go on. I don't need a God, or the promise of eternal happiness to live my life.
:)
are you not listening to what i say??? i already explained why god has not just come along and said... "look, im god.. here, i'll show it by doing this"...... it is FAITH!!! ... although, there are some scientific provings....
here's a good article for reading..:
http://www.yfiles.com/sign.htm
especially the last line:
Quote:
Why doesn’t God show himself to all non-believers? God wants faith and proof would force faith. God has always chosen the slow difficult way. Respecting human freedom regardless of the cost.
Okay, I read it. It is an article explaining how the content of the bible affirms the existence of God despite his apparent lack of appearances. I didn't need to read an article to figure out that the bible has an explanation for God's lack of public relations.
The last line, which you have emphasised, is all well and good and is possible, but it is just one of a great many possibilities. There is no compelling reason to believe that over the possibility that, for instance, God doesn't show himself to non-believers because non-believers don't spend so much time reinforcing their beliefs and becoming so obsessed that they think they actually witness God.
I remember a peculiar, yet amusing, story about one particular woman who had such an experience. She was in the passenger seat of a car which was driving along a main road, when she suddenly saw Jesus drawing his arms towards heaven, with people floating up, guided by him. Overjoyed, she opened the car door and jumped out, thinking Jesus was guiding everyone to heaven and her time had come. The car was, of course, still moving, and she was killed/seriously injured (I don't remember which now). In fact, what had happened was that the car she and the driver occupied had passed a man who had pulled over his truck (as you Americans would call it I believe) on the side of the road. He was on his way to a big toga party, so he was wearing robes and sandals. He also happened to have long dark hair and a beard. He had stopped the vehicle because the tarpaulin on the back had come loose, and he was trying to save the contents which were now floating away. They were sex dolls, inflated with helium, intended to provide some kind of entertainment/decoration at the toga party.
That's an example of the kind of state of mind of a devout believer. Where a non-believer would have seen it and wondered what was going on, a devout believer would immediately recognise it as something divine and have faith in it, without stopping to question it. It's an admittedly silly situation, but there is a moral to the story.
That's not all that unusual...There are several police reports of me jumping out of the car after my sex doll.
:D
(Actually, I just use it to get into the car pool lanes;))
I disagree. It's an example of someone who just didn't think. If she had the sense to think about what was going on and maybe look a little closer before jumping to conclusions, she might not have jumped out of the car while it was still moving. I'm sure there are plenty of situations when someone mistook one thing for something else and made some rash decisions because of it.Quote:
Originally posted by HarryW
That's an example of the kind of state of mind of a devout believer. Where a non-believer would have seen it and wondered what was going on, a devout believer would immediately recognise it as something divine and have faith in it, without stopping to question it. It's an admittedly silly situation, but there is a moral to the story.
jesus4u and Redth
So you two believe in the trinity. I should've known. When I get the time, I will have to be sure to post my reasons for believing that the bible doesn't support the trinity.
Some thoughts on hell
Read Jeremiah 32:35. Surely a God who implemented a hell as a place of eternal torment wouldn't be so repulsed by the idea of people burning their children as a sacrifice. It never even occured in His mind for people to do such a thing.
Tygur, that's right, she didn't think. Thinking for yourself isn't encouraged. Perhaps that's why all we are getting in this thread in the way of evidence is bible quotes. Why think, when you can just quote the bible?
I don't mean to imply that religious people are stupid, just that they aren't open to ideas because they've already made up their mind about what they perceive to be by far the most important thing there is.
Today's quote of the day!
Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Commentary: Since we as humans have rebelled against God by not obeying His commands we are thus called sinners and sin has a penalty(separation from knowing God). But God extends His arm to us through Jesus Christ and offers eternal life through trusting and believing that Jesus died for the penalty due to us for our own sins.
Care to make a comment?