The DB file for this message board must be huge!

As another example that the market hasn't a clue and shouldn't be used as a measure...

The Ford Explorer is the best selling SUV in America (if not the world). Is it the best SUV on the road? Not by a long shot, and don't even think otherwise.

Admittedly it is cheaper than several other SUVs that are remarkable better. The Hummer, anything from Land Rover, the Toyota LandCruiser. One could argue that the Chevy line is better than the Ford one.

Anyway, just because VB is used so much, doesn't mean it is the best. It just means... well, I won't go into what that analogy implies. ;)

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Originally posted by CiberTHuG
Anyway, just because VB is used so much, doesn't mean it is the best. It just means... well, I won't go into what that analogy implies. ;)

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I don't think anyone is saying VB is "the best." You're saying it's for hobbyists; we disagree. We aren't claiming that any one language is "the best."

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Originally posted by aknisely
I don't think anyone is saying VB is "the best." You're saying it's for hobbyists; we disagree. We aren't claiming that any one language is "the best."

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Good point. And yes, I don't think any language is the best. Perl is my favorite, but I wouldn't use it for certain things.

It isn't about best, it is about suitability for a purpose. To carry the analogy further: people who are in mini-van denial buy Ford Explorers. I would wager that 9 out 10 (if not more) Ford Explorers will never leave the pavement. Those that do are just for weekend campers, aka hobbyist. And that is all the SUV they need. The telcos and power companies use Ford Explorers for a little light off-road duty, mainly travelling down poorly kept dirty roads to high tension lines.

But when they really need something they move up to Ford Heavy Duty F Series, or Broncos. The military used Jeeps and now Hummers. And I've yet to see a safari show that didn't use Toyotas or Land Rovers.

But the Ford Explorer out sells them. My point is, having market share doesn't mean you are adequately suited for a purpose.

You shouldn't race a Carolla in NASCAR, you shouldn't race a Thunderbird in GT.

Think of it like this... what kind of furniture do you make out of press board or particle board? Disposable furniture. You make $40 book cases that you will throw away in five to ten years.

If you want to make a dinning room table that will last for three generations, you use real wood.

VB is not suited for retail grade applications, unless your buyers are going to dispose of the product in 3 years. And I don't mean upgrade.

If IE had been written in VB, then it would have been completely rewritten in the last (almost) ten years. Same goes for MS Office. If you are making an application for personal use, or you are making an in house application for short term use, then fine, VB is appropriate.

Regretably my client will have to completely re-write this application if they want to keep selling it in 2006.

Anyway.

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It isn't about best, it is about suitability for a purpose.

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I can no longer count on my hand how many times you switched your position here ;)

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If IE had been written in VB, then it would have been completely rewritten in the last (almost) ten years. Same goes for MS Office. If you are making an application for personal use, or you are making an in house application for short term use, then fine, VB is appropriate.

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Office was written in C++. What about Web applications? Microsoft's Expedia.com service uses ASP/VB, and it runs fine.

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Originally posted by aknisely
I can no longer count on my hand how many times you switched your position here ;)

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Yeah, I get lazy. My position hasn't change. It is just easier to say "VB sucks" then to say "VB is ill suited for mission critical or business retail application development. VB is a hobbyist language."

Especially since anything you enjoy coding in VB you will enjoy code more in Perl/Tk. 'Course, if you didn't enjoy it (understand what you were doing), then don't mess with Perl.

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Office was written in C++. What about Web applications? Microsoft's Expedia.com service uses ASP/VB, and it runs fine. [/B]

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Yes, that is what I'm saying. If it had been written in VB it would've had to have been rewritten. As it is, they could fix and add features, but the base engine would live on. They could overhaul, but still that base engine would be there, and allow them to port it to MacOS. If it was in VB we would never see MS Office or IE on the Mac.

And though you may think Expedia runs fine, I have a host of complaints with it. Some of them may not even be related to VB, since I imagine the site is very IE-centric.

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Originally posted by CiberTHuG
If it was in VB we would never see MS Office or IE on the Mac

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So? You sacrifice compatibility for ease-of-use.

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Originally posted by aknisely
So? You sacrifice compatibility for ease-of-use.

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Ease-of-use is in the mind of the programmer. VC++ would be easier then VB since I could use pointers.

As far as I'm concerned, for loops are easier in any other language (that I've worked with).

C++ and Perl will also short-curcuit, making conditionals easier.

That aside, portability is much more important to me then wether or not the programmer gets to use VS. I don't mind there being MS boxes in the world. I just want people to understand, they have a role, and they are not the answer. I guess I could add that "VB is ill suited for cross-platform projects." So if your application is specific to Windows, so be it.

As a news tangent... Wall Street (the SAIC, which is the commitee that manages the NYSE) is changing over to Linux. I'm not sure what they are switching from, I imagine AIX or something else IBM specific. Point to the tangent is, every OS has a role, and NT/W2K is ill suited to handle the NYSE.

I honestly am not sure if it is a good idea to run Linux in this case, but if IBM feels confident about it, let 'em go for it.

The NASDAQ is run by Windows 2000. At least, the Web site is.

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Originally posted by davem
Well since we are in this VB sucks war... Anyone who has developed a retail program that has been sold in stores - here is a question for you. I am making a program (with VB) and I plan to try and sell it in stores... has anyone done this, will the store's scoff at my program because it was made in VB? Boooo
:(

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Unless they install you app and are tech-savvy, they won't know.

I think you're all missing something. CiberThug is a LINUX user. He tries to stay within about 100 feet of anything that starts with "Micro". So of course he hates VB. And Expedia is too "IE-centric" as if there is something wrong with that.

I partiallly disagree with those views, but I respect them and I'm not going to sit and argue with him about it. After all, wouldn't it be boring if we all used the same programs and langugaes?

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Originally posted by jpbtennisman
I think you're all missing something. CiberThug is a LINUX user. He tries to stay within about 100 feet of anything that starts with "Micro". So of course he hates VB. And Expedia is too "IE-centric" as if there is something wrong with that.

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Well, I'm not a Linux user, yet. I'm trying. I'm learning and I'm getting there.

I hate VB because it serves no purpose for me. For small jobs I can use Perl. For big jobs, well, that is the problem.... to many people are using VB for stuff it shouldn't be used for.

As to being IE-centric. Yes, that is a problem. We have standards. They are not Linux standards, they are not Mozilla/Konquerer/Netscape/Opera standards. They are W3C standards. The point behind them is so everything is in the open and any browser can view any page.

Sun was also heading up an open Java standard, but MS refused to play, wanting to introduce lots of closed MS features. That underminds the point behind a standard.

'Course, it would be differet if MS innovated, introduced a technology. No one can name a single technology that MS has produced and brought to better the world.

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I hate VB because it serves no purpose for me. For small jobs I can use Perl. For big jobs, well, that is the problem.... to many people are using VB for stuff it shouldn't be used for.

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Then don't use Vb and quit crying about it.

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As to being IE-centric. Yes, that is a problem. We have standards. They are not Linux standards, they are not Mozilla/Konquerer/Netscape/Opera standards. They are W3C standards. The point behind them is so everything is in the open and any browser can view any page.

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Expedia isn't just a Web page. It's a Web application. With Web applications, you often have strict requirements on what client software can be used. Since most of Expedia's potential audience uses Internet Explorer, it only makes sense to make your application IE-centric if it adds functionality.

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Sun was also heading up an open Java standard, but MS refused to play, wanting to introduce lots of closed MS features. That underminds the point behind a standard.

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Tough cookies. Not everyone gets a crack at creating standards.

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'Course, it would be differet if MS innovated, introduced a technology. No one can name a single technology that MS has produced and brought to better the world.

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Of course, what about the MS Office Toolbar? You see toolbars everywhere now, and they were first introduced with MS Office in 1991 or something. Or COM? Or DCOM? Or .NET? I'm sure you believe that Microsoft just ripped these things off of other companies, but if you want to be ignorant of the truth, that's your problem.

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Originally posted by aknisely
Then don't use Vb and quit crying about it.

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Think of me as trying to improve the entire human race. :)

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Expedia isn't just a Web page. It's a Web application. With Web applications, you often have strict requirements on what client software can be used. Since most of Expedia's potential audience uses Internet Explorer, it only makes sense to make your application IE-centric if it adds functionality.

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All of that functionality could be achieved with Java, you know. Oh... but that would mean you have cooperated with an open standard, and that your users can use your resources without being dependent on your product.

Microsoft is a corporate drug dealer, nothing less.

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Tough cookies. Not everyone gets a crack at creating standards.

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Wouldn't be so bad if MS made an open standard. But that would undermind their position since anyone could deal their crack.

Real companies have no fear of compitetion. Sun is still alive and kicking ass even after making an open standard. And can you believe, people make money off of ANSI C/C++ and Perl, even though they are completely open, cross-platform standards? Wow... can you imagine that? :)

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Of course, what about the MS Office Toolbar? You see toolbars everywhere now, and they were first introduced with MS Office in 1991 or something. Or COM? Or DCOM? Or .NET? I'm sure you believe that Microsoft just ripped these things off of other companies, but if you want to be ignorant of the truth, that's your problem.

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I don't consider the toolbar and improvement to benifet man. It is just a button bar. Wow... another waste of mouse movement.

As to COM/DCOM/.NET? Well, as far as I can tell, these are just different generations of the same thing. And while it is a good idea, why do they keep re-inventing it? As to their origins, I don't know. It is possible that MS innovated that idea. Anyone know for sure?

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All of that functionality could be achieved with Java, you know.

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Yeah, well, they choose to use VBSCRIPT and OCX's. They probably run faster than Java. Whether or not there are other things you could have used for a particular project is irrelevant.

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I don't consider the toolbar and improvement to benifet man. It is just a button bar. Wow... another waste of mouse movement.

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You asked for innovation: the introduction of something new. The toolbar is something new, something that you might not make use of, but 99% of the real people on this planet who work with Windows software do.

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As to COM/DCOM/.NET? Well, as far as I can tell, these are just different generations of the same thing. And while it is a good idea, why do they keep re-inventing it?

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COM is for use in one application. DCOM is for use over a network. .NET adds a lot more, but includes Web Services, which is a way of accessing compiled components from another Web site. This proves not only that Microsoft innovates, but continues to improve on a technology.

Also,

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Silly coder, that project is too big for VB.

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I've written about ten thousand lines into a Web-based game into ASP and ActiveX DLLs, and I expect that number to at least double. VB can handle big projects.

Fine, you can do it, you can beat your head agains a wall. Who cares.

Everything you have done can be done smaller, faster, better, more effiecent and reliable in a host of more powerful languages.

I can't believe it is that hard to learn C++ (as an example).

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Fine, you can do it, you can beat your head agains a wall. Who cares.

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You do. You're the one trying to change humanity for the better, or whatever it is. But that isn't the case, is it Travis? You only want to change the minds of people who already agree with you, and bicker with those who don't. Talk about banging your head against the wall.

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Everything you have done can be done smaller, faster, better, more effiecent and reliable in a host of more powerful languages.

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How the hell do you know that? I just told you what COM was, because you had no idea. You're only believing anti-microsoft rhetoric that is spoonfed to you by computer science idealists.

Incidentally, my code runs fast; on a single Windows 2000 Server with SQL Server 2000 PIII 800 with 512MB, it performs very well with under the stress simulator. Hasn't crashed at all, and we've had it for about six months.

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I can't believe it is that hard to learn C++ (as an example).

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It isn't, I think I'm coming along quite quickly. Believe it or not, C++ doesn't do anything and everything under the sun.

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Originally posted by aknisely
How the hell do you know that? I just told you what COM was, because you had no idea. You're only believing anti-microsoft rhetoric that is spoonfed to you by computer science idealists.

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***? Go get a degree, okay?

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It isn't, I think I'm coming along quite quickly. Believe it or not, C++ doesn't do anything and everything under the sun.

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I didn't say it did. I said anything VB can do, VC++ can do better. You mention COM. I know what it is, and like I said, COM/DCOM/.NET are all generations of the same thing. You agree to that. So your fancy little VB website could be done better in VC++. Imagine that, everybody, even MS makes better solutions then VB.

VB is for at home/hobby use only.

{To be sung to the tune of 'jingle bells..'}

ciberThug... ciberThug...fighting all the way...
every minute,every hour fighting all the day..