Is 002 a number?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lord Orwell

if you fill in a document, and i don't mean on a computer, that requires you to put in data, such as a date, anything with a value less than ten is expected to have a leading zero.
example: fill out my taxes, it asks for my birth month. i enter 07.
07/28/1973.
anyone who's taken accounting will also see leading zeros an awful lot. It's also used when writing a check with less than ten cents in the change spot. 07/100 for example. As this wikipedia link shows, it's also used in most digital displays of numbers, such as stopwatches or clocks.

As for programming tricks,

Code:

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a = 002
msgbox a

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it obviously is a number because it's got a value greater than zero. If you want it treated like a string, you will have to enclose it in quotes.

As for binary 00000010, the fact is that the fact it's 8 bits long shouldn't matter. Base 2 doesn't require leading zeros any more than base 10 does, or base 16. &Hff = &h0000ff, (green).

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Just because your compiler is able to read it as a number doesn't make it a number. It strips the REDUNDANT zeros and then uses the NUMBER that's left. And the argument about the date. Seriously, stop using your computer as a ruler to measure all the laws of the universe. What is displayed on your screen does not represent the laws of the world or mathematics, nor does it prove anything other than that the boundaries of your intelligence seem limited to the abilities of your operating system.

But we're talking about the operating system, not the laws of the universe. It doesn't matter what the definition of a number is outside of the .NET value types that hold numeric value.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tom Sawyer

But we're talking about the operating system, not the laws of the universe. It doesn't matter what the definition of a number is outside of the .NET value types that hold numeric value.

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I found a witch! May we burn her?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Disiance

I found a witch! May we burn her?

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How do you know she's a witch? Did she turn you into a newt or something?

He got better...

002 is a number. Here are the reasons.
1) In memory, the 0's are stored. Memory is not dynamically allocated for storing numbers. Each type of number takes up a certain amount of predefined space in memory.
2) The CLR will read 002 as a number. It will read "002" as a string. 002 is not "002".

If you dispute the above FACTS, you are retarded.

I just thought of a quick way to test this. I don't know how to get the IL code that gets created when you compile an app, so if someone who does know could run this, it would clear things up.

Mendhak created the following file in notepad and compiled it:

Code:

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Module Main
    Sub Main()
        Dim i as Int32 = 002
        Console.WriteLine(i.GetType().Name)       
    End Sub
End Module

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He needed to do it in notepad to eliminate the VB stripping off the leading zeros. It generated the following ILDASM output:

Code:

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.method public static void  Main() cil managed
{
  .entrypoint
  .custom instance void [mscorlib]System.STAThreadAttribute::.ctor() = ( 01 00 00 00 )
  // Code size      24 (0x18)
  .maxstack  1
  .locals init (int32 V_0)
  IL_0000:  ldc.i4.2
  IL_0001:  stloc.0
  IL_0002:  ldloc.0
  IL_0003:  box        [mscorlib]System.Int32
  IL_0008:  callvirt  instance class [mscorlib]System.Type [mscorlib]System.Object::GetType()
  IL_000d:  callvirt  instance string [mscorlib]System.Reflection.MemberInfo::get_Name()
  IL_0012:  call      void [mscorlib]System.Console::WriteLine(string)
  IL_0017:  ret
} // end of method Main::Main

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The bolded line IL_0003: box [mscorlib]System.Int32 is the important one here.

Could someone who knows how to generate the ILDASM output run the same code, but with Dim i as Int32 = 2 instead of Dim i as Int32 = 002?

If the line where it boxes the value still shows up, then it means that the .NET Framework sees 2 and 002 as the same thing and 002 would be considered a number inside the Framework. If the IL doesn't generate that line, then it means that the Framework does not see 002 as a number and requires this extra step of boxing it in order to convert it into something that it recognizes as a number, which would mean that 002 is not a number within the Framework.

Could someone who knows how to generate the ILDASM output try that out?

Although I am definitely interested in the results of that, might I ask what your obsession with .NET is?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Disiance

Although I am definitely interested in the results of that, might I ask what your obsession with .NET is?

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You mean besides the fact that it's a .NET forum and a thread in which we're discussing how .NET handles a number?

I'm sorry but this is the dumbest thing to argue over. 002 is obviously a number. If you disagree with that then you need to go back to elementary school.

Since we're talking about within VB and not necessarily the real world: It isn't a string in VB unless you enclose it in quote which would, obviously, make it a string. Without quotes, it's not a string.

Seriously, don't you people have anything better to do? Anyone who thinks 002 is a string need to go back to programming 101. It's an integer. 0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000002 is an integer. Just because VB automatically drops the zeros because it thinks you can't do math doesn't mean 002 is magically a string. In math, you're allowed to include an infinite number of zeros in front of a number because it does not change its value.

002 == 2
0000000000000000002 == 2

The IL does not matter. I would imagine the compiler is smart enough to stirp the zeros anyway as there is no point in wasting space since no meaning is lost.

Tom: Changing that to 2 instead of 002 gives

Code:

---

.method public static void  Main() cil managed
{
  .entrypoint
  .custom instance void [mscorlib]System.STAThreadAttribute::.ctor() = ( 01 00 00 00 )
  // Code size      24 (0x18)
  .maxstack  1
  .locals init (int32 V_0)
  IL_0000:  ldc.i4.2
  IL_0001:  stloc.0
  IL_0002:  ldloc.0
  IL_0003:  box        [mscorlib]System.Int32
  IL_0008:  callvirt  instance class [mscorlib]System.Type [mscorlib]System.Object::GetType()
  IL_000d:  callvirt  instance string [mscorlib]System.Reflection.MemberInfo::get_Name()
  IL_0012:  call      void [mscorlib]System.Console::WriteLine(string)
  IL_0017:  ret
} // end of method Main::Main

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You can do this yourself too. Create a .vb file with these contents:

Code:

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Module Main
    Sub Main()
        Dim i as Int32 = 2
        Console.WriteLine(i.GetType().Name)       
    End Sub
End Module

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Open the Visual Studio command prompt, navigate to the folder where you created the .vb file. Type in

Code:

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vbc test.vb

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It'll make the .exe for you. Then type in

Code:

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ildasm test.exe

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then navigate to the Main() method.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by kasracer

I'm sorry but this is the dumbest thing to argue over. 002 is obviously a number. If you disagree with that then you need to go back to elementary school.

Since we're talking about within VB and not necessarily the real world: It isn't a string in VB unless you enclose it in quote which would, obviously, make it a string. Without quotes, it's not a string.

Seriously, don't you people have anything better to do? Anyone who thinks 002 is a string need to go back to programming 101. It's an integer. 0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000002 is an integer. Just because VB automatically drops the zeros because it thinks you can't do math doesn't mean 002 is magically a string. In math, you're allowed to include an infinite number of zeros in front of a number because it does not change its value.

002 == 2
0000000000000000002 == 2

The IL does not matter. I would imagine the compiler is smart enough to stirp the zeros anyway as there is no point in wasting space since no meaning is lost.

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And this proves that you completely missed the point.

002 assigned to an int will resolve to 2. This isn't about whether 2 is a number, it's about whether 002 is a number. 002 assigned to a string will resolve to 002, and since there's no change, that's what it is. As an int, 0002 == 2, but as a string, 0002 != 2.

Should the government decide if 002 is a number or not? Discuss. :afrog:

The government should keep their hairy kidneys out of our data type discussions.

It's a representation of a number, just as mathematically valid as '2', 'two', '2.00', '1.99(9)', and so forth.

Next question: is 2147483648 an integer? (your answer will determine what you think 'integer' means)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mendhak

Tom: Changing that to 2 instead of 002 gives

Code:

---

.method public static void  Main() cil managed
{
  .entrypoint
  .custom instance void [mscorlib]System.STAThreadAttribute::.ctor() = ( 01 00 00 00 )
  // Code size      24 (0x18)
  .maxstack  1
  .locals init (int32 V_0)
  IL_0000:  ldc.i4.2
  IL_0001:  stloc.0
  IL_0002:  ldloc.0
  IL_0003:  box        [mscorlib]System.Int32
  IL_0008:  callvirt  instance class [mscorlib]System.Type [mscorlib]System.Object::GetType()
  IL_000d:  callvirt  instance string [mscorlib]System.Reflection.MemberInfo::get_Name()
  IL_0012:  call      void [mscorlib]System.Console::WriteLine(string)
  IL_0017:  ret
} // end of method Main::Main

---

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Well, that wraps it up then. The IL is exactly identical for 2 and 002. That means that both are equal and 002 is a number within .NET, despite what the VB IDE would have us think.

I guess this means that I was wrong and I will now go off into a corner and cry. :cry:

Thanks for showing me how to get the IL, too! :thumb:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by alkatran

Next question: is 2147483648 an integer? (your answer will determine what you think 'integer' means)

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No, however 2147483648 * -1 is an Integer.

Everything gets stored in the stack, even the strings, so we can't be talking that low level. We have to realize that whether or not 002 is a number in all context. In VB if I type 002 it makes it decimal 2. If I'm a James Bond fan 002 is simply a person. It's all a matter of perception. In this case it has to do with the language about which we are speaking.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tom Sawyer

I just thought of a quick way to test this.

Code:

---

Module Main
    Sub Main()
        Dim i as Int32 = 002
        Console.WriteLine(i.GetType().Name)       
    End Sub
End Module

---

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Wouldn't it be a better test, to not specify i as an integer and let the compiler figure it out? Like this:

Code:

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Module Main
    Sub Main()
        Dim i as New Object
        i = 002
        Console.WriteLine(i.GetType().Name)       
    End Sub
End Module

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002 is basically the same as 007.
007 is a character in a book by Ian Flemming.
Everyone knows that you can convert a character to a string.
Therefore 002 is a string.

Actually I lied. The original post was

Quote:

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002 isn't an integer or any kind of number

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Note, this says nothing about compilers or operating systems or even computers. It just says any kind of number. It doesn't say that it's a string (which it could be) or anything like that. Just that it is not any kind of number.

Well, it is a kind of number. It's a number with leading zeros. If you want to restrict it to computers then that would be like saying 99999999999999999 isnt an integer because it doesn't fit into an int32, whereas any mathematician would argue that it is an integer.

In the same way that A is a kind of number (in hexadecimal). It's still also a string, but it is also definetly a kind of number.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SurfDemon

002 is basically the same as 007.
007 is a character in a book by Ian Flemming.
Everyone knows that you can convert a character to a string.
Therefore 002 is a string.

Actually I lied. The original post was

Note, this says nothing about compilers or operating systems or even computers. It just says any kind of number. It doesn't say that it's a string (which it could be) or anything like that. Just that it is not any kind of number.

Well, it is a kind of number. It's a number with leading zeros. If you want to restrict it to computers then that would be like saying 99999999999999999 isnt an integer because it doesn't fit into an int32, whereas any mathematician would argue that it is an integer.

In the same way that A is a kind of number (in hexadecimal). It's still also a string, but it is also definetly a kind of number.

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So basically, you are saying that it was Kristin Shepard that shot J.R.?? Astounding!

:afrog:

002 is a state.

Excuse me for responding to a post from the previous page.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tom Sawyer

You mean besides the fact that it's a .NET forum and a thread in which we're discussing how .NET handles a number?

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I was under the impression this was Chit Chat, not the .NET forum. Also, VBF has forums for PHP and C, so it's not a given that we're discussing .NET.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by timeshifter

And this proves that you completely missed the point.

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No, you missed the point. This is Chit-Chat. I have successfully trolled you.

BAM!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by timeshifter

002 assigned to an int will resolve to 2. This isn't about whether 2 is a number, it's about whether 002 is a number. 002 assigned to a string will resolve to 002, and since there's no change, that's what it is. As an int, 0002 == 2, but as a string, 0002 != 2.

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Wrong.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by kasracer

No, you missed the point. This is Chit-Chat. I have successfully trolled you.

BAM!
Wrong.

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I miss the old kasracer. I hope this thread is bringing him back out. ;)

No TS, if this debate must circle around programming, i really should tell you that 002 assigned to a string will result in an error. ;)

I didn't assign 002 to a string. I assigned "002" to a string. Which is a string.

That's the point.

Code:

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Dim myVar As String
myVar = 002

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Will result in an error.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Disiance

That's the point.

Code:

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Dim myVar As String
myVar = 002

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Will result in an error.

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Turn off Option Explicit, you senile old fool. :mad:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by timeshifter

I didn't assign 002 to a string. I assigned "002" to a string. Which is a string.

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But you said you assigned 002 to a string;)

But when I type it in to my program it doesn't complain (sorry my VB's a bit rusty)

Code:

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On Error Resume Next
Dim myVar As String
myVar = 002

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Hmm.. I wonder why... remove the first line and see if it still works.

Or better yet. Don't use Vb. it's so implicit it makes me sick.

what a ridiculous argument.

Tom sawyer says "don't use your computer to prove 002 is a number. If you do, you are narrow minded and not relating to the rest of the universe"
Meanwhile every example timeshifter has posted supporting his view is using a computer.

Meanwhile I (who the original comment was directed at) have not acutally listed an example from a computer. I have listed numerous examples from the "rest of the universe"

Here's something to think about, if a number can't have a leading zero, how do you represent a value OF zero? And i am sure even elementary students have been provided with math problems that end up with leading zeros in the answer if you work them out on paper.
[code]
_____
5/19
you do this the way every school kid learns, and you write a leading zero over the one.

plenty more examples available upon request, but simply put: even a computer knows it's a number, even if you try to fool it by forcing it as a string.
msgbox val("002")

Quote:

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Originally Posted by timeshifter

Hmm.. I wonder why... remove the first line and see if it still works.

Or better yet. Don't use Vb. it's so implicit it makes me sick.

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:) I couldn't resist it. I'm a bad bad person. :D

Yes. Yes you are.

At the end of the day, what can you learn from this discussion?

Data types make entertaining discussions.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by visualAd

I miss the old kasracer. I hope this thread is bringing him back out. ;)

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Ha, not so much... but Chit-Chat can be fun :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by kasracer

Ha, not so much... but Chit-Chat can be fun :)

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Wrong Kris :p

Only in CC could we expend this much effort debating whether redundant zeros can be considered as part of a number. CC FTW!