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Re: Help, I have an urge to buy an iPad.
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Like many of your other arguments, this one is also of the type "Steve told me this". How much source code of flash applications did you see, how well do you know flash and can you make a decision for yourself if it's bad code or not?
How do you expect anyone to know anything if you can't trust the company that says it, are we going to take Adobe's word over Apple? That flash will run fine on the iPhone?. I've seen none of the source code, but it makes sense that translating one language from another will cause problems, I never said they didn't have any ulterior motives, just merely that what he said is a valid concern, and also my other two points about flash. SJ's didn't just say: "Translating Flash to an iPhone app will produce poor code", he said that it's proven or well known that a program that translates code from one language to another produces poor or poorer quality code.
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You really are just blindly listening to what they tell you, buying into their marketing and story telling, and not allowing yourself to consider even a little bit that they might have ulterior motive for what they are doing.
No, I'm not, when I'm told something, I weigh it up, if it makes sense, then I'll believe it.
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Personally, I'd be offended by such a statement if I were a flash developer.
You can rationalize their practices all you want and describe them as "protection" of users and such, but the truth is, it is censorship, plain and simple. And I can't think of a single example in history where censorship ended well.
It is censorship, but they have valid reasons for doing so.
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Re: Help, I have an urge to buy an iPad.
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SJ's didn't just say: "Translating Flash to an iPhone app will produce poor code", he said that it's proven or well known that a program that translates code from one language to another produces poor or poorer quality code.
Well' that's a bit BS because all languages get translated to other languages. That's the job of compilers, to translate your source code to machine language, or intermediate languages. Best example is Java that uses virtual machines that interpret the source differently to suit different platforms and make Java platform independent. And with that reasoning, would Steve say that Java is crap too?
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Re: Help, I have an urge to buy an iPad.
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Truthfully, you wouldn't really be able to tell if an app on the app store is malicious, that's why Apple HAS to do it this way.
I already answered this point, if all they were doing is vetting programs for Spyware & Malware and viruses then i think that would be perfectly valid but they are not.
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For example, the guy that made the app that enables you to wirelessly sync your iPhone with iTunes had that app rejected, I imagine because Apple are working to add such a feature themselves, and having that as well would just confuse people.
But isn't that just stamping on competition ? basically saying "you cant develop one of those because we are going to develop one"
Also how would it confuse people ? choice is not confusion. Choice is a good thing, as long as he doesn't proclaim that it is an apple program then i dont see what the problem is, but they obviously don't like it and are actively stifling competition.
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Nonetheless, the reasons why they won't let it exist are fair. If Apple allowed such a thing, and the Flash to iPhone compiler became popular then they are risking several problems as I said, when new APIs come out (such as OS 4) developers using the Flash to iPhone compiler would have to wait for Adobe to update it, and as SJ's said, compiling one code to another produces poorer quality code than the real thing, those are reasons enough, particularly from a business perspective.
That is in fact illustrates my point, Apple wants total control, as a PC user i use various different software by lots of different companies. I have never had a problem with them not updating there software quick enough, in fact i am not even convinced that this is a real issue just because you have new API's doesn't mean that you need to use them. Some programs will some wont depending on what they do, not on what they are written in.
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The iPhone has still been around a long time before the latest version of Android. Also, I've yet to see a thorough examination of how well it works, what kind of bugs it has, what effect it has on the battery life, does it run as smoothly as on the computer (at least not choppy).
Yes but at least they offer the choice, you dont have to use Flash if you dont want to on Android, but if you want to then you can.
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Apple prefers HTML5 because its open source, and HTML5 is able to provide the same experience at least on the video side of things
HTML5 cannot do everything Flash does, in fact it cant do many things Flash can and to say that it is an alternative to Flash is disingenuous.
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My point is, when they develop a good program that works well across multiple platforms, why would they go out of their way and spend time updating their app to support new features, that only the iOS will take advantage of?
If it is a good program what does it matter ? i have some programs that i have used for years that have barely changed and yet still work great !
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But then again, most video will be HTML5 eventually, Apple is pushing really hard
HTML5 is a Markup language not a video codec / player it only supports the H.264 video codec, and how do you know that anyway ? because Apple says ?
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You can rationalize their practices all you want and describe them as "protection" of users and such, but the truth is, it is censorship, plain and simple. And I can't think of a single example in history where censorship ended well.
I have to say that sadly this is true.
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Re: Help, I have an urge to buy an iPad.
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It is censorship, but they have valid reasons for doing so.
There is no valid reason for censorship !
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Re: Help, I have an urge to buy an iPad.
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I already answered this point, if all they were doing is vetting programs for Spyware & Malware and viruses then i think that would be perfectly valid but they are not.
I know you answered this, but I want you to tell me what apps they reject that makes this not the case?
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But isn't that just stamping on competition ? basically saying "you cant develop one of those because we are going to develop one"
Also how would it confuse people ? choice is not confusion. Choice is a good thing, as long as he doesn't proclaim that it is an apple program then i dont see what the problem is, but they obviously don't like it and are actively stifling competition.
The problem is that wireless syncing would be built into the OS, not as an app. The app also may have required private APIs etc., to function, which are not allowed in apps (it can cause crashing in later OS releases).
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That is in fact illustrates my point, Apple wants total control, as a PC user i use various different software by lots of different companies. I have never had a problem with them not updating there software quick enough, in fact i am not even convinced that this is a real issue just because you have new API's doesn't mean that you need to use them. Some programs will some wont depending on what they do, not on what they are written in.
I'm talking about Flash software in particular, not other software. Apple want developers updating their apps immediately to include new APIs (I.E, the multitasking APIs).
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Yes but at least they offer the choice, you dont have to use Flash if you dont want to on Android, but if you want to then you can.
Yeah thats true.
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HTML5 cannot do everything Flash does, in fact it cant do many things Flash can and to say that it is an alternative to Flash is disingenuous.
I never said that it was, I said, in terms of the video side of things, HTML5 can (and should) completely replace all flash video.
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If it is a good program what does it matter ? i have some programs that i have used for years that have barely changed and yet still work great !
Say we're talking about the new multitasking APIs in iOS 4, why would a developer bother to update their app just to support that, when it won't have any effect across any of the other platforms it's distributed to?
But, it is very important (to an end user) that an app supports those multitasking APIs, particularly fast app switching.
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HTML5 is a Markup language not a video codec / player it only supports the H.264 video codec, and how do you know that anyway ? because Apple says ?
I say all video will be HTML5 eventually because, HTML5 is (as Apple says) a natural progression of the web, flash is a plugin, and one that uses much CPU and GPU at that (particularly on the Mac).
I think I'll leave the flash argument alone, the iOS does not support it. It probably never will, personally I believe HTML5 is the future for video playback, but if it isn't, then it isn't.
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Re: Help, I have an urge to buy an iPad.
Well next generation, I hope they up the RAM from 256 to at least 1 gig.
And allow multi tasking.
I kind of understand why they didn't allow it. Two or more apps might eat through more than 256 megs, and require paging, and Apple doesn't want the iPad to page at all.
But if you upped the memory to 1 gig, and each app will declare what maximum memory it will use, you can say have 4 apps running at once that have a max of 256 megs each.
Or 1 super app running at 1 gig max, but no other apps are allowed to run while it's running.
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Re: Help, I have an urge to buy an iPad.
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Well next generation, I hope they up the RAM from 256 to at least 1 gig.
And allow multi tasking.
It's very unlikely that will happen, 256MB is a lot of RAM, and its plenty if you use strong memory management in your code (which Apple insist you do).
Also, multitasking will be enabled when iOS 4 is released for iPad (I'm guessing around September).
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Re: Help, I have an urge to buy an iPad.
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I'm talking about Flash software in particular, not other software. Apple want developers updating their apps immediately to include new APIs (I.E, the multitasking APIs).
Then why the such heavy handed approach to flash ? they already dont approve "sub-standard" programmes, why not just check to see if these apps are supporting the new API's within a certain amount of time and if not kick them off the app store ?
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HTML5 can (and should) completely replace all flash video.
While a bold statement this is just will never be the case. HTML5 is an improvement over previous versions but it is just not the same thing as Flash / Flex, and comparisons between the two are difficult because of this.
The same goes for Silverlight, Apple might not like these web languages that have there own runtime, but they have a place on the web and can offer functionality you cant get with just HTML5.
With HMTL5 & Ajax you can do a lot more, but i would still say you cant do some of the things that you can with Flash/Flex or Silverlight.
Ajax is far better at creating feature rich web sites but for web applications with Flash/Flex or Silverlight you can do some pretty fancy stuff. (i wont go into to all that here but you should have a look)
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It's very unlikely that will happen, 256MB is a lot of RAM
For what ?
I seem to remember a certain Bill Gates predicting that no one would ever need more than 64mg of ram in their desktop computer. It wont be long before 1 or 2 gig ram or even more is standard in phones.
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Re: Help, I have an urge to buy an iPad.
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Then why the such heavy handed approach to flash ? they already dont approve "sub-standard" programmes, why not just check to see if these apps are supporting the new API's within a certain amount of time and if not kick them off the app store ?
My point was, if Adobe don't update their "Flash to iPhone app" feature with the new multitasking APIs, developers will be stuck. Kicking apps of the app store for not supporting multitasking will get a lot of negative press towards Apple.
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While a bold statement this is just will never be the case. HTML5 is an improvement over previous versions but it is just not the same thing as Flash / Flex, and comparisons between the two are difficult because of this.
The same goes for Silverlight, Apple might not like these web languages that have there own runtime, but they have a place on the web and can offer functionality you cant get with just HTML5.
With HMTL5 & Ajax you can do a lot more, but i would still say you cant do some of the things that you can with Flash/Flex or Silverlight.
Ajax is far better at creating feature rich web sites but for web applications with Flash/Flex or Silverlight you can do some pretty fancy stuff. (i wont go into to all that here but you should have a look)
I'm not saying HTML5 will replace Flash, I'm saying it'll eventually be used for all video instead of Flash (at least the websites that are still cared for, I.E, not abandoned).
Up until recently Flash has been the most convenient and best way to play video, but HTML5 is simpler, it's not a plugin, it's a part of the web. You don't need flexibility and fancy effects to watch video, just a play, pause, fast forward and rewind button (more or less, and with some nice graphics of course).
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For what ?
I seem to remember a certain Bill Gates predicting that no one would ever need more than 64mg of ram in their desktop computer. It wont be long before 1 or 2 gig ram or even more is standard in phones.
Well, IIRC an XBOX has 64MBs of RAM, a Wii has about 40MB, an XBOX 360 has about 512MB. If you code efficiently (as Apple demands), 256MB is plenty.
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Re: Help, I have an urge to buy an iPad.
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I'm not saying HTML5 will replace Flash, I'm saying it'll eventually be used for all video instead of Flash
I would be surprised if that was the case, of course many sites will use the new HTML5 video technology but equally a lot of site have invested in doing Video with Flash already and why convert if your current website works fine ?
In a way i feel liking i am defending flash here, although i no more favour it over many other technologies, i just dont like the way Apple are locking technologies out of there platform. They on the one hand are proclaiming the support for open standards but on the other shutting out other vendors from there platform.
Apple need to be careful, as they get bigger & bigger if they continue to lock out other vendors out of potential markets they will get investigated similar to Microsoft over IE.
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Re: Help, I have an urge to buy an iPad.
I've just read that the iPhone 4 actually has 512MBs of RAM... interesting, makes the iPad's 256MB look a bit ridiculous.
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Re: Help, I have an urge to buy an iPad.
Personally, I think in todays world anything calling itself a 'smart' device with the size of a phone having less than 512MB isn't up with the times, and with iPad's size at least 1GB. With RAM small and cheap as it is today, there's really no real excuse to use less. Seriously, how much would the iPad cost more if it had 1GB instead of 256MB? 10-15$? And that's at retail memory price...
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Re: Help, I have an urge to buy an iPad.
RAM eats power, which is one reason not to go overboard.
As far as I know Apple doesn't want Java applications on their platform either.
The "control" issue probably relates to the number of Sarah Palins out there buying little kids iPhones. There were a ton of porn applications and such showing up and it hurt the marketing of the iPhone. Baby can't eat steak so we all get pablum.
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Re: Help, I have an urge to buy an iPad.
I can't understand putting 256MB in the iPad, but 512MB in the iPhone 4. The only possible thought, since the A4 is a SoC and includes the RAM package, etc., is that a 512MB A4 wasn't ready yet, or maybe it didn't simply fit.
Apparently iMovie will only work on iPhone 4, it won't even run on the iPad or 3GS :/
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Re: Help, I have an urge to buy an iPad.
I have no serious interest in this debate but I do want to make one comment. Consumers of modern technology in general as not as ignorant as us "techies" like to believe. I know some real people — as well as you lot who live in my computer — and they do actually understand concepts like USB interfaces, removable batteries, removable flash memory, and file management. Real people who are actually capable of being irritated that embedded Flash applets don't run in mobile Safari. Even if they don't understand the technical reasons why, they can still say, "None of these videos work on my phone, but on they do on Bill's. Therefore, this phone sucks."
Apple's target market may well be the people who don't care at all about these things and are happy living in an Apple bubble. But you don't have to be a complete nerd to grasp the practical differences between a WinMo or Android smartphone and an iPhone, and the same goes for the iPad. We are living and working in a modern IT-centric culture and there is no longer a definite line between a techie and a consumer.
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Re: Help, I have an urge to buy an iPad.
I had a read of this article comparing the multitasking between iOS 4 and Android, I thought it summed it up pretty well, in a nutshell, there are no big differences the two, only fine details: http://daringfireball.net/2010/04/mo...nr1-2010-04-13
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Re: Help, I have an urge to buy an iPad.
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Originally Posted by
dilettante
RAM eats power, which is one reason not to go overboard.
As far as I know Apple doesn't want Java applications on their platform either.
The "control" issue probably relates to the number of Sarah Palins out there buying little kids iPhones. There were a ton of porn applications and such showing up and it hurt the marketing of the iPhone. Baby can't eat steak so we all get pablum.
Really? I think it's more to do with cost. They're not using regular RAM. Aren't they using like 256 megs of L2 Cache or something right next to their CPU?
Power is most consumed by:
1) Fans to cool the system
2) Harddisk
3) Bunch of useless background apps consuming CPU power.
Which is why my $1,000 ASUS laptop is great for gaming, but has a 2 hour battery life (not even enough for more than one movie on an airplane) even with power saver on.
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Re: Help, I have an urge to buy an iPad.
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Consumers of modern technology in general as not as ignorant as us "techies" like to believe.I know some real people — as well as you lot who live in my computer
I lol'd :)
But seriously this is just about the only forum i visit mainly because i like the wide variety of people, their helpfulness and the humour, i also generally live in the real world (when i dont live inside the world of my own head)
What i see is young people generally get technology, and those who are really interested in it, everyone else is fairly ignorant.
I work for a software house and for instance the it is quite scary how technologically ignorant our own sales people are.
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Re: Help, I have an urge to buy an iPad.
Wait, has the OP been cured of his horrible affliction yet?
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Re: Help, I have an urge to buy an iPad.
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Originally Posted by
MaximilianMayrhofer
Wait, has the OP been cured of his horrible affliction yet?
That's rude and offensive. Being an Apple Fan is not a lifestyle choice or a disease, they're born that way. It would be like saying that homosexuals should be cured.
J/k ;)
EDIT: Just check the LGBTAF (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT)
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Re: Help, I have an urge to buy an iPad.
Now, if this isn't funny enough for you http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=03PQyWp0mWE
then Steve-O's solution to the problem definitely should be.
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Re: Help, I have an urge to buy an iPad.
I laughed when I heard his response. But honestly, if the antenna performs better with this design, but requires a case (if you hold it that way and it effects the call) to work, I'm not so fussed.
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That's rude and offensive. Being an Apple Fan is not a lifestyle choice or a disease, they're born that way
I was born a PC. I've been using Windows since I was 4, I've been set free lol.
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Re: Help, I have an urge to buy an iPad.
You came out of the Windows closet :)
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Re: Help, I have an urge to buy an iPad.
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Originally Posted by
baja_yu
Investing firms and Steve Jobs says it's not a big issue.
But it's a HUGE issue, a critical design flaw that can't be fixed with software.
A stupid mistake too since they could have put that black strip at the top.
I can't believe testing didn't get it.
I have 50 shares of Apple right now, I'm selling it as soon as the Monday bell rings.
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Re: Help, I have an urge to buy an iPad.
Now this is priceless... well, actually it's not priceless it's $29 http://store.apple.com/us/product/MC597ZM/A
Yes, please, I'd like to buy that piece of plastic that some poor kid in China or Bangladesh made for 10 cents, and I'm willing to pay $29 for it. Why you ask? Well, it's got the Apple logo on it, and it really nicely makes the phone bigger. Also it'll protect the phone if I'm in a plane crash so my precious baby doesn't get damaged.
This really has to be proof of what kind of people they are catering to. Rubber bumper, front and back foils... Why don't they just bubble wrap the whole thing. I mean how anal-retentive are some of these people. It's a phone, not a Picasso. I bought it, it didn't buy me. So what if it gets a tiny scratch?! Ok, I can buy the screen foil, but who the heck cares if the back side gets a scratch?!? Are you planning to own it forever? Does it cost 2 million and you're worried about resale value?? Jesus Christ (Superstar)...
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Re: Help, I have an urge to buy an iPad.
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You came out of the Windows closet
Nah... :p I broke free of my bondage lol jk
Honestly, I just prefer OSX. Plus, I need Expose & Spaces.
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Yes, please, I'd like to buy that piece of plastic that some poor kid in China or Bangladesh made for 10 cents, and I'm willing to pay $29 for it. Why you ask? Well, it's got the Apple logo on it, and it really nicely makes the phone bigger. Also it'll protect the phone if I'm in a plane crash so my precious baby doesn't get damaged.
They are the cases Apple is selling, I like them, they only cover the sides, not the front and the back, although I'll see when I can get to hold one, if its comfortable or not. But, you don't have to buy it, buy any case you want.
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Investing firms and Steve Jobs says it's not a big issue.
But it's a HUGE issue, a critical design flaw that can't be fixed with software.
A stupid mistake too since they could have put that black strip at the top.
I can't believe testing didn't get it.
Apple's statement:
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Gripping any phone will result in some attenuation of its antenna performance, with certain places being worse than others depending on the placement of the antennas. This is a fact of life for every wireless phone. If you ever experience this on your iPhone 4, avoid gripping it in the lower left corner in a way that covers both sides of the black strip in the metal band, or simply use one of many available cases.
If this design allows better quality calls, but requires a case, or holding it slightly different, then its worth it (to me, at least).
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Re: Help, I have an urge to buy an iPad.
That's not a design feature but a design flaw. It doesn't allow better quality calls, but quite the opposite, as that's the way people usually hold the phone. And their proposed solution (hold it differently or buy a case) is a pure afterthought. Something that requires additional parts to work, not better, but correctly and as designed, can't be called a good design.
It would have worked normally have they put the antenna on the upper part of the device, like most cellphone makers do.
Take a cellphone in your left hand and hold it up to your ear as if you were making a call. No see what you have to do and how you have to hold it to implement Steve's idea. And then try to hold that pose for a few minutes and see how comfortable it is.
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Re: Help, I have an urge to buy an iPad.
All mobile phones experience this to an extent... I believe its a software issue because its software, or maybe even firmware that is telling the iPhone which antenna to use for the best call quality, so if you cover both the bottom two, it should use the top one.
We'll see soon enough, if it is a software issue, there'll probably be a fix for it pretty quickly. Plus, only some people are reporting this issue, it might just be a defective unit.
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Take a cellphone in your left hand and hold it up to your ear as if you were making a call. No see what you have to do and how you have to hold it to implement Steve's idea. And then try to hold that pose for a few minutes and see how comfortable it is.
Personally, I don't hold my phone to my ear, I either use headphones or loudspeaker. Also, there are several ways I can hold my phone comfortably that wouldn't cover both the antenna at the bottom.
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Re: Help, I have an urge to buy an iPad.
I like how Apple invents new words for things that have existed for decades. Then people state they can't live without Mac for such and such reasons....
Compiz Fusion can do everything a Mac or Windows(Aero) GUI can do and then some.
Numerous projects do Expose-like 'window exposure'. Spaces aka virtual desktops. Windows has had this stuff too. I recall using virtual desktops in Litestep(in Windows) during the late 90's. Pretty much a de facto feature on most Linux desktops.
For some reason I don't really feel the need for Spaces aka virtual desktops on Windows. Though on a Mac I regularly use 4(because minimizing/maximizing/restoring things is such a painfully slow process).
And tablets have been around for ages, are cheaper, and come in more hardware configurations than Apple could dream of. Plus run anything you want.
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Re: Help, I have an urge to buy an iPad.
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Then people state they can't live without Mac for such and such reasons....
Just because it has been done, doesn't mean that it can't be done better. Honestly, I've never used any virtual desktop software other than one that came with a NVidia control panel, and TBH it didn't perform very well.
Windows 7 doesn't implement a Spaces like feature, and the Windows Flip 3D isn't very useful for me.
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Though on a Mac I regularly use 4(because minimizing/maximizing/restoring things is such a painfully slow process).
How is it any different from Windows? Minimise, and then you click the dock icon to bring it back up?
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Re: Help, I have an urge to buy an iPad.
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Originally Posted by
Icyculyr
Just because it has been done, doesn't mean that it can't be done better. Honestly, I've never used any virtual desktop software other than one that came with a NVidia control panel, and TBH it didn't perform very well.
Windows 7 doesn't implement a Spaces like feature, and the Windows Flip 3D isn't very useful for me.
How is it any different from Windows? Minimise, and then you click the dock icon to bring it back up?
Agreed, Flip 3D is fairly useless.
I've never tried nView. But there exist over a dozen X windows versions alone. Been around over 2 decades.... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virtual_desktop
I highly doubt Apple has done it better, but perhaps equivalently, depending on your tastes.
It's just slower. First, there's the genie effect, or whatever it's called(I heard this can be disabled in 10.6.x, about time!). There's the lag involved with that and then the restoration of the app(typically memory in RAM gets paged when apps are minimized, and moved back to RAM when restored). This is not a game. I don't want to see tacky 'special effects'! I am trying to get work done. Stop wasting my time, Mac.
Plus, as I recall, things stay in their spaces. So clicking some app on the dash can open a window in a different Space, which is kind of confusing, as sometimes apps clash, and they steal focus, and the spaces fly around and then it gets real confusing(and unresponsive all the while). I learned to just avoid the Dash, and stick with 'tabbing' between spaces. Keeping the apps situated how I like them. Parallels(Win XP or Ubuntu) in its own space, FF in another, FMP(file maker pro, until I got the Windows version running in the VM, runs much better under Windows) in another, and a terminal in another.
I could rant on Mac nuisances for days.... Cheers.
I'm not a fan boy by any means. I criticize and praise fairly! (where appropriate) I'll use a Linux, a Mac, a PC, even a UNIX. As long as it allows me to get my work done.
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Re: Help, I have an urge to buy an iPad.
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Agreed, Flip 3D is fairly useless.
I've never tried nView. But there exist over a dozen X windows versions alone. Been around over 2 decades....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virtual_desktop
I highly doubt Apple has done it better, but perhaps equivalently, depending on your tastes.
All I know is its smooth, and works brilliantly. I've never had a problem with it, my only gripe is that if you open a new application and then activate spaces, it'll show up normally rather than in the space it should be in.
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It's just slower. First, there's the genie effect, or whatever it's called(I heard this can be disabled in 10.6.x, about time!). There's the lag involved with that and then the restoration of the app(typically memory in RAM gets paged when apps are minimized, and moved back to RAM when restored). This is not a game. I don't want to see tacky 'special effects'! I am trying to get work done. Stop wasting my time, Mac.
What's just slower?
I don't see why you'd think they're tacky? Just like in Windows when you click minimise you see the window shrink, when you click minimise on OSX you see the window minimise into the dock icon, or the dock, depending on your settings, I prefer the former.
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Plus, as I recall, things stay in their spaces. So clicking some app on the dash can open a window in a different Space, which is kind of confusing, as sometimes apps clash, and they steal focus, and the spaces fly around and then it gets real confusing(and unresponsive all the while).
What's the dash? (dock?)
Honestly, I believe Spaces is the best implementation of this (simply by how well it performs and my doubts that Windows could allow an app to do this properly, in fact I've tried to build a similar program myself), I've only ever seen one other (nView) and I thought it was ok -- at the time, there is a big difference between it and Spaces.
With spaces, I can open it and see my 4 spaces (you can have up to 16) each with all their applications in them, just at a smaller size, with animated content like a progress bar, flash, a video, etc., they keep on playing. I can activate Expose to quickly find which window I'm looking for, or to flick one window to another space, I can also press the space bar over a window to preview it at its original size.
I can have an application set to open only in a specific space, I can have one set to show up on every space that I go to, or I could just leave those settings alone, and have windows open on whatever space I'm in at the time. It's all very seamless, smooth graphics, etc., my only gripe is that sometimes if you open an application and activate spaces immediately, the window will show up normally, rather than in a space.
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Re: Help, I have an urge to buy an iPad.
I usually install TweakUI on Windows, and disable "Windows Animation"(which makes minimizing/maximizing instant, unless apps ignore this -mostly MS software :sick:).
It's slow like Windows Vista or 7 on slightly dated hardware. Unless one has a 'tricked out rig' it's nearly unbearable. My computer is several year olds and still idles the vast majority of the time(statistically, 80-90% of the CPU time is dedicated to the system idle process). I find it unthinkable to upgrade solely for an OS's GUI. Sure, when the time is right, then certainly pick the 'modern software' to go with the modern computer.
Ever since microprocessors hit 1 GHz there hasn't really been any real reason to go beyond that(for the vast majority of users). Which allows companies like Apple to release 'antiquated' hardware in a 'gimmick' form factor and call it revolutionary, or Intel to release Atom processors that have about as much bang as decade old tech(though, they certainly use less power).
My most recent experiences with Mac would be on a Mac Mini with OS X.5. Even with upgraded RAM the fairly powerful Intel Core 2 Duo was sluggish compared to WinXP on even an Intel P3! They seem to have updated the Mini's specs since then, but I can tell you I would most certainly never suggest purchasing a Mac Mini to anyone(based on my experiences) unless as a practical joke. Apples get to pay doubly for a UNIX-like environment bonded to commodity hardware. If you really want *nix there's FreeBSD(or variant) or Ubuntu(or variant, a form of GNU/Linux).
If you just want to be 'normal' then there is no choice, the choice was made for you(easy!). If you want to be just like that Justin Long (anti-suit, anti-normal) there's equally no choice. It's made for you.
Repeat reading from the top until you're no longer suffering from "urges for an iPad". :lol:
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Re: Help, I have an urge to buy an iPad.
Quote:
Which allows companies like Apple to release 'antiquated' hardware in a 'gimmick' form factor and call it revolutionary
I don't really remember Apple ever calling the Mac Mini or of the likes, revolutionary, unless you talking about the iPad here.
Apple has their range of unique products, like the iMac and Mac Mini, which no other company can really compete with at the moment, they aren't really gimmicks.
Quote:
My most recent experiences with Mac would be on a Mac Mini with OS X.5. Even with upgraded RAM the fairly powerful Intel Core 2 Duo was sluggish compared to WinXP on even an Intel P3!
Any more details on the specs? 4GB of RAM both machines? Mac Mini @ 2.4GHz? P3 @ ?
Sluggish in general use?
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Re: Help, I have an urge to buy an iPad.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Icyculyr
I don't really remember Apple ever calling the Mac Mini or of the likes, revolutionary, unless you talking about the iPad here.
Apple has their range of unique products, like the iMac and Mac Mini, which no other company can really compete with at the moment, they aren't really gimmicks.
Bokanovsky's process is a success!
iMac... You mean 'all in one pc'? http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...ll-in-One%20PC
Mac Mini... you mean micro atx or perhaps nano itx form factor? Aka booksize.
http://www.newegg.com/Store/SubCateg...rebone-Systems
http://www.google.com/products?hl=en...ed=0CDMQrQQwAA
Did you miss where I stated "Apples(Apple users) get to pay doubly for a UNIX-like environment bonded to commodity hardware."? :confused:
Quote:
Any more details on the specs? 4GB of RAM both machines? Mac Mini @ 2.4GHz? P3 @ ?
Sluggish in general use?
The specs beyond those mentioned are irrelevant. Though, I was thinking maybe 1 GB of RAM, and a Radeon 9200 PCI for the P3. Which would match the specs of a HTPC I built for my parents several years ago from spare parts(they don't have HD tv, well, it supports 1024x768 as I recall, so they really didn't need anything more powerful). A P3 typically runs at 100 Mhz FSB(maybe 133).
The Mac mini would of been upgraded to 3 GB RAM running at either 667 Mhz or 800 Mhz(can't recall exactly, wasn't my machine), and afaik Intel GMA.
Certainly the Mac Mini has loads more horsepower, which is why it's so distressing that the usability between these two machines is so drastic. Which Is why I tried to stay in Parallels running XP on the mini as much as possible. Even Windows running in a VM on the mini was drastically more responsive than OS X itself.
Sluggish sums it up in a word. There appears to be a substantially improved(judging only from the spec sheet) substantially more expensive version of the Mini now available. As I recall these were $499, and are now $699. And the 'server' edition is $999, though the specs are only about a $150 upgrade over the standard. All goes back to the 'pay doubly for commodity hardware'.
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Re: Help, I have an urge to buy an iPad.
Quote:
Bokanovsky's process is a success!
I don't have any idea what you're talking about?
I never said others didn't have those products, but, if you look through the lists, they are all terrible in comparison, not only on hardware specs, but looks and price too.
I doubt you could find a comparable, yet alone better, all-in-one than the iMac (not to mention, it's getting updated soon). Similarly for the Mac Mini, although I think there are some comparable units, it's the best from what I've seen.
Quote:
Did you miss where I stated "Apples(Apple users) get to pay doubly for a UNIX-like environment bonded to commodity hardware."?
Haha, it seems I have.
Apple users don't pay anywhere near double that of a PC. Care to provide an example?
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The specs beyond those mentioned are irrelevant. Though, I was thinking maybe 1 GB of RAM, and a Radeon 9200 PCI for the P3. Which would match the specs of a HTPC I built for my parents several years ago from spare parts(they don't have HD tv, well, it supports 1024x768 as I recall, so they really didn't need anything more powerful). A P3 typically runs at 100 Mhz FSB(maybe 133).
Not really, if you say it's running slower, I'm curious why. Exactly what were you doing when it was being sluggish?
Quote:
The Mac mini would of been upgraded to 3 GB RAM running at either 667 Mhz or 800 Mhz(can't recall exactly, wasn't my machine), and afaik Intel GMA.
That would be three or four generations ago (3-4 years), I don't see how the Mac Mini could run slower with better specs though.
Quote:
Certainly the Mac Mini has loads more horsepower, which is why it's so distressing that the usability between these two machines is so drastic. Which Is why I tried to stay in Parallels running XP on the mini as much as possible. Even Windows running in a VM on the mini was drastically more responsive than OS X itself.
What were you doing though, just general use?
I'm going to assume, so correct me if I'm wrong, you're not comparing the performance of the Mac Mini with a VM running, to the P3. And, if you're comparing the usability of Windows in the VM to that of OSX, while the VM is running, it's likely the VM will be getting the most resources, so it'll perform better.
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Sluggish sums it up in a word. There appears to be a substantially improved(judging only from the spec sheet) substantially more expensive version of the Mini now available. As I recall these were $499, and are now $699. And the 'server' edition is $999, though the specs are only about a $150 upgrade over the standard. All goes back to the 'pay doubly for commodity hardware'.
Sluggish is ambiguous, if you don't explain what you mean, I have no idea. Is it sluggish in general, using a specific program, boot times, application load times?
It also might be a matter of opinion, but I'd hardly say paying $300 to go from a 2.4GHz processor, 320GB HD (5400 RPM), 2GB RAM, to a dual 500GB HD (7200 RPM), 2.66GHz processor, 4GB RAM, is unreasonable pricing, yet alone double what it should be.
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Re: Help, I have an urge to buy an iPad.
It's a literary reference.
Ok, here's an Example:
4 GB of DDR3 1333 is under $100. So that's under $50 for the RAM upgrade.
2.4 to 2.66 isn't even a 10% increase(according to Google it's a $2 difference).
You realize there are 2 TB drives now? 1 TB drives are around $60. A 320GB is around $48. A 500 is $54(so 2 for $108). Newegg was selling a 2TB drive the other day on sale for $109. The sweet spot is 1.5 TB for $80. :thumb:
You do the math on that. I got $112. The upgrade costs $300. A 2.67 times markup over cost.
I hope the iMac is getting updated. The Core 2 Duos are old news. The gfx chipsets are old news. I've never liked the idea of an all-in-one. Reminds me of a Tandy. I actually got a chance to use an iMac a few month prior to my Mac mini experience, it was pretty much the same sluggish experience as the mini -better screen on the iMac, though.
I explained my general use of it where I talk about spaces and the dock(I called it a dash!). The VM made very little difference to the overall performance, unless actually doing something intensive inside the VM, which didn't really happen. It's a quite powerful dual core, after all. The problem isn't that programs necessarily ran sluggish. The UI(WM) is sluggish. Nearly everything is animated. Everything incurs a delay of 'wait for the animation to get done'. Then animations stack... and they slow each other down terribly... and it's just slug-ville, baby(which is why I just learned to avoid, as much as possible, anything which caused sluggish animations). It seems while things are animating the responsiveness approaches zero. I guess I should of just sat back and enjoyed the lag... er... special effects?! Seems Mac has never really gotten out of the single-task paradigm(which it is completely fine, for the most part, when using a single app). My main issue was with the multi-tasking. I was working at a web design company, and occasionally had to change machines while on the phone with a customer because mine became unresponsive(I wasn't the only one!), or kernel panic, or otherwise crashed.
Yea, boot time was pretty slow, and so was shut down(easily over a minute for either). Then the kernel panics, and the lock-ups(freezes, either happening about 3-4 times a month, randomly).
Last time I had a BSOD on Windows my hard drive failed(I had a page file on the drive that failed)! I've never had much luck with XP, to be honest. My first operating system(ignoring DOS) on my home computer was Windows for Workgroups(3.11). Then 95a(didn't even have USB support). And now 2000. I've tried 98/SE, never liked it(BSOD-ville). Never tried ME. I've used XP on another of my systems, but it never lasts too long. My installation of 2000 has lasted nearly a decade. I once screwed it up on purpose a few years ago, but reverted back to an image I took before hand. It's certainly hard to dismiss what I consider to be Microsoft's crowning achievement.
Truly, Bill Gates is a visionary(Apple wouldn't even exist without him). Balmer and Jobs... I have no kind words to describe them. Simply... "they're doing IT wrong".
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Re: Help, I have an urge to buy an iPad.
Quote:
4 GB of DDR3 1333 is under $100. So that's under $50 for the RAM upgrade.
Actually, according to NewEgg, 2x 1GB modules are $43.99, and 2x 2GB modules are $99.99.
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2.4 to 2.66 isn't even a 10% increase(according to Google it's a $2 difference).
I'm not sure if I found the right processors but I think I have, Intel Core 2 Duo 8600 @ 2.4GHz is $219.99, and 8800 @ 2.66GHz is $259.99.
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You realize there are 2 TB drives now? 1 TB drives are around $60. A 320GB is around $48. A 500 is $54(so 2 for $108). Newegg was selling a 2TB drive the other day on sale for $109. The sweet spot is 1.5 TB for $80.
There are no 2 TB drives available for laptops, the highest is a 1 TB $154.99 5200 (unless it's a typo and meant 5400) RPM drive.
One 320GB 5400 RPM laptop hard drive is $49.99, one 500GB 7200 RPM laptop hard drive is $74.99.
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You do the math on that. I got $112. The upgrade costs $300. A 2.67 times markup over cost.
And, I chose the cheapest option available for every item I found on NewEgg. Its laptop RAM and hard drives that are being used, not desktop ones.
So, the cost for all those parts comes to about $50 for the RAM, $100 for the drives, and $50 for the CPU, which is $200, minus $15 for the lack of super drive in the server, you get $185.
At no point have I ever been referring to markup, merely Mac vs PC price for the same thing. Any computer part you buy yourself is going to be cheaper than if you bought it from a computer company such as Dell, Apple, etc.
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I hope the iMac is getting updated. The Core 2 Duos are old news. The gfx chipsets are old news. I've never liked the idea of an all-in-one. Reminds me of a Tandy. I actually got a chance to use an iMac a few month prior to my Mac mini experience, it was pretty much the same sluggish experience as the mini -better screen on the iMac, though.
I explained my general use of it where I talk about spaces and the dock(I called it a dash!). The VM made very little difference to the overall performance, unless actually doing something intensive inside the VM, which didn't really happen. It's a quite powerful dual core, after all. The problem isn't that programs necessarily ran sluggish. The UI(WM) is sluggish. Nearly everything is animated. Everything incurs a delay of 'wait for the animation to get done'. Then animations stack... and they slow each other down terribly... and it's just slug-ville, baby(which is why I just learned to avoid, as much as possible, anything which caused sluggish animations). It seems while things are animating the responsiveness approaches zero. I guess I should of just sat back and enjoyed the lag... er... special effects?! Seems Mac has never really gotten out of the single-task paradigm(which it is completely fine, for the most part, when using a single app).
This isn't indicative of a Mac, whatever you're experiencing is very abnormal.
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My main issue was with the multi-tasking. I was working at a web design company, and occasionally had to change machines while on the phone with a customer because mine became unresponsive(I wasn't the only one!), or kernel panic, or otherwise crashed.
Quote:
Yea, boot time was pretty slow, and so was shut down(easily over a minute for either). Then the kernel panics, and the lock-ups(freezes, either happening about 3-4 times a month, randomly).
It sounds like to me that this machine is owned by the web design company you work for, that they bought it several years ago, which means it would have shipped with Tiger, it's been used for a while, and then upgraded to Leopard.
There were huge changes from Tiger to Leopard, upgrading a machine, particularly one that's been used a lot can cause a lot of problems. It'd be very likely that simply doing a clean install would fix all the issues you're having, unless of course there are hardware issues causing the KPs (but at least the other issues).
It's a bit like upgrading an old machine from XP to Vista, and then using that as your judgement of how well PCs perform.
I've got a stock 13" 2010 MBP (2.4GHz Core 2 Duo) at home, and it has none of the issues you've mentioned, it's snappy as ever. I'd recommend you try a newer unused Mac sometime because you have a very bad impression of them, and I might as well if I'd have used that machine.
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Re: Help, I have an urge to buy an iPad.
Yea, I was stating the price for 2x2GB DIMMs. A dual channel kit. Not a 4GB DIMM.
But it wasn't abnormal. As I stated it's the same from iMac to Mac Mini. Even for a Macbook Pro(had to fix an issue on my boss's MBP).
I think the Mac Mini I was using either came with Leopard or was a clean install. Everyone else was using Tiger, and didn't seem to have as many kernel panics or freezes as I did. They were jealous at first... but after all the issues I experienced they were glad to still be using Tiger. I was at first using Tiger, but I complained enough, and they replaced it with the Leopard machine(telling me I was their guinea pig! :lol: ). It's certainly not machine-specific.
I have no idea about the internals of the mini beyond Apple's site, and Apple's site is apparently horrible for tech specs.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Apple.com
320GB or 500GB Serial ATA hard disk drives1
...
Dual 500GB 7200-rpm Serial ATA hard disk drive1
$48(including shipping) for 500 GB 7200 RPM laptop HDD: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16822136278
$47(free shipping) for 500 GB 7200 RPM laptop HDD: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16822148452
A 320 GB (7200 RPM) is more expensive, starting at $60. It seems we found the same price for the 5400 RPM models($50). :lol:
Hard drive upgrade cost: $44
The SO-DIMMs are also cheaper. 2x2GB can be had for $80. http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16820159024
2x1 SO-DIMMs, $44: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16820231285
Ram upgrade: $36
Laptop demand is high, supply is high... prices drop. :thumb:
I'd think a server would come with ECC RAM.... :confused: But this is impossible, as the platform doesn't support it. Making a Mac Mini 'server' a ridiculous idea. The Xeon-powered Macs would be a good server platform(if they didn't cost an arm and a leg)!
EDIT: OK! Using a site that's clearly not made by Apple I found meaningful technical specs! In which case, on Newegg there's a $40 difference.
p8600: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...-009-_-Product
p8800: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...1014&Tpk=p8800
CPU upgrade: $40
Total upgrade cost: $120 Multiplier: 2.5. Markup*: $180 (I was originally only $8 off using completely wrong specs!)
There's absolutely no solid reasoning for purchasing one of these. They're antiquated(they seriously just released these models this month? :lol: ). A modern system can be had for far less, about $300 can get a complete AMD tri-core PC(based on the Athlon II X3).
Tom's Hardware regularly releases specs for sub $600 "budget" gaming machines. The latest is fully DX11 compatible(Radeon HD 5770) that'd easily dominate a Mini in any conceivable performance benchmark.
*Markup is the difference between the cost of a good or service and its selling price. This isn't including Newegg's markup... obviously.
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Re: Help, I have an urge to buy an iPad.
Quote:
Yea, I was stating the price for 2x2GB DIMMs. A dual channel kit. Not a 4GB DIMM.
So was I.
Quote:
But it wasn't abnormal. As I stated it's the same from iMac to Mac Mini. Even for a Macbook Pro(had to fix an issue on my boss's MBP).
I think the Mac Mini I was using either came with Leopard or was a clean install. Everyone else was using Tiger, and didn't seem to have as many kernel panics or freezes as I did. They were jealous at first... but after all the issues I experienced they were glad to still be using Tiger. I was at first using Tiger, but I complained enough, and they replaced it with the Leopard machine(telling me I was their guinea pig! ). It's certainly not machine-specific.
I have no idea about the internals of the mini beyond Apple's site, and Apple's site is apparently horrible for tech specs.
As I said, I recommend you try a new Mac for a few minutes, sometime, whenever convenient.
If the Mac Mini has Intel GMA graphics, that would be at least 3 generations ago (3 years), it would have shipped with Tiger. Unless someone has gone out of their way to erase the hard drive before installing Leopard, it would just be upgraded.
My only point is, if it was upgraded, it could definitely cause all those problems, sluggish animations, freezing, kernel panics, poor performance, etc.
Whether it's on Tiger, Leopard, or Snow Leopard, you should have no issue with your machine, calling Apple (and some time) would usually fix this, but its in a work environment, so it's not your job.
Both of those products are 160GB 7200 RPM drives.
That's 800MHz RAM.
Quote:
I'd think a server would come with ECC RAM.... But this is impossible, as the platform doesn't support it. Making a Mac Mini 'server' a ridiculous idea. The Xeon-powered Macs would be a good server platform(if they didn't cost an arm and a leg)!
It's called Mac Mini Server because it runs the server version of Snow Leopard.
I sorted the items in NewEgg by lowest price and chose the cheapest item:
320GB 5400 RPM drive $50: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16822152208
500GB 7200 RPM drive $75 (2x): http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16822148374
2GB (2x1) 1066MHz RAM $43: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16820231285
4GB (2x2) 1066MHz RAM $98: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16820220338
That's where I was getting the price from lol, I should have posted links :p
Quote:
*Markup is the difference between the cost of a good or service and its selling price. This isn't including Newegg's markup... obviously.
I'm aware of that
Quote:
There's absolutely no solid reasoning for purchasing one of these. They're antiquated(they seriously just released these models this month? ). A modern system can be had for far less, about $300 can get a complete AMD tri-core PC(based on the Athlon II X3).
Tom's Hardware regularly releases specs for sub $600 "budget" gaming machines. The latest is fully DX11 compatible(Radeon HD 5770) that'd easily dominate a Mini in any conceivable performance benchmark.
You're comparing the Mac Mini to a desktop system, of course you'll get better for the same price or less. That's like comparing a desktop to a laptop and saying don't buy the laptop because the desktop offers more performance, whilst it may be true, you might want the laptop form factor.
You might argue that this isn't a mobile computer like the laptop, but it doesn't matter. It's still a different product, targeted for a specific demographic, who like will likely buy such a computer. For those who want a tiny computer that looks great and has very few cables, the Mac Mini might be appealing, for those who want a budget gaming machine, it probably won't.
As I originally said, the difference adds up to about $200, so Apple would be making $100.
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Re: Help, I have an urge to buy an iPad.
Depends how you buy it. Upgrading the base model: http://store.apple.com/us/configure/...co=MTgxNTgzNzk
The upgrade for CPU is over 3x, and the RAM is basically double(hard drive seems to be the most reasonable upgrade price). Which costs more than the server and doesn't even include the extra hard drive.
I really doubt a system without a DVD/CD drive is acceptable for most people. Pretty much comparing apples to oranges.
Whoops. :)
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Re: Help, I have an urge to buy an iPad.
Man did this thread become boring..
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Re: Help, I have an urge to buy an iPad.
Quote:
Depends how you buy it. Upgrading the base model:
http://store.apple.com/us/configure/...co=MTgxNTgzNzk
The upgrade for CPU is over 3x, and the RAM is basically double(hard drive seems to be the most reasonable upgrade price). Which costs more than the server and doesn't even include the extra hard drive.
I suppose so... it doesn't really sound like an unreasonable markup for those prices, maybe the CPU is a bit, but not by much.
Quote:
I really doubt a system without a DVD/CD drive is acceptable for most people. Pretty much comparing apples to oranges.
Whoops.
I doubt it is, but it doesn't really matter, we're only comparing the prices of the parts. It's a slightly cheaper deal than if you were upgrading it from the regular model.
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Re: Help, I have an urge to buy an iPad.
Anyone know when the Google Android Tablet is coming out?
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Re: Help, I have an urge to buy an iPad.
Which one?
There are a few slates that have been announced that are running Android, the WePad, and the Gemini slate, for example.
Or is this a slate Google is actually producing?
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Re: Help, I have an urge to buy an iPad.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
capsulecorpjx
Anyone know when the Google Android Tablet is coming out?
I'm waiting for the new Cisco tablet(not that I have any intention of buying one, just curious). Supposedly it's an iPad killer.
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Re: Help, I have an urge to buy an iPad.
There won't be an iPad killer, till Apple fanboys and fangirls have been culled from the herd.
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Re: Help, I have an urge to buy an iPad.
Found this interesting series of benchmarks comparing Ubuntu 10.04, OS X 10.6.3, and Windows 7 on a two Mac Minis(one Intel, one Nividia for gfx)
http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?pag...ws_part3&num=1
Basically, Windows 7 performs better than OS X on Apple's own hardware. Anyone surprised?
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Re: Help, I have an urge to buy an iPad.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
FireXtol
Found this interesting series of benchmarks comparing Ubuntu 10.04, OS X 10.6.3, and Windows 7 on a two Mac Minis(one Intel, one Nividia for gfx)
http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?pag...ws_part3&num=1
Basically, Windows 7 performs better than OS X on Apple's own hardware. Anyone surprised?
No, Windows performs better on games than OSX. That isn't a surprise to me, I always get less FPS on OSX than Windows, its due to not-so-great GPU drivers.
Steam is working with Apple at the moment to get their drivers working better, and also to fix whatever Apple broke to degrade performance in 10.6.4 with NVidia GPUs.
