What is Your take on what Jesus Said?

I think I should address a few points here. First off please don't confuse me with Lucifer, we are two different entities. I am the Accuser, I am what gives you the choice to reject God and to be free. Lucifer is the bearer of the dark light, He is the one who will show you the harsh truth that God doesn't think you need to see.

When Lucifer let you taste the fruit from the tree of knowledge he was setting you free. The garden of Eden wasn't a paradise, it was a cage for god to keep his little pets. Look around you at the Eden that you've created. Tell me that's not better, It's got beer in it for a start. Who doesn't remember the joy of bringing home his first pay packet? who hasn't felt that satisfaction of solving a difficult problem? Who wasn't proud when they got out of school knowing that they had learnt the ways of the world? This is what Lucifer gave you. You can't achieve anything if there's nothing to achieve. Lucifer let you call yourselves men. You blame him for all the injustice in the world, it'd still be there you just wouldn't know about it, You'd just be sitting in your little cage getting fatter and more worthless by the minute. That's what god wanted. Take a step back and look at the world that you've created, take pride in it, don't degrade yourself by worshiping a god that doesn't dare show his face on this earth since I took over. If you want something to worship look in a mirror.

I have some questions.

1. Why do people want to worship a god that demands that you love him or else you'll be damned? How can you develop natural love for someone like that? To be honest, I'd rather be damned than spend eternity brown nosing this nutter.

2. Why would god want to punish people who lived their lives knowing nothing about him, through no fault of their own?

3. If god is so insecure that he needs to make people love him through fear of punishment, why doesn't he just show himself to the whole world? I think he'd find that would be much more effective.

4. Forget about trying to prove the existence of god, can you prove to me that he is the right god to worship? Why shouldn't I worship one of the many others on offer?

5. If another guy comes along claiming to be the Messiah, would you believe him?

Tygur

Quote:

---

Sort of. The reason why He didn't undo the damage was because Satan raised some questions. Satan wasn't completely stupid. In short, he said that people didn't need God. God could've simply destroyed Satan, Adam, and Eve and started fresh, but he gave Satan a chance to prove himself instead. This shows that God isn't a tyrant. God lives by His principles. The "higher power" is self-imposed by God.

---

Satan raised "some questions" that a all powerful being such as God should have already known the answer to. If there are things that he doesn't know and can only find out through experience then he is not all powerful. Why let the devil try to prove something that God must already know the answer to?

Quote:

---

If God can feel regret, then that means there must be something He did not forsee. I'm not truly sure if God transcends time. It could be that He simply chooses not to.

---

If I fire a bullet into a crowd of people with a blindfoldd on, am I absolved of responsibility if anybody "accidentally" gets hit? I think not. Everyone is held to account for their actions whether or not they choose to make themselves aware of the consequances.

Quote:

---

The people that think God shouldn't be so cruel should check out Ezekiel 33:11. There it states that God does not take delight when wicked people die.

---

OK, even if you assume that the Bible is the word of God, we judge people by their actions and not their words. Why is it that he seems to say one thing and do another?

Beacon:

Quote:

---

So why did this higher intelligence make it from wood and tar and get the dimensions to hold the required amount of animals WRONG!
Surely this higher intelligence could of made FibreGlass for noah!

---

Noah built the ark, not God. I'm sure God had His reasons for doing it that way. Wood and tar is what was available at the time. They didn't have fiberglass and other modern-day materials. Noah wouldn't have had a clue what he was doing if God provided them. The building materials used were much more familiar to the people of the time.

The dimensions for holding the animals was not wrong. I've explained this already. It's the posting right after the one you made about the ark being too small.

Quote:

---

Someone stated that maybe it wasnt rough sea's.
I highly doubt it the bible states it was a storm!

---

I'm going to have to agree with that someone. Maybe it wasn't so rough. God orchestrated the flood. He probably protected the ark from any of the elements it wouldn't have been able to withstand, if there were any. (I doubt there were any, but I'm not a shipbuilder)

Quote:

---

Plus are you saying the flood rose in all areas at the same rate and hieght? There would of been currents to downward flowing areas!

---

I'm not sure how that worked out. I don't know if the storm concentrated on certain areas and moved out or if it erupted simultaneously worldwide or if it did comething completely different. The bible doesn't say.



There's more coming in a minute or two. Eventually, I'll also get to Beacon's question about the ice caps, too, after some more research.

simonm

Quote:

---

Satan raised "some questions" that a all powerful being such as God should have already known the answer to. If there are things that he doesn't know and can only find out through experience then he is not all powerful. Why let the devil try to prove something that God must already know the answer to?

---

God did already know the answers. But the angels didn't. God was proving it to the angels to get rid of any doubts they might have. Otherwise, if he did destroy Satan and the first two people and start fresh, the angels might see Him as a tyrant. God wants them to serve him willingly, just like He wants us to.

Quote:

---

If I fire a bullet into a crowd of people with a blindfoldd on, am I absolved of responsibility if anybody "accidentally" gets hit? I think not. Everyone is held to account for their actions whether or not they choose to make themselves aware of the consequances.

---

That was only offered as a possible explanation. Either God's knowledge of future events is not unlimited, or he chooses to restrict it. If He chooses to restrict it, I think it's an act of kindness, because it puts God on the same plane of thought as everyone else. Also, it prevents Him from destroying people before they actually do something wrong, just because they would. The reason why that's good should be obvious.

Now, as for your illustration of you shooting at a crowd, you would suffer the consequences even if you were blind. God apparently did feel that he had to suffer the consequences of His actions (making the human race) and try to make everything better, because He sent Jesus down to die for us. But, since He is the one to determine right and wrong, he could've simply decided that we should just continue on as we were instead of sending Jesus. This shows that God isn't so cruel as many point him out to be.

Quote:

---

OK, even if you assume that the Bible is the word of God, we judge people by their actions and not their words. Why is it that he seems to say one thing and do another?

---

Okay, tell me what this other thing He is doing is. I didn't say that He doesn't kill the wicked, only that He doesn't like to. What does He say but not do?

Millions of people, including myself, who's lives are radically changed for the better ever since we truly sought after Him and have come to know Him with all of our heart.

Satan

Quote:

---

God's Just a word, get over it.

---

"In the Beginning was the Word and the Word was God". John 1:1

nullus

Quote:

---

1. Why do people want to worship a god that demands that you love him or else you'll be damned? How can you develop natural love for someone like that? To be honest, I'd rather be damned than spend eternity brown nosing this nutter.

---

First, I want to say that when you die, you're just dead. THere's no heaven or hell. You're just gone. Now with that said, let's look at what God requires of you. You have free will. You can have fun. There's nothing wrong with that. He gave us the five senses so we can have fun. He could've has us seeing black and white or he could've given us no sense of taste. But if he did that, we wouldn't be able to get as much pleasure out of life. Sure there are restrictions and rules, but there will always be rules. There's no way around that. Now, if you reject God, he takes your life away. He would take back what He gave to you because you didn't use it right. It's that simple. No eternal tourture in hell.

Quote:

---

2. Why would god want to punish people who lived their lives knowing nothing about him, through no fault of their own?

---

The answer is simple. He doesn't. Look at Acts 24:15. It says that there will bea resurrection of the righteous and the unrighteous. The unrighteous are the people of which you speak. These people, along with the people that served God, will be resurrected (brought back to life) after armageddon.

Quote:

---

3. If god is so insecure that he needs to make people love him through fear of punishment, why doesn't he just show himself to the whole world? I think he'd find that would be much more effective.

---

I wouldn't say insecure. He just wants his creation to respect him as God. That's reasonable. The world is currently being controlled by Satan (See 1 John 5:19). Yet, you don't see him showing himself, do you? God is showing himself, but just through the bible. It seems likely that we are being tested to see if we would follow God under these circumstances.

Quote:

---

4. Forget about trying to prove the existence of god, can you prove to me that he is the right god to worship? Why shouldn't I worship one of the many others on offer?

---

I could sit here and tell you that this God is the only true god and that the bible says so, but I don't think that'll cut it. If you believe in the bible, there is only one God to choose. But I know there are many other religions that completely reject the bible. Many of thses religions are very radical and encourage violence. I don't think the true religion is like that.

I believe in the bible because it makes sense. Everything in it works out and it looks right (In my eyes, anyway).

God has the right qualities:
Love (1 John 4:8)
Wisdom (Proverbs 2:6; Romans 11:33)
Justice (Deuteronomy 32:4; Luke 18:7, 8)
Power (Job 37:23; Luke 1:35)
God of order and peace (1 Corinthians 14:33)
Happy (1 Timothy 1:11)
Merciful (Exodus 34:6; Luke 6:36).

The most notable, in my opinion, are Love and Mercy. He doesn't just immediately kill all who disobey. He gives people a chance to change their ways first.

Quote:

---

5. If another guy comes along claiming to be the Messiah, would you believe him?

---

I wouldn't, because the bible says that another one isn't coming and that many false ones would be coming.

Quote:

---

Sure there are restrictions and rules, but there will always be rules. There's no way around that. Now, if you reject God, he takes your life away. He would take back what He gave to you because you didn't use it right. It's that simple. No eternal tourture in hell.

---

So even if I live a good life, I'm kind, I'm generous, I fulfill my dreams, and get the most out of this life as I can, but don't happen to believe in this god because he hasn't shown himself to me, he'll kill me for not living my life the way he wants? Charming! :p Would you then say it's ok for some parents to kill their child if the child has no respect for them, because the parents have never played a part in their life? Afterall, the parents made that child's body.

I personally believe that we (ie. souls) are immortal. The soul is energy - energy cannot be created or destroyed. Therefore, we have all always existed, and always will. No one has the right, nor the ability to take my life.

Quote:

---

I wouldn't say insecure. He just wants his creation to respect him as God. That's reasonable. The world is currently being controlled by Satan (See 1 John 5:19). Yet, you don't see him showing himself, do you? God is showing himself, but just through the bible. It seems likely that we are being tested to see if we would follow God under these circumstances.

---

I can't respect anyone who would bully me into loving them. You'd have thought he could give us more proof of his existance than a book though! So how is Satan controlling the world? I thought we all had free will. Unless you mean by giving us temptations such as money and sex? I'd argue that Buddhists (the only religion I have any respect for) abstain more from these temptations than any Christian.

I can't really respond to your other arguments, I'll just have to take your word for it :)

Quote:

---

So even if I live a good life, I'm kind, I'm generous, I fulfill my dreams, and get the most out of this life as I can, but don't happen to believe in this god because he hasn't shown himself to me, he'll kill me for not living my life the way he wants? Charming! Would you then say it's ok for some parents to kill their child if the child has no respect for them, because the parents have never played a part in their life? Afterall, the parents made that child's body.

---

Your illustration about parents is a little off. Parents can't kill their children because God considers that as wrong.

If you made a band of robots that were fully self-aware so they could <Insert something for them to do here> and they decided that they didn't want to listen to you, what prevents you from destroying them all?

Quote:

---

You'd have thought he could give us more proof of his existance than a book though!

---

He did. It just wasn't in your lifetime. This book is the documenation of what happened. It also describes what will happen and it foretold what would be happening now and it is right. The bible describes our time period as "the last days". See 2 Timothy 3:1-7. Also look at Luke 21:8-11.

The book of Revelation, as confusing as it is, describes many things that are happening right now and that will happen after armageddon (aka the apocalypse).

In the book of Daniel, the succession of world powers is described. One thing to note is that the last world power described in there is ruling right now.

Quote:

---

So how is Satan controlling the world? I thought we all had free will. Unless you mean by giving us temptations such as money and sex? I'd argue that Buddhists (the only religion I have any respect for) abstain more from these temptations than any Christian.

---

Money and sex is not wrong. The problem comes along when the desire to get nore and more money controls your life. As for sex, the problem is sex outside of marriage. Once married, a couple can engage in whatever sexual pleasures they want.

Satan goesn't care at all about free will. How much free will do you think the demon-possessed people in the bible had? Satan is very sneaky. He is guiding people without their knowing it.

Okay, this has always puzzled me.

Jesus was the son of god. He was sent here to die for our sins. Heaven is a wonderful place. Jesus knew that when he died he was going to heaven. Therefore dying wasn't really any sort of sacrifice on his part. He was probably quite happy to die and go to heaven. So what was the point of him coming here to die for our sins in the first place, and why do people make such a big fuss out of it.

Surely this is a paradox.

SD

Since I am too lazy to read all the posts I am going to throw in my 2 cents. Sorry if there are repeats.

Some of religions greatest moments:
Crusades
White Man Burden (For those that don’t know that’s what they called the white man’s need to Christianize those heathen, savages, called Indians. They must need god)
Conquests
Holocaust
Slavery (Oh yeah it was the Christian thing to do, to give those illiterate, godless, poor, savages a place to live, food, work, oh and don’t forget god)
Salem Witch Trials
European Witch Hunt and Spanish Inquisition (Check out how many people died because of that, its staggering)

Shall I go on? I got more.

Ok how about:
If god is all-powerful why is he so vain that we must worship him?
If god is all-powerful why must religions ask for money?
Why is it the Catholic Church is the 3rd largest landowner in world?
Why is it that the bible was never heard of before a man (Oh and he was a writer and scholar) suddenly appeared with the first known copy of it?
Why is it that in the history before the Bible appeared that no other culture on earth warship just one god?
Why is that even though most religions would have you take the bible as law, they do not believe that Jesus was black, though it says it in the bible?
Where did the Dinosaurs come from?
If we all came from Adam and Eve then everyone that has had sex would have had incest with their brother/sister.

Shall I go on?

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Technocrat
If we all came from Adam and Eve then everyone that has had sex would have had incest with their brother/sister.

---

Ah, so Australia is really the garden of eden......

I think Alabama would be a better choice

Not if you're trying to take a dig at Jethro the King of all Aussies!

Just take a dig at everyone :D

Quote:

---

Jesus was the son of god. He was sent here to die for our sins. Heaven is a wonderful place. Jesus knew that when he died he was going to heaven. Therefore dying wasn't really any sort of sacrifice on his part. He was probably quite happy to die and go to heaven. So what was the point of him coming here to die for our sins in the first place, and why do people make such a big fuss out of it.

---

First I want to point out that Jesus suffered on the stake. They offered him alcohol or some other drug to help with the pain, but Jesus turned it down (See Matthew 27:34). Imagine being nailed to a post (it was a post, not a cross) until you die. Not a pleasant experience, even if you didn't die at the end.

It is true that Jesus was raised back up, but he wasn't the same. He was raised up in a different body. That is how he was sacrificed. After he was raised up, his disciples didn't even recognize him at first.

Heaven is not this wonderful place people go to when they die. The bible makes no claim of this.

Before Adam sinned, he was a perfect man (this means, among other things, that he was going to live forever). Then when he sinned, he lost that and couldn't pass it on into his children anymore. He passed on sin instead. In order to cancel out the sin and give us all perfection again, a perfect man was needed, in order to sacrifice his life. That's where Jesus came into the picture. He was born as a perfect man. When he died, his life was used to cancel out Adam's sin. After armageddon, people will be living forever again. Does that make sense to you?

Technocrat

Quote:

---

Some of religions greatest moments

---

They are all based on misinterpretations of the bible. I'm not catholic, and I don't think they knew what they were doing then, nor do I think they know what they are doing now.

Quote:

---

If god is all-powerful why is he so vain that we must worship him?

---

I wouldn't call him vain. He's the only true God. He created us. Worshipping him isn't so hard. The definiton of worship is to have or show a strong feeling of respect and admiration for God or a god. (Got it out of http://dictionary.cambridge.org/) If we know that He is the only true God, why not worship him?

Quote:

---

If god is all-powerful why must religions ask for money?

---

Most christian religions ask for far too much money. The bible does not support this. They do have to ask for some because their existence in this world requires that they pay for land, materials, etc. But this whole collection-plate-give-me-all-your-money-or-burn-in-hell thing is too much.

Quote:

---

Why is it the Catholic Church is the 3rd largest landowner in world?

---

Like I said, the catholic church doesn't follow the bible as closely as they should. Many of their teachings are screwed up.

Quote:

---

Why is it that the bible was never heard of before a man (Oh and he was a writer and scholar) suddenly appeared with the first known copy of it

---

When was this? The jews were using it since long before Jesus came around. Before then they were the Israelites. (what bit of it was available at the time)

Quote:

---

Why is it that in the history before the Bible appeared that no other culture on earth warship just one god?

---

The Israelites, and later the Jews did.

Quote:

---

Why is that even though most religions would have you take the bible as law, they do not believe that Jesus was black, though it says it in the bible

---

Where does it say that? If the bible does indeed say it, then he was black, but I don't think the bible says it.

Quote:

---

Where did the Dinosaurs come from?

---

They were created by God and later destroyed before Adam was created.

Quote:

---

If we all came from Adam and Eve then everyone that has had sex would have had incest with their brother/sister.

---

Yes. They had no other choice. So what?

So heaven isn't a great place to go..... therefore why do you want to worship god???

SD

Instead of going to heaven, you're looking forward to everlasting life on earth after armageddon.

You say the bible does not claim that heaven is a good place.

I say: B.S.

Read Revelation 21:4 "and He shall wipe away every tear from their eyes; and there shall no longer be any death; there shall no longer be any mourning, or crying, or pain..."

If a place like this isn't "nice" to you, you're screwed upstairs.

Also, the point of Christianity and thus the point of Jesus was to bring man into an everlasting friendship with God, which is what man was created for in the first fricken place. We do not worship God to be damned and sent to hell to burn ourselves forever.

The bible says that God cannot allow sin in his presence; this is why all who have inherited sin from Adam are damned if they do not believe in the redemption of Christ.


Now here's a challenge for evolution. The theory of evolution requires that valid information (DNA) be produced by chance from a soup of chemical crap.

Consider the following VB code:

Code:

---

Dim Length As Long
Dim Text As ReallyLongString  ' just a 2 MB string type
Length = Rnd * 2000000
For I = 1 To Length
 Text = Text & Chr$(Rnd * 255)
Next I

---

Now with the exception of the ReallyLongString type, this code will work. It creates a 100% random string of a random length. Now run this code as many times as you need to exactly produce the complete works of Shakespeare translated into Japanese. (and if there is 1 byte that is wrong, it doesn't count)

This is what evolution is requiring. If you think evolution works, you are basically saying that this little program can write dozens of plays, sonnets, and other stuff without any guidance from an outside source.

Now consider a program with access to a translation library that goes from English to Japanese. You feed it a string and out comes Japanese equivalence. Put in Shakespeare, and out comes Japanese Shakespeare. This has about a 90% chance of being exactly what you want, while the probability of the above code working to get the same result is infinitesimally small.

The program represents evolution; the translation library example represents intelligent design by "god" or aliens or whatever the %^#&* you want. In this sense, it takes MORE "faith" to believe evolution than to believe in a god or something like that.

Quote:

---

You say the bible does not claim that heaven is a good place.

I say: B.S.

Read Revelation 21:4 "and He shall wipe away every tear from their eyes; and there shall no longer be any death; there shall no longer be any mourning, or crying, or pain..."

If a place like this isn't "nice" to you, you're screwed upstairs.

---

I think you misunderstood me. Heaven is not where good people go when they die. Hell is not a place where bad people go when they die. When people die, they're gone and that's it.

Look at these scriptures to see what I mean:
Ecclesiastes 9:10
Genesis 3:19
Ecclesiastes 9:5
Psalm 146:4
Ezekiel 18:4

As for that scripture in Revelation, I know it by heart. It's not talking about what you think it's talking about. Look at the beginning of that chapter. It talks of a new heaven and a new earth. It says that the old heaven and earth are gone. This is all happening after armageddon. In verse 5, God is saying He is making all things new. Now how can that possibly be talking of a heaven where good people go when they die?

Proof of evolution exists all around us. For example, we all came from Adam and Eve right? So how do you explain the physical differences between Blacks, Whites, Asians, etc.? The only explanation is that humans spread around the world, adapting to their various surroundings (ie. evolved). If humans didn't evolve, then we'd all have the same physical characteristics.

Also, humans still have a small stump at the end of the spine, which is where our tail used to be.

Quote:

---

Your illustration about parents is a little off. Parents can't kill their children because God considers that as wrong.

If you made a band of robots that were fully self-aware so they could <Insert something for them to do here> and they decided that they didn't want to listen to you, what prevents you from destroying them all?

---

So god doesn't practice what he preaches? Not a very good example to set, is it?

If I made a band of robots that became sentient, I would consider it their right to live. I wouldn't be so oppressive as to kill them for not doing what I want.

So if after armageddon we'rer all going to live forever, does that mean we will not be allowed to have children. Otherwise the world will quickly become overpopulated.

What about the people that die before armageddon? What happens to them? Do we come back to life? If thats the case, the world is going to be very heavily overpopulated.

P.S. Mlewis. Your theory about evolution is fatally flawed. You suppose to know the outcome of the program and try to match it. Thats like saying if two people have a child you can predict the outcome of their DNA. Out of all the possibilities, they end up with a unique DNA structure. There is no right or wrong answer for it.

SD

Quote:

---

So if after armageddon we'rer all going to live forever, does that mean we will not be allowed to have children. Otherwise the world will quickly become overpopulated.

---

I don't know. That's actually a question I've been wondering about for a while now.

Quote:

---

What about the people that die before armageddon? What happens to them? Do we come back to life? If thats the case, the world is going to be very heavily overpopulated.

---

This one I do know. Basically, everyone but the people that rejected God will be brought back to life. I think I read somewhere that the earth was plenty big enough for this.


One thing about the earth getting overpopulated because of people not dying.. I've been thinking that maybe were meant to eventually learn to reach the stars. If you think about it, it kinda makes sense. If you can live forever, who cares about spending so much time (whatever amount of time it takes) to ride to the next star system.. This is probably flawed thinking, by the way. It's something I came up with completely on my own.

Quote:

---

So god doesn't practice what he preaches? Not a very good example to set, is it?

If I made a band of robots that became sentient, I would consider it their right to live. I wouldn't be so oppressive as to kill them for not doing what I want.

---

What I meant was that parents didn't make their children. All they did was fool around in bed (or wherever they were) and have a kid pop out several months later.. It's not the same thing. God created us, much like the you as a robot designer in my illustration. If you want, you can go ahead and kill off all your robots. If you don't, it's your own decision not to.

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Tygur

I've been thinking that maybe were meant to eventually learn to reach the stars. If you think about it, it kinda makes sense. If you can live forever, who cares about spending so much time (whatever amount of time it takes) to ride to the next star system.. This is probably flawed thinking, by the way. It's something I came up with completely on my own.

---

No, I don't think it's flawed. I think you have come up with a very good explanation.

SD

Quote:

---

What I meant was that parents didn't make their children. All they did was fool around in bed (or wherever they were) and have a kid pop out several months later.. It's not the same thing. God created us, much like the you as a robot designer in my illustration. If you want, you can go ahead and kill off all your robots. If you don't, it's your own decision not to.

---

But parents do make their children. Their bodies provide 2 separate strands of DNA which come together to form a new body. I can't see how God has any part to play in this.

Sure, I could kill all the robots I make, but as soon as they became sentient, they would no longer be things I could do with what I want. They'd be living beings. If I did treat them like that, I'd consider it morally wrong.

By the way, can you please answer my point about evolution? I'm interested in how the bible explains this. :)

Tygur:

If the floods covered the whole world. Where there mountains and seas in this world? I would persume so. Water will run downhill, fill up low lying areas catchments first as you know. So the world wouldnt of filled up link a kitchen sink and noahs ark would of been carried away by currents etc.

Plus if we can only build 300ft wooden ships today and they hardly float just sitting in the harbour a 450ft ark would have a difficult time staying at sea for that amount of time without sinking unless God provided noah with some super efficient bilge pumps!

Cool i cant wait for the answer to the ice caps because as what i've been reading it has been unanswered by the churches scientists for years.

SurfDemon

Quote:

---

No, I don't think it's flawed. I think you have come up with a very good explanation.

---

Thanks :)




nullus

Quote:

---

But parents do make their children. Their bodies provide 2 separate strands of DNA which come together to form a new body. I can't see how God has any part to play in this.

---

The parents don't get nearly as much credit as God does. The bible says that children are gifts from God (See Psalm 127:3). If you think about it, how much credit do you get for making a tv dinner, even though you did put it in the microwave? The problem is that all you did was take an already-prepared dinner and warm it up. Likewise, all the parents did was have sex. Then the woman's body took over without her conscious thought. Credit goes to God for making the whole mechanism.

Quote:

---

Sure, I could kill all the robots I make, but as soon as they became sentient, they would no longer be things I could do with what I want. They'd be living beings. If I did treat them like that, I'd consider it morally wrong.

---

What's the difference if they're sentient? That just means they are aware that they would be destroyed. You define the rules they live by because you created them. If you don't want destruction to be a penalty, it's your own choice.

God made it clear that the penalty for sin is death (See Genesis 2:17). Adam sinned and passed it down to all of us. We inherited it. (See Romans 5:12) God is giving everyone the chance to redeem themselves.

Quote:

---

By the way, can you please answer my point about evolution? I'm interested in how the bible explains this.

---

Where's your point about evolution? I can't find it.




Beacon

Quote:

---

If the floods covered the whole world. Where there mountains and seas in this world? I would persume so. Water will run downhill, fill up low lying areas catchments first as you know. So the world wouldnt of filled up link a kitchen sink and noahs ark would of been carried away by currents etc.

---

It is a possibility that the rain started at certain places and then spread. So maybe the rain started over the lower areas (more specifically, the area the ark was in), and then spread. That would prevent the huge runoff you speak of.

Quote:

---

Plus if we can only build 300ft wooden ships today and they hardly float just sitting in the harbour a 450ft ark would have a difficult time staying at sea for that amount of time without sinking unless God provided noah with some super efficient bilge pumps!

---

What if the ark simply didn't leak? Tar is waterproof.

Quote:

---

Cool i cant wait for the answer to the ice caps because as what i've been reading it has been unanswered by the churches scientists for years.

---

Really? That's not too encouraging. To tell you the truth, I've been putting that off. I'm going to see what I can find tonight.

Tygur: I admire your faith etc.:)

But still there would be currents, water flowing perhaps even wirl pools and the potential of the ark hitting rocks etc. is great. Also this flowing of water would put stress on the arks structure and as i said before even if the wooden ark was caoted in tar, tar is like glue waterproof yet the join will snap at a certain level of stress and that stress level would of been easily reached with the size and weight of the ark thats not including outside forces.

So leaks would of been inevitable even todays top boats can leak but they have pumps to handle this leakage!

mlewis

Quote:

---

If you think evolution works, you are basically saying that this little program can write dozens of plays, sonnets, and other stuff without any guidance from an outside source.

---

Your "little program" is not a valid model of evolutionary theory. You are focusing on the random mutation factor, and whilst this is an important part of the evolutionary process, it is incomplete.

What you are forgetting is natural selection. This works hand in hand with random mutation to select the "best" mutations over the "weaker" mutations. This ensures that the weakest mutation rarely survive to propegate themselves.

Quote:

---

Where's your point about evolution? I can't find it.

---

I'll post it again :)

Proof of evolution exists all around us. For example, we all came from Adam and Eve right? So how do you explain the physical differences between Blacks, Whites, Asians, etc.? The only explanation is that humans spread around the world, adapting to their various surroundings (ie. evolved). If humans didn't evolve, then we'd all have the same physical characteristics.

Quote:

---

The parents don't get nearly as much credit as God does. The bible says that children are gifts from God (See Psalm 127:3). If you think about it, how much credit do you get for making a tv dinner, even though you did put it in the microwave? The problem is that all you did was take an already-prepared dinner and warm it up. Likewise, all the parents did was have sex. Then the woman's body took over without her conscious thought. Credit goes to God for making the whole mechanism.

---

Going back to the robot thing: if I made 2 robots that had the ability to make a concious decision to somehow replicate their parts and create another robot, I wouldn't say that I created the 3rd robot, I just gave the first 2 the ability to do this. The gift from me would be the ability to do this, not the 3rd robot. But I guess this is just a matter of how you see things.

Quote:

---

What's the difference if they're sentient? That just means they are aware that they would be destroyed. You define the rules they live by because you created them. If you don't want destruction to be a penalty, it's your own choice.

God made it clear that the penalty for sin is death (See Genesis 2:17). Adam sinned and passed it down to all of us. We inherited it. (See Romans 5:12) God is giving everyone the chance to redeem themselves.

---

If they're sentient, it means they'd be concious, intelligent, and self-aware and therefore have the right to live how they want. Obviously you'd have to give them some sort of morality so that they wouldn't go around killing and stuff, but that's about the only rule I'd impose on them, the rest is up to them as far as I'm concerned. Any more and I'd consider it oppressive.

But Adam was just a normal guy though right? Why should everyone else be condemned at birth for his little mistake? I mean God created an imperfect species, so surely it's his fault?

By the way, I agree with Beacon, your faith is admirable, and I think you're doing pretty well with all these arguments being put to you. :)

Tygur,

I admire your persistance. You've put up with an onslaught from all sides and you're still here fighting your corner so: well done!

Quote:

---

Either God's knowledge of future events is not unlimited, or he chooses to restrict it. If He chooses to restrict it, I think it's an act of kindness, because it puts God on the same plane of thought as everyone else. Also, it prevents Him from destroying people before they actually do something wrong, just because they would. The reason why that's good should be obvious.

---

I believe you are missing the point here. If the future "exists" to look at (whether God chooses to or not) then it is predetermined. You can't get away from that fact (If it is not predetermined, there is no way God could be certain that something would happen).

If the future is pre-determined, then "free will" can only be an illusion. God may choose not to view the consequances of his actions in advance but that doesn't change the fact that the consequances are determined in the act of creation itself. Therefore, as much as it might seem that we have free will, our choices have already been made for us by our creator (i.e. God).


If the future is not pre-determined, it is possible that "free will" does exist. The problem is that the "prophecies" in the Bible must be no more than guesses or just plain false. How could God have known the future if the future is undefined?

To know the future is to fix the future into a particular pattern. Either this pattern cannot be changed and the future is certain or the pattern can be changed and the future is unknowable.

For me, this is one of the greatest logical paradoxes surrounding the existance of God.

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Tygur

They are all based on misinterpretations of the bible. I'm not catholic, and I don't think they knew what they were doing then, nor do I think they know what they are doing now.

---

All religions have done some "evil" deeds and claimed they were for god. It doesn’t take much to find those deeds. There hasn’t been a religion that I have seen that hasn’t been evil or corrupt at some point in there history.

Quote:

---

I wouldn't call him vain. He's the only true God. He created us. Worshipping him isn't so hard. The definiton of worship is to have or show a strong feeling of respect and admiration for God or a god. (Got it out of http://dictionary.cambridge.org/) If we know that He is the only true God, why not worship him?

---

Can't really argue that one too much. Except if we live are lives to the best of our abilities why must it matter if we worship to him or not. If he is really all loving and everything it should not matter if we warship him as long as we lived a good life.

Which makes me think of another point, prayer. Know where prayer (In this case putting your hands together, facing the floor, and praying to god) comes from. It was stolen from those dirty Satan worshiping, heathens, the Pagans. They used to pray to their “evil” god that lived underground by doing the previously descried prayer. They did it this way because they thought it was a way of directing their prayers and thoughts to it. The priests that watch then thought they were showing respect, and admiration by facing down. So they integrated it into there religion. Whoops, so you are facing down and the thought is you are sending prayers down to….Satan.

Quote:

---

Most christian religions ask for far too much money. The bible does not support this. They do have to ask for some because their existence in this world requires that they pay for land, materials, etc. But this whole collection-plate-give-me-all-your-money-or-burn-in-hell thing is too much.

---

If god is so powerful why doesnt he supply the money and land? Why do the people have to?

Quote:

---

Like I said, the catholic church doesn't follow the bible as closely as they should. Many of their teachings are screwed up.

---

Still why does a religion need that much land and money?

Quote:

---

When was this? The jews were using it since long before Jesus came around. Before then they were the Israelites. (what bit of it was available at the time)

---

It was a well-discussed historical discovery a few years ago that the first known copy of a bible, showed up years before AD and Jews had it. I can’t remember much about it because I read about it awhile back, but it was traced back to a Jewish (I believe) writer and scholar. Not a religious person, not a priest, not a king, a writer. Before this time no recorded evidence was ever found about the bible. But most religious officials tried to discredit this discovery and bury it. I have not heard about it since then. But this does not surprise me, because if it were true, it would greatly hurt their base of ideas and beliefs. With all the money, power, and high-powered people they could through at this problem, it does not shock me it just went away.

Quote:

---

The Israelites, and later the Jews did.

---

Israelites and the Jews still based their belief system around the bible or Koran, which have a lot of basic simularities. Which in my previous statement, I bet that the bible was derived from the Kron. But anyways, before this time most cultures were worshiping more than one god. So if Adam new about god, being the one and only god, then why did the Egyptians, Indians, Mayans, Africans, Eskimos, etc. believe that there was more than one god.

Quote:

---

Where does it say that? If the bible does indeed say it, then he was black, but I don't think the bible says it.

---

Since I dont have a bible I cant quote you the line. If you were to quote what the man Jesus looks like (From a real bible, not one that has "modified") it basicaly give a discription of him being "black".

Quote:

---

They were created by God and later destroyed before Adam was created.

---

So then god is a **** up?

Quote:

---

Yes. They had no other choice. So what?

---

So if I had sex with my sister (UG I CANT BELIEVE I AM SAYING THIS. ALL IN THE NAME OF GOD I GUESS) our children would have genetic mistakes because of our similarities on a genetic level. So with that being said, how is it possible that through all those years of incest that must have occurred that anyone actually survived? We would have died out in about 100 years because of no new genetic material. Plus how is it that we all do not look alike?

I am going to wash myself in gasoline now in a attempt to be clean. UUUHHH so dirty, never be clean.

I haven't been following this thread because religion bores me.


Anyway, this arrived in my inbox today and I thought I'd post it here!

Code:

---

"Laura Schlessinger dispenses sex advice to people who call in to her radio show.
Recently, she said that as an observant Orthodox Jew, homosexuality is an abomination according to Leviticus 18:22 and cannot be condoned in any circumstance. The following is an Open Letter to Dr. Laura which was posted on the Internet:
Dear Dr. Laura:
Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God's Law. I have learned a great deal from your radio show, and I try to share that knowledge with as many people as I can. When someone tries to defend the homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind them that Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination. End of debate.
I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some of the specific Bible laws and how to follow them.
a) When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord (Lev. 1:9). The problem is my neighbors ***** to the zoning people. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?
b) I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7.
What do you think would be a fair price for her? She's 18 and starting college. Will the slave buyer be required to continue to pay for her education by law ?
c) I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanliness (Lev.>15:19-24). The problem is, how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense and threaten to call Human Resources.
d) Lev. 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations.
A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? ...Why can't I own Canadians? Is there something wrong with them due to the weather?
e) I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath.
Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself, or should this be a neighborhood improvement project ? What is a good day to start? Should we begin with small stones? Kind of lead up to it?
f) A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an abomination (Lev. 11:10), it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. I mean, a shrimp just isn't the same as a you-know-what. Can you settle this?
g) Lev. 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here? Would contact lenses fall within some exception?
h) Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev.19:27. How should they die? The Mafia once took out Albert Anastasia in a barbershop, but I'm not Catholic; is this ecumenical thing a sign that it's ok?
i) I know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?
j) My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev. 19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton / polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? (Lev.24:10-16) Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14)
I know you have studied these things extensively, so I am confident you can help. Thank you again for reminding us that God's word is eternal and unchanging.
Your devoted disciple and adoring fan.
Gwyn Waters

---

LOL, good one! ;)

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Mark Sreeves
Anyway, this arrived in my inbox today and I thought I'd post it here!

---

In case anyone thinks that posting proves a point, it doesn't. God formed a law covenant with the Israelites. (See Exodus 19:5) According to that covenant, they had to obey the laws outlined in those scriptures that were mentioned. But those laws no longer mean anything, because a new covenant replaced the old law covenant. (See Jeremiah 31:31-34 and Hebrews 8:13 Also read Hebrews Chapter 9 for more details if you have the time)


There is another scripture that is also against homosexuality, though. It's in 1 Corinthians 6:9



The other answers will be coming soon. I've been building a text file on my computer with all the answers and I wanted to send them all at once. But now I think I'm gonna break them up.

Also, Mark, do you think you can edit your post and take out those code tags so the text wraps?

Mark, that list was very colorfully rendered on an episode of the West Wing. It was halirious to see Martin Sheen deliver it.

Even if that covenant was with an old nation and no longer stands... why was it ever made? Those rules are very base and ethically undermine the Christian movement.

Either, those rules were introduced into the record of the exchange between man and god under fraud,

Or the Christians are following a false Messiah,

or there are powers and magics that this god is very intentionally hiding from us. To believe that the burning of a bull can do anything more than waste a perfectly god meal is like saying that the Tarot can true divinate.

*shrug*

Quote:

---

Originally posted by CiberTHuG
Mark, that list was very colorfully rendered on an episode of the West Wing. It was halirious to see Martin Sheen deliver it.

---

I LOVE that show!!!!!!!! I wish there was someone in charge like Jed Bartlett.

Quote:

---

Originally posted by barrk
I LOVE that show!!!!!!!! I wish there was someone in charge like Jed Bartlett.

---

YES! That is the only show I went out of my way to watch all season. And yes, even if I don't explicitly agree with Bartlett's stand, I appreciate the fact that he atleast believes in it. I would vote for him even if we disagreed on everything. I never get the feeling that Bush/Gore/et al believe in anything.

The show is also very well written (if you get over the fact that every conversation has a quick Law & Order beat). I've cried a few times while watching the show, not necessarily because it is sad, but because it is just so well written. If only I could write that well.

Beacon

Quote:

---

But still there would be currents, water flowing perhaps even wirl pools and the potential of the ark hitting rocks etc. is great. Also this flowing of water would put stress on the arks structure and as i said before even if the wooden ark was caoted in tar, tar is like glue waterproof yet the join will snap at a certain level of stress and that stress level would of been easily reached with the size and weight of the ark thats not including outside forces.

---

I hate to fall back on this, but it is possible that God could've helped prevent such adverse conditions from befalling or even affecting the ark if they did happen.

nullus

Quote:

---

If they're sentient, it means they'd be concious, intelligent, and self-aware and therefore have the right to live how they want. Obviously you'd have to give them some sort of morality so that they wouldn't go around killing and stuff, but that's about the only rule I'd impose on them, the rest is up to them as far as I'm concerned. Any more and I'd consider it oppressive.

---

And where do they get that right from? You, or someone higher than you, gave it to them. Whenever you speak of anyone or anything's rights, they come from someone, usually God. In this case, you said that the robots are sentient, so they have the right to live. So where does that right come from? If it came from you, it was your choice. If it didn't, then that means it came from someone higher than you. You gotta remember that God didn't have anyone above Him, so He was making the rules. This was the whole point the tree in the garden of Eden was trying to prove.

Quote:

---

But Adam was just a normal guy though right? Why should everyone else be condemned at birth for his little mistake? I mean God created an imperfect species, so surely it's his fault?

---

God didn't create an imperfect species. We became imperfect after Adam's sin. When someone is perfect, they are held fully accountable for their sins. When someone is imperfect, they keep getting second chances (but not forever, and they still gotta suffer the consequences of their actions) because God understands that they are imperfect.

Because Adam and Eve were both perfect when they sinned, they got no second chances. Angels that rejected God are doomed to the same fate as Satan (See Jude 6). They, too, didn't get second chances.



everyone
I still got the question of the ice caps during the flood for beacon, and simonm's, technocrat's, and CiberTHuG's posts to reply to...

Quote:

---

You've put up with an onslaught from all sides and you're still here fighting your corner

---

Yeah I even had to argue with a fellow bible supporter, but that didn't last too long. :)


I don't seem like the average christian, do I?

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Tygur
I don't seem like the average christian, do I?

---

No, you have a link to Watchtower in your sig. You are one of the freaky Christians. :)

Tygur:

I suppose God could of done that or Noah had sun shining out of his butt!
;)

But even so without rough seas the cargo load would be enough plus the shifting of weight it would hardly be probable that it would stay afloat for that much time!

The ice caps one should be interesting!

simonm

Who says the entire future has to be fixed if God fortells a couple choice events? God can see what's going on inside our heads. That's how he fortells the future. He knows us better than we know ourselves. The way I see it, He knows what we all are thinking and what we all act like. All he has to do is play it out and figure out what might happen. This should be no trouble for God. Sure, this method isn't foolproof, because we can change our minds. But I already showed that His ability to fortell the future is not unlimited. (either by choice or not, I don't know, but if it is by choice, consider it a show of respect) Also, He can manipulate our affairs to make something happen. This, too, doesn't violate our free will. We can choose to do whatever we want, and God would be preventing us from doing something, but not from trying. Think of it like you trying to go through a door but a guard preventing it. The guard certainly isn't taking away your free will.

Does that make sense to you?




CiberTHuG

Quote:

---

Even if that covenant was with an old nation and no longer stands... why was it ever made? Those rules are very base and ethically undermine the Christian movement.

---

How do you figure?

The rules in ther are much more sanitary than what the other nations of the time. For example, they had to bury their excrement away from water. They had to wash their hands. This was before anybody ever heard of germs.

As for slavery, you gotta remember that times were different. Slaves weren't always treated as harshly as you think. I'm not saying they were never treated bad, just that slavery isn't synonymous with bad treatment. The concept of slaves is simple. They work to have a roof over their head, food to eat, etc instead of working for the money to go out and buy the stuff. Of course, their master did own them, too, so thay can't leave at will, but that's all it means. Slaves still got some respect. There were many laws within that law covenant that governed the treatment of slaves and guaranteed them a degree of dignity.

As for the sacrifices, they were just that. They were sacrifices. The people were required to give sacrifices because it meant something to loose that sheep or that bull or whatever. It was payment for their sins, just like Jesus was payment for all our sins. An animal isn't worth nearly as much a perfect man, so it was only considered a temporary thing. If they did something wrong, and it wasn't so big that they were to be killed for it, they had to give extra sacrifices.

I think I explained that right.




Now I only got Technocrat's post and the ice cap thing...

Quote:

---

Who says the entire future has to be fixed if God fortells a couple choice events? God can see what's going on inside our heads. That's how he fortells the future.

---

It's not as simple as that is it? I've heard christians say that he exists outside of time itself. i.e. Time does not pass for God as it does for us. He is not restricted by it in the way that we are.

When God kicked the first atom into motion at the beginning of the universe, given his capacity for grasping systems of infinite complexity, the exact consequances must have been clearly laid out before him. Every subsequant intervention he makes in the universe can only be corrections on his original course. How many "corrections" has he made since he created the universe? How many adjustments has he made to his original plan? Why does he keep changing his mind?

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Tygur

And where do they get that right from? You, or someone higher than you, gave it to them. Whenever you speak of anyone or anything's rights, they come from someone, usually God. In this case, you said that the robots are sentient, so they have the right to live. So where does that right come from? If it came from you, it was your choice. If it didn't, then that means it came from someone higher than you. You gotta remember that God didn't have anyone above Him, so He was making the rules. This was the whole point the tree in the garden of Eden was trying to prove.

---

So you're saying that God never gave us the right to exist? If God created me and knows me better than I know myself, then, in his infinite wisdom, he must have known what sort of person I'd turn out to be, and whether I'd worship him or not. So why create someone that you know you're going to kill anyway? Or is he just sadistic like that?

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Tygur

God didn't create an imperfect species. We became imperfect after Adam's sin. When someone is perfect, they are held fully accountable for their sins. When someone is imperfect, they keep getting second chances (but not forever, and they still gotta suffer the consequences of their actions) because God understands that they are imperfect.

Because Adam and Eve were both perfect when they sinned, they got no second chances. Angels that rejected God are doomed to the same fate as Satan (See Jude 6). They, too, didn't get second chances.

---

But why would a perfect species have an imperfection? That makes no sense. If Adam and Eve were perfect, they wouldn't have sinned in the first place. Simple fact is, God screwed up. ;)

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Tygur

I still got the question of the ice caps during the flood for beacon, and simonm's, technocrat's, and CiberTHuG's posts to reply to...

---

But you STILL haven't answered my question on evolution!!! ;)

Here it is for the third time :p

Proof of evolution exists all around us. For example, we all came from Adam and Eve right? So how do you explain the physical differences between Blacks, Whites, Asians, etc.? The only explanation is that humans spread around the world, adapting to their various surroundings (ie. evolved). If humans didn't evolve, then we'd all have the same physical characteristics.

If you can't answer it, that's fine. I'm just interested in whether or not the bible explains this.

There have been many things debated in this thread. What I think is futile though (As I have said before) is that the Bible shouldn't put itself up against science. Science is the search for fact theology and philosophy are the search for truth. They are distinct things although often confused.

You will always get in trouble if you try and use science to demonstrate truth. It can never tell us how to live our lives or even how to get fulfillment from our lives. Science produces models that resemble reality and can be used help simplify and understand what's around us.

The bible offers truth but not fact. It's primary purpose is to establish a collection of ethics by which we should live our lives. It is not an encyclopedia or a detailed (impartial) account of scientific fact.

The Bible's story of creation is not a valid objection to evolution. It is not even an attempt to explain what evolution attempts to explain. On the other hand, evolution is not a valid objection to the existance of God. Evolution does not tell us why we are here or what the point to existance is. That is outside the scope of it's remitt.

The story of Noah's Arc is another example. Arguing over whether the Ark was technically viable is missing the point of the story. Scientifically speaking, it is a ridiculous notion. Not even worthy of debate. But, that isn't the point of the story. It is conveying a truth about God's feelings towards the human race.

What I am saying then is that the debate should not be about the facts (or lack of) in the bible but rather should be about the validity of the "truth" found there in.

:mad:

I do Believe Jesus is the Savior
Doubtful
I do not believe Jesus is the Savior
I want Jesus in my Life..but don't know how

What are you trying to do - recruit?

I'm sure that if people want a god, they will go out and find one - or buy one for that matter...

Please don't take any of this personally, i'm sure you're a very nice guy, but I feel very strongly about religion.....

"But if you've got enough naivety and you've got conviction, then the answer is perfect for you...." - Bad Religion

simonm

I've heard of all kinds of things about time and God, but I figured that time flows in one direction for Him, too, either by choice or not.

It appears that he made all sorts of laws to govern the universe and he doesn't like to break them, Himself. If you think about it, why did he need to send Jesus down? He didn't really need to do it, but he's trying not to break His rules. (Actually, he's being pretty successful at it. I don't need to say He's trying.)

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Tygur
It appears that he made all sorts of laws to govern the universe and he doesn't like to break them, Himself. If you think about it, why did he need to send Jesus down? He didn't really need to do it, but he's trying not to break His rules. (Actually, he's being pretty successful at it. I don't need to say He's trying.)

---

So how come Jesus broke the laws of physics by walking on water? ;)

nullus

Quote:

---

So how come Jesus broke the laws of physics by walking on water?

---

Why do you say he broke the laws of physics? He could've very well used them to his advantage.

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Tygur
Why do you say he broke the laws of physics? He could've very well used them to his advantage.

---

But it aint physically possible to walk on water, unless he tied some floatation devices to the bottoms of his feet so no one saw. :p If it was possible for Jesus to walk on water, then so can I :D

If you had really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, big, flat feet, you could.

Quote:

---

It appears that he made all sorts of laws to govern the universe and he doesn't like to break them, Himself. If you think about it, why did he need to send Jesus down? He didn't really need to do it, but he's trying not to break His rules.

---

I have thought about it and it isn't logical that he should send Jesus down. That's why I don't believe it. What rules was he operating within with the imaculate conception?

Quote:

---

I've heard of all kinds of things about time and God, but I figured that time flows in one direction for Him, too, either by choice or not.

---

If God is not outside of time itself then how could he have created the universe (before time itself existed)?

OK, so if God doesn't know the future that means that all the prophecies were merely educated guesses at what might happen. He couldn't have been sure of any of them comming into fruition. That itself would imply that the vast majority of prophecies would never come to pass as they were only possibilities (that were averted due to preceeding events).

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Behemoth
If you had really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, big, flat feet, you could.

---

Not any more he couldn't. He's got a couple of nail holes in them now!

SD

Quote:

---

Originally posted by nullus
Proof of evolution exists all around us. For example, we all came from Adam and Eve right? So how do you explain the physical differences between Blacks, Whites, Asians, etc.? The only explanation is that humans spread around the world, adapting to their various surroundings (ie. evolved). If humans didn't evolve, then we'd all have the same physical characteristics.

---

Yes, Nullus, proof of evolution exists, and I am quite confident that it played a roll in our past. But, if a god exists, are arguements are moot. God may or may not have used evolution, and if he didn't, evidence of such may have been planted to undermind faith (see also Lucifer).

Anyway... what I want to take issue with is... the differences between whites, blacks, yellows, browns, reds, et al, is a result of speciation. It works the same way evolution does, and contributes heavily to the process, but it is very widely accepted that if man evolved from an earlier primate, that all human species developed from the same. It is speculated that the blacks are the oldest of the human species, and that possibly whites evolved at the same time but seperately. I'm not sure of the evidence, but all of this is very sketchy. It could be possible that blacks are the oldest of the humans, and that all others developed as a result of speciation. That could just as easily be wrong.

There are also species within the skin tones. For example, in Europe, there are the Romans, the Gauls, the Celts, the Nordic, all of these species have very distinct differences (nose, hair color).

And if you look to dogs, you can not only see how different species evolve on their own, but how we can create new species. The Australian Terrier is a result of breeding. It is a specie we created by intentionally forcing the mixing of two other species.

We can do the same with humans, but things get to be more subtle since people only group themselves by skin color. :rolleyes:

Anyway, I'm rambling, but the point is, don't confuse speciation with evolution. One is a subset of the other. It is much easier for the religious to accept speciation as a result of genetics that god created then to accept evolution.

Quote:

---

Originally posted by nullus
But it aint physically possible to walk on water, unless he tied some floatation devices to the bottoms of his feet so no one saw. :p If it was possible for Jesus to walk on water, then so can I :D

---

Yes, well... we have made a material so dense that it slows the travel of light to centimeters per minute. It is entirely fesible that you could change the specific density of water, or yourself.

Again... I attribute this to exageration, but it is entirely possible that you may one day walk on water.