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Re: What if there was a NEW vb6
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Niya
I'd support it if it would make you happy but this is a pipe dream. Their primary focus seems to be grid computing and the VB6 importer is just a little side feature they're thinking about adding to their IDE. I wouldn't expect them to devote considerable effort into making this work as it would come at the expense of their core interests. The platform also seems wrong for your project which according to you, directly interacts with and manipulates hardware. XERO CODER seems to heavily favor database application development rather than being more generalized like VB6 was but I hope for your sake and the sake of others wanting this that I'm wrong. Nonetheless, I get the feeling that if this thing works, you're going to be spending a hell of a lot of time trying to fit a square peg into a round hole.
I think you should just stop chasing these pipe dreams and move to something like Delphi. There were other VB6 programmers in your camp that chose this route instead of .Net and they seemed quite please. According to them, Delphi had no run time requirements and it has a native code compiler.
The reason it is a good fit is because their IDE/compiler supports Basic, c++, Pascal, and java. they also use macros to translate keywords from other languages. Their product is written in lazarus, and I believe the use the free pascal compiler.
My reason with sticking with vb6 style language is because I am extremely efficient at it, and the delphi dialect will take some time to get used to. But if the xerocoder thing and vbrichclient stuff does not come through by win9, Lazarus it will be.'
I see this as an opportunity for any start up to become huge. Just the other day I saw a job posting from CHASE for a vb6 developer. I think the amount of users a ide/complier company will gain by supporting vb6 is worth millions if not billions.
good day
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Re: What if there was a NEW vb6
Quote:
The reason it is a good fit is because their IDE/compiler supports Basic, c++, Pascal, and java
So it supports BASIC, I wonder what that actually means as there have been many forms of Basic over the years and all of them a bit different. VB added quite a lot to Basic VB6 added even more and VB.Net added a lot more still. All of those are BASIC as is Quick Basic but they are quite a lot different.
I think you would find that after a short while you would be even more efficient in VB.Net than you are in VB6.
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Re: What if there was a NEW vb6
Quote:
Originally Posted by
DataMiser
I think you would find that after a short while you would be even more efficient in VB.Net than you are in VB6.
It's that first step into the "unknown" that people want to avoid, which I understand to an extent because it's human nature to become complacent/content and stick with what they know.
What I don't understand is the lengths at which people go to in order to avoid that unknown. Sure I'm personally a bit nervous when I'm learning something new, especially whenever it's similar to what I was doing or in the same field, but you got to have a courage to move on, otherwise you just stay stagnant.
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Re: What if there was a NEW vb6
Quote:
I think you would find that after a short while you would be even more efficient in VB.Net than you are in VB6.
axisdj has given his reasons why he cant move to VB6 in other threads, and unlike some at least he has reasons which have some validity.
VB.Net is not suitable which is why the previous poster recommended Delphi.
my Opinion is the OP would be better off moving there code now to something else. VB6 will not be supported in the way you want it too unfortunately, and trying to find open source (or otherwise) projects to take VB6 on is a huge task and unlikely t happen.
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Re: What if there was a NEW vb6
Quote:
VB.Net is not suitable
I don't think I've ever seen him give a valid reason why VB.Net isn't suitable. He's given good reasons for sticking with VB6 (the size of his code base) but the only reason I've ever seen him give for not moving to .Net if he moves boils down to "I don't trust Micrsosoft". In other words he's taking a business decision based on emotion rather than reason.
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Re: What if there was a NEW vb6
Quote:
I don't think I've ever seen him give a valid reason why VB.Net isn't suitable. He's given good reasons for sticking with VB6 (the size of his code base) but the only reason I've ever seen him give for not moving to .Net if he moves boils down to "I don't trust Micrsosoft". In other words he's taking a business decision based on emotion rather than reason.
Sorry it was Olaf i was thinking about!
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Re: What if there was a NEW vb6
They claim "95%" compatible. Technically, I think the same claim could be made for .NET because somewhere around 95% of the words are the same. I'm very dubious about their claim, and I seriously doubt it will live up to your expectations. As I've noted before, that 5% can be a HUGE hole, depending on how they measured (which is probably by guessing) and what they left out.
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Re: What if there was a NEW vb6
Quote:
Originally Posted by
RobDog888
I was going to say that extending VS to house VB6 projects would be a good idea as it would get vb6 developers to learn the new IDE and language and transition to .net but this would be a double edged sword as they may not want to migrate to .net and hang on to their legacy vb6 code.
How do you mean,.. go back to the days of the convert that did not work properly? :lol:
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Re: What if there was a NEW vb6
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Nightwalker83
How do you mean,.. go back to the days of the convert that did not work properly? :lol:
No, he means VB6 being supported as is by a modern Visual Studio IDE.
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Re: What if there was a NEW vb6
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Nightwalker83
How do you mean,.. go back to the days of the convert that did not work properly? :lol:
As VB6 users are going to use the .Net IDE they will get a hang of it and 'might' or 'might not' migrate. Who said anything about conversion???
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Re: What if there was a NEW vb6
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Niya
No, he means VB6 being supported as is by a modern Visual Studio IDE.
Wouldn't that just causes confusion mixing .NET and VB6? Also, if the code was VB6 that wouldn't promote updating of the code so if in the future was a Microsoft Operating system that supported .NET but did not support VB6 would the VB6 code still work?
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Re: What if there was a NEW vb6
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Nightwalker83
Wouldn't that just causes confusion mixing .NET and VB6?
Hmmm probably but I'm sure someone can come up with a way to remind users that the current project they're working on is not a VB.Net project. Perhaps with a different layout to the solution explorer or different colours in the syntax highlighting.
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Re: What if there was a NEW vb6
Ok - just for second - think about the creators of this .Net IDE we now use...
If you were given the perfect .Net library of Windows/PC/whatever-you-call-it API access that didn't require absurd variable declarations...
And the language gave you .xxx access to levels and levels and levels of methods and properties to work that API...
Why would you want some prior language that didn't have this access to hamper in any way what you could exploit of this new world?
Right now I can take a C#.Net function - visit a translation to VB website - and get perfect results (cut and paste-able code in VB.Net). That makes two coding communities meld in a way that speaks "marketing".
From an outsider - 20 years prior to 2000 in the Dec/Vax world - you PC coders have a nice platform.
I coded DEC PDP-11 Basic (and Fortran) in the 80's - DEC VAX-11 (yes - new hardware - argh) Basic in the 90's - and then that company (DEC - Digital Equipment) simply went away.
I lost my hardware again!!!
Grow up - it's just a language.
I can recall we had an "UNLESS-THEN" construct - kind of like "IF-THEN" (but different - if you know what I mean). As we moved from PDP's to VAX's they took that away (although not initially deprecated!!!!!!!). Had to write coder scrapers that would look for UNLESS-THEN and turn it onto a proper IF()=FALSE THEN statements.
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Re: What if there was a NEW vb6
Quote:
Originally Posted by
szlamany
Right now I can take a C#.Net function - visit a translation to VB website - and get perfect results (cut and paste-able code in VB.Net)
I suppose it depends on which translation site you use because I did a VB to C# translation awhile back and while the result was near perfect there was still one little method written in VB.NET than had not been converted to C#.
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Re: What if there was a NEW vb6
Ok - that was not really the point...
If anyone else here has had a chance to visit WPF...
which makes you realize that there is actually a much, much better event model then VB6...
Wow - the dispatcher calls each UI method - so threading is of it's very nature.
Again - it's just a language. You could make your own platform - us .web'er are forced to find a combination of libraries to make our magic with.
I really can't imagine wanting a warm-smelly-old-bed of what-I-used to be able to do with a language on this hardware platform (I guess that means forgetting that the hardware platform grows and morphs).
I just recently had to add Android access to my home-grown .Net web methods. Guess what - they didn't need to be changed at all (except for where I wanted to push new and cooler stuff to the Android device).
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Re: What if there was a NEW vb6
Quote:
Originally Posted by
dee-u
As VB6 users are going to use the .Net IDE they will get a hang of it and 'might' or 'might not' migrate. Who said anything about conversion???
I was referring to the days when the migration wizard was part of Visual Studios.
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Re: What if there was a NEW vb6
I downloaded the xerocoder thing a bit ago and started checking it out a little. They claim a 2-4 hour learning curve for an experienced programer but as I expected that is not even close. It feels very alien at first. It would take at least that long just to get a feel for the IDE and much much longer to figure out the actual coding that is/is not supported.
For example I placed a simple edit control on a form and then tried to change the text through code when a button is clicked. Took a few minutes to find the edit control and the button then when I placed code in the button click event to change the text of the control it did not work. I tried the same thing for the caption of the form and that did work so no idea why the text of the edit control did not change.
Edit: After a couple of more tries I got it to work, required the use of the Me keyword, when omitted there was no error or warning message just did not work with no indication of why.
While it looks like it may have some potential the IDE feels lacking initially.
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Re: What if there was a NEW vb6
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Nightwalker83
I was referring to the days when the migration wizard was part of Visual Studios.
RobDog did not mention that.
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Re: What if there was a NEW vb6
Quote:
Originally Posted by
dee-u
RobDog did not mention that.
I know he didn't mention it! I just wasn't sure what he was referring to.
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Re: What if there was a NEW vb6
I don't spend very much time here anymore. Thing have gotten crazy after my four biggest clients phased out Windows over the past few years.
Not a PC to be found except for developers' machines, most of those Macs dual-booting to Windows. Desktop clients are now all Chromebooks and Android all-in-ones aside from a scattering of Macs and Umbutu machines. MS Office is nowhere to be seen. Servers are almost 100% Linux or Solaris. Databases are all Oracle or MySQL. Phones are all Android or iOS. Email is almost entirely GMail.
This has meant a lot of effort to port old applications from VB6 to a combination of JVM languages and node.js. The free B4J product has proven a faster conversion target than Java in the past year and one client has decided to accept it as a production language. Once it settles down from its current rapid evolution I suspect more will accept it, and one of these will be paying me to teach it to their permanent staff at the end of this month. They already use Basic4Android though so it sold itself.
IDEs in the outside world are plentiful and quite nice, and undergoing continuing evolution. You won't find many people outside the Microsoft echo chamber praising Visual Studio as some ultimate answer for development. Some of you need to get out more.
The only VB6 work I do now is maintaining old code when major changes are needed. Most of that is server-side stuff that replaced non-performant .Net code that was ripped out in disgust. No telling when these customers will leave Windows too.
I don't expect most VB6 programmers to face that sort of change. So many of them are either hobby programmers or programming as a sideline to their "real" jobs. They can ride the train until the tracks run out, probably sometime well after Windows 9 hits the shelves or their employers migrate away from Windows.
Windows 8 did a lot of damage.
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Re: What if there was a NEW vb6
Quote:
Originally Posted by
dilettante
You won't find many people outside the Microsoft echo chamber praising Visual Studio as some ultimate answer for development. Some of you need to get out more.
Yet....
Quote:
Originally Posted by
DataMiser
...when omitted there was no error or warning message just did not work with no indication of why.
If that is the kind of **** development tools 3rd parties are producing then I'm sorry to say, the people "outside the MS echo chamber" have no idea what quality is. What DataMiser described there is simply unacceptable. MS would never produce such a **** product.
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Re: What if there was a NEW vb6
Quote:
I don't spend very much time here anymore. Thing have gotten crazy after my four biggest clients phased out Windows over the past few years.
Quote:
No telling when these customers will leave Windows too.
What industry/sector do you write software for dilettante?
I know its vastly different from sector to sector, but in my sector rightly or wrongly hell will pretty much have to freeze over before they leave the Windows platform. Most firms just didn't roll out Win8, it has a very low uptake in my sector.
Quote:
IDEs in the outside world are plentiful and quite nice, and undergoing continuing evolution. You won't find many people outside the Microsoft echo chamber praising Visual Studio as some ultimate answer for development.
VS is a pretty decent IDE it could be improved, but its a whole lot better than VB6 Visual Studio and better than Eclipse, or Delphi XE6 Rad studio. I don't pretend it is necessarily the best but it generally does what i want it to.
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Re: What if there was a NEW vb6
Quote:
No telling when these customers will leave Windows too.
I get a mental image of a developer whispering "switch" into some big wig's ears using subliminal messaging like the "smoke" guy off of Family Guy.
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Re: What if there was a NEW vb6
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Niya
Yet....
If that is the kind of **** development tools 3rd parties are producing then I'm sorry to say, the people "outside the MS echo chamber" have no idea what quality is. What DataMiser described there is simply unacceptable. MS would never produce such a **** product.
Naw... they leave that to the OS developers who decided that swallowing exceptions on form load was a good idea. And then label it a "Feature".
-tg
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Re: What if there was a NEW vb6
Quote:
Originally Posted by
FunkyDexter
I don't think I've ever seen him give a valid reason why VB.Net isn't suitable. He's given good reasons for sticking with VB6 (the size of his code base) but the only reason I've ever seen him give for not moving to .Net if he moves boils down to "I don't trust Micrsosoft". In other words he's taking a business decision based on emotion rather than reason.
1. JIT compilation is not acceptable when doing real time software that control intelligent lights, only 0 delay is acceptable. (ms has admitted to this by starting work on .net Native)
2. Some of the algorithms I have are trade secrets and took years to develop and refine,to have my source code being easily read is unacceptable.
3. For a one developer company, to take a year or more to re-write to .net would be a bad business decision. If I was going to re-write I would want cross platform capabilities(double my market share), otherwise it would be a complete waste of time. (No mono is not ready yet)
PS.. BTW
Very positive feedback from the www.xerocoder.com people... They are more than willing to do a vb6 convertor but they need to see that there is interest:
"Let's spread the word, I am confident if we have reactions of at least 50-60 developers, we can convince the business side"
http://forum.xerocoder.com/index.php?topic=273.15
Please email or comment on the forum for them to finish work on the vb6 importer for xerocoder!
WP
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Re: What if there was a NEW vb6
Quote:
Some of the algorithms I have are trade secrets and took years to develop and refine,to have my source code being easily read is unacceptable.
If you let me see the algorithm function I won't need to see your "secret code", I'll just make my version of it. I'm sure MS bashers can see this with LibreOffice, no?
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Re: What if there was a NEW vb6
Quote:
Originally Posted by
axisdj
1. JIT compilation is not acceptable when doing real time software that control intelligent lights, only 0 delay is acceptable. (ms has admitted to this by starting work on .net Native)
That's just wrong. JIT compilation has no impact on runtime activity. It has an impact on initial launch, before the app is running. The only way that would create a delay is if you launch the app as a result of an event, but who would be handling the event? Not your app, since it hasn't been running. So this is just a misunderstanding of what JIT compilation is about.
Code:
2. Some of the algorithms I have are trade secrets and took years to develop and refine,to have my source code being easily read is unacceptable.
I only know of one other program that is like that, and that company doesn't allow the software on computers that are not in the posession of their employees. Cracking code has been around FAR longer than .NET, and all of it was native back then. If you are relying on native compilation then you are assuming that your code has so little value that the only people who are willing to steal it are those who won't bother unless it is handed to them in gift wrapping.
Quote:
3. For a one developer company, to take a year or more to re-write to .net would be a bad business decision. If I was going to re-write I would want cross platform capabilities(double my market share), otherwise it would be a complete waste of time. (No mono is not ready yet)
Yeah, you've covered that. I thought you'd already realized that your best plan is to stick with VB6, yet you keep coming back around to the decision like it was new ground. Why are you so keen on re-writing anyways? After all, you brought it up, you suggested that you might go to Lazarus (then appeared to back away), and you are the one who keeps bringing it back. But you won't act on your decisions. You just keep dithering over it. If you want cross platform capabilities, or tablet capabilities, or web-driven capabilities, then you have to re-write. If you don't care about those things, then don't re-write. Either way, make a decision and proceed.
I feel that you had made the right decision when you decided to stay with VB6. What turns me off is that you don't seem to be trying to make the right decision, or any decision at all. The whole thing is becoming some kind of passive-aggressive strategy because MS didn't do what you wanted them to do, which was to give you a new language with new features that didn't require you to give up even a single line of code or re-write a single line of code. Now that it is clear that they aren't doing that, you have abandoned the line of why VB6 should be revived, and have been posting on a variety of forums how .NET is bad (apparently because it can be decompiled, a point that nobody seems to care about). In other words, instead of making a positive contribution you are trying to make a negative one.
Furthermore, you are casting about with wild ideas that you don't follow through with. First it was the kickstarter to raise money for a new VB. That didn't seem to go anywhere. There was also Olaf, except that he didn't want to be 100% VB6 compatible. Now it's xerocoder, but only if there is interest. Why would you be doing any of this if you had decided to stick with VB6? So, it sounds like you want somebody else to do something, which probably entails creating a new language or IDE, as long as it doesn't cost you any effort at all. Meanwhile you are not just saying that you don't like .NET, which is perfectly fine, but you are trying to scare others away from it with invalid reasons. Take charge yourself. If VB6 is still ok, then stick with it. If it isn't then move. But either way, make a decision and take some action on it.
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Re: What if there was a NEW vb6
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Re: What if there was a NEW vb6
Quote:
Originally Posted by
NeedSomeAnswers
What industry/sector do you write software for dilettante?
Municipal and county government is the biggest category, with some state- and provincial-level work here and there (U.S. and Canada). The next most important customers are in mineral and petroleum surveying and forestry. Everything has been smaller "one off" jobs. The government work has changed with time and I do more training than programming because they like to hire cheap temporary help to handle the grunt work and support, mostly from overseas.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
NeedSomeAnswers
I know its vastly different from sector to sector, but in my sector rightly or wrongly hell will pretty much have to freeze over before they leave the Windows platform. Most firms just didn't roll out Win8, it has a very low uptake in my sector.
Windows 8 was just the last straw for the cities who have made the move.
They were already unhappy with the support costs of Windows client and server systems which seem to require roughly three times as many "IT guys" and the lack of decent Windows-based kiosk and tablet systems didn't help matters. When Microsoft killed off Windows Mobile for WinPhone it didn't help either.
Inexpensive, low-admin desktops based on ChromeOS and Android were seen as a godsend. Once brand names like HP, Dell, Acer, and ASUS became established in this market the last barrier fell. Getting away from the high licensing and support costs for MS Office, Exchange, SQL Server, and Windows itself were a huge bonus.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
NeedSomeAnswers
VS is a pretty decent IDE it could be improved, but its a whole lot better than VB6 Visual Studio and better than Eclipse, or Delphi XE6 Rad studio. I don't pretend it is necessarily the best but it generally does what i want it to.
If it is working for you that's great. What I don't buy is that VS is the pinnacle of IDE evolution, and its continuing mutation seems to suggest that not even Microsoft thinks so. I think it just gets brought up as a silly red herring of an issue by a few of the gang here who feel their world slipping away and fear change.
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Re: What if there was a NEW vb6
In case you missed it here's a teeth-grinder, better get out the Maalox:
Prize winner in Competition "Best VB.NET Article of January 2014" (First Prize level)
Visual Basic 6.0: A giant more powerful than ever
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Re: What if there was a NEW vb6
Quote:
Originally Posted by
dilettante
In case you missed it here's a teeth-grinder, better get out the Maalox:
That being said I wonder what the reason for switching from .COM as a framework to .NET as a framework was and what was the rational behind it?
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Re: What if there was a NEW vb6
Quote:
Originally Posted by
dilettante
Kinda weird that it is so biased and that it supposedly was the best VB.Net article. Very little credibility there.
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Re: What if there was a NEW vb6
COM isn't a "framework" any more than .Net is, though the big-bag-of-.Net has a framework so people can get confused. COM is integral to Windows.
If I had to guess I'd think there were several reasons. A big one was the involvement of Anders Hejlsberg and his hatred of Windows and VB that pretty much destroyed his Turbo Pascal. Indeed, Delphi had the code name VB Killer before its first release.
Then you had the problem of thoroughly sandboxing native code in the web browser, which eventually made ActiveX too vulerable to be used. Java was making headway there and Anders (who was working at Microsoft by now) flopped by creating the VJ++ variation that resulted in a costly lawsuit, setting Microsoft back and from which they've never recovered.
As the lawsuit raged on Microsoft gathered the troops with their lawyers and built a legally defensible clone of Java instead. Project Cool became .Net and there you have it.
So it was all really driven by a combination of inflated egos and the importance of web browsers. Ironically neither Java applets nor .Net controls are safe embedded in web pages, and nobody should be doing this.
If Anders had been kicked to the curb and Microsoft had continued to evolve VB while embracing standard Java we wouldn't just have flying cars by now but probably free clean energy sources, teleportation, and universal health and well being. He is The Great Satan of the software world.
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Re: What if there was a NEW vb6
Quote:
Originally Posted by
DataMiser
Kinda weird that it is so biased and that it supposedly was the best VB.Net article. Very little credibility there.
Biased? Well I'd call it favorable but at least it doesn't suggest that VB6 should be used to the exclusion of alternatives or beat up on them in any way.
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Re: What if there was a NEW vb6
Best Vb,Net article but not talking about VB.Net.
Saying Mircosoft should listen to the 100s of thousands of programers that then turns out to be less than 15 thousand.
The chart is way off. I did a similar search myself not long ago and the results where no where near what they show.
They even go so far as to make it look like there is more VB6 code out there than there is VB code which is laughable as VB6 code is VB code and would be included.
My search showed far more matches for VB.Net than VB6 [about 6 times as many] Java turned up about 10 times as many as VB.Net and about 60 times as many as VB6.
So imo that indicates a biased and not credible source
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Re: What if there was a NEW vb6
Reply to Shaggy Killer
"Furthermore, you are casting about with wild ideas that you don't follow through with.
First it was the kickstarter to raise money for a new VB. That didn't seem to go anywhere."
That is still my goal, but to start a kickstarter without a clear defined plan that a large group of people support would be a waste of time.
"There was also Olaf, except that he didn't want to be 100% VB6 compatible."
I spoke with OLAF in detail, and he is willing to do a more close version of his framework with an IDE that supports .frm files. But, his gut feeling is that desktop apps are going to fade away and MS is only going to support window store apps in the near future, so he is reluctant to move forward on his new plans until win9 comes out, which will give all of us a clearer picture of where "win32" is headed.
"Now it's xerocoder, but only if there is interest. "
Yes, after many months they finally gave us an ultimatum, show us we have a large group that wants a vb6 convertor for xerocoder and we will do it. So that was a positive thing from them, and if enough people go over there and ask about it they will do it, this was not known a few months ago.
"Why would you be doing any of this if you had decided to stick with VB6? "
Well I am sticking with vb6 for now, and re-factoring my code to make it easier to move when I have to by removing third part .ocx's and trying to avoid vb6 specific calls.
"So, it sounds like you want somebody else to do something, which probably entails creating a new language or IDE, as long as it doesn't cost you any effort at all."
Well kind of, writing compilers and IDE's is not my forte, it's better left to someone with more expertise on that side. The way I look at it, If I can spearhead a convertor this will help many people in my same situation. I also think it is a BIG opportunity for a small company to grow quickly ( if they produce a true vb6 clone)
"Meanwhile you are not just saying that you don't like .NET, which is perfectly fine, but you are trying to scare others away from it with invalid reasons. Take charge yourself. If VB6 is still ok, then stick with it. If it isn't then move. But either way, make a decision and take some action on it"
I am really not trying to scare anyone, just telling you what I believe about .net, and I am not the only one. There are many scientist/software architechs, software developers, that feel the same way I do about .NET.
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Re: What if there was a NEW vb6
Why does nobody address my responses, I feel left out :(
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Re: What if there was a NEW vb6
Quote:
Originally Posted by
dilettante
LOL I saw that article before, I may have even quoted it in these very forums in another .Net hate thread like this. That article is just a joke. Its over-the-top ridiculous. I remember thinking the first time I saw it that is must be satirical. Gave me plenty laughs.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
dday9
Why does nobody address my responses, I feel left out :(
Here you go.....feel better :D
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Re: What if there was a NEW vb6
Quote:
Originally Posted by
axisdj
I am really not trying to scare anyone, just telling you what I believe about .net, and I am not the only one.
Really? Then why did you go into so many threads both here and on the UserVoice pointing a link to a decompiler? I assumed you were doing that because you thought that people who used .NET or were considering .NET didn't know that it wrote to an intermediate language and would be freaked out when they discovered that it did. So, why DID you post all those threads? Were you really advocating that people steal code from their competitors? That would be low. I don't sell the software I write, and it is freely given away, but if I even borrow an interface design concept from another program in the same problem domain I cite them for their contribution (there are several people from this forum cited in comments in various programs I have written if they helped me out with pieces of code or suggestions on problems).
Having said that, I'd also add that cracking code has always been illegal/dodgy, but in many countries it isn't illegal in fact, even if it technically is by law. There may even be countries where it isn't against the law. Cracked copies of most major software is available and people buy/download those copies. Whether you steal commercial code, or circumvent/remove security, is a moral choice in the end. For code that is freely given, there is no legal restriction, but whether you claim you wrote it, or properly attribute it to the true author, is still a moral choice.
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Re: What if there was a NEW vb6
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Niya
LOL I saw that article before, I may have even quoted it in these very forums in another .Net hate thread like this. That article is just a joke. Its over-the-top ridiculous. I remember thinking the first time I saw it that is must be satirical. Gave me plenty laughs.
Here you go.....feel better :D
Yeah, that article is pretty hilarious. Its almost like the programmer version of North Korean propoganda.
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Re: What if there was a NEW vb6
Quote:
Originally Posted by
axisdj
I see this as an opportunity for any start up to become huge. Just the other day I saw a job posting from CHASE for a vb6 developer. I think the amount of users a ide/complier company will gain by supporting vb6 is worth millions if not billions.
This is probably because they have some legacy system that needs to be supported and they don't want to reinvest money to update it because it probably deals with maintenance or returns little ROI compared to migration costs. For important transactions in my industry (relative to banks), I have *ALWAYS* seen Mainframes used.
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Re: What if there was a NEW vb6
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Shaggy Hiker
Really? Then why did you go into so many threads both here and on the UserVoice pointing a link to a decompiler? I assumed you were doing that because you thought that people who used .NET or were considering .NET didn't know that it wrote to an intermediate language and would be freaked out when they discovered that it did. So, why DID you post all those threads? Were you really advocating that people steal code from their competitors? That would be low. I don't sell the software I write, and it is freely given away, but if I even borrow an interface design concept from another program in the same problem domain I cite them for their contribution (there are several people from this forum cited in comments in various programs I have written if they helped me out with pieces of code or suggestions on problems).
Having said that, I'd also add that cracking code has always been illegal/dodgy, but in many countries it isn't illegal in fact, even if it technically is by law. There may even be countries where it isn't against the law. Cracked copies of most major software is available and people buy/download those copies. Whether you steal commercial code, or circumvent/remove security, is a moral choice in the end. For code that is freely given, there is no legal restriction, but whether you claim you wrote it, or properly attribute it to the true author, is still a moral choice.
I do not advocate stealing code, but yes the reason I posted it is because to my complete surprise some .NET devs do not know their code is open for everybody to see.
I'm sorry, that is pure IGNORANCE, but sadly many people just accept what the MAN gives them, and does not question anything. That is what we(vb6) guys are up against, common discussion among corporate developers will say that vb6 devs are incompetent. Well, I disagree, we actually are highly analytical and for that very reason do not favor .NET.
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Re: What if there was a NEW vb6
Well, that's the problem, of course. I don't have a problem with you prefering the language you have always worked in. I would guess that you chose it for a reason, rather than picking one at random, so it is likely that you would prefer it. What drives me crazy with your posts is the passive-aggressive nature. At one point, in a different thread, you suggested that the reason people use .NET is because they don't care about what they write. Now you state that the reason you don't favor .NET is because you are highly analytical. For that statement to be true, it would mean that anybody who does favor .NET must not be highly analytical. Not that you'd say it directly, as that would take the passive part out of passive-aggressive.
So, now you've managed to call people who work in .NET lazy and not-analytical. I'm not quite sure what the opposite of analytical is, in this context, but irrational or illogical seem to be viable choices. Perhaps you can understand why a bunch of strangers who have spent decades coding get a bit offended when some other stranger comes in stating that nobody, other than himself and possibly other VB6 coders, is rational, ambitious, wise, or even intelligent. When you add in your irrational fears, such that you don't come across as well informed about what you are talking about, such as that silliness about the JIT, you become rather easy to dismiss....except that, like some annoying gadfly, you keep coming back with more.
Drop the passive-aggression. There are LOTS of people here that are as smart, or smarter, than you. There are lots of people here who own their own businesses. There are lots of people here who care as much as you about the quality of their code. There are also lots of people here who don't agree that any of your concerns regarding .NET are valid. If you prefer VB6, then you prefer VB6. That doesn't mean that everybody who disagrees with you is either lazy or stupid.
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Re: What if there was a NEW vb6
Quote:
Originally Posted by
axisdj
I do not advocate stealing code, but yes the reason I posted it is because to my complete surprise some .NET devs do not know their code is open for everybody to see.
I'm sorry, that is pure IGNORANCE, but sadly many people just accept what the MAN gives them, and does not question anything. That is what we(vb6) guys are up against, common discussion among corporate developers will say that vb6 devs are incompetent. Well, I disagree, we actually are highly analytical and for that very reason do not favor .NET.
In my experience, I have not seen a corporation that will green light new development in old technology like VB6 because they view it as shooting themselves in the foot as in 10 years they absolutely might have to port it into something else. The big thing for my line of work is support. I develop internal business apps now. There is no worry about obfuscation of code or someone trying to steal code internally. Its all about getting from point A to point B and meeting the deliverable on time.
I will also disagree with your point on being more analytical because of a language choice. The word I think you meant to use is 'fanatical'. The language you choose is simply how you express yourself to the computer. This doesn't speak much to analytical skills. Every day I translate business requirements into results. I use .NET because in my environment now it makes the most sense but in my mind, it is only the tool I use to get to my destination. I could easily pick up another tool and get there if I so chose. Wait until your customers tell you one day that they want all of their data on the cloud, and they want more modern tools/features. If you do not think that day is coming then you are naive. You may be able now to strong-arm your customers into telling them what they they should have, but one day they will realize this as is the case at my current job. Units are now realizing developers have been doing what they know instead of what they CAN do.
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Re: What if there was a NEW vb6
Quote:
Originally Posted by
dilettante
Municipal and county government is the biggest category, with some state- and provincial-level work here and there (U.S. and Canada). The next most important customers are in mineral and petroleum surveying and forestry. Everything has been smaller "one off" jobs. The government work has changed with time and I do more training than programming because they like to hire cheap temporary help to handle the grunt work and support, mostly from overseas.
Ah that certainly explains it somewhat, you work providing software to sectors which, are either actively looking to save money on IT (Government) or are mining and distribution based (rather than service based) which have an easier time forcing a desktop move on there users.
If i owned a non service based company (so manufacturing for instance, or any business which does not rely on heavy word processor and email use) i would not use windows as a desktop as i could save my self a lot of money.
I work for a company that supplies Software to Lawyers and Barristers, Legal Secretaries are almost umbilically attached to Microsoft word and Outlook, and in the legal field in general Windows is very entrenched.
I will give you an example, i few years a go a worked for a Solicitors firm who were using the Groupwise Email system. The email system worked fine, we never had any problems with it, and we had 1 guy to look after it. The solicitors however didn't like it, in particular they didn't like the fact it didn't have the same calendar and meeting functionality as Outlook, actually the main problem they seemed to have with Groupwise was it wasn't Outlook.
Because of this the embarked on a £1,000,000 project to migrate our email servers and desktop clients to Outlook.
This took approximately 6 months or so, the hiring of 3 extra contractors, 2 extra permanent members of staff and went over budget, and missed its deadlines. Despite all this it was considered a success as at the end as they had Outlook.
We (the IT department) all thought they were completely mad, as essentially they spent well over £1,000,000 to get a better calendar and meeting organiser.
Quote:
Windows 8 was just the last straw for the cities who have made the move.
Yes i can imagine, from the first moment i saw it i could see it was totally unsuitable for business use certainly in my sector,
Windows 8 adoption is pretty low amongst UK solicitors & barristers.
Quote:
They were already unhappy with the support costs of Windows client and server systems which seem to require roughly three times as many "IT guys" and the lack of decent Windows-based kiosk and tablet systems didn't help matters. When Microsoft killed off Windows Mobile for WinPhone it didn't help either.
In many ways i agree with them, if i had a new business i would certainly look at alternative ways to run a cheap desktop through cheaper licencing deals, and newer desktop offerings, i may still use Windows in some circumstances it would just depend on the business.
My end customer however is not me and it is them that dictate what operating system i target, and they also demand a high level of integration with MS Office apps. So regardless of what i might do personally we use .Net because it fits my companies need as they sell software to solicitors & barristers.
Finally changing topics, i read the article you posted - 'Visual Basic 6.0: A giant more powerful than ever' and it contains this -
Quote:
VB programmers do not particularly like VB. NET and don't like any other versions of VB after VB6. Why? VB6 is dependent on a single file, namely: msvbvm60.dll. On the other hand, VB .NET is dependent on the .NET Framework environment, which inhibits the individualism of the programmer and this is not consistent with the human nature.
which had me pissing myself laughing, I had no idea my work had inhibited my individualism !!!
i carried on reading and came across this -
Quote:
Certain VB6 applications (compiled EXE's) are in conflict with some antivirus companies. The reasons behind this conflict are not yet known. VB6 is too strong and it has the most programmers, this may be a good reason for conflict
are you sure this is not an Article from the Onion?
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Re: What if there was a NEW vb6
I'm pretty sure Windows 8 arose as an issue for my clients because Vista's bad press had scared them into staying on XP far too long. By the time Microsoft's 2014 sunset on XP support was looming even Windows 7 was getting harder to come by. With time some of Windows 8's rougher edges have been knocked off (even the Lucky Charms are supposed to go away in Windows 9) but their first attempts to roll out Windows 8 caused an uproar.
So in three years a lot has happened. Government discounts on Macs, the rise of Chrome/Chromium OS and Android as cheap low-admin client platforms, and cloud computing all presented opportunities. And while they move in that direction legacy Windows applications can still be run off small Citrix farms via RDP client software.
Of course all this proves is that alternatives to Windows have become more viable than in the past. Conventional Linux on the desktop is still only a minor contender though for servers it remains popular.
I was most surprised by "Chrome Apps" that can run locally or use remote services and data. This moved Chrome OS devices out of the "browser in a can" class. Today these machines even run native Android applications.
Basically nobody is writing new web applications except for public-facing sites, and even there Android and iOS apps are taking up the slack. Everything has gone back to standalone desktop apps and rich-client apps which avoid the "data island" problems presented by the need for browsers to wall everything in and the huge exploit target any web application presents to scrapers. It's like a SQL Injection risk magnified many times.
The world is changing, but then it always has.
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Re: What if there was a NEW vb6
Sometimes, you have to run as fast as you can just to remain in place.
-The Red Queen (or as close as I remember it)
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Re: What if there was a NEW vb6
"The Red Queen is a self absorbed power mad beast."
-The Red King
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Re: What if there was a NEW vb6
Quote:
Originally Posted by
axisdj
...I'm sorry, that is pure IGNORANCE, but sadly many people just accept what the MAN gives them...
The man ? What are you, a hippie ? Who is this man ?
See...this is what your post had me thinking:-
http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:A...SXKYvq38Xu_fPg
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Re: What if there was a NEW vb6
Looks like Zorro to me. Zorro's the man?
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Re: What if there was a NEW vb6
You know something just hit me about all this .Net hate. VB.Net always makes me think of it as BASIC with a twist of C/C++. Much of its ability has been inspired from C/C++. Delegates are like function pointers, generics are like templates. Then we have all the unsigned types, inheritance and virtual functions. VB6 in contrast was a very very simple language hence much easier to learn. BASIC while originally intended to wet people's appetites for programming was eventually used as a normal language to write production level applications by people who just couldn't grasp the more complicated languages like C or assembly, myself included. C was way over my head when I started programming as a child but BASIC was quite easy to pick up and until VB.Net, BASIC remained fairly unchanged. Now BASIC is no longer basic so from this perspective I guess all the VB6 people really do have a point. I'm only able to use VB.Net as well as I can because I already learned about all the more advanced features of the language when I started learning C++ but as a starter language, it might just be too complicated. In this light, VB6 would make a whole lot more sense because of its extreme simplicity.
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Re: What if there was a NEW vb6
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Gruff
Looks like Zorro to me. Zorro's the man?
Perhaps, or maybe some other cloaked figure who's face we can't see.....I mean why else would they call this entity "The Man". If we knew who he was, he'd be called by name, right ?
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Re: What if there was a NEW vb6
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Niya
The Shadow ... The Shadow knows...
-tg
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Re: What if there was a NEW vb6
Quote:
BASIC was quite easy to pick up and until VB.Net
I disagree. My first language I've ever learned was VB.Net and by far it's the simplest language I've ever learned.
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Re: What if there was a NEW vb6
Quote:
Originally Posted by
dday9
I disagree. My first language I've ever learned was VB.Net and by far it's the simplest language I've ever learned.
I'm trying to play devil's advocate to throw the VB6 people a bone but it looks like even my assertion that VB.Net is difficult was dead wrong :(
Guess all these .Net hate threads have nothing to them afterall...just a bunch of childish posturing.
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Re: What if there was a NEW vb6
The man is always keepin me down man.
Can't get no where cause of the man man.
He keeps singling me out cause I got potential.
Man you better stay under the radar man.
Snug down your tin foil hats and blennnd into the wall. Man.
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Re: What if there was a NEW vb6
Quote:
Originally Posted by
dday9
I disagree. My first language I've ever learned was VB.Net and by far it's the simplest language I've ever learned.
If VB.Net is your first language then how can you compare it with BASIC??????????
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Re: What if there was a NEW vb6
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Niya
C was way over my head when I started programming as a child
Niya should change his name to Atlantis, cause both of them sank beneath the C.
It looks like Zorro to me, too.
@Rocket: Nice avatar.
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Re: What if there was a NEW vb6
Quote:
Originally Posted by
dee-u
If VB.Net is your first language then how can you compare it with BASIC??????????
It was Niya doing the comparison, not DDay, right? Or were you refering to some other post?
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Re: What if there was a NEW vb6
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Shaggy Hiker
It was Niya doing the comparison, not DDay, right? Or were you refering to some other post?
Firt Nya said:
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Niya
BASIC was quite easy to pick up and until VB.Net...
For what ever reason dday disagreed with that...
Quote:
Originally Posted by
dday9
I disagree. My first language I've ever learned was VB.Net and by far it's the simplest language I've ever learned.
which caussed dee-u to wonder what dday was smokin'
Quote:
Originally Posted by
dee-u
If VB.Net is your first language then how can you compare it with BASIC??????????
-tg
