Re: UK failing its children
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Originally Posted by MasterBlaster
I've never worked at a company that paid equally for equal work either. However, they all paid by position and ,say, a mid level programmer "position" pays mid programmer salary regardless of the sex of the employee currently filling that position. All of the companies I've worked for do their resource funds allocation by position, not by Sex. I know personally when I am working out my quarterly budgets and allocate funds to add another position, the thought process is, "I have 50,000 to pay a junior programmer so I will add a new position to my staff, not " I have 40,000 to pay a junior female programmer and 50,000 to pay a junior male programmer". 99% of the time in my experience, the allocation of funds for a position is set at least 2-4 months before that position is even filled, and at the time the position is created no one usually knows who the hell is going to fill that position let alone weather or not they are male or female.
That may be how you do business, but it's not how everyone does it. You may allocate a certain amount of money to pay a programmer, but what you've allocated and what you actually offer them aren't always the same thing, and when it comes to raises and promotions men scramble to the top on our backs.
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You can choose to not by the manual labor argument but it is a statistical fact. There is sexual discrimination(for good reason mind you) in the labor sector and the labor sector is large enough to skew the numbers of male to female income to always point to males making a higher income.
Again, I don't buy it. I want hard data. This is the first time I've ever heard this argument before.
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Also, if you are not making as much as your male counterparts, find another job. Descrimination in the white collar world is not the norm any more and your working for asholes.
I guess everyone's an ashole. The pay gap in the UK is larger than it is in the US last time I checked, and there's no sign of it closing. I bet even if you took out the manual labor sector the gap would not close by much.
Re: UK failing its children
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Originally Posted by disruptivehair
That may be how you do business, but it's not how everyone does it. You may allocate a certain amount of money to pay a programmer, but what you've allocated and what you actually offer them aren't always the same thing, and when it comes to raises and promotions men scramble to the top on our backs.
In our case, everybody gets paid the bottom of the wage category, so all do get paid the same. However, promotions are a different matter. I don't think there is any favoritism in this agency, but we are so wildly skewed to begin with that it hardly matters, and that skewing of the population seems to come from job interest. By that I mean that female biologists seem to go for different types of jobs than these, but I could just be making that up.
FD: If you don't know what a fish squeezer is, you probably are better off.
Re: UK failing its children
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Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker
In our case, everybody gets paid the bottom of the wage category, so all do get paid the same. However, promotions are a different matter. I don't think there is any favoritism in this agency, but we are so wildly skewed to begin with that it hardly matters, and that skewing of the population seems to come from job interest. By that I mean that female biologists seem to go for different types of jobs than these, but I could just be making that up.
FD: If you don't know what a fish squeezer is, you probably are better off.
Men are always full of excuses for the pay gap; they're very quick to dismiss it and to blame it all on us.
Makes you sort of weep for the future, eh? I don't think we're going to get any further ahead until we're in charge, and the way things are going that'll take a while.
Re: UK failing its children
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Originally Posted by disruptivehair
I don't think we're going to get any further ahead until we're in charge, and the way things are going that'll take a while.
The sooner the better as far as I'm concerned. After all, you'll be much cheaper. ;)
Re: UK failing its children
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Originally Posted by InvisibleDuncan
The sooner the better as far as I'm concerned. After all, you'll be much cheaper. ;)
First thing we'll do is sack people who make jokes like that. ;)
Re: UK failing its children
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Originally Posted by disruptivehair
That may be how you do business, but it's not how everyone does it. You may allocate a certain amount of money to pay a programmer, but what you've allocated and what you actually offer them aren't always the same thing, and when it comes to raises and promotions men scramble to the top on our backs.
Like I said, This is how I and the majority of comapanies are doing business, and if you work for someone who does not do it this way, get another job.
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Again, I don't buy it. I want hard data. This is the first time I've ever heard this argument before.
If you can not grasp that 63% of the work force is manual labor and a large percentage of those jobs a female can not perform or are discriminated against then I can't help you. It's math, you should be familliar with it. You are a database programmer right?
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I guess everyone's an ashole. The pay gap in the UK is larger than it is in the US last time I checked, and there's no sign of it closing. I bet even if you took out the manual labor sector the gap would not close by much.
Yeah a 63% change in your base statistic would have no effect whatsoever on that figure :rolleyes:
BTW 63% came from the Department of Labor, It was a couple years old so there may be an error margin of a few points.
Re: UK failing its children
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Originally Posted by disruptivehair
Men are always full of excuses for the pay gap; they're very quick to dismiss it and to blame it all on us.
What? You "choose" to continue to be employed by a company who pays your male counterparts more than they pay you and you're blaming men? :lol: Like I said the problem is with you. No one holds a gun to your head and makes you clock in every morning for an unfair salary. You do that on your own. If you want to make a fair salary, find someplace that pays a fair salary or demand more money from your current company. If you are worth it, they will pay up. It is cheaper to pay you the xtra x% than to rehire and retrain anyway.
Re: UK failing its children
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Originally Posted by disruptivehair
Men are always full of excuses for the pay gap; they're very quick to dismiss it and to blame it all on us.
Makes you sort of weep for the future, eh? I don't think we're going to get any further ahead until we're in charge, and the way things are going that'll take a while.
Actually, what I was saying that there is no pay gap here for the women who are here. However, the ratio of males to females in this field was much higher in grad school, and in my first job than it is in my current job. I don't believe that is caused by discrimination, but rather choice. There are a wide variety of job choices available to biologists: government, private industry, non-profit, etc. Some focus more on research, some on regulation, others on selling your soul for a company line, etc. It seems to me that women choose private or non-profit at a higher rate than government, though I have no clear idea why that would be.
Re: UK failing its children
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Originally Posted by MasterBlaster
What? You "choose" to continue to be employed by a company who pays your male counterparts more than they pay you and you're blaming men? :lol: Like I said the problem is with you. No one holds a gun to your head and makes you clock in every morning for an unfair salary. You do that on your own. If you want to make a fair salary, find someplace that pays a fair salary or demand more money from your current company. If you are worth it, they will pay up. It is cheaper to pay you the xtra x% than to rehire and retrain anyway.
Not much choice around here, this is the only thing going in this city! :lol: If I were in a big city with multiple opportunities, I'd agree with you 100%...but I'm not. Unless I want to commute 3-4 hours a day via public transport, this is it. :thumb:
Re: UK failing its children
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Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker
Actually, what I was saying that there is no pay gap here for the women who are here. However, the ratio of males to females in this field was much higher in grad school, and in my first job than it is in my current job. I don't believe that is caused by discrimination, but rather choice. There are a wide variety of job choices available to biologists: government, private industry, non-profit, etc. Some focus more on research, some on regulation, others on selling your soul for a company line, etc. It seems to me that women choose private or non-profit at a higher rate than government, though I have no clear idea why that would be.
I'm not talking about comparing teachers to CEOs, nurses to surgeons, etc. I'm talking about like-for-like. Equal qualifications. Equal skills. Equal ability to do the job. Even in situations where men and women are equally qualified and equally capable of doing a job, men on average are paid more and there isn't any way that anyone can persuade me that that is justifiable.
Re: UK failing its children
Well, I believe what you are saying is true, and it doesn't surprise me, though I don't agree with it. However, there are a few places that are actually fair, and I happen to work for one.
Re: UK failing its children
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talking about like-for-like. Equal qualifications. Equal skills. Equal ability to do the job. Even in situations where men and women are equally qualified and equally capable of doing a job, men on average are paid more and there isn't any way that anyone can persuade me that that is justifiable.
I definitely wouldn't try to persuade you that that's justifiable - it simply isn't.
The only thing I would say is that I've rarely come across it myself. I have come across a disparity in opportunities but rarely in the pay awarded once the position if filled. If you're experiencing that then I really would urge you to do something about it (arguments about whether or not you should have to are academic - in pragmatic terms the only person whose going to fight your corner is you.)
The bluntest tool you've got is to switch jobs but if the opportunities aren't available in your area that may not be an option. If you can prove that male employees doing the same job to the same level of ability with the same qualifications etc are getting paid more then you have a very good case to take it to tribunal and you'd probably win. That kind of discrimination is illegal. It may not make you the most popular person in the company but if you're headed back to the States soon (and therefore changing companies, presumably), what have you got to lose?
Re: UK failing its children
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Originally Posted by FunkyDexter
I definitely wouldn't try to persuade you that that's justifiable - it simply isn't.
Glad we cleared that up!
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The only thing I would say is that I've rarely come across it myself. I have come across a disparity in opportunities but rarely in the pay awarded once the position if filled. If you're experiencing that then I really would urge you to do something about it (arguments about whether or not you should have to are academic - in pragmatic terms the only person whose going to fight your corner is you.)
I think I'm sort of fairly compensated; I make £17 an hour, but my last company were jerks. No woman I know there got a raise in the three years I was there, but the men got raises. It was blatant and out in the open, but there was nothing I could do about it. Small company, no union, they sacked the last woman who complained. It took me from April 2005 to November 2005 to find another job, and the one I've got now isn't permanent.
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The bluntest tool you've got is to switch jobs but if the opportunities aren't available in your area that may not be an option. If you can prove that male employees doing the same job to the same level of ability with the same qualifications etc are getting paid more then you have a very good case to take it to tribunal and you'd probably win. That kind of discrimination is illegal. It may not make you the most popular person in the company but if you're headed back to the States soon (and therefore changing companies, presumably), what have you got to lose?
Tribunal? At my last company? Nobody bothered; nobody dared. I was harassed not only due to my gender but due to my nationality. I would have expected my black boss to sympathize since I'm sure he had experienced discrimination too, but no...he was always ready with a barrel full of excuses for it.
Re: UK failing its children
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I would have expected my black boss to sympathize since I'm sure he had experienced discrimination too, but no
It never seems to work that way. *******s beget *******s I'm afraid.
The thing about tribunals is that everyone's always afraid they'll make things worse by going to one but usually that's not the case. Companies know when they're out of line but it's usually politically easier for them to ignore the problem (and occasionally it may be deliberate) and take the path of least resistance (which usually involves creating a "that's just the way it is" culture). A culture then tends to build up of keeping heads down so as not to rock the boat or just quietly leaving.
But if you do go to a tribunal you gain a huge level of protection. If the company discriminates on the basis that you went to a tribunal before you simply go to a tribunal again, and the tribunal will nail a company to the wall for that. And remember, the vast majority of cases that are bought to tribunal are found in favour of the complainant.
Re: UK failing its children
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Originally Posted by FunkyDexter
It never seems to work that way. *******s beget *******s I'm afraid.
The thing about tribunals is that everyone's always afraid they'll make things worse by going to one but usually that's not the case. Companies know when they're out of line but it's usually politically easier for them to ignore the problem (and occasionally it may be deliberate) and take the path of least resistance (which usually involves creating a "that's just the way it is" culture). A culture then tends to build up of keeping heads down so as not to rock the boat or just quietly leaving.
But if you do go to a tribunal you gain a huge level of protection. If the company discriminates on the basis that you went to a tribunal before you simply go to a tribunal again, and the tribunal will nail a company to the wall for that. And remember, the vast majority of cases that are bought to tribunal are found in favour of the complainant.
Nobody ever won one when I was there; I knew the VP of strategy and he boasted that nobody had ever won in a tribunal against them. I wish I was making it up.
Re: UK failing its children
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Originally Posted by disruptivehair
Nobody ever won one when I was there; I knew the VP of strategy and he boasted that nobody had ever won in a tribunal against them. I wish I was making it up.
Sounds like someone was feeding you a line of sheit just to cover their own arse. If you were harassed or discriminated against then a crime has been comitted. There are attorneys that exist who will take your case and at least evaluate if there is a case to begin with at no cost to you. I don't pretend to understand UK law but I'm sure there is a UK equiv to the US system. If, you've been harassed, report it to your supervisor, If you contine to get harassed, report it to an attorney who will report it to the proper authorities usually for no charge. They will make their money back off of whatever settlement you get.
Re: UK failing its children
Do you know if anyone had actually tried and failed. In all honesty the vast majority of claims succeed so either
1. No-one had ever tried because they were all too scared (quite possible)
2. The company was doing nothing wrong (unlikely from what you've said)
3. The stategy VP was just lying to discourage claim attempts (also quite possible)
4. The company has somehow been extremely lucky and/or clever (possible but statistically unlikely)
I've often found that when you dig into these things what you find is that everyone's simply been too scared to actually pursue a claim or there's a missplaced sense of loyalty (surprisingly common in small companies) so the company never gets tested and gets to carry on exploiting its employees with gay abandon. (which is not to imply that gay people should be exploited - please don't anyone take out a claim against me)
Re: UK failing its children
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Originally Posted by MasterBlaster
Sounds like someone was feeding you a line of sheit just to cover their own arse. If you were harassed or discriminated against then a crime has been comitted. There are attorneys that exist who will take your case and at least evaluate if there is a case to begin with at no cost to you. I don't pretend to understand UK law but I'm sure there is a UK equiv to the US system. If, you've been harassed, report it to your supervisor, If you contine to get harassed, report it to an attorney who will report it to the proper authorities usually for no charge. They will make their money back off of whatever settlement you get.
I was too afraid at the time; they sacked people for minor infractions at that company even though technically you can't sack someone for a first offense unless it's gross misconduct, but they had a pretty wide definition of gross misconduct. I left that company nearly 2 years ago, so it's too late to do anything now. I can only console myself with the fact that they are in the cr@pper financially.
Re: UK failing its children
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Originally Posted by FunkyDexter
Do you know if anyone had actually tried and failed. In all honesty the vast majority of claims succeed so either
1. No-one had ever tried because they were all too scared (quite possible)
2. The company was doing nothing wrong (unlikely from what you've said)
3. The stategy VP was just lying to discourage claim attempts (also quite possible)
4. The company has somehow been extremely lucky and/or clever (possible but statistically unlikely)
I've often found that when you dig into these things what you find is that everyone's simply been too scared to actually pursue a claim or there's a missplaced sense of loyalty (surprisingly common in small companies) so the company never gets tested and gets to carry on exploiting its employees with gay abandon. (which is not to imply that gay people should be exploited - please don't anyone take out a claim against me)
You're probably right. The only thing that shocked me about that company was why I put up with it for so long. To be fair, I did start looking for another job after I'd been there for a year, but up in this part of the country it is very difficult to find I.T. work. I've been incredibly lucky with my current job in that I get to use some skills and acquire a few new ones, and even though the contract is ending soon (and I won't be seeking another one in the UK) it has been pretty good. Nobody has really treated me badly here.
Re: UK failing its children
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I can only console myself with the fact that they are in the cr@pper financially.
Hurrah, there is justice :bigyello:
I've found myself in quite bullying companies twice and I found that I just kept my head down too. The more recent time I didn't leave until they made me redundant either when I could have simply packed up and left. The most frightening thing I learned is that I'm actually, really, really easy to bully because I have a deep desire to do a good job and please my bosses. I suspect most people are like that.
Re: UK failing its children
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Originally Posted by FunkyDexter
Hurrah, there is justice :bigyello:
I've found myself in quite bullying companies twice and I found that I just kept my head down too. The more recent time I didn't leave until they made me redundant either when I could have simply packed up and left. The most frightening thing I learned is that I'm actually, really, really easy to bully because I have a deep desire to do a good job and please my bosses. I suspect most people are like that.
Yep, I'm an easy target too. :blush:
