about creation and AI

OK, I'll work this through for you.

The childs DNA doesn't say he is a wife beater, he might have got his Doa I beat my wife gene from his mothers side and that might be a don't beat your wife gene, but even if he get's it from his fathers side, it's unlikley to be a beat your wife gene, He'll probably loose his temper quite quickly, but he won't neccacerraly be pre-programmed to beat his wife, he could beat his temper by taking up yoga or some way of learning to control his temper. If we look at the Nurtur side, he could see the wife beating in one of two ways.

He sees wife beating as the done thing or

He sees how muich his mother is hurt by his father and goes against his fathers habits by not beating his wife, He has learnt by his experience, because his DNA tells him to.

also he could start out by seeing it happen and believing that this is what happens, but other influences could suggest this is wrong.

we do not need this 3rd influence to explain why people do not take ater their parents, there are so many influences and so many ways he could be influenced that he could turn out in any way at all.

They believe that the Universe first started as matter floating around. It then exploded. It's gravity was so high that it pulled everything back in and blew up again. There is proof that the Universe is expanding. They prove this by using radio waves. This is kinda what it would look like. If the Universe wasnt expanding "M". The Universe as it grows..."(\/)" the radio waves are longer and they are spreading farther and farther apart. Our moon moves away from Earth 1 inch every year. The Univese will prolly expand forever. It's very cool. Just wish we could get out there in Spaceships to explore. That means, ALL HUMANS!!!..sorry to sound smart and ****, but Astronomy and Space is my favorite subject :)

[Edited by Matthew Gates on 05-11-2000 at 04:04 PM]

Gen-X

Read what Sam had wrote. I think similar to hyim on this subject. There are millions of functions of your DNA. For example: You wake up in the morning and want to have either chocolate or caramal. You have tried them before so your body remembers and stores the tastes of both of them. So you like both of them. Your DNA functions will retrieve that information and select a choice for you. NOT your soul.

Mathew, Dorry to ruin you're moment, but there was no before the big bang, there was no time at the big bang, it's quite hard to say why, time does funny things in gravitational fields like that, it's why you can't get out of a black hole, because there's no time in them for you to get out in.

Actually, Sam, theoretically, a black hole is like a Einstine-Rosen bridge. It is said that every black hole leads you to what is called a white hole. It's just the oppostie of a black hole. It throws everything out. Anyway, when you get sucked in, you are thrown out through a white hole and into a parallel Universe.

This may sound stupid but what is a Quark. From what I've head they are particals that when formed a group of 3, they form an atom...Someone else mentioned that in the beginning, it was a collisionof quarks that created the first atom. but how can that be. If in the beginning there was no particals, how could a quark have exsisted?

A black hole forms when a Super Giant Star explodes. It is then filled with negative atoms and mass. It gravity is so strong and heavy-weighted...it will crush you like a bug, if your talking bout the black hole of space. When you get out into space..dont go near a black hole :P.

Damn, all this bullshit talk...i guess that's why the board is called "chit chat."

:)

[Edited by Matthew Gates on 05-24-2000 at 08:53 PM]

I think that's a science fiction theory, based on rotating black holes, rotating black holes have an inside which is as large as the outside, they have 2 event horizons one on the inside and one on the outside, when you go through the black hole is still a rotating black hole but the inside is where you came from, this sounds like a "White hole" but white holes don't make too much sense in physics, it could be another black hole which you managed to get out from by gaining enough speed going into it in the first place. I don't understand the physics of why you can't get out of them (Don't say it's because the escape velocity is faster than the speed of light, that's not it) so I can't really say. Or it could be the big bang of another universe as I have said time works in mysterious ways.

Astronomy and Space was my favorite subject about 7 years ago. Now i have none. Everything's extreemly in favour thats debated around Science, Math, Philosophy and Religion. I've read that theory about universe expanding for ever and didn't like it. After say about 10^64 years we have not even black holes and neutron stars left, just distant distant particles.

For spaceships:

I don't think thats going to be a big thing if we can't pass space without having to use a whole star of energy to accelerate into a enough satisfying speed, ie 32c. I had posted my theory about starlanes of Warped space to transfer matter between planets but i only got some "that's only star trekky scifi"-replies. Now i have to post it again. Building starlanes of warped space that runs trough normal space around a set of habitable planets is a possibility in future. If we expand all over Milky way, we have a network of those, and with different warp speed, like speedlimits in traffic, or cables transfering data in internet. This isn't any science fiction i'm talking about, it's just a matter of time and we have the right tools to create this network.

what is a Quark. From what I've head they are particals that when formed a group of 3,they form an atom...Someone else mentioned that in the beginning, it was a collisionof quarks that created the first atom. but how can that be. If in the beginning there was no particals, how could a quark have exsisted?

someone back me up on this, but I've said it several times.

There was no Before the big bang

it's one of these things that's hard to accept, but it has been "proved" I don't like having to put that word in quotes but otherwise Gen-X will have a go at me the theory of the big bang was worked out mathematicly, and the maths shows that there was no time before the big bang, it's part of the big bang theory.

Anyway, as I was saying, there just was the universe, as a singularity, which rapidly expanded into the early universe.

There is a wierd explanation in physics involving complex numbers but I don't fully understand it and don't have a hope of explaining it. Gen-X, got an explanation? :D

No matter how much we learn..we will prolly never ever find out the truth. It's just meant to be as is. There is the future. The past can only be guessed at, while the future, is what we control. At least, here on Earth, how we make of it. The Universe is automatic..does everything by itself and we cannot change that. Damn...had to get that out, i feel so much better :). Its nice talking about a subject I love for once. Some people that "understand". Alotta people dont take an interest in space enough to talk about it. But i forgot, i have people from all over the world who can talk about it that wonder whats beyond.

New Subject: Scientist believe we were first on Mars and came here by Asteroids (our molecules and stuff, that is).

Care to talk about that new subject now?

Megatron

You really, really can't get over this hurdle can you? Everyone else is jumping over and you keep hitting the wall :(

- Quarks exist
- 3 of them are found inside each proton, electron and neutron
- They have NEVER been found in singles
- If you break them apart they DISAPPEAR (NOT expend energy and change form... they just CEASE to exist)

To try and get passed your obsession with everything having to consist of matter...

QUARKS DO NOT EXIST IN OUR UNIVERSE AS SINGLE ENTITIES. THEY ONLY PHASE INTO THE 3RD DIMENSION WHEN IN COMBINATION WITH 2 OTHER QUARKS

Its like OXYGEN. When it is very cold its like a block of Ice... you can touch it and see it... but when it heats up it changes STATE to a gas. As a gas you can neither SEE it or TOUCH it. The molecule O2 has therefor "PHASED" in and out of the visible spectrum.

Some believe Quarks actually exist outside of our dimension and only come into it when in sets of 3... others believe that they exist in our dimension but are "PHASED" such that we cannot see them until they resonate (which they only do as sets of 3)

I really wish you would get over this idea that everthing has to be made of matter... All I need to do is say the word "Anti-Matter", point to the extremely Large Particle Accelerators around the world and give you proof that things OTHER than matter exist.

Sam
Of all the theories of the start of the universe I think the cyclic big bang is the most likely. If Einstein was right that Matter bends Time/Space then the Universe would have been a finite size allowing you to travel in ANY direction and still end up where you started.

As the matter expanded so did the amount of "space" inside this universe. Things are not actually "getting further apart" as it were, they are instead getting "MORE SPACE BETWEEN THEM".

I know its hard to understand but it does show everything perfectly.

To "get further apart" means you have something to GROW INTO. The universe has nothing to grow into... there is nothing on the other side... you wont REACH an end just like you never reach the end of the world if you are keeping to the surface. The capacity for size within our universe is increasing but that is as a result of the matter dispersing, causing the bend in time/space to be less and less.

So to back Sam up, Time does not exist outside of our Universe, it wasn't there before the bang, and it wont be there when/if we come back in for another bang. Time requires 3 dimensions to function in, and those 3 dimensions are RULED by gravity and matter.

Anything outside of it just doesn't exist.

Gen-X

Let's get one thing straight here. I NEVER SAID THAT EVERYTHING WAS MADE UP OF MATTER! WHAT THE IS LIGHT THEN? WHAT ARE THOUGHTS? THEY ARE NOT MATTER.

Here's another question I hope that you guys can answer. Did did the Universe exsist befroe the big Bag. If there was no time, it is impossible to say if it was that way for countless ages or even the briefest moment. How could it have exsisted without time?

Can't we just say, "God created it"?
Damn, if the Universe existed before..it couldn't of always been just matter always floating there. Something had to create it. A great great being or something, right? And when you die, if there is an afterlife, do you learn all the answers to life, or do you just keep wondering for all eternity?

[Edited by Matthew Gates on 05-12-2000 at 08:19 PM]

If you understood how GOD CREATED this
world, then your would be to his level.
He CREATED you to be lower then him so
therefore you dont understand.

Dont think you can understand everything
cause you cant.

Quote:

---

1. There was no Before the big bang

2. I NEVER SAID THAT EVERYTHING WAS MADE UP OF MATTER! WHAT THE IS LIGHT THEN? WHAT ARE THOUGHTS? THEY ARE NOT MATTER

3. Of all the theories of the start of the universe I think the cyclic big bang is the most likely. If Einstein was right that Matter bends Time/Space then the Universe would have been a finite size allowing you to travel in ANY direction and still end up where you started.

4. Here's another question I hope that you guys can answer. Did did the Universe exsist befroe the big Bag. If there was no time, it is impossible to say if it was that way for countless ages or even the briefest moment. How could it have exsisted without time?

5. If you understood how GOD CREATED this
world, then your would be to his level.
He CREATED you to be lower then him so
therefore you dont understand.
Dont think you can understand everything
cause you cant.

---

(1,4,5). Exactly my point, In order to exist from a stage when we didn't, there must be time on both sides, before and after Bigbang. And That's not fact, because Universe have "always existed" in our terms, starting from big bang to now, and before Bigbang is nothing because "everything" is defined to everything inside Universe, and the logics of "There's nothing outside universe", "There's nothing before Big bang" is correct. Therefor we cannot apply logics on what's differing Universe from outside. We can never understand how, but we can always try.

So, as god is on a higher level of existance, outside logics of universe, there's nothing that stops him from knowing everything about our universe, contradicting that we are on a lower level, wherefrom we just can see our world and lower levels.

2. Fotons are particles, which is also what matter is.

3. That is another crazy theory Gen-x, You can't base everything on Einsteins theory of gravity and at the same time having autodynamics unsolved, they're conflicting and a lot tells that Einstein was wrong, but that was your idea from the first beginning.

Matter is anything that takesup wieth and space.

Picture a room full of photons. Are you going to be able to NOT enter it because there are to many photons? No. They don't take up space nor do they have any weight.

Actually they have both, and they won't stop you from walking in to a room, because they will 1. be absorbed into your clothes or 2. reflect

But they don't take up any space nor do they have any weight. You can ask any scientist on this one.

Gen-X



I'm midly confused about your quark Ideas.

you say singular quarks exist in another dimension?? That doesn't make sense, do you mean they exist in another hyper-plane of some kind of 4D space, err I don't know how to explain that in English Basicly a couple of feet in a direction that we can't go in. I don't know what you mean by something existing in a dimension, a dimension isn't an object, not even an abstract object, (try pointing to the 3rd dimension.)

If we're talking about the first Idea(the one which makes sense) then why exist in our hyperplane in 3s, surely there's an infinite number of others, it's pretty unlikley they should choose ours.

(If anyone's lost me at this point, Imagine an infinite number of parralell universes, arranged in a line so that every point on the line is a different universe (this line is a 3rd dimension of space, you can't picture it, just imagine that for every number there is (including fractions and irrational numbers, but nut including complex numbers) there is a universe. so between any 2 universes there is an infinity of other universes.) Gen-X is suggesting that quarks move through these universes in the same way as we move through space) When I refer to a Hyperplane in 4D space I mean one of these universes.


now, there is no next hyperplane to ours, between ours and any other hyperplane there is an infinity of others inbetween, how do the quarks Jump across these planes (remember, they are moveing as if through space) and how do they exist in ours and ours alone, if they exist in several then they must be a spherical ended hyperprism, ie they are the same size in all the hyperplanes they exist in, therefore they are a finite size in one hyperplane and not in the next, but as I have said, there is no next hyperplane, there is no way it could work this way, or any other way that I can think of.

I can think of a different explanation, essentially the amplitude of the particles probability wave is complex (most probability waves are in fact imaginary, it is the negative of the square of its displacement that in fact gives its probability of being there (that's true I believe)) the colour of a quark represents the amplitude can be any of 3 values R, G, or B which are complex numbers sutch that

R^2, G^2, B^2, (R+B)^2, (R+G)^2, (B+G)^2 are imaginary and
(R+B+G)^2 is real, ie only when the quarks are in a three do they have a real probability of being anywhere

I havn't bothered trying to find solutions to this, I dopn't even know if there are any I also can't think what an imaginary probability would do but still, this way makes a bit more sense.



Megatron

If there wer enough photons in a room they would prevent you from going in, experiments have shown that light exerts a force, just not a very big one, NASA are investigating wheather it would be possible to power a space rocket by shining a powerful laser or maser on it.

[Edited by Sam Finch on 05-13-2000 at 11:05 PM]

Sam:
I thought parallell univeses where disconnected from each other in room, just time connects them, and in one way, splitting one universe in infinite ones every moment. Or am i wrong? Either way, i don't believe in parallell universes becauses it bases on that universe has to be random.
Meg:
E=mc^2, that's what a scientist would say, you can calculate the weight by yourself: m=E/c^2=h/(lambda*c) where h is planc's constant, c speed of light and lambda the wavelength of the photon. I'm don't have the values here but a photon is a particle so it has a size.

I believe that how you act is based on the functions in your DNA, thus there is no need for a soul.

Megatron

Haven't you ever heard of "Solar Sails"? It is an attempt to use photons in space like we use wind on the high seas. They DO have both size AND weight.

Oh and about your DNA thing again.. why repeat it? If you have MORE to add then by all means restate and "ENHANCE"... but just simply restating your believe (ie no support or examples, reasons or anything else) is like someone trying to convince themselves something is true.

I *am* a mushroom... I *am* a mushroom... I *am* a mushroom

:D


Sam

I don't think you have grasped what I am getting at with "other dimensions"... Think about our own for a moment. Dimensions are contained "WITHIN" dimensions.

LENGTH
This dimension doesn't really exist as far as we are concerned... its kind of imaginary. Its a vector and it has a direction... Lets say X=3. This gives us a straight line but if we look at it from the perspective of the 1st dimension it is EVERYTHING. There is no such thing as X=2 as far as X=3 is concerned...

Its only when we introduce the 2nd dimension that the 1st dimension exists in more than just one thing. Now we have X=2, X=3, X=4.5, X=<infinate>. Its the "WIDTH" that allows us to now say something like X+Y=3.

So as far as the 2nd dimension is concerned it "CONTAINS" a 1st dimension... That doesn't mean that the 1st dimension exists purely in and of itself... that ALL matter has 1 of its 3 sides in the "SAME DIMENSION". What it means is that for each 2nd dimension there exists inside it 2 1st dimensions...

Now lets look at the 3rd dimension. Inside it there are 1st dimensions and 2nd dimensions... OR there are 3 1st dimensions.. Basically one contains the other.

Now lets add Time. The 4th dimension. For each existance of a point in the 4th dimension there is a fully complete set of the 1st 3 dimensions.

Are you starting to get the picture now?

So lets just say that quarks naturally exist in the 5th dimension. With US being in the 3rd dimension, and activated by the 4th dimension (without time we would be static), we don't see these Quarks because they exist outside of what we know and can see.

[Example : You are a 2-dimensional being. You look around you and see nothing. Suddenly a hole appears infront of you out of nowhere!!!! What you don't realise is that this "hole" was created by a person sticking a pencil THROUGH a sheet of paper. because the 2-d being cannot "see" the 3rd dimension of "depth" he cannot see the pencil coming... he can only see the END RESULT]

So something happens that causes these Quarks in the 5th dimension to form a CONNECTION to our 3rd dimension... a union of 3. Perhaps together they set up a resonance wave that draws them into the 3rd dimension.. or perhaps it is an "echo" of their existance in the 5th dimension...

Either way they are not anywhere we can see or tell because we are limited to be beings that exist in only the first 4 dimensions...

Does that make sense now?

Gen-X

So technically, if there was so much light in a small room, I would be unable to enter it because there is too much light?

Meg, if you would open that door you would be burned into ashes.

What's "Quarks"?

Thanks for explaining what a Dimension is, now go and look it up, what you're describing is a space(a special type of Group)
.
a space is a set of points, one of them is the Origin.and an addition operator. we define a space as N-Space if you Need at least N Real Numbers to Identify a point, ie we live in 3Space we need 3 real Numbers to Identify a point in our space, given that an origin is defined.

Now We imagine your "5th Dimension" ie a 5Space we Define

O our Origin
X,Y,Z,T and Q four points in our 5Space

sutch that the Vectors OX,OY,OZ,OT and OQ are orthogonal and of the same modulus

we define the point (x,y,z,t,q) as O + x(OX) + y(OY) + z(OZ) + t(OT) + q(OQ)

(Basicly 5D space with its Dimensions called X,Y,Z,T and Q)

a Subspace is a Space contained within a Space, so that the 2 spaces both have the same origin

our universe is the subspace q = 0 ie every point that can be reached from the origin without moving iin the Q direction,

What we call "Now" is the subspace q = t = 0 ie every point that can be reached moving only in the X,Y and Z directions. T is our Time dimension

OK now we know what we're talking about. you were saying a quark is a line through this 5Space and for some reason it can only exist in our 4Space if it is a group of 3.

This Means that There is something special about our 4Space which I kinda object to. it also Implies that there is something special about all the points and directions in our 3space.


There's a load of things you'd have to fix about quarks and this 5th dimension, They'd have to be wierd shapes, they can only rotate about an axix R + lamdaQ (a line in the Q direction), It makes for a lot of extra rules governing these things, and in physics we like less rules.

For the love of @#(*$&(*&^ @#$ *(@#&$

Sam... WAKE THE HELL UP!!!!


I am NOT Talking about a "Space".. I am NOT talking about the mathematical RULES for Geometry.

Why can you NOT get out of your head the use of mathematics in this!?!??!


Read my example regarding the figure in 2D and the Pencil coming from 3D.


Explain to me using your Mathematical Geometry how this would work?

Explain how the 2D figure could NOT see the pencil coming?

And then explain to me why it is so hard for you to understand that something in a dimension "ABOVE" ours (which has the ability to intersect) is beyond our viewing and requires so much "complexity"?

Is it because it doesn't fit neatly into your mathematical equations? Because it doesn't MATCH your Geometrical calculations?

I have already proved to you beyond ALL doubt that Maths is flawed.

1 + 1 = 2

1 lump of clay + 1 lump of clay = 1 BIGGER lump of clay


MATHS DOES NOT WORK IN THE REAL WORLD SO STOP BLOODY WELL USING IT

It makes some nice estimations, we build rules INTO mathematics that explains phenomenons, we can even "approximate" some mathematical equations to explain velocity, gravitational pull, acceleration, Work, Torque... WHATEVER!!! But all of them are FIXED examples that CANNOT have outside influences...

Its like building a tower out of playing cards... It can be done when you are sitting in a nice quiet and closed of room but try to do it in the real world and it will never work.

*I'M* talking about the real world here Sam... If you want to talk about the imaginary world of Mathematics then please go and talk about it elsewhere...

WE are NOT on the same wavelength.

Quote:

---

1 + 1 = 2

1 lump of clay + 1 lump of clay = 1 BIGGER lump of clay

---

You're wrong Gen-X! 1 lump of clay + 1 lump of clay is always 2 lumps of clay, never a bigger lump of clay.
The "+" doesn't mean you have to move those clay lumps together because then you need space to do it, and time to have it done on. Consider math to solve this also.

Quote:

---

MATHS DOES NOT WORK IN THE REAL WORLD SO STOP BLOODY WELL USING IT

---

MATH WORKS JUST PERFECT IN THE REAL WORLD BECAUSE WHAT WE SEE AS "REAL" IS JUST WHAT APPLIES IN MATH. THAT'S WHAT MAKES MATH RELIABLE.

And you're certainly not talking about Real world, because you know nothing about it. Just changing the definition of "real" to REAL here. so don't mix it up.

I'm going to put those definitions here so that we all can agree on them:

"Real", Real - What we "know" or actually believe that it is real. The subjective vision by humans and science.
REAL! - The actual Real, the actual truth, that is what's is objective truth to everything both inside and outside all universes.

What do you mean Maths can't describe the situation, you can't describe the situation without maths, that's where you're going wrong. Maths describes perfectly why the Idea of quarks only existing in another dimension makes for some ideas which go against the grain of normal physics. you've decided on the existance of this 5th Dimension but you seem to have no Idea how it works. something like this is where you need maths because you can't picture 5 dimensions without it. now stop, think, and you'll see why the Idea of this 5th dimension is unlikley.

Sam

Answer me this :

Man in 2D world suddenly sees a hole open up in front of him. Because he is in 2D and NOT in 3D he could not see the pencil coming in from "DEPTH".

Explain that mathematically and I *might* listen to what you have to say.

Kedaman

Your not thinking are you...

The whole idea of the "+" is that you no longer have 2 numbers... If I were to use YOUR idea of what the plus symbol meant I would do

1 + 1 = 1 + 1

Because I have 2 objects on the left and 2 objects on the right.

The whole USE of plus is because :

1 + 1 = 2

2 objects on the left and ONE object on the right.

Thats the concept of addition...

Now if we were to assign something like X and say that X = mass we get

1x + 1x = 2x

1 lump of clay + 1 lump of clay = 1 bigger lump of clay (or 2 lumps of clay)

Wow! Suddenly maths holds up... why? Because we have DEFINED everything there is to define.

But PURE maths... 1 + 1 = 2... It only exists in a non-real, controlled and bland environment.

THAT is what you can't use it in the real world.. because with Maths you have to assign every factor involved... and we know in the real world that is NOT possible.

It is the WHOLE BLOODY reason why Maths cannot and will NEVER be able to predict lotto numbers.... because it cannot count, quantify or qualify all of the factors involved in them bouncing.

Why can't you accept that?

Gen-x, math is math, not what you think it is.

Quote:

---

1 + 1 = 2

2 objects on the left and ONE object on the right.

Thats the concept of addition...

---

No that's not the concept of addition, [i] in math [i/]
That's the concept of equation, while addition is just a operation.
Try in immediate window:

Code:

---

?(1+1=2)    'An equation
True
?(1+1=1+1)  'Also an equation
True
?(1+1)      'Calculation of an equation: x=(1+1) -> x=2
 2

---

And you see what i mean.

Quote:

---

Wow! Suddenly maths holds up... why? Because we have DEFINED everything there is to define.

But PURE maths... 1 + 1 = 2... It only exists in a non-real, controlled and bland environment.

THAT is what you can't use it in the real world.. because with Maths you have to assign every factor involved... and we know in the real world that is NOT possible.

It is the WHOLE BLOODY reason why Maths cannot and will NEVER be able to predict lotto numbers.... because it cannot count, quantify or qualify all of the factors involved in them bouncing.

Why can't you accept that?

---

Actually i don't accept it, but you're forcing me to define two types of math:
General math - Calculations where all possible factors are involved
Classical math - Calculation where all relevant factors are involved
Also you're involving physics (the lumps of clay and lotto numbers) and the then we need to declare phycal calculations the in the same way. But the most horrible thing you're doing is involving religion (lotto numbers) the way universe works is nothing but you're beliefs: If universe is random, there's probably only probability calculations that gives results, and that's also math. So, Gen-x You can't have a world without math.

Right. I am back tracking here a bit, but i have only just realised that Gen-X has been allowed to get away with some sweeping statements that are way off the mark.

Quote:

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LENGTH
This dimension doesn't really exist as far as we are concerned... its kind of imaginary. Its a vector and it has a direction... Lets say X=3. This gives us a straight line but if we look at it from the perspective of the 1st dimension it is EVERYTHING. There is no such thing as X=2 as far as X=3 is concerned...

Its only when we introduce the 2nd dimension that the 1st dimension exists in more than just one thing. Now we have X=2, X=3, X=4.5, X=<infinate>. Its the "WIDTH" that allows us to now say something like X+Y=3.

---

What is this? I really can't believe this one got past everyone. I really though you had more brains than this Gen-X. Especially as you have the gall to ridicule people over little mistakes they have made.

I agree with you that Length (now referred to as x) is a vector. It can have a value of anything from -Infinity to +Infinity. What i do not agree with is the rest of the statement. I am now talking in strictly 1D. If x=3, there still exists x=2, x=-10 and x=n.

Let me try and explain. x, as you stated is a straight line. This does not stop x having an infinite number of points on the line. Imagine a being living on this 1D world, albeit a very flat, thin, bored being. This being can exist any where along this line. If x somehow is limited from 0 - 3, then the being can exist at the points x=0, x=1, x=2, x=3. Other wise how could more than one thing exist in this world. If x=3 and only 3, then no other beings can live in this world.

Code:

---

x =            0 1 2 3        If x =              3
1D world      _ _ _ _        Gen-X's 1D world    _
Being          . .  .        Being              .

---

By your reasoning, a 2D(x,y) world will only allow you to have an Infinite number of points for x, and 1 point for y. How do i come to this conclusion, becuse there is no third dimension to contain the y dimnsion.

I can prove this wrong now. Imagine the screen you are reading this on is flat. There is, depending on your resolution, 800 possible positions for x and 600 for y. In Gen-X's 2D world you would be seeing a very thin line going across the screen. Going back to 1D if we remove y, we would have 800 positions for x.



Or even worse, this follows on from his reasoning in the quote above, and he chops and changes his mind over whether the 2nd dimension contains the 1st, or the 2nd dimension is just two 1st dimensions.

Quote:

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So as far as the 2nd dimension is concerned it "CONTAINS" a 1st dimension... That doesn't mean that the 1st dimension exists purely in and of itself... that ALL matter has 1 of its 3 sides in the "SAME DIMENSION". What it means is that for each 2nd dimension there exists inside it 2 1st dimensions...

---

So a 2D world is just two of the first dimsnsions put together. Well by your last bit of logic, this will mean that there is still only 1 point in this world. Lets assume that x=3 and y=4. This would be the only point of existence in Gen-X's 2D world, as each of the dimensions can only have one and only one value according to him.

Weird. I don't like the sound of your world very much.

[Edited by Iain17 on 05-19-2000 at 04:00 PM]

Quote:

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Answer me this :

Man in 2D world suddenly sees a hole open up in front of him. Because he is in 2D and NOT in 3D he could not see the pencil coming in from "DEPTH".

Explain that mathematically and I *might* listen to what you have to say.

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Oh For *****S Sake

no I can't explain this in maths, of course I can't, There is and can be one reason and one reason only why your 2D man can't see the pencil, It's because you decided he couldn't, that's not a math's reason. You give me a single example of something that lives in 2D space and Can't see in a 3rd dimension and I'll tell you why it can't using maths.

(I can describe the situation mathemeticly, I'm not going to because I have already and clearly you didn't understand it, but all I can say is that for some reason your man can only observe points in his subspace and not those points in the 3space in which his subspace is contained which are outside his subspace)

Now You answer me this without using maths.

What Does the statement "We Live in 3 Dimensional Space." mean?

Now I want a full explanation, If you use the terms length breadth and height I want to know what those mean, if you use the Idea of an Area or a volume I'd like to know what you mean By those. Remember, I only understand maths, so If you use a term and don't define it, i'm gonna look at it as a mathematical Idea.

Quote:

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Answer me this :

Man in 2D world suddenly sees a hole open up in front of him. Because he is in 2D and NOT in 3D he could not see the pencil coming in from "DEPTH".

Explain that mathematically and I *might* listen to what you have to say

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I'll do it for him.

First we need to define some values and rules.

x = co-ordinate where length starts
y = co-ordinate where width starts
z = co-ordinate where depth starts
b2 = 2 dimensional being
p3 = 3 dimensional pen


2 dimensional world :
x can be -ve Infinity to +ve Infinity
y can be -ve Infinity to +ve Infinity
z does not exist. but for reference to 3D world z will be 0 and only zero.

3 dimensional world :
x can be -ve Infinity to +ve Infinity
y can be -ve Infinity to +ve Infinity
z can be -ve Infinity to +ve Infinity


A 2 dimensional being (b2) exists at point :
x=1
y=1
and z = 0 for ref.

A 3 dimensional pen (p3) exists at
x=2
y=2
z = 3


At this point in time b2 can not see p3 because two z's do not match. Remember z doesn't really exist in the 2D world. b2 can only see things if it's z property = 0.

At a later point in time the co-ordinates of the pen changes to.
x=2
y=2
z = 0

Now b2 can see p3, but only that bit of p3 that exists at z=0. The rest of the p3 does not exist for b2.


Maybe an english explanation of the above will help. Imagine the 2 dimensional being as existing at the corner of a piece of paper. His world is the paper and only the paper. He can not see above or below the paper, only along it. Now hold a pencil above the paper. The 2 dimensional being can not see the pencil becuse it is not in his world. Now push the pencil through the paper. Not all the way through just so it is halfway. Now what the 2 dimensional being can see is the outside of a cross section of the pencil . Nothing more, nothing less.


I hope this is clear for everybody.

[Edited by Iain17 on 05-19-2000 at 06:03 PM]

iain

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What is this? I really can't believe this one got past everyone. I really though you had more brains than this Gen-X. Especially as you have the gall to ridicule people over little mistakes they have made.

I agree with you that Length (now referred to as x) is a vector. It can have a value of anything from -Infinity to +Infinity. What i do not agree with is the rest of the statement. I am now talking in strictly 1D. If x=3, there still exists x=2, x=-10 and x=n.

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I must correct you for missunderstanding what Gen-x was babling about (and he was babling about pure math, and for some reason no one did notice that:))
1. What was mentioned: X is the length and if we extract x=3 as a dimension, we would have to range this dimension in ie:y values from -I to +I, so Xdimension is actually a range in y.
2. what you got wrong: was mixing up x dimension and y values.
3. As the rest of your post was based on this, i think you got it all wrong.
gen-x

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Man in 2D world suddenly sees a hole open up in front of him. Because he is in 2D and NOT in 3D he could not see the pencil coming in from "DEPTH".

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There's no connection between two different dimensioned worlds in reality. Any dimensions extraction from reality will create a lack of physical competense and will only work as a mathematical projection. As for the 5th dimensions not being seen by us, by removing our existance from it will remove us from all dimensions within the 5d world. So you'r theory doesn't make sence.


iain

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I hope this is clear for everybody.

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Of course it is, but you're eplaining a mathematical theory NOT REFERING TO reality.

Kedaman
THANK YOU!

You are obviously seeing this clearly.

Iian

Read what Ked said... X=3 is a dimension in itself, you cannot have a "POINT" on the line X=3 because that would mean you are NOT in the 1st dimension but actually in the 2nd Dimension... The whole reason why those in the 1st do NOT have y values.

Are you understanding this now?

If not then I suggest you throw maths away because like Sam it is your own pre-conceptions that everything in our REAL world is based on mathematics that is blinding your clarity.

Your comment on "The z values not being equal" is complete garbage. A 2D being DOES NOT HAVE A Z!!!!! ****, its 2D so it only has an X and a Y.

BUT!!!

The 3D person has a method of being able to "intersect" with the 2D because that specific 2D equates to the 3D space where Z=0. THAT is why the pencil can intersect the 2D being... and THAT is what the 2D being cannot see it.

Maths has no way of showing this and it falls apart completely because it BACKTRACKS to give other dimensions a width and a depth that it doesn't exactly have.

Sam

Funny that you cannot explain it using maths... I guess that proves my point perfectly.

As for me explaining to you using PURE maths... I can't!!! Thats my whole frikken point!!! YOU CANT USE PURE MATHS TO SHOW THINGS IN THE REAL WORLD.

[Edited by Gen-X on 05-21-2000 at 09:08 PM]

I agree with you Gen-X but one more thing. There are no 2d beings. And of course how do you know we are 4d beings in a 5d world?

I guess you're just talking math yourself.

Gen-x

[qoute]
ny that you cannot explain it using maths... I guess that proves my point perfectly.

As for me explaining to you using PURE maths... I can't!!! Thats my whole frikken point!!! YOU CANT USE PURE MATHS TO SHOW THINGS IN THE REAL WORLD.
[/quote]

did you read my post.

1 Your question

I can't answer this question at all because it's a stupid question and has no answer.


2 My Question

I didn't ask you you explain anything with maths, I asked you to explain without maths.






Lets look at your question

Quote:

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Man in 2D world suddenly sees a hole open up in front of him. Because he is in 2D and NOT in 3D he could not see the pencil coming in from "DEPTH".

Explain that mathematically and I *might* listen to what you have to say.

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for a start I'd like to know how he sees the hole, or what the hole is in, I'd assume you mean he lives on a piece of paper and can only see the surface of that paper, and you are asking me why he can only see the surface of the paper???

Thats like asking why elves can't climb trees, elves don't exist, neither does your man, the only reason they can't climb trees is because it's assumed in the question.

Now, My question again (and read it this time)

What does it mean when I say "We Live in 3 Dimensional Space"?

No Don't use maths, and I don't want some arbitrary definition like "It takes at least four walls to bound an object in 3 dimensions" because I could give you all sorts of spaces where you need at least 4 walls to bound an object.

I want to know what it means.

Kedaman

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I agree with you Gen-X but one more thing. There are no 2d beings. And of course how do you know we are 4d beings in a 5d world?

I guess you're just talking math yourself.

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Sam

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Thats like asking why elves can't climb trees, elves don't exist, neither does your man, the only reason they can't climb trees is because it's assumed in the question.

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I though the point of this thread was a discussion on our individual beliefs on various topics. I personally thought that using examples to help explain a concept was a perfectly legitimate way of furthering a discussion. I was obviously wrong.


If we are going to start resorting to the above, then prove this wrong.

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We ourselves do not exist in the sense that we are human beings. We are all just a brain living in a bucket in outer space, imagining all that is going on.;)

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*Sigh* Back to explaining One Dimensional space.

Gen-X

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Read what Ked said... X=3 is a dimension in itself, you cannot have a "POINT" on the line X=3 because that would mean you are NOT in the 1st dimension but actually in the 2nd Dimension... The whole reason why those in the 1st do NOT have y values.

Are you understanding this now?

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No is the simple answer. Maybe i am not grasping what you mean by X=3, or maybe you did not actually READ my explanation. If you are saying that X=3, and only 3 then i get what you are saying. There is only one "POINT" on this line.

However, there is no reason why X should be limited to 3. As i stated earlier X can have an infinite number of points. I never referred to a Y value. I don't need one to describe any point on X. All i need is X=?. Look no Y value is ever referenced and i can accurately locate any "POINT" on this line with this formulae.



*Bigger Sigh* The 3D Pen and the 2D world. For the 3D pen to intersect the 2D world, the 2D world must be contained within the 3D world. Thus the 2D world can be assigned a Z value. Again i will try and explain.

Let us assume the 2D world can be infinitely long and infinitely wide. Agreed? It has no depth as such, but it can have a depth reference point in the 3D world that contains this 2D world. So what i am saying is that while it does not have a depth value, it can be assigned a depth co-ordinate, where the 2D world exists in the plane of the 3D worlds depth.

[Edited by Iain17 on 05-22-2000 at 05:05 PM]