Smoke it or not ?

Quote:

---

how are ya gonna get through life without crossing a road? fly? but then again, if you take drugs, you probably think you do fly over them.

---

OK, you've already made it clear you have no idea what it's like to take drugs :rolleyes:

Quote:

---

well, no one is ever in complete control of anything. apparently, more people here have accidents involving socks than with chainsaws! my point is that taking drugs is a stupid risk. you know that they'll cause you health problems if you use them long enough, whereas doing everyday things such as crossing the road or putting on socks don't have a guaranteed danger. if something bad happens when doing one of these, then it's an accident. if you end up in hospital through drug use, then it's because you put yourself there deliberately. it's arrogant to assume you won't end up in hospital if you take a lot of drugs.

---

You are trying to make it sound like taking drugs is just one unnecessary risk that doesn't have to be taken on top of all the necessary risks of every day life! Yeah right!

Ok, I know you hardly ever drink alcohol or take prescribed drugs but can you say you never eat anything that's bad for you? Never had a cream cake or a greasy portion of chips? Those things'll slowly kill you given half a chance. Why do we eat them? Because we enjoy them. Simple as that. Are they a "stupid risk"? It's only stupid if the benefit you get from eating unhealthy food is not balanced by the pleasure you get from eating them.

There are many things we could cut out of our life to reduce the risk and ensure a longer life span but we don't do them (unless you're a monk/nun).

Despite what you might think, People who take drugs aren't completely stupid. They have a bl**dy good time on them. And this is enough to offset the potential "risk" of long term problems.

Quote:

---

Originally posted by simonm


OK, you've already made it clear you have no idea what it's like to take drugs :rolleyes:

---

yeah, that's true (i wouldn't want to either), but i was just kidding when i said that :)

Quote:

---

You are trying to make it sound like taking drugs is just one unnecessary risk that doesn't have to be taken on top of all the necessary risks of every day life! Yeah right!

Ok, I know you hardly ever drink alcohol or take prescribed drugs but can you say you never eat anything that's bad for you? Never had a cream cake or a greasy portion of chips? Those things'll slowly kill you given half a chance. Why do we eat them? Because we enjoy them. Simple as that. Are they a "stupid risk"? It's only stupid if the benefit you get from eating unhealthy food is not balanced by the pleasure you get from eating them.

There are many things we could cut out of our life to reduce the risk and ensure a longer life span but we don't do them (unless you're a monk/nun).

Despite what you might think, People who take drugs aren't completely stupid. They have a bl**dy good time on them. And this is enough to offset the potential "risk" of long term problems.

---

your point about eating unhealthy food is another fair one, but it'll only really endanger your life if you eat **** loads of it without excercising, which is being silly. as long as you balance what you eat and take excercise, then you can counter the effects of eating unhealthy stuff. drugs, however, permanently damage your body.

i don't think i actually said that people who take them are stupid, i said it's a stupid risk. most of the people i've known who've used drugs are intelligent people.

look, i'm not saying people must not take drugs because i say so. i'm not that much of a dick. if you wanna take drugs, then go for it, i just think they do more harm than good, and in any case, that ain't a good thing as far as i'm concerned.

define good and bad :)

Quote:

---

your point about eating unhealthy food is another fair one, but it'll only really endanger your life if you eat **** loads of it without excercising, which is being silly. as long as you balance what you eat and take excercise, then you can counter the effects of eating unhealthy stuff. drugs, however, permanently damage your body.

---

There is no evidence to suggest that canabis has permanent negative effects on the body. Yes, taking too much of anything is bad so everything must be in moderation. That goes for everything in life.

In the end, each must choose their own path. ;)

You dont have to cross a road you could sit in your living room watching tv eating fattening chips and food without ever going near a road.

But you have taken a cold & flu tablet b4 right? Why i ask is because they contain drugs like sudaeffdene(spell check) which is a banned substance in sport and extremly close realtionship with speed. Yet ppl would take that for a non-drowsy effect when they have a cold without thinking about the long term effects or whatever.

You can go take the risk of sitting on that rollercoaster hoping it doesnt fly off of the rails or you have a heart attack and soemone else will go have a disco biscuit roller coaster in the hope they dont die as well.

All right nullus, we're gonna finish them in no time 'cause they have only 2 good reasons:

* "I like it"
* "You have nothing to do with it"

While we have a bunch of them but I'm not gonna point them all:

* "It's gonna kill you" (please note that half of my reasons are inside of this one :p )
* "There are lots of other ways to feel good"
* "You can't compare the risk you take when taking drugs to the risk you take when crossing a road"
* "It has been prooved that some drugs can make you impotent (I hope that's how you say it in english but you get the idea ;) )"

Huh it's late and I don't feel like typing anything else :)

Btw I hope we don't get a "non-cool member" status because of this! :p

Btw2 you can all go to Holland/Dutchland (sorry but my dictionary is a bit unclear about this :) ) because there consuming most kinds of drugs is not a crime! :p (no offense to anyone that lives there, I'm neutral as to this matter I think ;) )

Quote:

---

Btw2 you can all go to Holland/Dutchland (sorry but my dictionary is a bit unclear about this ) because there consuming most kinds of drugs is not a crime! (no offense to anyone that lives there, I'm neutral as to this matter I think )

---

im already packing my bags...

Jotaf why cannot i compare crossing a road to taking drugs?

Both are unpredictable and out of your control. Yes if your safe crossing a road it would help but if your safe taking drugs it'll decrease the risk as well!
You dont completly lose control of your mind! Thats just a picture painted by a society which is ignorant!
And if you look i wasnt comparing the 2 anyway!

"It's gonna kill you." Pffft IT MAY KILL YOU! would be a better statement. Life will kill you.

"Lots of otherways to feel good" True. But some ppl ride rollercoasters and some take drugs as thier rollercoaster.

"Proved that some drugs can make you impotent". So can stress and a swift kick in the nuts, powerlines etc.

Why do you eat fatty foods? Coz it tastes good correct?
Why do you go on a rollercoaster? Coz it feels good correct?

And plus why dont you whinge about taking cold&flu tablets or when your pain you take pain killers! Exactly the same substances but with noice little adverts and long complicated names in the ingrdients section.

kedaman, i'm not even gonna try getting into a philosophical debate with you! :p

simonm, that's true, although i think i heard that cannabis has a higher chance of causing throat cancer than tobacco. might be wrong though. but highly addictive drugs like heroine can totally mess you up permanently.

i completely agree that people should be able to do what they want, as long as it doesn't harm anyone else in any way. but you must admit, drugs can ruin people's lives, break families up, and cause a lot of crime.

Beacon, yeah, i've taken cold/flu tablets in the past, but i didn't do it to get high, i did it cos i wanted to get rid of a sh*tty cold. i also wasn't endangering my health when i took them, cos i would've only taken a few whenever i got a cold (which is rare). for the same reason i think it's fine that people use cannabis for medicinal reasons.

you keep comparing drug taking to doing things like danger sports or riding rollercoasters that give you a rush of adrenaline, when the two really aren't the same at all. most pleasurable things you do in life have some degree of risk (life would get pretty boring if you never took risks), but taking drugs isn't about taking a risk. like i said before, it's about shoving a load of crap in to your body to get an unnatural chemical reaction that does you no good. things like rollercoasters create a natural chemical reaction that's actually healthy for you. maybe an accident could happen doing something like that, but accidents can happen doing almost anything.

funny how you all seem to find it harder to accept that me and Jotaf don't like drugs, than we find it to accept that you like drugs. ;)

Quote:

---

i completely agree that people should be able to do what they want, as long as it doesn't harm anyone else in any way. but you must admit, drugs can ruin people's lives, break families up, and cause a lot of crime.

---

This is another myth that is perpetuated in order to support the government's hard line on drugs. Most "drug related" crime is actually people trying to steal to fund their addiction. Naturally, this occurs with drugs like Heroine and Crack that cause physical suffering when he next fix is not forthcomming.

Now, although I agree with you (Nullus) regarding drugs like Heroine and Crack, I actually think they should be legalised for prescription only. Registered addicts may then go to their doctor to receive free prescriptions of the drug. This way, their health can be continually monitored, the quality of the drugs can be maintained (avoiding impurities), the strength can be controlled (to prevent overdoses) and rehabilitation schemes can be on offer for the moment an addict wants to give up. This should reduce both drug related crime and deaths.

Quote:

---

funny how you all seem to find it harder to accept that me and Jotaf don't like drugs, than we find it to accept that you like drugs.

---

We don't have a problem with you not liking drugs (at least I don't anyway :) ) but what I have a problem with is this:

1) You believe that taking "soft" drugs is somehow morally inferior and somehow less ethical than pursuing some other dangerous activity for fun.

2) You beleive that all illegal drugs (including Canabis) are innevitably doing long term damage to your mind/body and cannot be used safely by any method.

If we believe everthing we were told we would all probably look like Micheal Jackson and live in huge clear cylinders with filtered air and nutritional mush to eat.

I heard recently from nutritional Scientists that too much fibre in your diet can give you colon cancer.

Where will it end?

A lot of the people on this thread seem to be quite young so havn't broken into the social binges yet.

I was exactly the same when I was around 17, 18, 19. I said I would never drink smoke etc.

Now I have tried almost everything except hard drugs which I would never contemplate taking as it can lead to addiction.

About 97% of my friends all drink smoke and take drugs of one form or another and a lot of these are professional people.

it is only recreational though!

Quote:

---

Originally posted by simonm

This is another myth that is perpetuated in order to support the government's hard line on drugs. Most "drug related" crime is actually people trying to steal to fund their addiction. Naturally, this occurs with drugs like Heroine and Crack that cause physical suffering when he next fix is not forthcomming.

---

well, yeah, that's basically what i meant about it causing crime. i didn't mean "soft" drugs cause crime.

Quote:

---

Now, although I agree with you (Nullus) regarding drugs like Heroine and Crack, I actually think they should be legalised for prescription only. Registered addicts may then go to their doctor to receive free prescriptions of the drug. This way, their health can be continually monitored, the quality of the drugs can be maintained (avoiding impurities), the strength can be controlled (to prevent overdoses) and rehabilitation schemes can be on offer for the moment an addict wants to give up. This should reduce both drug related crime and deaths.

---

don't you think it's better to try and get them off the drug by rehabilitating them rather than continuing to feed their addiction and harm them? i'm not too sure where i stand on legalising those kind of drugs that become extremely addictive.

Quote:

---

We don't have a problem with you not liking drugs (at least I don't anyway :) ) but what I have a problem with is this:

1) You believe that taking "soft" drugs is somehow morally inferior and somehow less ethical than pursuing some other dangerous activity for fun.

2) You beleive that all illegal drugs (including Canabis) are innevitably doing long term damage to your mind/body and cannot be used safely by any method.

---

i don't think there's anything morally wrong with taking drugs, i just don't see the point in deliberately causing long term damage to your body for a brief amount of pleasure.

well your 2nd point is true isn't it? are you saying that taking cannabis or whatever else is perfectly healthy and isn't doing any harm to your body? the fact that smoking cannabis can cause cancer shows that it does do long term damage.

Gary.Lowe, everything is unhealthy is you eat or drink too much of it.

well, i just turned 22, am i still quite young? the only drug i'll ever use is alcohol (and not much of it). maybe you can call me a health freak (afterall, im a vegetarian, i excercise a fair amount, and i try not to eat much unhealthy stuff), but what's wrong with wanting to look after my body?

Nullas

I am not saying you shouldn't look after your body.
What I am saying is how do we know Healthy food is Healthy, because some scientists says it is?

Then 10 years down the line they come up with 'Ahh well eating this will actually do this and that to you.

Quote:

---

don't you think it's better to try and get them off the drug by rehabilitating them rather than continuing to feed their addiction and harm them? i'm not too sure where i stand on legalising those kind of drugs that become extremely addictive.

---

The problem is that you can't force someone to be rehabilitated. If someone is not willing to give up then you can't stop them. All you can do is arrest them and put them in jail. That hardly helps the situation, does it?

Quote:

---

i don't think there's anything morally wrong with taking drugs, i just don't see the point in deliberately causing long term damage to your body for a brief amount of pleasure.

---

You critised the risk taking of using drugs but not the risk taking of dangerous sports because one is "natural" and one isn't. This is an ethical stance that is based on your morals.

Quote:

---

well your 2nd point is true isn't it? are you saying that taking cannabis or whatever else is perfectly healthy and isn't doing any harm to your body? the fact that smoking cannabis can cause cancer shows that it does do long term damage.

---

Smoking cannabis can cause cancer. Inhaling any form of smoke whatsoever can cause cancer. Even eating burnt toast can cause cancer.

The point is that cannabis is not harmful in itself. You don't have to smoke canabis (it's just one of the quickest ways to take effect) to take it. You can eat it in a variety of different ways. I have never seen evidence that eating it can cause any harm whatsoever.

Your body treats alcohol like a poison. Everytime you feel giddy with the first effects of alcohol, that is your liver struggling to clean your system of the alcohol. Still, this doesn't stop many people drinking alcohol does it?

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Gary.Lowe
Nullas

I am not saying you shouldn't look after your body.
What I am saying is how do we know Healthy food is Healthy, because some scientists says it is?

Then 10 years down the line they come up with 'Ahh well eating this will actually do this and that to you.

---

well we kinda know it's healthy by the fact that people who eat healthily are healthy :p i know what ya mean though, by all these scientists coming out saying loads of stuff can do this and that to you. i tend to ignore it, because what else am i going to eat? i just eat what my body requires (plus some unhealthy crap ;))

Quote:

---

Originally posted by simonm
The problem is that you can't force someone to be rehabilitated. If someone is not willing to give up then you can't stop them. All you can do is arrest them and put them in jail. That hardly helps the situation, does it?

---

yeah, that's true, i don't believe any drug user should be put in prison. they should, however, be sent to some rehabilitation centre where they can get the proper help they need. if they don't want to be rehabilitated, then tough sh*t. it's for their own good, as well as society's. i'm just talking about people who have a serious addiction to the "hard" stuff though. i don't believe people who use "soft" drugs should get any kind of punishment or rehabilitation or anything.

Quote:

---

You critised the risk taking of using drugs but not the risk taking of dangerous sports because one is "natural" and one isn't. This is an ethical stance that is based on your morals

---

i don't agree. i criticised the risks of taking drugs because i believe it's a stupid thing to risk your life over, i don't think it's "wrong" in any way. dangerous sports are risky, but productive. they keep you fit and healthy. it's just an opinion, not an ethical stance.

well, yeah, if eating cannabis makes you feel good and it doesn't harm you in any way, or messes about with your body chemistry (which i assume it does anyway), then i wouldn't mind trying it, although i doubt i'd ever bother.

Quote:

---

yeah, that's true, i don't believe any drug user should be put in prison. they should, however, be sent to some rehabilitation centre where they can get the proper help they need. if they don't want to be rehabilitated, then tough sh*t. it's for their own good, as well as society's.

---

So what're you going to do if they refuse? Turn them back on the street so they can continue stealing to pay for their habit? Where they can continue to endanger their own lives (even more than would otherwise be) by taking drugs of unknown purity and concentration?

I just think it's better if they come back to the doctors every week where they can be monitored and given advice to. Turn them away and they're completely beyond your control altogether.

Quote:

---

i criticised the risks of taking drugs because i believe it's a stupid thing to risk your life over

---

How can you say that it's not worth risking your life over if you have no idea what it's like?

Quote:

---

dangerous sports are risky, but productive. they keep you fit and healthy. it's just an opinion, not an ethical stance.

---

OK, so you're saying that people do dangerous sports for the health and fitness benefits? I don't think so. They're about the thrill and excitement of pushing you're body to it's limits (just as taking things like LSD pushes your mind to it's limit).

Quote:

---

Originally posted by simonm


So what're you going to do if they refuse? Turn them back on the street so they can continue stealing to pay for their habit? Where they can continue to endanger their own lives (even more than would otherwise be) by taking drugs of unknown purity and concentration?

I just think it's better if they come back to the doctors every week where they can be monitored and given advice to. Turn them away and they're completely beyond your control altogether.

---

no, they shouldn't be allowed to refuse. they should be dragged kicking and screaming if necessary. i know that sounds harsh and cruel, but in the long run it's likely to get them off their addiction. it's called tough love.

i don't think you're helping them if you just continue to feed their habit.

Quote:

---

How can you say that it's not worth risking your life over if you have no idea what it's like?

---

what do i need to know? you smoke a joint/pop a pill and you feel good for a short period of time, right? i don't see the point in damaging yourself for that.

Quote:

---

OK, so you're saying that people do dangerous sports for the health and fitness benefits? I don't think so. They're about the thrill and excitement of pushing you're body to it's limits (just as taking things like LSD pushes your mind to it's limit).

---

yeah, of course they do it to keep fit and healthy, as well getting a buzz out of it.

Quote:

---

no, they shouldn't be allowed to refuse. they should be dragged kicking and screaming if necessary. i know that sounds harsh and cruel, but in the long run it's likely to get them off their addiction. it's called tough love.

---

I'm afraid, this type of rehabilitation doesn't work. Even if you just threaten them with jail or taking away benefits, it won't work. Unless the addict really wants to give up, they'll just go straight back on it as soon as they're back out again.

Quote:

---

what do i need to know? you smoke a joint/pop a pill and you feel good for a short period of time, right? i don't see the point in damaging yourself for that.

---

Well, for one thing, you cannot be told what it is like; you can only experience it. But each drug is different and they're not all merely about feeling good for a short time. Their effects vary considerably.

Anyway, I'm not even going to attempt to convince you how some of them can be, you've made it clear that you're not interested so I'll leave it at that.

For some, reality bores them and they want to distort and play with it. Other people don't like it, they like certainty that comes with a fixed reality that they can trust, and that's fine too.

Quote:

---

yeah, of course they do it to keep fit and healthy, as well getting a buzz out of it.

---

OK, so sports like base jumping or bunge jumping don't keep you fit and healthy so are they in the same bag as drug taking?

Ok, let's finish this thread! :p

Conclusion:

If you don't mind risking your life for pleasure, you can take soft drugs :)

All right, does everyone agree with this?

Quote:

---

Originally posted by simonm

I'm afraid, this type of rehabilitation doesn't work. Even if you just threaten them with jail or taking away benefits, it won't work. Unless the addict really wants to give up, they'll just go straight back on it as soon as they're back out again.

---

i've heard that it works in a lot of cases. depriving the body of what it thinks it needs will let it learn that it doesn't actually need it, and so the addiction gradually fades.

Quote:

---

Well, for one thing, you cannot be told what it is like; you can only experience it. But each drug is different and they're not all merely about feeling good for a short time. Their effects vary considerably.

Anyway, I'm not even going to attempt to convince you how some of them can be, you've made it clear that you're not interested so I'll leave it at that.

For some, reality bores them and they want to distort and play with it. Other people don't like it, they like certainty that comes with a fixed reality that they can trust, and that's fine too.

---

fair enough :)

Quote:

---

OK, so sports like base jumping or bunge jumping don't keep you fit and healthy so are they in the same bag as drug taking?

---

well, those ones may not keep you fit, but they keep you healthy. a good dose of adrenaline does you some good. apparently, it can lengthen your life span. plus, most danger sports aren't really that dangerous, they're controlled and made as safe as possible.

Jotaf, i agree, we all seem to be repeating ourselves over and over, i dunno what more can be added. ;) but i'm happy to continue this if anyone else is.

That's what I was trying to say ;)

Sorry, but I wanted to be the last one posting to this thread :p

ok :rolleyes: :p

Nullus:"funny how you all seem to find it harder to accept that me and Jotaf don't like drugs, than we find it to accept that you like drugs. "

What!!! Hey i dont find it hard to accept that you dont like em! Geez mate I dont care whether you take them or not I dont but i have!
I drink alchol still though.

Cold & Flu Tablets: My point to that is not that you were trying to get high but that you took drugs that are the same/similar to what society term drug users take!
But you didnt think twice about it did you?
It probably gave you a minor effect to what drug users take coz they take it in larger doses. But say you took non-drowsy ones for example and what kept you non-drowsy is effectively Speed!

Get my drift.

While I have no desire to use drugs, and could do without alcohol, as far as I am concerned, a person should be allowed to do whatever he wants as long as it does not hurt anybody else.

If he wants to drink cynanide, he should be allowed to do it as long as there is reason to believe that he has some knowledge of the consequences. I am concerned about young people making decisions without any real knowledge of the consequences, but let their parents try to police them.

If we did not have laws against drugs, they would be cheaper and there would be less crime commited by people trying to pay for the illegal drugs.

The only drug laws I would like to see enforced are laws keeping drugs from people in jail. This would dramatically cut down on theft and other criminal activity by drug addicts. Most addicts would avoid criminal activity if they knew that being jailed would cut them off from any chance of a fix.

Without our current drug laws there would be more money and manpower available to enforce laws against other types of criminal activity.

I worry more about the potential for abuse of police power than the problems created by drug addicts. The forfeiture laws in particular scare the hell out of me.

Guv

There is a lot of "pressure" comming from America on Europe to maintain a tough line on drugs and I think that's holding up drug law reform over here.

Genereally though, no politician wants to come out in favour if decriminalisation/legalisation as they will immediately be portrayed in the press as condoning/promoting drug use.

In fact, some argue that the very act of legalising drug use would send out a signal that the governement approves of it. I don't think this is the case, especially if simultaneously the government launches an drug education campaign to point out the pros/cons of using drugs.

What annoys me also is when people say that use of "soft" drugs leads innevitably to the use of "hard" drugs. Codswallop! :mad:

God I could do with a big reefer now....

Quote:

---

Originally posted by simonm
What annoys me also is when people say that use of "soft" drugs leads innevitably to the use of "hard" drugs. Codswallop! :mad:

---

:rolleyes: Well, I have been offered Speed and Acid, had no problem turning them down. But it's very easy to accept.

Skin up Gaffer :D

Cool. Nothing wrong with a paper based system at all Bonks me old m8.

Got any veras?

Quote:

---

Well, I have been offered Speed and Acid, had no problem turning them down. But it's very easy to accept.

---

If they were legalised, you wouldn't be in contact with illigimate (and un-scrupuous) dealers who would try to get you to try harder drugs.

In my lengthy experience (and I've had everything bar injecting), it's not the dealer who get you to experiment, it your mates...

...and what about decriminalisation/legalisation of drugs. Do you guys agree ?

Definately decriminalisation of Cannibis. I'm not sure about the legalities of having lots of coked up people walking the streets though...

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Gaffer
Definately decriminalisation of Cannibis. I'm not sure about the legalities of having lots of coked up people walking the streets though...

---

i think that decriminalisation will not solve the problem...we have the example of Holland...the only positive thing is that this way the crime relative to drugs will drop, i think...

I think that all drugs should be legalised (Not decriminalised). Decriminalisation doesn't really solve the problems as it still leaves distribution and control in the hands of illegal dealers.

Soft drugs should be legalised and available in off licenses (or some sort of equivilant) with useful information distributed with them (like you get with pain killers).

Hard drugs should be legalised for prescription only. To get the prescription, the user needs to go on an "addicts register" so that their numbers can be monitored.

Quote:

---

Originally posted by zuperman


i think that decriminalisation will not solve the problem...we have the example of Holland...the only positive thing is that this way the crime relative to drugs will drop, i think...

---

And there is a problem in Holland? :confused:

Quote:

---

Originally posted by simonm
I think that all drugs should be legalised (Not decriminalised). Decriminalisation doesn't really solve the problems as it still leaves distribution and control in the hands of illegal dealers.

Soft drugs should be legalised and available in off licenses (or some sort of equivilant) with useful information distributed with them (like you get with pain killers).

Hard drugs should be legalised for prescription only. To get the prescription, the user needs to go on an "addicts register" so that their numbers can be monitored.

---

The probhle is that these things must be taken a step at a time in ordder for the full blown effect to take place. No parliament would accept a white paper stating all soft drugs are to be legalised. got to go decrim first IMO

Quote:

---

And there is a problem in Holland?

---

I heard a statistic that said that Holland has the lowest drug fatality rate in Europe. That's got to say something, hasn't it?

The problem is though that in Holland, there is only decriminalisation in effect (which is better than nothing) and doesn't go far enough.

Exactly. which is why I don't understand his "example is Holland" statement...

Quote:

---

No parliament would accept a white paper stating all soft drugs are to be legalised. got to go decrim first IMO

---

I didn't say that any parliment would be likely to accept full blown legalisation but that is what I think should happen. Be it gradual or immediate.

BTW, what does "IMO" mean?