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Don't worry SD, Xanith is a stuck record revolving around his favourite topics again. Slurs against France, UN is pityful etc ... we've seen and heard it from him a million times.
And when he's out of these he shuts up for about a month or so until everyone forgot about him and he can start anew.
It's a valiant effort of yours but you just can't argue with stuck records. :)
:p I enjoy a challenge!
You and your wife mate ... :p
:p
Facts are not slurs. If it bothers you that I bring up that France and the UN were caught up in the Oil for Food scam with Iraq, or that France had substantial oil drilling rights in Iraq so much so during the first Gulf War in 1991 they didn’t come on board until it was assured Saddam wouldn’t be removed from power, then don’t read anything I write anymore or put me back on ignore.Quote:
Originally posted by Wally Pipp
Don't worry SD, Xanith is a stuck record revolving around his favourite topics again. Slurs against France, UN is pityful etc ... we've seen and heard it from him a million times.
And when he's out of these he shuts up for about a month or so until everyone forgot about him and he can start anew.
It's a valiant effort of yours but you just can't argue with stuck records. :)
There are always two sides to a story, I am just showing the other side. I have to sit and listen to people drone on about how evil the US is, repeating the same media sound bites over and over again so you get to listen to my responses over and over. Believe me I don’t like repeating myself but it seems you cannot get through to some people :)
X
Aha, but unfortunately there is the crux of the matter. Whilst I agree that some people here post anti-US views if at all possible, their opinions are not treated with very much respect by those that can see both sides of the coin. Now, you say you are taking the counterbalance approach, but unfortunately it comes across much the same as the anti-US people, in that it is such a biased view of the world that it carries little argumentative weight.Quote:
Originally posted by Xanith
Facts are not slurs. If it bothers you that I bring up that France and the UN were caught up in the Oil for Food scam with Iraq, or that France had substantial oil drilling rights in Iraq so much so during the first Gulf War in 1991 they didn’t come on board until it was assured Saddam wouldn’t be removed from power, then don’t read anything I write anymore or put me back on ignore.
There are always two sides to a story, I am just showing the other side. I have to sit and listen to people drone on about how evil the US is, repeating the same media sound bites over and over again so you get to listen to my responses over and over. Believe me I don’t like repeating myself but it seems you cannot get through to some people :)
X
There's a lot of good things happening in this world, and a lot of bad things. Suprisingly enough (to some members here), a lot of them have nothing at all to do with the US (either good or bad). Some of them do.
Let's go over some points and see how balanced your views are (I would be interested in seeing HoneyBee's views on this as well).
Isreali Government - Terrorist regime or freedom fighters?
Palestinians - Terrorist regime or freedom fighters?
George Washington - Terrorist or freedom fighter?
The ANC - Terrorists or freedom fighters?
The Iraqi resistance - Terrorists or freedom fighters?
The French resistance - Terrorists or freedom fighters?
The Provisional IRA - Terrorists or freedom fighters?
The Real IRA - Terrorists or freedom fighters?
Pinochet - Terrorist or freedom Fighter?
President Galltierri (sp?) - Terrorist or freedom fighter?
I am curious how both of you divide the world up. Are these guys split into good guys and bad guys based on how the US government views these events?
Maybe it's not entirely Israel's land? Maybe they are also trying to grab more land this way from the Palestine?Quote:
Originally posted by Xanith
But that still doesn’t answer the question of why the UN is paying such huge attention to a nation building a wall in its own territory.
I don't see why these nations shouldn't look after their own economical and other interests when the US is obviously doing the same, i.e. imposing war on Iraq for its own petty selfish reasons. At least I would say these other nations didn't circumvent the UN.Quote:
Originally posted by Xanith
Yes the US has veto power much the same way France and Russia vetoed any action in Iraq to take down their buddy Saddam so their Oil for Food scam, drilling rights, and illegal weapon sales wouldn’t be disrupted.
Yeah, right and maybe I love George Bush. I have never heard your government say anything that remotely resembles what they are saying about Philippines: " We shall have to rethink our policies". Not pretty strong, eh?Quote:
Originally posted by Xanith
Like I said the US is asking Israel to stop building it that seems in line with what you want no?
Like maybe instead of wasting the 150000-odd soldiers in Iraq tryig to capture the oil the US should have deployed a small contingent in Sudan and Darfur as part of the international peace-keeping force? The US seems pretty stretched out in maintaining its two new states, namely Iraq and Afghanistan, to think about such small issues.Quote:
Originally posted by Xanith
[B]If the UN paid closer attention to the real atrocities going on in the world like what is currently going on in the Sudan where hundreds of thousands are dying instead of if Israel is building a stupid wall maybe the world would be better off.[/b
LOL, it just goes to show you can't learn history that's more than a couple of years old. Whenever I said Kashmir legally belongs to India, I have also said that the then Maharaja of Kashmir, Raja Harising signed an agreement to merge J & K into India. Post independence there were still some areas ruled by smaller lords, kind of what you have now in Afghanistan, and the then home minister of India, Sardar Vallabhbhai Patel personally ensured the merger of all these independent states into the Indian republic. Even Goa was under the Portugese rule for quite a few years post independence. There was a huge movement to free Goa from the Portugese, a mini freedom movement. Then there was Hyderabad, ruled by the Nizam, and a few other areas. J & K was another such state which was under the rule of Raja Harisingh. He had still not decided whether to merge it with India or Pakistan or remain an independent state. However soon after independence Pakistan invaded J & K, disguising their soldiers as local tribals. There were a few British units in J & K at that time and they simply surrendered the territory they were holding to the invading Pakistani army. This is how you got the PoK. When the invaders reached the borders of Shrinagar, Raja Harisingh finally agreed to merge his state with India and sought help from the Indian military, who then went in and defeated the Pakistani invasion. However because of some pretty soft policies of our then polical leaders the territory of J & K which Pakistan had already occupied was never recovered, even after winning the war.Quote:
Originally posted by Xanith
Kind of like how your country enters Kashmir? Oh wait you said that belongs to India, much the same way the so called “occupied territory” belongs to Israel. Maybe the UN should be passing more resolutions against India over Kashmir huh?
Apart from your ignorance, it also tells you that India legally claims the entire region of J&K (including PoK) because of the agreement between the Indian government and Raja Harisingh. At Harisingh's insistence a separate article was added to our constitution which confers spcecial status to the Kashmiri people not available to the ordinary Indian citizen.
You may say the people should really decide. Let me ask you one question: The US government when it deals with Saudi Arabia, doesn't ask for proof of majority of the people. It goes by what the Saudi government says, whatever form it may be. So it's perfectly legal and acceptable that the king of J&K handed it over to India.
The whole conflict is because Pakistan wants a vote from the people of Kashmir, however since they are illegally occupying Kashmir right now, you can't give in to that demand, not just yet.
So before you start ranting off about Kashmir, keep that background in your mind.
And we are living in more harmonious relations with the Pakistanis than the Israel-Palestine.
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What are the petty selfish reasons you speak of?Quote:
Originally posted by honeybee
I don't see why these nations shouldn't look after their own economical and other interests when the US is obviously doing the same, i.e. imposing war on Iraq for its own petty selfish reasons. At least I would say these other nations didn't circumvent the UN.
The country of France is a joke, how has there empire survived? Oh wait...
Invading and destroying a sovereign country to gain political mileage :pQuote:
Originally posted by davebat
What are the petty selfish reasons you speak of?
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Who did that?Quote:
Originally posted by honeybee
Invading and destroying a sovereign country to gain political mileage :p
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IraqQuote:
Originally posted by CORONA BEER
Who did that?
Oh yea, i dont see how invading kuwait would gain political mileage though :confused:Quote:
Originally posted by demotivater
Iraq
Ignorance is bliss, really :)Quote:
Originally posted by demotivater
Iraq
Read this new piece of news on the BBC website about the US sale of military equipment to Taiwan:
Which means the US government doesn't really want to resolve the conflict. It will officially maintain support to China, and in the background, fuel another war by selling missiles and other military hardware to Taiwan. How convenient! How utterly selfish and irresponsible too. It just goes to show that the US doesn't really care a damn about what happens, as long as its coffers are filled with big bucks.Quote:
BBC Website
Spokesmen in Washington and Beijing said Mr Bush reaffirmed his backing for the one-China policy - which does not support Taiwanese independence - while reasserting America's commitment to help Taiwan defend itself.
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Are you smoking crack?Quote:
Originally posted by honeybee
Ignorance is bliss, really :)
Read this new piece of news on the BBC website about the US sale of military equipment to Taiwan:
Which means the US government doesn't really want to resolve the conflict. It will officially maintain support to China, and in the background, fuel another war by selling missiles and other military hardware to Taiwan. How convenient! How utterly selfish and irresponsible too. It just goes to show that the US doesn't really care a damn about what happens, as long as its coffers are filled with big bucks.
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We dont help China.
damn Communist
Dear dear! I wish you read my post before you posted that :oQuote:
Originally posted by CORONA BEER
Are you smoking crack?
We dont help China.
damn Communist
There is still time for you to go through my post. Read it and then re-post your comments...
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Hmm... let's see, they were one of the first to get some of the US and some of Africa, but I guess people who know nothing of anything and are stupid isn't capable of warfare? And Napoleon is really exagurated(sp?) .Quote:
Originally posted by CORONA BEER
The country of France is a joke, how has there empire survived? Oh wait...
shat tha fack up
Unfortunately, I'll have to agree with you on that one, I haven't heard of the US helping another country without knowing it would be beneficial to them in the long run - and don't even begin to mention WW2, you don't think the threat was seen at that time? Not to mention the trade routes being stopped.Quote:
Originally posted by honeybee
It just goes to show that the US doesn't really care a damn about what happens, as long as its coffers are filled with big bucks.
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And what's wrong with that? Survival of the smartest, see ;)Quote:
Originally posted by vbNeo
I haven't heard of the US helping another country without knowing it would be beneficial to them in the long run -
A lot of people want to look at the world as thought it should be some sort of an ideal place, where everyone's nice and everyone does "what's right". I know I'm repeating myself, but I'm getting to the point, again.
How about considering that "right" and "wrong" are merely opinions? That it's your society's perception of right and wrong which you are going by? No, I doubt we will consider that, because it hurts our minds, ego, pride, yadda yadda yadda. Who's going to be the first to admit that they are influenced?
You (and your governments) will just keep moaning, whining and complaining about the whole deal, without the impulse to do something about it. No doubt, the brains and cleverness are there, just that nothing will be done.
Nowhere in the animal kingdom, (and since we are animals, this example applies), does anyone do anything for anyone else without a reason. We all do things for ourselves. So why expect things to be different at a higher level? We're social, yet territorial. Our country is our 'territory', and we therefore feel comfortable in the propaganda thrown at us, and to wallow in our own patriotic filth. Or rather, what we are told is patriotism.
It's only hypocritical to expect another to act in an ideal manner.
The US does, indeed, take advantage. It gets things done the way it wants. Selfish, smart, clever, deceitful, call it what you like. It will all be true, whatever you say. But the bottom line is, sitting back and watching (and criticizing) won't get you anywhere.
Join it. Take advantage. Be happy. And please, for your own good.: Turn your television off. Try thinking for yourself. (And no, 'believing' that you think for yourself does not make it true. Your words speak for your mind, so prove it.)
Look at things in a broader perspective and realize that it's the way things will be, not forever, but for a long time to come. And the reason it will be this way because many people, in power, like it that way. It is good for them, for now.
There is a difference between active and passive. It applies here.
And vbNeo, if you think this post was directed at you, get yourself ready for a can of whoopass. :)
Quote:
The US does, indeed, take advantage. It gets things done the way it wants. Selfish, smart, clever, deceitful, call it what you like. It will all be true, whatever you say. But the bottom line is, sitting back and watching (and criticizing) won't get you anywhere.
ie -- the RIGHT way. :D
First of all, who said it is Americas duty to help other nations? And what exactly do you mean by help?Quote:
Originally posted by vbNeo
I haven't heard of the US helping another country without knowing it would be beneficial to them in the long run
You make a flag, we make a flag, it's as simple as that.
The flag follows the dollar, the soldier follows the flag. Hail Capitalism!
By the same logic, the terrorists are equally justified in making their demands and exploiting the situation as much as the US. So I guess the US really doesn't have any reasons to complain about anything :pQuote:
Originally posted by mendhak
And what's wrong with that? Survival of the smartest, see ;)
A lot of people want to look at the world as thought it should be some sort of an ideal place, where everyone's nice and everyone does "what's right". I know I'm repeating myself, but I'm getting to the point, again.
How about considering that "right" and "wrong" are merely opinions? That it's your society's perception of right and wrong which you are going by? No, I doubt we will consider that, because it hurts our minds, ego, pride, yadda yadda yadda. Who's going to be the first to admit that they are influenced?
You (and your governments) will just keep moaning, whining and complaining about the whole deal, without the impulse to do something about it. No doubt, the brains and cleverness are there, just that nothing will be done.
Nowhere in the animal kingdom, (and since we are animals, this example applies), does anyone do anything for anyone else without a reason. We all do things for ourselves. So why expect things to be different at a higher level? We're social, yet territorial. Our country is our 'territory', and we therefore feel comfortable in the propaganda thrown at us, and to wallow in our own patriotic filth. Or rather, what we are told is patriotism.
It's only hypocritical to expect another to act in an ideal manner.
The US does, indeed, take advantage. It gets things done the way it wants. Selfish, smart, clever, deceitful, call it what you like. It will all be true, whatever you say. But the bottom line is, sitting back and watching (and criticizing) won't get you anywhere.
Join it. Take advantage. Be happy. And please, for your own good.: Turn your television off. Try thinking for yourself. (And no, 'believing' that you think for yourself does not make it true. Your words speak for your mind, so prove it.)
Look at things in a broader perspective and realize that it's the way things will be, not forever, but for a long time to come. And the reason it will be this way because many people, in power, like it that way. It is good for them, for now.
There is a difference between active and passive. It applies here.
And vbNeo, if you think this post was directed at you, get yourself ready for a can of whoopass. :)
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Correct. Your point?
I shall keep that in mind whenever I read about Bush claiming the attacks against the US are attacks against civilized humans and blah blah blah. Clearly the world ends at the borders of the US for Bush :)Quote:
Originally posted by CORONA BEER
First of all, who said it is Americas duty to help other nations? And what exactly do you mean by help?
You make a flag, we make a flag, it's as simple as that.
It's really as simple as that, but as I said earlier, no other nation makes such a big deal out of it as the US. It's a revolt by the middle east people against the US policies, because that's the only way they see to level scores with the US. I don't see why that should be taken as an "attack against humanity" and all other gibberish pouring out of Bush and Dick's mouths. Or why the other nations should help the US capture the Iraqi oil for itself. I say the Philippines took a bold and probably right decision. They have no business getting involved in the Iraq mess. No other nation, than the US, has any business there, really. Because they ain't even getting a share of the pie :p
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Same as above: It's the US' war and nobody else's. It's not even properly justified for the US' own sake. It's just completely absurd.Quote:
Originally posted by mendhak
Correct. Your point?
The only reason why the US invaded Iraq probably is because it knew Saddam didn't have any weapons. Not even conventional weapons to fight off the invasion. Clearly catering to the "humanitarian" needs all over the world is not the US' business :) So it's simply attending to its 'business' in Iraq and nothing else.
Or maybe they have plans to invade Sudan and North Korea too. Who knows :o
I just went through the responses on the BBC for the security alerts. The whole thing proves one point : Now or later, people will start paying less and less attention to these alerts and they will eventually become useless. Part of the routine. Which again proves that the terrorists can strike anytime anywhere. You can't frisk each and every person, and if you did think of that it's not worth living in the country. Keep making mistakes, keep poking your nose where it shouldn't be and no coloured alerts can protect you.
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And now, allow me to repeat your own words:
:rolleyes:Quote:
Originally posted by honeybee, but obnoxiously repeated by mendhak
Dear dear! I wish you read my post before you posted that :o
There is still time for you to go through my post. Read it and then re-post your comments...
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Honeybee where the hell are you from?
Iraq
When terrorists kill Americans then surely the Americans do have something to complain about? What Mendak is saying is true, to the american it is unjustified to suffer terrorist attacks and yet justified to invade Iraq.Quote:
Originally posted by honeybee
By the same logic, the terrorists are equally justified in making their demands and exploiting the situation as much as the US. So I guess the US really doesn't have any reasons to complain about anything :p
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Just as the loser countries will justify terrorist attacks. Honeybee do you think the terrorist attacks in America are justified?
You are allowed to repeat that, but remember my post in question was a few words, while yours is much much bigger :pQuote:
Originally posted by mendhak
And now, allow me to repeat your own words:
:rolleyes:
DaveBat, your own country's 9/11 commission has found no connection between Iraq and Al Qaeda. Therefore please don't give me that crap about terrorists, Al Qaeda and invading Iraq. Iraq was invaded for all the different reasons than were told to the world by the new BBC (Bush, Blair and Cheney?).
And if you still want to believe Bush's rants about the commission's findings being wrong, you may have more than one village idiot in the government, which is equally serious :p
That BBC page I read from, has a Briton telling about the situation in Afghanistan and how the security has deteriorated there because all the attention is on Iraq. Looks like the US can't even properly clean after herself :p
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In fairness, I can see what Honeybee is getting at here. If you argue that everybody does things for their own selfish reasons, and that in itself is justification to do something, then in the terrorists eye's they are justified in their attacks.
There is little difference with America feeling justified in attacking Iraq. It all boils down to what what you think is best for you and your people/country.
I would even challenge the term 'terrorists' or 'insurgents'. I know I am going to be called a few more names and labels but I don't care :pQuote:
Originally posted by Ex-FB
In fairness, I can see what Honeybee is getting at here. If you argue that everybody does things for their own selfish reasons, and that in itself is justification to do something, then in the terrorists eye's they are justified in their attacks.
There is little difference with America feeling justified in attacking Iraq. It all boils down to what what you think is best for you and your people/country.
America has detailed hundreds of people without proper questioning or access to its judiciary. No doubt Guantanamo was specifically chosen to carry out this illegal act because they have the excuse of it not being on the US territory and the "war on terror" not being a "war" etc. By the same logic the so called 'terrorists' in Iraq could justify the hostage taking. Guantanamo Bay is quite simply an extension of the hostage-taking and kidnapping, that is supposed to appear legal.
The so called terrorists and insurgents are fighting against the US occupation, so in fact they should be termed freedom fighters. Of course the question raised by Saddam Hussein still is unanswered: Does the US have the authority to appoint any officers or executive bodies in Iraq? So aren't the US the 'insurgents' here? And the terrorists?
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Terrorist Pizza?Quote:
Originally posted by vbNeo
shat tha fack up
I never said IRAQ was invaded becuase of terroist attacks, I was making a point about justifacation of things happening.Quote:
Originally posted by honeybee
You are allowed to repeat that, but remember my post in question was a few words, while yours is much much bigger :p
DaveBat, your own country's 9/11 commission has found no connection between Iraq and Al Qaeda. Therefore please don't give me that crap about terrorists, Al Qaeda and invading Iraq. Iraq was invaded for all the different reasons than were told to the world by the new BBC (Bush, Blair and Cheney?).
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How nice :) So you mean to say you (i.e. the US government) invaded Iraq for some reasons other than terrorism, now you are faced with armed opposition which you label as terrorists and so you are now justifying the invasion with it?Quote:
Originally posted by davebat
I never said IRAQ was invaded becuase of terroist attacks, I was making a point about justifacation of things happening.
Or have you forgotten the speeches your president gave on so many occasions, linking Iraq with Al Qaeda and therefore the 9/11 attacks, just after it was apparent Iraq didn't have any WMDs?
Come on, considering the situation in Iraq right now, even the oil reserves can't be any justification for the Iraq invasion :D
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Why dont we Nuke every Arab nation and get it over with?
Fortunately I'm just as American as you are, hailing from Great Britain. So your attempts at being a smart ass have failed miserably. Why is it you presume I am American. Is it my view points ?Quote:
Originally posted by honeybee
How nice :) So you mean to say you (i.e. the US government) invaded Iraq for some reasons other than terrorism, now you are faced with armed opposition which you label as terrorists and so you are now justifying the invasion with it?
Or have you forgotten the speeches your president gave on so many occasions, linking Iraq with Al Qaeda and therefore the 9/11 attacks, just after it was apparent Iraq didn't have any WMDs?
Come on, considering the situation in Iraq right now, even the oil reserves can't be any justification for the Iraq invasion :D
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Im sure you would be offended if I labelled you an as coming from IRAQ.
For shame, your racism has no place here.
Because the area would loose its valueQuote:
Originally posted by CORONA BEER
Why dont we Nuke every Arab nation and get it over with?
Yea but we can build more oil wells, we could call it Exxon-Iraq.Quote:
Originally posted by vbNeo
Because the area would loose its value