Impeachment

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Originally Posted by NeedSomeAnswers

What would have to happen for the Republicans to actually follow through with the Impeachment though would it need Giuliani to flip?

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It would probably require Trump to kill a kitten in a satanic ritual. Killing a person probably wouldn't be enough.

That's only half kidding, too. Impeachment is an inherently political act. For both parties to remove any president, it requires that sufficient numbers of both parties make the calculation that they are better off without that particular president. The Republicans have made the calculation that they are dead meat if they even criticize this president, so removing him is out of the question at this time. They are probably right in that. With the gerrymandering that has built most safe districts, Republicans are only really worried about being attacked from the right in the primary. Gerrymandering has happened for both sides, but Democrats are less easily attacked from the left, being a more amorphous position.

With Republicans, though, they've long had a fault line running through the center of their party, which makes them oddly susceptible to attacks from their right wing. The party is generally seen as the party of business...and social conservatives. These two positions don't overlap nearly as much as would be convenient. Some see the Republican party as being a party of fat-cats, and they certainly do have some, but the average Republican is not rich. In fact, I believe that they tend to be less well off than the average Democrat. I haven't seen any data on that, and it is pretty likely that the average independent (or non-affiliated) is financially better off than card-carrying members of either party. So, while the Republicans are seen as the party of business, they are not predominantly business. The business folks would prefer different policies from the social conservative folks. The two groups have different priorities.

Trump acts more like a classic Democrat when it comes to business and trade (protectionist, against free trade), but he stirs up the social conservatives like none other. It's a potent mix. Lots of Republicans in Congress probably loathe his positions (or else they've been lying for the last couple decades when it comes to their trade views), but if they oppose him, the social conservative branch, which outnumbers the business branch, will thrash them in the primary.

So, the Republicans won't oppose him unless he were to do something so appalling to the social conservative wing of their party that they stop supporting him. What he does in Ukraine...doesn't even register.

The other shoe:

https://youtu.be/rYwe_K9Dxio

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What would have to happen for the Republicans to actually follow through with the Impeachment?

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Pretend Trump is a Democrat...they would be all over that!

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Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker

Trump acts more like a classic Democrat....

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Remember, Trump has spent more time as a democrat than as a republican......

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Originally Posted by brad jones

Remember, Trump has spent more time as a democrat than as a republican......

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Never as an elected democrat...They wouldn't have him.

The hits just keep coming:

https://youtu.be/h2h_vSn8Ktg

No wonder neoliberals have so little use for Jimmy Dore these days.

This is what I hate about all these youtube channels: they tailor to their demographic to tell them what they want to hear. Not saying Dore is wrong, as I watched the thing live and agree that lawyer made a better case than the others.

However, he doesn't even show the other lawyers or any of the points they made; Dore is simply driving home the narrative he chose without showing opposing views.

It is funny how often people post videos like these that don't even discuss the opposing side of view -- that is the biggest problem in all of this, neither side is willing to actually listen and admit both sides may have a point, or even contrast their points. It is simply videos with the title "DESTROYS" or other similarly ridiculous titles for clickbait, pandering to their target demographic so people can say "see! I was right!".

You can easily find videos as well from David Pakman or Sam Seder I'm sure, that state the complete opposite result.

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I watched the thing live and agree that lawyer made a better case than the others.

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You could have saved yourself time and just got his talking points off of Faux News...

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Originally Posted by TysonLPrice

You could have saved yourself time and just got his talking points off of Faux News...

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But that is the exact opposite point I was making... Why trade one biased source for another? I watched the whole thing so I could make my own opinion on what was discussed.

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Originally Posted by kfcSmitty

But that is the exact opposite point I was making... Why trade one biased source for another? I watched the whole thing so I could make my own opinion on what was discussed.

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You missed my point...they are the same source. Republican picked talking points. Turley was the trained parrot. His views were the opposite when it was Clinton.

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...clickbait...

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There's your problem, right there. It's a mistake to assume that the purpose of this is to inform. It's purpose is to make you click... or repost.

Incidentally, it's also a mistake to think this is about pandering to their adopted demographic. It's just as much (probably more) about provoking contrary demographics. When you saw that that headline you already knew it was going to be bollocks but what did you do? Yeah, that's right, you clicked on it.

If I'm honest, the only reason I didn't is because I'm at a client site and there's no sound on this PC. And guess what I'm going to do when I get home this evening. I'm going to click on it. Because I just can't resist the feeling I'm going to get when I can sit back in consideration of my superiority over Dil because he clearly doesn't perceive his own bias.

I'll be completely missing the irony that I clearly don't perceive my own bias either but that won't matter...because I don't perceive it.

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Originally Posted by TysonLPrice

You missed my point...they are the same source. Republican picked talking points. Turley was the trained parrot. His views were the opposite when it was Clinton.

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My point is that, by watching the live broadcast with the counter points, I am not only able to get the points he was told to talk about, I am also able to see the counter argument the other lawyers were making. Fox News would not have the opposing view. Whether the talking points Turley brought up were the same or not, I am able to get both sides of the argument and make my own mind up.

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Originally Posted by FunkyDexter

There's your problem, right there. It's a mistake to assume that the purpose of this is to inform. It's purpose is to make you click... or repost.

Incidentally, it's also a mistake to think this is about pandering to their adopted demographic. It's just as much (probably more) about provoking contrary demographics. When you saw that that headline you already knew it was going to be bollocks but what did you do? Yeah, that's right, you clicked on it.

If I'm honest, the only reason I didn't is because I'm at a client site and there's no sound on this PC. And guess what I'm going to do when I get home this evening. I'm going to click on it. Because I just can't resist the feeling I'm going to get when I can sit back in consideration of my superiority over Dil because he clearly doesn't perceive his own bias.

I'll be completely missing the irony that I clearly don't perceive my own bias either but that won't matter...because I don't perceive it.

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Just want to say I always like your posts... I don't think I've ever seen a post by you that has ever made me think you're anything more than the most calm person I've ever met.

Just remember, still waters run deep: You never know what evil lurks in the heart of Funky D.

I didn't listen to the law prof testimonies. That part seemed totally pointless, to me. The constitution leaves enough wiggle room when it comes to impeachment that you could drive anything through those loopholes. Impeachment is, and always will be, a political act. Even if the crime is both real and mundane, impeachment is political. After all, I really doubt that the people on either side in Congress would not be on the opposite side if the incumbent had a D rather than an R after their name.

Instead, I listened to the testimony of the witnesses. I was quite impressed with the competence of the ambassadors. I guess you'd expect them to be well spoken, but it was still impressive. I was also impressed with the spectacle put on by both parties. Having grown up in a legislative environment, I'm well aware that everybody was speaking for the camera. It's an act, and they should be evaluated as any other actor is evaluated. From that perspective, I found the Democrats more natural, because I felt that some of the Republicans were straining over their roles. Some weren't, especially that guy from Ohio, whose name I've currently forgotten (and won't bother looking up). I thought he was natural in his role, and took to it with great enthusiasm. Others seemed painfully aware that they were reading the script and didn't really own their character.

I'd say that a case could be made either way...and will be, but that's just a distraction. Impeachment is politics, and politicians do politics.

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Impeachment is politics

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That's a little too broad for me...it can be used as a political tool. It is also a constitutional mechanism to keep a "check and balance" on a corrupt president.

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I don't think I've ever seen a post by you that has ever made me think you're anything more than the most calm person I've ever met.

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I seem to manage to be pretty calm on t'internet but in real life I'm afraid I'll throw a hissy fit and get all sweary at any device that doesn't work the way it should. In an increasingly detached and digital world that represents an ever growing body of provocation. The saga of my fight with the electronic catflap is legendary and my neighbours still look at me funny to this day. I've had to stop playing XCom games because I was a one man driver for a shortage of unsmashed keyboards in the Greater Bristol area.

People are great. Things, on the other hand, should learn to do what they're ruddy well told.

DOH!

The moment Collins is finding out his stall tactics plan to have the articles of impeachment vote late at night fails :D

I wonder if any one has checked into getting Mexico to pay for the impeachment :eek:

They'd probably be happy to chip in

Well today is the day and unless there is an unexpected surprise Trump will be impeached today...I sit next to a staunch republican that supports Trump 100%. We help each other every day with the technical side, share stories about our families, even root for the same sports teams. When it comes to politics we do not discuss anything. We are a microcosm of the political divisiveness in our country. We are past even broaching the subject civilly.

His talking points are the same things you hear on Faux News and Breitbart and you can find mine on CNN and the "liberal lying press". I completely support the impeachment. I also think Trump is unfit to be president. I do not get any pleasure from what is about to happen.

So here comes phase II...the senate trial. It will be the flip of what just happened on the house side. This time the republicans have the majority and will be running the show. Democrats will complain about the process and republicans will dictate what happens.

I'm really not happy about this at all. I really wish Trump would have stayed under his rock and out of politics.

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We are a microcosm of the political decisiveness in our country

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I think you meant "divisiveness":p. There's precious little decisiveness on either side of the pond lately:).

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Originally Posted by FunkyDexter

I think you meant "divisiveness":p. There's precious little decisiveness on either side of the pond lately:).

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I did...changed it. Thanks!

By impeaching, are the Democrats actually going to help Trump get re-elected? The Senate will find him not guilty - so he won't be removed from office and will fight the 2020 campaign for re-election. The polls haven't really shifted so those that despise him won't vote for him and those that love him will. It'll probably come down to the floating/un-deceided voters - and some of these may feel some sympathy for him and vote for him in 2020 thus ensuring he's re-elected. I'm harbouring a suspicion that the vote to impeach will backfire and that other tactics would have been better to try to remove him in the election.

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and some of these may feel some sympathy for him and vote for him in 2020 thus ensuring he's re-elected

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That would be like having sympathy for the bubonic plague :p

I agree it will come down to the independents. Red and blue are pretty well locked in. If the republicans would impeach him they could put their weight behind Pence and wash that orange stain off their hands and the fabric of this country.

Figuring out who will be helped and who will be hurt by this process is one of the more ubiquitous side-games in this event. It has been widely debated by pretty nearly everybody, and without any consensus. The last impeachment (Bill Clinton) clearly hurt the Republicans more, which suggests that this one could hurt the Democrats more, but there is no evidence that that is the case. In fact, it is kind of looking like it won't have all that much net impact in any direction. The population, as a whole, is slightly in favor, but so slightly in favor as to be within the error of the polls. Furthermore, the support is weighted towards the more populous states, which tend to be Democratic anyways. Therefore, it probably won't change a thing.

I'm glad the House chose to impeach for two reasons,

1) It shows the president that people are watching and will be held accountable for his actions.

2) Anything that aggravates, complicates or basically makes this morally bankrupt man's life more miserable makes me happy. :):) Thinking about voting for him just to so he will have four more years of this.

Wonder where I can get a "Four more years" sign for my yard?????

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1) It shows the president that people are watching and will be held accountable for his actions.

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For me, that's the important bit. Although it's not just about showing this president, it's about showing all future ones too. Bringing this impeachment might well back fire on the Democrats and hand Trump a martyr card to play at the next election. But failing to bring had the potential to have far worse ramifications at some point in the future. You may dislike Trump but you can pretty much guarantee that the future is, at some point, going to hold someone far worse.

I agree but...

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1) It shows the president that people are watching and will be held accountable for his actions.

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Sadly the people that he has surrounded himself with let him do what he wants. It was a whistle blower that started all this. Just how much more is going on that we will never know about. He recently made a change limiting access to his meetings even more.

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2) Anything that aggravates, complicates or basically makes this morally bankrupt man's life more miserable makes me happy. :):) Thinking about voting for him just to so he will have four more years of this.

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I have been living with this shame for a while now...I switched to republican and voted for him in the primary. My intent at the time was to try and throw a wrench into the republican campaign by voting for the obvious idiot that couldn't win. Little did I know how many "people" there are out there that where going to vote him in.

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Wonder where I can get a "Four more years" sign for my yard?????

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I really hope it is from the trash heap of history.

The world can always invent better idiots.

So I guess the step is a fair trial and a first class acquittal....

Nobody is fooled that this is anything but a partisan act. But it isn't even that simple. More worrying are the voices from the faux left clamoring to elevate Pence, and that speaks volumes about what is going on. It's a neoliberal establishment witch hunt attempting to beat back a rising populist mood in the country.

The parallels with what's going on in the UK, France, and a little more quietly elsewhere are obvious.

This is Pinochet, Reagan, Thatcher, the Clintons, Blair, Macron, and so on.

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Originally Posted by dilettante

Nobody is fooled that this is anything but a partisan act. But it isn't even that simple. More worrying are the voices from the faux left clamoring to elevate Pence, and that speaks volumes about what is going on. It's a neoliberal establishment witch hunt attempting to beat back a rising populist mood in the country.

The parallels with what's going on in the UK, France, and a little more quietly elsewhere are obvious.

This is Pinochet, Reagan, Thatcher, the Clintons, Blair, Macron, and so on.

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It was a partisan act because the republicans abrogated their constitutional duties of checks and balances years ago out of fear of the orange headed ogre "primarying" them. They would have happily impeached Obama, or any other democrat, if the tables were turned but under the same circumstances.

I have never heard anybody on the left or the right suggest elevating Pence. The guy's useless to both sides. He's a hard-core evangelical with a spine of jelly, as his tenure as governor showed: He'd push through some strong, conservative, thing....then back down as soon as there was any opposition. The left doesn't want him because they're afraid he won't back down. The right doesn't want him because they know he will.

The Republicans are spineless on this impeachment. A few make good points, the bulk are making disingenuous points which are intended to mislead those who didn't listen to the testimony.

I sort of like this new strategy of holding the impeachment documents till the Senate outlines the trial rules. This may produce a more legitimate trial or maybe there wont be one because they're unable to reach an agreement. Then both sides can play the blame game until the 2020 elections. Oh hell what am I thinking, they'll be playing the blame game no matter what happens. Maybe Fox News and CNN have convinced the congress to draw this out as long as possible because their TV ratings are so high. lol

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there wont be one because they're unable to reach an agreement. Then both sides can play the blame game until the 2020 elections.

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^That's my prediction

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I have never heard anybody on the left or the right suggest elevating Pence

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What I have seen is people (mostly but not exclusively from the right) claiming that to impeach Trump is equivalent to elevating Pence as he would be the successor. There's a difference between equivalence and equality though. The purpose of impeaching Trump is not to elevate Pence, although that may be the outcome.

Has anything actually happened? From the little I've seen, it seems to be a good solution for insomnia.

No, nothing has happened, nor is it likely to. It isn't clear whether enough Republican senators can be convinced to vote for including witness testimony. Without that, there's no new anything about this. Both sides get to speak, but not a bit of it will be new.

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Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker

No, nothing has happened, nor is it likely to. It isn't clear whether enough Republican senators can be convinced to vote for including witness testimony. Without that, there's no new anything about this. Both sides get to speak, but not a bit of it will be new.

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Things might change a bit regarding witnesses now that excerpts of John Bolton's upcoming book leaked out. But at this point any group that is still denying climate change can ignore just about anything.

This question/answers are such a SHAM! Each side is asking themselves questions to themselves to reinforce what they said already. No Challenging each others positions. Geez!

All i have to say is this: We impeached Clinton for Obstruction of Justice. Now we are impeaching Trump for Obstruction of Justice. THAT is a Quid Pro Quo.

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Originally Posted by Lord Orwell

All i have to say is this: We impeached Clinton for Obstruction of Justice. Now we are impeaching Trump for Obstruction of Justice. THAT is a Quid Pro Quo.

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Trump has already been impeached. It is in the past. Now we are trying him.