What happens when you die?

Now this is were it gets shady if someone copied me right now there would be 2 Beacons with the same opinions etc. etc.
But would I be living 2 lives seeing through both sets of eyes etc. nope.

1 would walk down the street and see a red car adn he'd note that it was a red car and the other may not get out of bed so he doesnt see the red car!

2 individuals the orginal and the copy! If the original died then he wouldnt keep living in the copy his thoughts and feelings would but not actually him!

Thats is taking also into account that god made us!;)
But we've discussed this b4.

So you dont believe there is a thing as a spirit which keeps on living tygur?

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Originally posted by simonm


What? This must be twaddle! What is on the outside "bounding the universe? Are you saying vacuum has a fabric to it?

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Simonm - its going to use up a lot of the forum if we have to reproduce a freshman astrophysics course here so can I point you to http://www.mathpages.com/rr/s7-01/7-01.htm as I did CiberThug.

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Originally posted by simonm
I might believe the universe is a finite in size but unbounded (i.e. a hypersphere).

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And what exactly is curved into a hypersphere? The vacuum ;)?

And what is it curved into (i.e. what is outside it) - you have just run into the same twaddle :)

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And what exactly is curved into a hypersphere?

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Well, there's always the possibility that there are an infinite number of spacial dimensions.

But, if 3D space is not enclosed in a hypersphere then I still find it difficult to accept that there could be any other bounds to the universe.

Still, I shall go to the site you recommend and so what's going on. :)

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Originally posted by simonm
...That Jesus' body resurrected in the same body (not another one).

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I'm gonna be looking into our literature to make sure I'm right about this point. I'm starting to think I may have it wrong, so I gotta make sure..

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Originally posted by Kzin


We are talking about what used to be called Natural Philosophy and is now called Science. If you are considering a non-empirically based philosophical construct then just about anything goes and we can shift to a completely different type of discussion - more entertaining but less fruitful. (e.g its "all Monads and its eternal damnation for anyone who doesn't believe in Monads")

If you are unaware of recent work I suggest that you read Daniel Dennett and Francis Crick's recent books to give a good background on the subject before thinking any further.

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I have a problem and I also have limited time, without having to read through tons of books, can you shortly define what conscieness is and how it is related to physical nature? If this is science, i'm going to be very thankful for what you have to say :)

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Originally posted by Kzin
Can I ask you to go over this more clearly please. I don't think that it is purely a language problem that we are having here (just looking at the first three words for example - Software is data. . . well MY software executes - it is not just data ;) . . .
[/B]

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Okay, i'll explain.
It's data, you can't deny that but Executes.. well does software need to be executed to be software, you may ask yourself? No it's built for execution. To go into lowlevel description It's instuctions for the processor, data of two types; instruction identification and memory address, that's data isn't it? In programming terms, software derives data, and implements the ability to execute. Whether the software is bad or good, short or long, it's still software, which is data, you can rename any file type .exe it will execute but it probably will malfunction, but it's still a malfunctioning software. It is how the observer defines to use it.

I know this is a very obvious issue but you demanded me to ******** it and here we are :) But don't forget the rest of what I said, besides this example what more?

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Originally posted by kedaman

I have a problem and I also have limited time,

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I know it must be annoying (because you have limited time) but can I ask why you have limited time (Essay?, ECT?, Death?, Boredom?) - as it will affect the depth and type of answer . . .

if you are trying to derive a subjective truth without reference to what is already known (as I gathered by looking at one of your recent threads) then I'm afraid that by the very nature of thing only you can get there and no-one else can really help you ;)

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Originally posted by kedaman

read through tons of books, can you shortly define what conscieness is and how it is related to physical nature? If this is science, i'm going to be very thankful for what you have to say :)

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Its very difficult to give a cogent and coherent coverage without the background material (. . . in the Dilbert cartoons there is a bit where a secretary tells Dilbert "Tell me everything you know about Software Engineering - I don't care if it takes all day . . .") ;) . . . well its a bit like that . . .

Beacon
I forgot to reply to your message

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Now this is were it gets shady if someone copied me right now there would be 2 Beacons with the same opinions etc. etc.
But would I be living 2 lives seeing through both sets of eyes etc. nope.

1 would walk down the street and see a red car adn he'd note that it was a red car and the other may not get out of bed so he doesnt see the red car!

2 individuals the orginal and the copy! If the original died then he wouldnt keep living in the copy his thoughts and feelings would but not actually him!

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Actually, you can't say that for certain without trying it out. There is too much involved that we have very little information about. Also, I'm not talking about two copies existing at the same time.

Like I said, the computer illustration is a bit crude. There is probably something about your "state" (as mentioned in the illustration) that actually defines you (your perception, consciousness, commonly called soul but I don't like that word, also called spirit but I'm not so sure about that one either).

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So you dont believe there is a thing as a spirit which keeps on living tygur?

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Nope

Kzin
Ok, just don't look at the other threads of mine in this case, I want you to get me the "scientific" perspective on conscience. I want a simple anwer, and depth, you're choise actually :) I have limited time as in time for something under an unlimited amount of time. I'm just scheduling time for what I should do on my spare time, if you know what I mean ;) I'm seriously interested though so judge on that instead.

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Its very difficult to give a cogent and coherent coverage without the background material (. . . in the Dilbert cartoons there is a bit where a secretary tells Dilbert "Tell me everything you know about Software Engineering - I don't care if it takes all day . . .") . . . well its a bit like that . . .

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If this is what you're expecting me to ask from you then hehe not really :) I'm just asking for a definition and that should also conclude how it relates to physical nature, oh and don't write a whole essay, I'd like to discuss so that we can concentrate on what I think is relevant.


simonm

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I think your analogy is flawed. OK, scientists still cannot explain what gives rise to consiousness and some cannot accept that it could from an entirely mechanistic process but it is still conceivable that consiousness is a function of brain activity

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Who are you to judge? At times I even wonder if I'm just not looking trough the eyes of a biological robot, experiencing the decisions of it as if they were mine, being a passive observer. At times I said, I'm still experimenting with the pieces for the puzzle I'm trying to solve. You know I'm also openminded to the counter analogy that consiousness is induced from intelligence.

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That Jesus' body resurrected in the same body (not another one). I mean, if it was someone elses body, surely a more logicial explanation is that after Jesus dies, someone got up and started saying that they were Jesus ressurected into a new body. How could anyone have been sure it wasn't an imposter?

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afterlife sounds to me like an contradiction, however I could distinguish between physical death and loss of my conscience. About "a more logical explanation..." doesn't really fit into the picture, logically doesn't it? The bible doesn't derive our current scientific views and you know it, it might derive our ancestors or it might derive our future generations but it's probably not meant to have any dependencies at all.

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Well, there's always the possibility that there are an infinite number of spacial dimensions.

But, if 3D space is not enclosed in a hypersphere then I still find it difficult to accept that there could be any other bounds to the universe.

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I agree partly, but I'm experiencing a 3 dimensional physical universe, but 3-dimensional is a mathematical term and so our knowledge and perspective are again restricted to OUR models of universe... What is 3D without an observer?

Beacon & Tygur

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This is so exact that the "copy" might as well be the original.

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But would I be living 2 lives seeing through both sets of eyes etc. nope.

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I really enjoyed reading your conversation(because it's bringing many issues of my interest)
Depending on how we define conscience we face different issues.

Which is original? If you have two identical copies there's no way to identify the original which makes it just a concept of your perspective. From your perspective if you were copied you'd have no choise but to accept that there is a possibility that you are the copy, the physical copy. From perspective of conscience your conscience might get duplicated, this is totally ok if you think conscience is induced from physical matter or even conceptual intelligence. I'm not sure but it might be possible you could share the conscience of two beings, but if they're slowly going to differ from each other or if theyre going to influence each other on the basis that they are the same individual by conscience, brings up some new issues, and there's no examples, are there?
If you define conscience as the passive observer, you face new issues, who's going to take the copy's place as observer if any at all?

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Originally posted by Tygur
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So you dont believe there is a thing as a spirit which keeps on living tygur?
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Nope
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So how do you define conscience?

That was next question dammit!:)

Tygur: How could forget about me!!!:( ;)

I took the 2 living at the same time as an example to say that each one of us has something that cant be copied or replaced. This is a persumption!! Why i say this is because 2 everyone else if 1 copy died the living copy would be beacon same old same old! But to the living and dead copy of beacon they would still be 2 separate ppl! Just with similar thoughts and ideas!

When i die i'm dead i cant be cloned and brought back to life it aint me it's a copy of me! I'm still dead but there is just another person walking around exactly like me!

Which brings me to the point of Jesus coming back to life. If he was a copy it wasnt Jesus it was Jesus2 with the same beliefs.
I also disagree with him coming back in a new body! He came back to life in the tomb where his body lay. Some folk came past seen the boulder had moved and found that jesus was alive!
Well thats how i remember it!

And if there is no spirit or soul what is the holy spirit??

Keda: Sharing conscienceness well, perhaps Twins have been known to do freaky things like thinking same thing at time knowing when one is hurt etc.

Beacon
After some research, I'm gonna revise my stand..

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I took the 2 living at the same time as an example to say that each one of us has something that cant be copied or replaced. This is a persumption!! Why i say this is because 2 everyone else if 1 copy died the living copy would be beacon same old same old! But to the living and dead copy of beacon they would still be 2 separate ppl! Just with similar thoughts and ideas!

When i die i'm dead i cant be cloned and brought back to life it aint me it's a copy of me! I'm still dead but there is just another person walking around exactly like me!

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Maybe..but maybe not. How all that works out is unknown. It's never been observed, so we can't say anything for sure. There could be another fact about all this we have no clue about. Cloned isn't the best word, by the way. It implies regrowing. I'm talking about duplicating.

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Which brings me to the point of Jesus coming back to life. If he was a copy it wasnt Jesus it was Jesus2 with the same beliefs.
I also disagree with him coming back in a new body! He came back to life in the tomb where his body lay. Some folk came past seen the boulder had moved and found that jesus was alive!
Well thats how i remember it!

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This is the part where I'm gonna revise my stand. In the beginning, Jesus was a spirit creature. Then he was born in a perfect body. Then he lived for about 33 years before dying. Then he was resurrected, but not to another human body. He was resurrected as a spirit creature, which is what he was before being born on earth. He did take on a human form numerous times after his resurrection, but that didn't make him human.

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And if there is no spirit or soul what is the holy spirit??

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It is God's active force that he uses to do his will.

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Keda: Sharing conscienceness well, perhaps Twins have been known to do freaky things like thinking same thing at time knowing when one is hurt etc.

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This should contribute to the idea that much is unknown about what would happen if someone was duplicated...


Kedaman

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So how do you define conscience?

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I think you used the wrong word. You mean what is commonly called the soul or spirit (while it is still in the body), right?

Your soul is you. It's your physical body. It's yourself.

Your spirit is your life-force. It dies with you when you die. Think of it like a fire that powers a steam engine. When it dies, the engine dies. And you don't typically take it out of the steam engine. (This illustration is slightly flawed because you can poke a stick in there, light the end, and use it to start something else on fire.)

Tygur:

If your spirit is you life force and it dies when you die then jesus's must of died correct. But you say that god got a candle and lit it with Jesus Flame!

Nope the bible says " That after the resurection Jesus only showed himself to his deciples but he was in a different form. I.e Not human. He then accended to heaven where he was given control of Heaven and Earth. He said " He who has seen me has seen the father, he who want to see the father must go through me."

So he was a spirit when he died!

Luke 16 says:

19There was once a rich man who wore expensive clothes and every day ate the best food. 20But a poor beggar named Lazarus was brought to the gate of the rich man's house. 21He was happy just to eat the scraps that fell from the rich man's table. His body was covered with sores, and dogs kept coming up to lick them. 22The poor man died, and angels took him to the place of honor next to Abraham.d
The rich man also died and was buried. 23He went to helle and was suffering terribly. When he looked up and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side, 24he said to Abraham, "Have pity on me! Send Lazarus to dip his finger in water and touch my tongue. I'm suffering terribly in this fire."

25Abraham answered, "My friend, remember that while you lived, you had everything good, and Lazarus had everything bad. Now he is happy, and you are in pain. 26And besides, there is a deep ditch between us, and no one from either side can cross over."

27But the rich man said, "Abraham, then please send Lazarus to my father's home. 28Let him warn my five brothers, so they won't come to this horrible place."

29Abraham answered, "Your brothers can read what Moses and the prophetsf wrote. They should pay attention to that."

30Then the rich man said, "No, that's not enough! If only someone from the dead would go to them, they would listen and turn to God."

31So Abraham said, "If they won't pay attention to Moses and the prophets, they won't listen even to someone who comes back from the dead."

So if you are a full believer in the bible tygur do you believe in that?

Back to the copying thing.

But still physically they are 2 people are they not and in the end they will be 2 people unless they're sharing the same brain!

If i had heart problems i can replace my heart. If i had something wrong with my brain i cant replace that! If i copied my brain and got rid of the bad one would i still be me?
To you i would be because humans recognise ppl via speech. physical appearences, names, thoughts etc.
But to me would i be the same person?
Does the brain contain the "soul"? Would "I" continue to live?

Tygur"Your soul is you. It's your physical body. It's yourself. "
I disagree your body is your body your soul is a part of you which no body knows where it is. It's the thing that is you.

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If your spirit is you life force and it dies when you die then jesus's must of died correct. But you say that god got a candle and lit it with Jesus Flame!

Nope the bible says " That after the resurection Jesus only showed himself to his deciples but he was in a different form. I.e Not human. He then accended to heaven where he was given control of Heaven and Earth. He said " He who has seen me has seen the father, he who want to see the father must go through me."

So he was a spirit when he died!

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I explained all that in my previous post. Jesus was not resurrected to a human body. He came back as a spirit creature. I said all that in my last post. How I could've gotten so confused into claiming he went into another human body I may bever know. But I disclaimed all that in my last post.

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So if you are a full believer in the bible tygur do you believe in that?

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Yes, I am a full believer in the bible. Jesus was telling a story. You just quoted a parable told by Jesus. None of it is true. It's all symbolic.

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But still physically they are 2 people are they not and in the end they will be 2 people unless they're sharing the same brain!

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Physically, yes.. I'm going to make an illustration. I will be making this illustration up in my head and it isn't a view that I have. It's completely and utterly false. With that in mind, suppose the body and consciousnes are separate, but linked together somehow. Sort of like a pointer. The body would be pointing to the consciousness. Then if there are two bodies, they'd both be pointing to the same consciousness. Now suppose without a body pointing to it, a consciousness goes dormant, since it can't do anything without a body to manifest itself through. And if the body gets duplicated, both point to the same consciousness. This would be a case where the person would see with both bodies..

Here's another one. Suppose everyone's brain resonates on a different frequency (this takes some imagination). And if a body gets duplicated, both brains would resonate with the same frequency and be linked that way.

There is just too much we don't know.

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Beacon
If i had something wrong with my brain i cant replace that! If i copied my brain and got rid of the bad one would i still be me?

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That is a critical question. If, as some believe, consiousness is not merely a brain function, how would you copy it?

If I took a snapshot of your brain and built up an exact replica, cell by cell, would it be a replica of you?

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Tygur
Jesus was not resurrected to a human body. He came back as a spirit creature.

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So he wasn't really resurrected attall then was he? The whole "miracle" of the resurrection was that he came back in the same body and not merely as a "spirit creature".

simonm

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So he wasn't really resurrected attall then was he? The whole "miracle" of the resurrection was that he came back in the same body and not merely as a "spirit creature".

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The whole "miracle" was that he came back at all. He was very much dead for 3 days.

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The whole "miracle" was that he came back at all. He was very much dead for 3 days.

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But he only revealed himself to his disciples. More like they were sitting round in a cave wondering what to do (after their leader had died) and they saw a shadow in the corner and called it Jesus. How do we know it was Jesus. No one else saw this "thing".

I think you'll find the definition of resurrection means comming back to life in the same body. Not in a duplicate body and not as a shodow creature.

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I think you used the wrong word. You mean what is commonly called the soul or spirit (while it is still in the body), right?

Your soul is you. It's your physical body. It's yourself.

Your spirit is your life-force. It dies with you when you die. Think of it like a fire that powers a steam engine. When it dies, the engine dies. And you don't typically take it out of the steam engine. (This illustration is slightly flawed because you can poke a stick in there, light the end, and use it to start something else on fire.)

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I don't have the same definitions as you, you're assigning different properties to yours. If you say soul is your physical body, then why don't you say so then? To me my body may or may not be part of myself, also depending in what sentence you use it.

Kedaman

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Who are you to judge? At times I even wonder if I'm just not looking trough the eyes of a biological robot, experiencing the decisions of it as if they were mine, being a passive observer.

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Well, I only said 'I think your analogy is flawed' not that it is flawed.

If you are, indeed, a passive observer and are being deluded that you are making decisions when you are actually receiving them from an external entity, could this entity be your consiousness? Surely you, the passive observer, is the consiousness even if it isn't your consiousness making the decisions?

You, the being that is aware (if not the decision maker), are the consious being. To have consiousness is to be in a state of awareness. OK, you can't tell if anything comming into your awareness is real or not but does it matter?

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Originally posted by simonm


But he only revealed himself to his disciples. More like they were sitting round in a cave wondering what to do (after their leader had died) and they saw a shadow in the corner and called it Jesus. How do we know it was Jesus. No one else saw this "thing".

I think you'll find the definition of resurrection means comming back to life in the same body. Not in a duplicate body and not as a shodow creature.

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His apostles (I'm thinking you meant his apostles. There were only 12 of them, while his disciples were just anybody that had faith in him.) weren't the only ones he showed himself to. In 1 Corinthians 15:3-8, Paul listed various times Jesus showed himself. In verse 6, it says Jesus showed himself to around five hundred people on one occasion.

I screwed up big time when I talked about that computer illustration and I regret it. I wasn't thinking straight. I should've said the same computer was being rebuilt. And I should've been saying that Jesus was resurrected as a spirit creature the whole time.

I looked in various definitions and it doesn't seem to matter how someone comes back to life for it to be called a "resurrection". Here are two definitions I found:

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to bring back (someone) to life, or bring back (something) into use or existence that had disappeared

To bring back to life; raise from the dead.

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I'm thinking you meant his apostles

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As I understood it, they were called his disciples as well.

As for the definitions of "resurrection" you found:

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To bring back to life; raise from the dead.

to bring back (someone) to life, or bring back (something) into use or existence that had disappeared

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If Jesus' body was not brought back or raised then he wasn't resurrected (replacing it with a shadow creature doesn't count). :rolleyes:

simonm

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As I understood it, they were called his disciples as well.

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Yes, they were. But the way you were talking about them, it looked like you were talking about a small group of twelve instead of the much larger group that believed in Jesus. The apostles were also disciples, but not all disciples were apostles.

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If Jesus' body was not brought back or raised then he wasn't resurrected (replacing it with a shadow creature doesn't count).

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You got that out of those definitions? How? Jesus himself was brought back as a spirit creature. That's what he was before being born on earth as a human. Jesus is a "someone" and he was brought back. His human body wasn't, but that doesn't mean he wasn't brought back, nor does it mean "resurrected" isn't a good word to use. What word would you prefer?

Tygur:

So Jesus was a spirit creature somehow either he morphed into a human or died and was re-incarnated as a human. Then he died as a human to become a spirit again!

So really if he was a spirit all along he didnt die at all! He just left the body when it's life stopped probably went a sunk some beers with god then came back down.

So jesus is living proof of spirits and what happens when you die. If you dont believe in heaven then you dont truly believe the bible! Only spirits or souls can go to heaven according to the bible that is!

Quote Tygur "Yes, I am a full believer in the bible. Jesus was telling a story. You just quoted a parable told by Jesus. None of it is true. It's all symbolic. "

Sounds a bit like the bible doesnt it! Quoted parables told by different people?
It's all just symbolic.

I agree with Keda on the definitions.

Simon:
Depends am i still living while your building it?
I persume not so i answer sort of yes. I will always be subject to your relevance and in what state my mind was in when you took this replica etc etc.

Which is my point how would you copy it? You wouldnt? But we dont know whether it is or not a brain function!

Beacon

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So Jesus was a spirit creature somehow either he morphed into a human or died and was re-incarnated as a human. Then he died as a human to become a spirit again!

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In the beginning he was a spirit creature. Then he was born as a human child. (Don't ask me how, God has his ways) He wasn't a spirit in any way, shape, or form when he was living as a human. When he died, he died just like the rest of us. He didn't come out of his body because he wasn't a spirit creature then. Then a couple days later he was raised up in a spirit body.

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So really if he was a spirit all along he didnt die at all! He just left the body when it's life stopped probably went a sunk some beers with god then came back down.

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He wasn't a spirit all along. He was a spirit before and after his time on earth. But during those 33 (I think it was 33) years as a human, he was a human and not a spirit.

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Sounds a bit like the bible doesnt it! Quoted parables told by different people?
It's all just symbolic.

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Not all of it. But when someone in the bible says "Let me tell you a story" or something of that nature, whatever follows won't be true. But it would be true that the person told the story.

"He wasn't a spirit all along. He was a spirit before and after his time on earth. But during those 33 (I think it was 33) years as a human, he was a human and not a spirit. "

How can you be so sure. Why didnt he just posess the human body! Like demons do supposedly!
Mary wasnt impregnated as such! Not by Joseph anway! No one did the deed apparently.

So in fact he died to become human then died again to become a spirit again. Surely he didnt die so many times!
He is a spirit can spirits die?
I doubt it!

Tygur quote "Not all of it. But when someone in the bible says "Let me tell you a story" or something of that nature, whatever follows won't be true. But it would be true that the person told the story."

But the Bible is just stories told by different people!
Why can you not believe the story in the bible but believe the bible isnt a story!

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How can you be so sure. Why didnt he just posess the human body! Like demons do supposedly!
Mary wasnt impregnated as such! Not by Joseph anway! No one did the deed apparently.

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How can he posess a human body if there was none within Mary for him to posess? You yourself just said nobody impregnated Mary, and you were right about that. God put him in there. We all know it's possible.

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So in fact he died to become human then died again to become a spirit again.

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He died to become human? I never thought of it that way.. I guess so..

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Surely he didnt die so many times!
He is a spirit can spirits die?
I doubt it!

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Why not? Of course spirits can die. Of course, they don't die of old age, but I'm sure they can die..

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But the Bible is just stories told by different people!
Why can you not believe the story in the bible but believe the bible isnt a story!

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You believe your history book, right? (If you're not in school anymore or don't have a history book, think back to when you did have one) Your history book describes greek mythology. It says that people told those stories to others. I'm sure you don't believe in the myths described. But you do believe the history book is telling fact.

That history book in the illustration can be likened to the bible. The bible wasn't passed down by word of mouth. It's a book.

"How can he posess a human body if there was none within Mary for him to posess? You yourself just said nobody impregnated Mary, and you were right about that. God put him in there. We all know it's possible. "

No god made one for him to posess!

What do spirits die of? They cant be shot, run over etc. Unless spirits get dieseases?

Ok but were does it state that it was a "story" told by jesus?
Isnt the bible just a third persons view of events and tellings?
So infact really it could be just a book of short stories which in context of the history book are the greek myths?

The history book is factual that the greeks told these stories and perhaps believed them.

Beacon

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No god made one for him to posess!

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ok I see. First off, the bible doesn't say that's what happened. Also, if it did, it would clash with outher parts of the bible. If God made a baby in mary and then Jesus came in and posessed it, the baby would be completely robbed of its free will. God simply doesn't do that.

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What do spirits die of? They cant be shot, run over etc. Unless spirits get dieseases?

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I don't know how. It certainly is possible for God to kill any spirit creature. I don't know if they can kill each other or not..

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Ok but were does it state that it was a "story" told by jesus?

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You can tell by the words he uses. "There was a certain rich man..." He's talking as if it's just a story. That's the same way you and I would start a story.

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Isnt the bible just a third persons view of events and tellings?

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Some of it is third person. Nobody was there to witness the creation of the earth. Other parts of it are written by the people involved, such as the Gospels.

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So infact really it could be just a book of short stories which in context of the history book are the greek myths?

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Many people think so. I don't. It seems so obvious to me that it's fact.

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Originally posted by simonm

Well, I only said 'I think your analogy is flawed' not that it is flawed.

If you are, indeed, a passive observer and are being deluded that you are making decisions when you are actually receiving them from an external entity, could this entity be your consiousness? Surely you, the passive observer, is the consiousness even if it isn't your consiousness making the decisions?

You, the being that is aware (if not the decision maker), are the consious being. To have consiousness is to be in a state of awareness. OK, you can't tell if anything comming into your awareness is real or not but does it matter?

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Of course, that's how I define consiousness, it is me, the observer of me. The decisionmaking me may or may not be extended either being a function of my brain, induced by my intelligence or as function of my consiciousness.

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If someone died and came back as a ghost (OK, I know you don't believe in ghosts and neither do I, but just suppose) then you wouldn't say they were resurrected would you?
Jesus' body was not brought back to life and it seems to me that a "shadow creature" is just another way of saying a ghost. It certainly implies something that is non-material or non-physical.

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Non-physical? Isn't that something you can call non-existent? What else are there other than physical phenomenons? Illusions right?

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Non-physical? Isn't that something you can call non-existent? What else are there other than physical phenomenons? Illusions right?

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I don't know what else there is. I don't actually believe in ghosts or "shadow creatures" but that wasn't the point of my argument.

Some people believe, however, that consiousness is non physical. When I say it is non-physical, I mean that it's causes are at least partially non-mechanistic.

Simonm & keda:

This may interest you! There are already groups dealing with what they call Mind Uploading where they upload the mind, conscienceness etc. onto a computer chip!

There are 4 procedures in consideration to upload the mind.
Microtome Procedure - slice brain into bits and scan it!
Nanoreplacement Procedure - inject tiny computers into brain and each will take place of a neuron.
Moravec Procedure - robot develops sensitive hand the figures out what each brain cell does.
Nondestructive Procedures - include gamma ray holography,Magnetic Resonance Imaging etc.

Now thats the science behind it. Here's some answers on the phylisophical issues.

After uploading the question i put forth was would it be me or not?
Is somewhat answered at this web site!
http://www.ibiblio.org/jstrout/uploa...lidentity.html

Other keywords u could search for Extropia and Mind Uploading.

tygur:

"Some of it is third person. Nobody was there to witness the creation of the earth. Other parts of it are written by the people involved, such as the Gospels. "

So it's a first person narrative as well!

"ok I see. First off, the bible doesn't say that's what happened. Also, if it did, it would clash with outher parts of the bible. If God made a baby in mary and then Jesus came in and posessed it, the baby would be completely robbed of its free will. God simply doesn't do that. "

No the bible seems to be very vage on how it all came to be!
But it wasnt a true baby because he wasnt impregnated like normal babies come to be.
There is no reference to mary doing the deed with God!

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No the bible seems to be very vage on how it all came to be!

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It says that Jesus was born. It doesn't say that some baby possessed by Jesus was born. Also, Jesus had no memory of his past life before being born as a human until he was baptized (at age 30, if I remember right). He still had to learn to walk and talk.

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But it wasnt a true baby because he wasnt impregnated like normal babies come to be.
There is no reference to mary doing the deed with God!

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You're right. There isn't. It wasn't necessary. Surely you've heard of test-tube babies (in vitro fertilization). They're true babies, right?

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If someone died and came back as a ghost (OK, I know you don't believe in ghosts and neither do I, but just suppose) then you wouldn't say they were resurrected would you?
Jesus' body was not brought back to life and it seems to me that a "shadow creature" is just another way of saying a ghost. It certainly implies something that is non-material or non-physical.

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Maybe I should say it outright. Jesus was an angel. Revelation refers to him as the archangel, meaning he was elevated higher than the others.

About someone coming back as a ghost, it depends. If they changed over to being a ghost immediately after dying, it isn't a resurrection because they never really died. They just changed form. But if someone died and stayed dead for a period of time, then came back as a ghost, then they got resurrected.

"It says that Jesus was born. It doesn't say that some baby possessed by Jesus was born. "

No but "if" jesus was an angel b4hand how else to you propose he turned into a baby!
He died and was re-incarnated as a baby. But you say that cant happen because there is no afterlife! No spirits or souls! so he couldnt of been re-incarnated as a human.
He would have to of morphed into one or possesd one!


"You're right. There isn't. It wasn't necessary. Surely you've heard of test-tube babies (in vitro fertilization). They're true babies, right?"

Yes i've heard of them but not in 20 b.c!
Also who was she impregnated by? There still needs to be another party besides Mary!

Beacon

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No but "if" jesus was an angel b4hand how else to you propose he turned into a baby!
He died and was re-incarnated as a baby. But you say that cant happen because there is no afterlife! No spirits or souls! so he couldnt of been re-incarnated as a human.
He would have to of morphed into one or possesd one!

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First off, you're the only one who said he died before being born as a human. I don't know the specifics and the bible doesn't go into it. He was born as a baby human child. He could've been "morphed" into an embryo/zygote/whatever. He could've died and been brought back in preborn human form. He could've even been "reincarnated". I said people don't get reincarnated and that they are simply gone when they die, but I didn't say God couldn't make a creature reincarnate.

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Yes i've heard of them but not in 20 b.c!
Also who was she impregnated by? There still needs to be another party besides Mary!

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People couldn't do it back then, but why do you insist that God couldn't do it? There couldn't have been another party (a human one, anyway) because Jesus had to be born as a perfect human. Any human would've passed down imperfection. God made an embryo/zygote/whatever and put it into Mary. (I suppose he could've also made a little sperm cell and had it do its job. The bible isn't very specific on how it happened.) Why is that so hard to understand?

Why i find it difficult to understand is because you put it down to this "but why do you insist that God couldn't do it? ".

I dont insist he couldnt do it!
Why do you insist that he did it your way and not my way?
You say the bible doesnt really say what went on so it's just persumptions based on the limited resources we have.

Why is your "idea" so more right than mine. If god can do all this stuff why wouldnt he do it my way. Create a human body to transport the spirit and soul of Jesus!

"I said people don't get reincarnated and that they are simply gone when they die, but I didn't say God couldn't make a creature reincarnate. "

Arent you contradicting yourself a bit. You say when people die thats it there dead but then god can re-incarnate them. But if there dead how? Coz god can do everything right?
He has nothing to re-incarnate them with after 3 days, or whenever god may choose, of a person bieng dead they are pretty well decayed.

How'd this sperm get into Mary?

Beacon

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Why do you insist that he did it your way and not my way?
You say the bible doesnt really say what went on so it's just persumptions based on the limited resources we have.

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The bible says that Jesus died. If it was done your way, Jesus would've never died.

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Arent you contradicting yourself a bit. You say when people die thats it there dead but then god can re-incarnate them. But if there dead how? Coz god can do everything right?
He has nothing to re-incarnate them with after 3 days, or whenever god may choose, of a person bieng dead they are pretty well decayed.

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Remember that computer illustration? God could simply remember what someone was and rebuild him/her that way. Or it could be more complicated. Why wouldn't God be able to do "everything"?

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How'd this sperm get into Mary?

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umm..God can do everything :D

I didn't say it was the sperm thing. I said it could've been a sperm. I actually think God put in a fertilized egg or maybe something further along the process such as an embryo. God simply did it. I don't know how. I can see no reason why God wouldn't be able to do it, tho.


Everyone
I'm going to be gone until sunday night (I'm in New York time). I might post a couple more messages this morning, but I'm going to be gone by 6 (It's 3:37 right now).

I don't know why I'm bothering to continue arguing. All you chistians believe different things and are contradicting each other all the time.

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Maybe I should say it outright. Jesus was an angel. Revelation refers to him as the archangel, meaning he was elevated higher than the others.

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I had been told by other christians that Jesus was one with the father and the holy spirit. Basically saying that he IS God.

As for the resurrection, you know as well as I do that when people are told about the resurrection they are led to believe in images of a human diying then being raised back from the dead as himself and not as an angel, a shadow creature or even in a different body.

You are stretching the definition of "resurrection" to the limits and I must admit am highly sceptical.

I agree simonm exactly!:)

Tygur: Perhaps Jesus body died his spirit continues to live in heaven as the ruler of heaven and earth!
Why cannot we continue to live in heaven when our bodies die?

Never said God cant do everything but i said why would he do it your way????

tygur:"Remember that computer illustration? God could simply remember what someone was and rebuild him/her that way. Or it could be more complicated. Why wouldn't God be able to do "everything"? "

Purely speculative!!!