Corona virus, China major city lockdowns, etc.

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This sentence already shows your IQ level or reading ability level. (Of course, it may be that my English is too bad)

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Programmers are the group of people with the highest IQ and strongest analytical ability. But the IQ and analytical ability of the programmers participating in this thread surprised me. Then we can imagine how low the judgment of ordinary Americans (or Westerners) is. This can be seen in the performance of the US government and the American people in the past few years. In my opinion, at least 50% of Americans have IQ and judgment abilities below the global average. The Internet media has caused a decline in the IQ and judgment of the entire world, but the American people have experienced the greatest decline.

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You really should stop with these kind of statements, it only shows your immaturity.

If you have a point to debate or argue then make it and defend your position, instead of denigrating people and places you dont know because they disagree with you or have opposing views. It really is a childish way to deal with things.

@FunkyDexter, @NeedSomeAnswers,

What I want to express is: Because the Western media and governments led by the United States have long used false information and rumors to deceive their own citizens, the judgment ability of their own citizens is gradually weakened, or even lost. This can be seen in many ways. Especially the extremely naive and ridiculous rumors about the "Xinjiang Massacre (genocide)" actually have a huge market in the West. In my opinion, this is an insult to the IQ of all Chinese people.

It is precisely because of the loss of judgment that some people here think that China has died of millions of people due to COVID-19, which is also a kind of humiliation and harm to all Chinese people.

I am not expressing my opinion, I am just stating the facts: facts that happened in China. China has performed very well in all aspects (including human rights), and these are far beyond your imagination. More importantly, this country is still making continuous progress and improvement.

What I said has nothing to do with patriotism. I just can't help myself want to tell you the real situation in China. It is a human instinct to tell the real situation around oneself.

In addition, China entered a low-IQ society from 2009 to 2013, but China went out of the "low-IQ whirlpool/vortex." I don't think the United States and other Western countries can get out of this "low-IQ whirlpool/vortex"

The "color revolution" initiated by the Western Internet media destroyed many countries, but failed to destroy China. Now, these Internet media are destroying their own country.

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Originally Posted by FunkyDexter

I agree with his data but not his conclusions.

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Which conclusions?

The only ones very relevant here are those directly related to what became the pandemic. I think he is suggesting there is a high undisclosed death count over the past few years, and that much of it might be COVID deaths.

COVID-related birth decline is another matter, and perhaps due to social patterns under lockdowns and fears of potential parents about raising kids in this environment. Many parts of the world are seeing that, and I just read a local newspaper article on it in my neck of the woods yesterday.

Analysis of records in several Mediterranean countries, in particular Italy, show a pattern of infection through the vector of Chinese guest workers that goes back almost 3 years now and at least 2 years. If true it would suggest that SARS-CoV-2 variants have been active within China long before the Wuhan outbreak.


If you want his broader geopolitical view of China see Life After Trump, Part VIII: The Crisis List—China but most of that has no direct bearing on the pandemic discussion.

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Which conclusions?

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That China would become irrelevant, for one. He talks about declining population and touches on the reasons for it but the conclusion he's drawing is that China is losing global influence. He explicitly states his position at 00:55.

His argument contains logical fallacies though:-
1. the demographic predictions he makes are purely around births and deaths. They don't account for migration and therefore do not predict actual population.
2. that a declining population would necessarily lead to a decline in global influence. It could but it doesn't necessitate it.

These unsubstantiated logical leaps mean that you cannot draw his conclusions from his predicates.

I understand that he uses covid as a contributing factor to the rate of decline (almost certainly true, I agree) but it's a predicate, not a conclusion.

Haven't watched your second link yet but I'll give it a punt. He seems an interesting guy, I just disagree with him on the above.

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What I want to express is: Because the Western media and governments led by the United States have long used false information and rumors to deceive their own citizens, the judgment ability of their own citizens is gradually weakened, or even lost. This can be seen in many ways. Especially the extremely naive and ridiculous rumors about the "Xinjiang Massacre (genocide)" actually have a huge market in the West. In my opinion, this is an insult to the IQ of all Chinese people.

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Turn that argument around and you have an equally (in)valid argument that would conclude that Uyghur's are being ethnically cleansed. It would have exactly the same amount (or lack of) evidence that you have presented and be every bit as offensive to Chinese people as you are currently being to the rest of the world.

The difference is that there's plenty of evidence that Uyghur's are being ethnically cleansed. We've got first hand accounts, satellite photographs of the re-education centres and even photographs taken from inside the re-education centres. You've dismissed that evidence (on the basis that the rest of the world is stupid) and asked for more evidence. From that we all know that you would dismiss any further evidence provided in the same fashion. There is literally nothing we could provide you that you would not dismiss as false, so that leaves the only response: the question I asked you earlier.

One of the following must be true:-
1. The whole of the rest of the world must be stupid enough to believe the false evidence that you have dismissed.
2. That your government is lying to you and the evidence you have dismissed is actually valid.

Which is it? Make your choice. You seem to be opting for option one but you've only got to read it laid out starkly to see how arrogant and bonkers a position that is.

It's not clear that China would allow sufficient migration to make up for the declining population. If they take the Japanese approach, things might not go well. They don't seem to tolerate their own ethnic sub-groups very well, so becoming an immigrant society might be unpalatable to them.

Was anybody else amazed that the guy in the video, who comes across as some kind of analyst, chose to do his punditry by what appears to be selfie in a meadow? That's an interesting choice.

@SearchingDataOnly: Why do you do this to yourself? You've already stated that getting into these things messes with your health and well being. Just say no. It's self-destructive.

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@FunkyDexter, @NeedSomeAnswers,

What I want to express is: Because the Western media and governments led by the United States have long used false information and rumors to deceive their own citizens, the judgment ability of their own citizens is gradually weakened, or even lost. This can be seen in many ways. Especially the extremely naive and ridiculous rumors about the "Xinjiang Massacre (genocide)" actually have a huge market in the West. In my opinion, this is an insult to the IQ of all Chinese people.

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What your expressing though is not representative of how I or indeed how many people in the west consume media or news. News in the Western world come from many sources and is not controlled by the government.

Your perception of us seem to be as a blanket mass of people who's opinions are controlled and that couldn't be further from the truth.

You seem to think that many of us are being fed fake news because of this report on the Xinjaing Massacre, but you dont know what news we have read or not read, your making an assumption. Also your making an assumption that we have all read the same reports and that is also probably not true.

Finally on this point reports or rumours on the Xinjaing Massacre are not that big news over here in the UK and I expect they are not in the US as well. I mean its news but its not on the front pages or anything, you are mistaken if you think that it dominates our news coverage

One thing that is clear is there is a big cultural difference between us in that in the west it is fairly common thing to express negative views of government, whether that is our own or other peoples, this is not a reflection of what we think of the people inside those countries but just of the government, from my experience many Chinese people closely align there identity with there government and can see criticism of there government as a personal insult when normally it isn't meant as such.

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It is precisely because of the loss of judgment that some people here think that China has died of millions of people due to COVID-19, which is also a kind of humiliation and harm to all Chinese people.

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I personally dont believe this, and I believe that FD has said this previously China has actually had a good response to the Pandemic mainly due to the fact it has had to deal with SARS and MERS recently and had a plan in place.

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I am not expressing my opinion, I am just stating the facts: facts that happened in China. China has performed very well in all aspects (including human rights), and these are far beyond your imagination. More importantly, this country is still making continuous progress and improvement.

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Your not though, not really. Fact are provable by some sort of evidence your not really providing any and therefore what your putting forward is you opinion on that particular issue and thats fine, in many cases so are we.

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What I said has nothing to do with patriotism. I just can't help myself want to tell you the real situation in China. It is a human instinct to tell the real situation around oneself.

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To me it seems to be both patriotism and wanting to tell us the real situation in China,

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In addition, China entered a low-IQ society from 2009 to 2013, but China went out of the "low-IQ whirlpool/vortex." I don't think the United States and other Western countries can get out of this "low-IQ whirlpool/vortex"

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You really need to get away from this Low IQ idea, IQ is just an intelligence test and clever people are capable of believing in things that are not true

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The "color revolution" initiated by the Western Internet media destroyed many countries, but failed to destroy China. Now, these Internet media are destroying their own country.

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I dont even know what the "color revolution" is, never heard of it !!

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Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker

@SearchingDataOnly: Why do you do this to yourself? You've already stated that getting into these things messes with your health and well being. Just say no. It's self-destructive.

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Thank you, Shaggy Hiker. My mental state is really bad recently.

Please don't worry about China, the Chinese will do their own thing. Please take care of all of you, I hope everyone here will always be in good health.

I'll leave this thread again.

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Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker

Was anybody else amazed that the guy in the video, who comes across as some kind of analyst, chose to do his punditry by what appears to be selfie in a meadow? That's an interesting choice.

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That was a bit different. Might have been out writing on his deck and wanted a quick video, or it might be against a green screen with "sunlight" from his right. He's moved to video presentations rather than travel for the last two years because... pandemic.

Usually we don't see these kinds of folks physically on-stage today, but generally more like this example:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RbOKDALuv8Y

I wasn't objecting, mind you. I rather liked the setting for that video. Looked like a nice place. I just thought it a pretty odd way/place for such a video. We've seen so many of these people over the past year. The background is generally an office, often with clearly intentional items on the shelves intended to reinforce the message, or possibly with a notable lack of distractions in the background. This one...was different.

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Originally Posted by sapator

I wouldn't believe any numbers in particular, especially is Greek since the main epidemiologist, on a interview a couple of months ago slipped it's tongue and said that they are also counting, cases that the person would be dying anyhow, like cancer , brain tumor etc and had covid at the time, to coivd cases.
From there and forth the numbers mean nothing to me.

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Agreed.
Here in Italy we have known for a long time how they are counted.
Anyone who has a hospitalisation, for whatever reason, if they die after a positive swab is counted as a Covid death. Whatever the cause of death.
Nobody looks at medical records to find out the cause of death. If he tested positive for Covid, then he is counted as a Covid death. Only the swab determines the cause of death.
One who said this is a regional president. The other is head of the Operative Unit of General Anaesthesia and Reanimation and Cardio-Thoraco-Vascular of a Milan Hospital, who used these exact words:
- "If unfortunately a person has a heart attack, is brought to "my" hospital and tests positive for a covid swab, if then he dies, he will be counted as having died of Covid.
He is listed as covid dead, not heart attack dead.
This must be clear to all of us.
Therefore, the data (Covid deads) that place Italy in an unflattering position will certainly be revised.
These data have shocked and frightened many people, and an elderly person alone at home "does not feel the need of them". "-

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zono2uKbMB4

My thoughts: yes, the news programmes have carried out an incessant and hallucinatory media terrorism, which in my opinion borders on the Italian crime of 'procurato allarme' (false report/caused alarm/false public alarm)[Aroused alarm is defined as the performance of acts that trigger emergency procedures without the presence of a real danger, ranging from minor cases (e.g. the use of a fire alarm in a school, without the presence of a fire) to events of greater social impact. ] [Any person who, by announcing disasters, accidents or non-existent dangers, causes alarm to the Authority or to bodies and persons exercising a public service is guilty of the offence of "false public alarm".]

... a lot of psychological damage ....
... all of us, some more, some less....

https://www.vbforums.com/images/ieimages/2021/05/4.jpghttps://www.vbforums.com/images/ieimages/2021/05/5.jpghttps://www.vbforums.com/images/ieimages/2021/05/6.jpg

Covid is coming to the sea! The masks, the maaaskkkss! Briiinnng ooonn the maaaaskkkkksss!!! (The guy with the gloves!Lol!)
Fortunately if they do this here (that they plan to), I know of a cove, very low crowded, I'll go there. Of course I would not be using a mask in the summer but there is that damn 300Euros fine that they are terrorizing us with,so, the cove seems quite nice. If that fine wasn't present I guaranty you that only 5% would be using masks even as we speak.
Word in Greece is that elections would possibly be held in July. That is not of course a certainty but if they do that then TIME FOR REVENGE!!!!!!!!!

A question, why haven't you be voting for Salvini in Italy? From what we know here, he is better than what you have there as government. Of course I don't know much about the Italian government but Greek and Italian mafia have quite similar characteristics and since todays mafia is the government in Greece, I would have expected the same in Italy.

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Originally Posted by reexre

Agreed.
Here in Italy we have known for a long time how they are counted.
Anyone who has a hospitalisation, for whatever reason, if they die after a positive swab is counted as a Covid death. Whatever the cause of death.
Nobody looks at medical records to find out the cause of death. If he tested positive for Covid, then he is counted as a Covid death. Only the swab determines the cause of death.

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Death is a funny thing. COVID is a virus. It can't kill you directly. All it is doing is causing your body to create more versions of the virus. I suppose it might be possible, if you had NO immune system, for it to so thoroughly hijack so many of your cells that they stop producing anything other than virus, in which case it might kill you. Otherwise, COVID is never what kills you when you die of COVID. That's not because somebody is misleading you, it's just because it has no means to kill you. It isn't toxic, nor does it produce toxins, the way some bacteria do. It's not causing your cells to create mini-guns with which to shoot you.

So, by your rule, COVID has killed nobody, EVER. The roughly 400,000 deaths in the US above the expected number....were just a coincidence.

Now that's pushing it to the other side.
Of course covid haven't killed heart, cancer , brain tumor etc. They where adding it to the toll to terrorize us.
Covid is a flu-e there are many covid's like it but this one is mine. My covid is my best friend. It is my life. I must master it as...Ooppsss... Sorry got carried away.
Anyhow, these things are no secret by now, they where adding, regular flu had 0 death toll this year in Greece, covid is the reaper.Pharmaceuticals and maskaceuticals making billions.
Covid sideffects had killed the same percentage give or take the flu did, but they counted everything to covid, they also pushed people to hospital unnecessary and the thing escalated, so..
Anyhow, side A will not convince side B here so this is pointless. I'm just waiting for the elections to see who is the "crazy" one. And imagine if the current party wins! Lol, I would get the vaccine then :bigyello:

Edit:
Again....The guy with the gloves!! LOL! I'm laughing like a fool since I saw that! Areee youu a Doctorrr?! LOL!

I finally know what this thread reminds me of.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=adkWiJA9xR0

You may have to watch to the final 2 minutes to see the connection.

I don't understand, so I will just go ahead and say that Greeks in Byzantine empire where the first that created the modern violin (aka lira) that completed it's shape in Italy.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_violin

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Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker

....
So, by your rule, COVID has killed nobody, EVER. The roughly 400,000 deaths in the US above the expected number....were just a coincidence.

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Reread what I wrote. I never said that.
I talked about how they are counted.
And surely among those numbers there are those who died from other causes.
I repeat, if at the time of death (or shortly before) you test positive for covid, you are counted as having died of covid. And we know that being covid positive is not strictly related to being ill.

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Originally Posted by reexre View Post
Agreed.
Here in Italy we have known for a long time how they are counted.
Anyone who has a hospitalisation, for whatever reason, if they die after a positive swab is counted as a Covid death. Whatever the cause of death.
Nobody looks at medical records to find out the cause of death. If he tested positive for Covid, then he is counted as a Covid death. Only the swab determines the cause of death.

---

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Originally Posted by sapator

.....

A question, why haven't you be voting for Salvini in Italy? From what we know here, he is better than what you have there as government. Of course I don't know much about the Italian government but Greek and Italian mafia have quite similar characteristics and since todays mafia is the government in Greece, I would have expected the same in Italy.

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No, absolutely not Salvini,
To me he is "the man without ideas", in perpetual campaigning.
He does polls to know public opinion, then when he speaks he says what most people want to hear. But in concrete terms he doesn't go in that direction.
Here in Italy all the parties are in agreement, there's practically a single party.
There are no opposition parties. (Only 'fratelli di italia', but it is in the 'opposition' only for the purpose of making people believe it exists. But in reality it acts like the government).

After the resignation of the Conte government on 26 January 2021, (caused by the criminal Renzi)
on 3 February, the President of the Republic then summoned Mario Draghi to the Quirinale to give him the task of forming a new government.
Nobody elected Draghi.
The President of the Republic decided not to proceed with democratic elections. (Also using the excuse of the pandemic, because of which, elections could have increased the contagion)
Do we realise?
No democracy, and Draghi was probably put there only to advance the interests of multinationals (richer than entire states) and/or banks and finance. Certainly not in the interests of the population.
In Italy I don't see anyone on the horizon who can represent me.

.... removed

Quote:

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Originally Posted by reexre

Reread what I wrote. I never said that.
I talked about how they are counted.
And surely among those numbers there are those who died from other causes.
I repeat, if at the time of death (or shortly before) you test positive for covid, you are counted as having died of covid. And we know that being covid positive is not strictly related to being ill.

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It's true that you never did say that. I assumed that you were saying that those other deaths were misattributed simply because of the presence of COVID (I think it's an acronym, isn't it?). The virus is known to attack the heart, along with a variety of other less popular organs (the lungs are also kind of popular, but few have the guts to stand up for the colon). If a person dies, what ultimately causes it? For that, you have to be able to define death, which is becoming increasingly difficult.

If the point is to say that COVID is not all that dangerous, or that a bunch of deaths are being misattributed, you have to explain away the excess deaths. Sapator doesn't, because Greece was pretty much spared, but I'm not in Greece, and the US has a very large number of excess deaths. Deaths had been rising slightly for a few years (population had also been both rising and aging, so an increased death rate is understandable), but 2020 saw an increase that was more than ten times what would be expected. If that wasn't COVID, what was it? If it was COVID, then it was far from the ONLY cause of death, but it sure was a BIG cause of death.

Greece, spar...OK,I don't want to explain again. As I've said side A and Side B.

I want to stigmatize the governments.
Draghi Italy - corporate pawn
Mitsotakis Greece- corporate pawn + No1 idiot of Europe.
Baiden US - corporate pawn

I know fore sure that our "Genius" took his percentage of cash to promote German corporate vaccines but not sure about the others. Probably took the loot secretly? Because our is an idiot and he promotes German vaccines publicly.

Now.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7pT6_CxodVs
Go to 7:14 , 309 deaths in Israel that is only the 15,8 of the total side effects of the vaccine.
They also say that Israel will impose bracelets to vaccinated people so they can be tracked!! I hope with all my power to try to do that in Greece. PLEASE!!
Also if you want to go "by the book" look the video at 15:40 Greece vs India . So we are probably dying on the streets right now. Hmmm, I don't see nothing, hmmm, nop.

Anywho,since summer is coming and we are getting in that Greek island mood, I prefer to slip to the more humorous side of things from now on, unless something special comes by.
So: :bigyello: :D :) :wave: :eek2:

Covid vaccination side effects:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TDtntYkBvXQ

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If a person dies, what ultimately causes it? For that, you have to be able to define death, which is becoming increasingly difficult.

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It's simple really. There is only one cause of death, your heart stops beating. lol

I concur.
Vaccinated zombies and vampires would be tracked that way. :cool:

French President Macron has directly reprimanded the United States for saying that the so-called "vaccine patent exemption" is just an oral show. The United States says it wants to open up its patent rights, but in practice, it has left all the vaccines for its own use. So far, 100 percent of the vaccines in the United States have flowed into their own countries.

As of May 7, the COVID-19 vaccination rate in the UK (at least one shot) was 51.5 per cent, second only to Israel, 44.4 per cent in the United States, and 30.4 per cent in Germany and 24.6 per cent in France, compared with 30.4 per cent in Germany and 24.6 per cent in France.

Macron made it clear that discussing the intellectual property rights of vaccines is not a top priority. In order to make vaccines more widely used, countries should not stop raw materials and vaccine exports, and called on the United States to end not only the ban on vaccine exports, but also the export ban on raw materials for vaccine production.

In China, we can pick it up for free, but many people don't want to go because we don't have viruses here.。 If the virus can still be infected. Fortunately, our vaccines are all inactivated vaccines.In theory, Vaccine injection, generally will not be infected.


After the first needle has been more than a month, said to wait for their telephone notification, they can play over it?I don't know when I can get a second shot.

In fact, vaccines should be free of charge. Pharmaceutical companies subsidized by the state.How much collusion and corruption they have within them, we don't care about him, anyway, the people don't have to spend money.

Vaccines are free here, too.

Slightly out of date, and you can argue these are one man's opinions, but this guy is pretty plugged in:

The Ins and Outs of Vaccine Diplomacy

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The term you’re looking for is “vaccine diplomacy”.

It comes at a fortuitous time. The United States has backed away from the world. This isn’t a Clinton thing or a W Bush thing or an Obama thing or a Trump thing or a Biden thing, but instead a United States thing. The American people lost interest in playing a constructive role in the world three decades ago, and America’s political leadership has molded itself around that fact. Trump may have been instinctually and publicly hostile to all things international, but Biden is only different in tone. Biden’s Buy-American program is actually more anti-globalization than Trump’s America-First rhetoric as it is an express violation of most of America’s international trade commitments. TeamBiden says it wants to reestablish America’s global leadership…but it plans to do so without any troops or money. Sorry, but that’s not how it works.

Which makes the possibilities for vaccine diplomacy wildly interesting. The United States has no responsibility to provide COVID vaccines to the world. It can – it will – distribute them, but it will want something in return.

---

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WNxyZ9ptEw4

But it's Biden, who mocked Trump for Operation Warp Speed which brought us the vaccines. So do we trust this clown?

Dr. Strangelove, er, Fauci, caught red-handed again.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Cxm4g_cKrY

Funneling money to Wuhan lab biowarfare development.

Trust them guys, it's you trustworthy media. Don't use masks.
Ah that's funny, that is quite funny.

I'm waiting for a rash of public beatdowns of exposed vax-cheaters.

No, now the unmasked vaccinated will spread the disease to non vaccinated so the vaccinated will be locked down, and maybe shot down, ZOMBIE TIMEEEEE!!!! I'm coming for you!! Yeeeeehaaaaaa!!! :bigyello:
All of this get to show that nobody have a clue what is going on over here, but the golden rule is to do the opposite your media tell you. Orrr, now they tell you to lift the mask so you must obey.Obeeeyyy! Media Media, what you gonna do, what you gonna do when they lie to you.. Hahaha.

https://www.brighteon.com/ce4f8894-6...a-fcd9c1527bcc

It'll be interesting to see how it all plays out.

Many US States have not yet seen many of the newer and more infectious strains. Some of us who have though still have far too many new cases each day. With 45% or more still not fully vaccinated there are a lot of new victims walking around.

That isn't as big a problem if people try to follow the rules. But you know relaxing masking requirements for the vaccinated will just encourage more of the selfishly imprudent to stop masking too.

As vaccination rates level off all over and the newer strains start spreading faster (just a matter of weeks) or worse yet the even newer strains from India get here in force... there might be a lot of regret that Biden came out with this as part of his 2022 midterm election campaigning to put a few more CIA alums into office.

I doubt most countries have that sort of motivation, so I'd expect most of them to be far more cautious than this.

32 Celsius coming on Tuesday, lockdown for transportation will be over in 3 days. Let's go! Summer time!!!!
As it seems, they cannot impose vaccination for the summer and they will probably go on elections before October so, they can impose THIS! Impose THIS! Impose THIS! (there is a 2 hands and crotch gesture implied here not sure outlanders will know it but, you get the point :p )
I have an indwelling need to sneeze on someone's face!

Sorry summer fever is starting to gain on me :blush:

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Originally Posted by dilettante

It'll be interesting to see how it all plays out.

Many US States have not yet seen many of the newer and more infectious strains. Some of us who have though still have far too many new cases each day. With 45% or more still not fully vaccinated there are a lot of new victims walking around.

That isn't as big a problem if people try to follow the rules. But you know relaxing masking requirements for the vaccinated will just encourage more of the selfishly imprudent to stop masking too.

As vaccination rates level off all over and the newer strains start spreading faster (just a matter of weeks) or worse yet the even newer strains from India get here in force... there might be a lot of regret that Biden came out with this as part of his 2022 midterm election campaigning to put a few more CIA alums into office.

I doubt most countries have that sort of motivation, so I'd expect most of them to be far more cautious than this.

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Well, that's the most partisan way to look at it.

So, the new guidance is that those who are fully vaccinated don't need to wear masks. Would you prefer that they suppress that? Wouldn't that just give those video pundits you have linked to yet another thing to bang on about? Wouldn't that be EXACTLY the kind of disinformation that they are already looking for in every statement?

Well considering that "what they know" i.e. "the new guidance" is nothing new, most of those studies having been concluded, analyzed, but not covered in mainstream media months ago... we've already had suppression. The timing of the current flip in policy is hardly coincidence. Emailed political fund raising spam just increased and the junk solicitation and polling phone calls have too.

But ok, assume there is no political motivation here.

Perhaps the vaccine "hesitant" and non-masking folks can just prolong the pandemic until they "decrease the excess population" hmm? A sort of Dickensian Great Reset.

Media busted our..chops, today with non masking to vaccinated experiments in US .
So are you wearing mask now or not? Is the flue pandemic over so we can relax and go on vacation?What does your media dictate you?

It sure has the smell of a political move. Which has been a major disappointment I have with the CDC, through this whole pandemic. The daily deaths is still @ 600 - 700 a day. Why not wait another month till everyone that wants to be vaccinated has the opportunity. My guess is they think this will motivate the vaccine hesitant to get vaccinated. Might get a few but most true non believers will just take their mask off also.

I don't have a problem with people choosing not to get vaccinated, as long as they wear a mask until everyone that wants it or needs it has been vaccinated.

Really?? You say that these studies were analyzed months ago? Months ago, the percentage vaccinated was trivial. If you say "months" means two, then that would be mid-March, a time when most states weren't rolling out vaccines to any other than certain worker sectors and those above some age cutoff that was 60s or 70s. By then, what group would have made up those studies? The only group that COULD have made up those studies would have been the phase III trial participants. Alternatively, the data could have come from Israel, as they had more information on vaccinated individuals, but even that wasn't all that clear. So, what are these studies? I spend a few hours each evening reading various studies and the like, and those have been dominated by COVID stuff for...well for darn near a year, it's getting tedious. I never saw those studies, though. I'd be interested in seeing them.

However, I DO think there might be a certain 'politics' to that notice, but not the one you seem to be believing. It seems to me that this might be an attempt (which I think will backfire) to prod the vaccine hesitant to get off the fence in the right direction. I'd guess that they are hoping that saying, "get vaccinated and you don't need a mask" might prompt some who are dithering to take action. More likely, I think it will mean that mask wearing will nearly cease, even in states like this one where the vaccination rate may never top 50%. I'd say it is already happening. The big box stores near me all state mask requirements on the entrance, and I would put compliance at over 90% through the winter. I would now put compliance down around 66%. That might reflect the 40% of people with full vaccination....but I really doubt it.

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Originally Posted by sapator

Media busted our..chops, today with non masking to vaccinated experiments in US .
So are you wearing mask now or not? Is the flue pandemic over so we can relax and go on vacation?What does your media dictate you?

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Just because the CDC says something doesn't mean that is the rule. They just provide guidelines or suggestions. Each states has their own set of rules. Don't know what flu pandemic your talking about, we're still in the middle of a COVID - 19 pandemic that has killed almost 600,000 people here.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by wes4dbt

I don't have a problem with people choosing not to get vaccinated, as long as they wear a mask until everyone that wants it or needs it has been vaccinated.

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Pfffft! Yeah, that assumes people are actually going to be responsible about it... that ain't happening. If they haven't been wearing a mask all this time (or if they have, they've been bitching about it), then they're not going to wear one until they get vaxxed, if they even get vaxxed. And they're certainly not going to wait for others to get vaxxed because "MaH LiBeRTiEs!"

-tg

Yeah, just let's skip the usual.
Are you wearing masks or not now? If your president tells you not to use masks, do the states have the right to argue? I want to compare vs our media story.
Thanks.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sapator

Yeah, just let's skip the usual.
Are you wearing masks or not now? If your president tells you not to use masks, do the states have the right to argue? I want to compare vs our media story.
Thanks.

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Yeah, lets skip it. Trying to make jokes and minimalize the deaths of so many people isn't enjoyable to watch.

Yes I'm wearing a mask. The president didn't say NOT to wear a mask. The president doesn't make laws. As I said in the previous post, each state has it's own rules.

Aha.
That's what our media is trying to sell. That since the president obliged the people not to use masks and vax, that is a law and they must all do that.
Here is an info for you. Our home breed government pigs said that 30-39 vaccination is on 30% but the real numbers turned out with cross reference of the hospitals and ever government papers had to write is 6,9% .
Let the lying pigs lie.

Honestly, I don't know what the guildelines are any more around here... I do know that they aren't required per se... but that establishments can require them, but then there's nothing in place for enforcement. So they're not really required any more. Even now, schools are making them optional, with a waiver form parents can fill out. So.... yeah. Meanwhile we're also seeing a rapidly declining vax rate as well... so... who knows...

-tg

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sapator

Aha.
That's what our media is trying to sell. That since the president obliged the people not to use masks and vax, that is a law and they must all do that.

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You're going to have to explain that one. Are you saying that the US president obliged, or the Greek president? In the US, the president didn't say anything that I'm aware of, and seems to still wear a mask most of the time. He has no say over what states do, though.

In this state, the governor was pretty moderate, but that was too much for the legislature, which tried to force through a bill stripping the governor of any emergency powers for most things. Basically, the full legislature would have to authorize emergency measures in most cases, which is a pretty absurd situation. They did make a few exceptions from the sound of it, but it didn't matter, because the governor had to sign it and he did not, naturally. The legislature attempted to overturn the veto and failed. Still, that was the response: Don't respond, even moderately, or else...

It won't matter, though. Nothing they do has any impact on their careers, as long as it isn't explicitly illegal...and involves sex. Financial crimes are overlooked, apparently.

I have no idea what the rules are in Idaho, currently, either. Some establishments say they require masks, but they clearly don't. The local and state governments seem to be trying to put into law the principle that the ONLY response allowed to any similar situation is to ignore it completely. They seem to want to make sure that, if any deadly disease outbreak happens in the future, the government must do nothing.

Darn it, I'm back in for some quick snark and then I'm out again.

Masks vs. no masks, get the vaccine vs. don't. Herd immunity. I imagine that fully non-partisan people who understand infectious diseases can't watch anything these days without wanting to punch the people who are spewing nonsense. Have you noticed that people that have had Covid and recovered from it (who then have "natural immunity" for at least a period of time) aren't being figured in to any calculations of "herd immunity"? Any idea why that is? Because science doesn't matter unless it is convenient for it to matter nowadays.

As a US citizen, if it is my responsibility to help keep you, also as a US citizen, safe, then the speed limits everywhere in the United States should be no more than 12 miles per hour. Because at or below that speed essentially 100% of traffic accidents are non-fatal for all involved, including pedestrians. Anything above that, fatal accidents can occur. Sound reasonable? Ironically, it is illegal to drive that slow in certain circumstances.

I like to think that there are only a very limited amount of things that I am either legally or morally obligated to do to help ensure the safety of others. People can protect themselves by getting a Covid vaccine every 6 months (you know that's coming, right? You haven't heard a lot about it because the public just isn't ready for that bad news yet, though...) and wearing masks in public for the rest of their lives. But that doesn't mean everyone else should be legally obligated to do so as well.

I wasn't a fan of government imposed mask mandates from the beginning. I'm sure if people were fined or arrested for not following these guidelines, those would eventually be thrown out in court if challenged. That being said, I understand the logic behind them in the sense that it was probably the only way to get people to wear a mask. And that is a reflection on our society.

So, to bottom line it.

Should everyone have worn a mask in public buildings for the past year+? Yes.
Should everyone wash their hands after going to the bathroom? Yes.
Should everyone shower regularly? Yes.
Should everyone brush their teeth daily? Yes.

To me, those are all in a very similar category, but I would imagine most of you would only scoff if the last three became a legal obligation.

I'm out again, hopefully for weeks if not months.

Edit: Didn't even make it 6 hours. Can I be banned from posting in a thread I created myself? Damn...

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Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker

You're going to have to explain that one. Are you saying that the US president obliged, or the Greek president? In the US, the president didn't say anything that I'm aware of, and seems to still wear a mask most of the time. He has no say over what states do, though.

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No I don't know what your president did, that is why I am asking. I'm just saying that those sneaky rats of the media tried to pass this by saying: "US president said that vaccinated people must not use masks" and non vaccinated should fk off, that goes along with the whole propaganda about vaccines ipression.

And to answer this:

Should everyone have worn a mask in public buildings for the past year+? No. Unless they did the same with common flu.
Should everyone listen to hard rock? No.
Should everyone eat pastitsio? No.
Should everyone watch what I'm about to watch now, aka Godfather part 2? No.

Of course I am doing the first 3 not because they tell me to and for your entertainment(aka 300Euros fine) I am forced to the first but people should do whatever they want to do.
Hopefully I can sneeze on someone's face at the beach, will see... Wear gloves and mask at the beach, stay safe, vaccinate your turtles :lol:

The current media circus in D.C. to portray fully vaccinated status as a "Get Out Of Masks Free" card is probably about a number of things. Implementation of GOOMF will vary a lot though. Our GOOMF rules leave plenty of room for confusion, if only because they could fill a book. Ending with:

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This order takes effect on Saturday, May 15, 2021, at 9:00 AM. At that time, the order entitled "Gatherings and Face Mask Order" issued on May 4, 2021, is rescinded. This order remains in effect through May 31, 2021, at 11:59 PM.

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May 15, 2021 Gatherings and Face Mask Order

In the end there is so much legal weaseling that one might easily be found non-compliant.

I'm curious on how would you feel if vaccinated people have more freedom than non vaccinated. For example going to movies or not have to work from home etc.
Would that be fine by you?
For me, even if I was a zombie I would still protest for people not wanting to be one.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sapator

I'm curious on how would you feel if vaccinated people have more freedom than non vaccinated. For example going to movies or not have to work from home etc.
Would that be fine by you?

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Well, we aren't even there yet. Even our new GOOMF rules still restrict movie theaters to 25 people indoors or 300 outdoors, disallow mingling with others outside your group, and require 6 feet/2 meters distancing. And they can still requires masks for all.

What I think is that anyone eligible to be vaccinated who hasn't been without a specific medical reason is a scared child fearing monsters under the bed or a selfish contrarian who doesn't care about himself much less anyone around him.

Maybe the answer is to just let them infect each other and deal with the fallout. There is only so much you can do and have a free society, and "you can't fix stupid."

OK.
So I'm talking about the essence of depriving people rights for an idea that everyone that is not vaccinated is a potential risk to vaccinated people too.
So vaccinated people can walk the earth freely and non vaccinate, even if (by their saying) they cannot infect vaccinated people anymore left out.

Getting Covid gives you the same immunity as getting the vaccine, right? Why should millions of people who already have Covid antibodies risk the potential side effects, however small the chances of those side effects are? I'm not a fan of playing even low risk Russian roulette just to appease others.

Dill, if you think I'm being a selfish contrarian, you have no idea how much of a sincere compliment that is.

And if that's stupid then damn, I'm tremendously glad it can't be fixed.

And the argument about vaccinated people needing to avoid unvaccinated people never made sense to me in the first place. If the vaccine doesn't prevent you from getting Covid, then why does it matter if you are around vaccinated or unvaccinated people? If a vaccinated person can get Covid, they can certainly give it to someone else who is vaccinated. Have you read about the outbreak on the Yankees? I think it is up to 9 people positive, all fully vaccinated. I guess some unvaccinated "Typhoid Mariano" must be responsible...

I guess society constantly needs a pariah du jour. I say, bring it on.

Yes,
I don't argue on something I'm just curious about the different views here.

I thought I was the pariah around here.

The whole situation is complicated, I have my views, maybe sometimes I express them forcibly but that does not mean I won't listen to other peoples opinions.

There is at least one variant (the Brazilian P.1) that has shown the ability to re-infect people who have already had the disease. There is also some amount of....well, I forget the term, but it's people who get the disease even with the vaccine. In Israel, they showed that of the people with one dose, the variants that people got were largely split between two (I think it was London and South Africa), but once you had two doses, the VAST majority of people who still got COVID got just one variant...and I forget which one it was, but it was one of the two from the pair that predominated for those with one dose.

So, a vaccine doesn't mean you can't get the disease, it just makes it FAR less likely that you will. I don't know whether those who had the disease have the same immunity. There's sound reason to believe that they do not. At least the Pfizer and Moderna vaccines will create antibodies against the spike protein, since that's what the mRNA creates. For people who had the virus, they ended up with antibodies, but what are those antibodies for? The spike protein is the most notable piece of the virus, but is it the only one? A portion of the long haulers appear to have something like autoimmune disease. Could their immune systems have gone after the 'wrong' part of the virus? I don't believe that is known. I'm not sure if that's even a possibility.

As a coder, though, I REALLY like the mRNA vaccines. That's straight up coding there. Those vaccines were being developed to go after a variety of cancers, which even sapator would probably agree are a bit more deadly than the flu. The difficulty is the delivery mechanism, and making the mRNA stable enough to generate proteins. The COVID vaccines show that both of those problems have been solved, so now the same technique can be used to create vaccines against any unique protein target. Certain cancers expose unique proteins, hence the idea of vaccinating against them. It's a pretty interesting thing.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker

As a coder, though, I REALLY like the mRNA vaccines. That's straight up coding there. Those vaccines were being developed to go after a variety of cancers, which even sapator would probably agree are a bit more deadly than the flu. The difficulty is the delivery mechanism, and making the mRNA stable enough to generate proteins. The COVID vaccines show that both of those problems have been solved, so now the same technique can be used to create vaccines against any unique protein target. Certain cancers expose unique proteins, hence the idea of vaccinating against them. It's a pretty interesting thing.

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LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL. Are you kidding me? Performing in-place human kernel patches...what could possibly go wrong? Besides everything?

As a coder it should scare the hell out of you.