For all the people that hate Microsoft

jdavison
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That is the best point you have made so far. I'm not saying vb is the ultimate language. but in most case it is the most efficient and effective way to do things.
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Erm... It certainly isn't the most "effective". That would be coding in machine language so that it runs as fast as possible.... and it certainly isn't really "efficient" as far as the end product goes although it IS efficient as far as the programming goes...

But what is more imporant? That it is easier to code or that it works better for the client?

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From a web developers perspective I have found it to be the best of the language for overall use.

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Huh!?!? What?!!? "web developers"!?!?!

VB as a web language is next to unknown. Yeah so they introduces web classes in VB, it is still restricted to environments that run WindowsNT and it is still restricted to those that have the VB runtimes installed. Over 3MB of information required just to get a tiny little CGI program running that says "Hello".

But then again you might be talking about "VBScript" done via Active Server Pages (ASP)... Different kettle of fish altogether as you can use PerlScript, Javascript (No not the client side but a cut down of Java similar to how VBScript is a cutdown of VB), and I believe coming soon PHPscript.

I have used ALL of these and I have to say that VB as a web language misses some very useful features such as associative arrays, proper CGI interface validation and a few other areas.... You can't beat Perl or PHP if you want to develop something that runs efficiently for an internet client... especially now that PHP v4 (Zend) is releasing a compiler that allows you to optimize the code and keep it private.

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I wont argue C++ and Java arent more powerful because they are but they are definately more complicated and more time consuming.

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Thats why they are used...

more time consuming for programmer = faster more efficient for client


Whenever a client asks me to provide a solution for something I have to weigh up how vital "speed" is to the project... what their priority on maintainability and adaptability is.... If they say speed isn't a vital issue (ie they aren't talking about sub-second running times for processes) and they want the ability to keep it updated and changing then I will recommend VB. If however they are talking about some process intensive system that requires the processing of MILLIONS of pieces of informations within seconds then I will recommend something like C.

I had a project once that had to import, sort and distribute 500MB of information that came from a single streamed source. They originally wrote this process using a 4GL that imported directly into a database... The last estimate they had was 57 ***DAYS*** to run to completion.

I re-wrote the code using GCC (on unix) and had it completing the entire process in the space of 2 hours and requiring an additional 4 hours for importing it directly into the database.

Sometimes things like C++ ARE needed... it isn't open and shut

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Feel sorry for you about having to deal with SQL Server 6.5 though I have to say it was not one of MS better products but after working with 7.0 and Oracle I think SQL server is the better way to go although Oracle has better error handling. Good luck on your project, I can sympathize.

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I have to admit... I dont like the interface on 7.0... its too "Access" for my liking. Its like they are trying to turn SQL Server into a "user" application rather than a DBA or a Programmer interface... I only hope they make serious improvements with SQL Server 2000 (fingers crossed)

You would be suprised how often VB is used in web development. Most of our com objects are written in VB and our asp pages are written with VB script. It runs great. Yes its true that it runs in an NT enviroment only but Every developmnet project I have seen has been in NT and we constantly use COM objects. Vb script is not that much different than VB itself as far as the the syntax they are almost Identical. Most companies now seem to want to stay away from CGIs and java applets. We do use java too but it is more time consuming to write alot of functions and VB is the most efficient language in alot of cases.

[Edited by jdavison on 06-19-2000 at 11:25 AM]

jdavison

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You would be suprised how often VB is used in web development.

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Actually I wouldn't be surprised but I think you are failing to understand the nature of the internet.

As I said before... the MAJORITY of the internet runs on linix and unix... NOT WindowsNT.

So this means the MAJORITY of the web development is done using perl, php rather than ASP.

I would agree that most Windows-based-internet-development is done using VB (or more correctly VBScript) but that is mainly because the Web Servers are mostly IIS which funny enough is Microsoft.

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Most of our com objects are written in VB and our asp pages are written with VB script. It runs great. Yes its true that it runs in an NT enviroment only but Every developmnet project I have seen has been in NT and we constantly use COM objects.

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Isn't that EXACTLY what I said above????
I would assume that the development projects you worked on were either mostly INTRANET or specifically commercial with a requirement to interface with existing business data processes. In this case they would be mostly WinNT and probably require VB because most business RUN on a Windows platform.

But again don't confuse that 10% with the entire internet development spectrum which again does NOT use WindowsNT.... hence my questioning of the term "web development"

Maybe you need to see more of the internet world to understand this.

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Vb script is not that much different than VB itself as far as the the syntax they are almost Identical. Most companies now seem to want to stay away from CGIs and java applets. We do use java too but it is more time consuming to write alot of functions and VB is the most efficient language in alot of cases.

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Perhaps I didn't make it clear enough. I do a lot of contracting for the government, development both in pure VB and with VBScript on ASP to interface with everything from MS Word to SQL Server and back again.... "Most Companies" are talking about a specific type of company and corporate one at that... the "main" area where contractors like myself end up working...

I also do some internet work on the side... developing CGI for Internet Service Providers and companies that are "not-so-corporate" which funny enough make up the LARGE majority of the content on the internet. None of them use WindowsNT... in fact most Internet Service Providers will attempt to steer clear of NT because of its inherent security problems and lack of ability to be "tweeked" sufficiently. Also... to get an ISP running on WindowsNT means you have to keep purchasing more and more software from M$ to be able to do all the tasks you want.

I have seen both sides of the industry... I am thinking that perhaps you have never actually seen this other side and hence your belief that "Most Companies" are keeping away from CGI....

The clear disproof of that is the fact that PHP4 is becoming one of the most widely used internet languages, Perl is still running stronger than ever, MySQL is still the most widely used internet Database and companies software like Apache, Linux and the like is selling RAMPANTLY more than WindowsNT is in the internet market.

Don't confuse Companies that require a webpage with those who have an "intranet" with those who try to do business on the internet.

I have CGI work coming out of my ears from companies (smaller ones) who simply cannot find people who have the skills to be able to make it work.

I mean have a look at this website... What do you think the "showthread.php" was written in!?!?!?!? And this is a VB site? Surely if it was so much better etc then you would see "showthread.asp"

I rest my case ;)

You rest nothing! Here is the idiot that made fun of my fictional member name. At least, I don't have a name that is slang for a b**ch! Genital-X chromosomes.

Ok for fast web servers unix is the go. However NT servers are catching up, and with the next generation of MS products will overtake unix.

We are in the process of sourcing a Unix box to host our web stuff...because unix rocks for web processing. Hmmmm will probably have to adopt either Java or the Delphi clone to get full ecommerce going.

Have I done something to you that I am not aware of or is it just because I disagree with you on some issue. Every time I say anything your quick to jump all over it like you know everything which you don't so give it up. I do realize that most ISPs use unix but from a COMMERCIAL prespective(since I need to be specific) most development is done for an NT enviroment. Nasa is even running asp code. As I stated before, VB is not the ultimate programming language but it has its benefits. But then again, unless I agree with you, I dont know what I am talking about do I. I am sure you'll change what I have said to make your point seem more valid as you have taken everything I say out of context.

Don't bother with that idiot JDavison! He needs help because have you noticed he always want to win.

You should change your name to Quote Idiot

jdavison

I agree with you... but I did say that it was only commercially that your statement holds.

Whats the problem with that? Are you so far above being corrected? Would you prefer to wallow in misinformation?

I agree with you completely that commercial web development is mainly NT.. In fact I said that in my post...obviously you are starting to miss what I write.

Wolfman

Are you really so pathetic as to believe you can taunt me into retallitory swearing and offense throwing?

The last time I saw someone attempt something like that was a 4 year old boy....

You remind me very much of him... Enjoy your childhood

Wolfman

Maybe ya could have an arguement with my four year old son. What a waste of posts

jdavison

Maybe if your post were more accurate then Gen-X wouldn't attack them.

I disagree..the last three web servers we have installed have all been linux boxes. Sure Microsoft will eventually dominate with NT/ASP/XML, but there are a large number of sites companies which have no foot in the MS world....

Have formed own company, and yes we will be using UNIX for Web deployment...till Vis Studio 7 anyway

Oh no its Batman.......am tracking you dude. Following you back to your home page. Hmmmm.....Wolfman seems like the type of block you would be great mates with..

Remember am getting closer to your lair.

Yes but you have to ask yourself a question Batman...

"Would you dance with the devil by the pale moonlight?"

Maybe you should go back to playing with your Nintendo. And we are tracking you.......hmmmm....actually my four year old is probably a bit too smart for you guys and would get bored with the level of conversation.

And no am not trying to project your style.....that would involve complete loss of all abilities on the keyboard...

Any way back to commercial coding..........been fun......but more challenges await on other sites

Lets just say that I am the Azrael of the group and give me a little space *WG*

Don't even think about that batman

As soon as Batman hits the thread all meaningful debate ends. Sorry wont incite him/her/it in the future.

People be nice to each other in here, Batman will be erase soon if he keeps this up.. I know cause I'm TMoles work collegue and next of kin.

Surrender Jetho, for the good of humaninty and this forum..He killed my collegue TesticleMole.

Ok as said above have given up inciting the Bat....only encourages him......will fire a last cone for Testicle...


Zej.....your right about those who hate Microsoft...which was the thread starter in the first place.....

Logging off to score

I think we need a Bat BarBQ;)

Batman

Sorry, I have not been around much. I didn't read your earlier threads because I usually read the last message in the thread and post my thoughts towards that.

Microsoft has its problems. However, without MS, most people would not even own a computer today. Myself, I started out on an Apple IIe and went to a tandy with DOS 1. Don't laugh, I was in my early teens back then. I have a lot of respect for what MS has accomplished however I am VERY disappointed in how they went about doing it. Intimidation is never a good business practice. For the amount of bugs and problems that MS has, it charges about 75% too much for their products. But the suckers are the ones who actually pay their extortionist prices. Personally, I have gotten quite functional with Linux. And havent paid for a MS product in years. :p

Think about it for a second...

Imagine a world where Bill Gates did NOT steal a Disk Operating System and approach IBM selling it to them as his own....

Imagine MeSsy-DOS never being used as the platform for IBM (who was the largest manufacturers of PC's at the time I think).

MS-Dos never got used, so things weren't FORCED to be backwards compatible... Companies like Apple, Xerox, Commodore who each had GUI interfaces well BEFORE IBM ever truely released Windows having a larger share, more profit etc...

Imagine then that these companies grew large enough basing their future releases not on being FORCED to be backwards compatible or with the terrible philosophy of making it too expensive to change over, but instead basing their future releases on their own merrits (The Amiga had a graphics chipset years ahead of its time but couldn't release it because of costs and a dwindling market share).

We might not have MS today, we might not have Windows... but instead we might have products that are more user friendly, more flexible and a lot more robust.

The 3.5" floppy disk for instance.... On a MS-DOS PC it can only store 1.44MB of data... The same disk on an Apple Mac can store 1.66MB or data and on an Amiga it could store 1.86MB of data.... This in itself is proof of how inefficient MS were... they placed a second FAT table on every piece of media they formatted... duplicated every directory read/write from this second FAT table and yet NEVER truely used it for any significant purpose because if the primary because corrupted you couldn't even FIND the second one to make use of it.

I think the world would have been a lot more advanced if MS hadn't taken the share of the market it did, killed off competition and used a ruthless FORCEFULL tactic to gain business instead of letting its products stand for themselves.

What do you guys think about C# (C Sharp) ???

http://msdn.microsoft.com/vstudio/ne...sharpintro.asp

It'll be in the next version of Visual Studio, It's based on C/C++ but fixed up, not as messy as C++.

It's said that it will be RAD like VB to bring productivity levels up on a lower level language. I think it's looks like it'll be worth at least trying out. Value and Reference Variable types are pre-set so there will be no int pointers, just array, object and string type pointers.

No screen shots yet unfortunately but the language syntax is released.

I'll definately have a play with it. (especially if next version VB still can't static link and C# can)

Two things to consider when people talk about how stable the Mac OS is . . .

First, how many third party hardware vendors does Mac have to coordinate with to get things in line for a new release of their OSes???

Now, just try to imagine the logistics involved when Microsoft coordinates a release of Windows!!! The PC is the only game in town for most of the hardware vendors out there, and when Win X comes out, there will be thousands of drivers on that CD from hundreds of companies. It's amazing that all this hardware works with the operating system as often as it does and it's this huge sea of choices that we have on the PC that makes Windows the place to be!

Second, can anyone count as high as there are software titles available for the PC? Just think about all that freaking software that has to co-exist peacefully in your registry. When you're cursing at the Blue Screen of Death, I hope you realize that it's just as likely to be sloppy code in the program you were running or software that you uninstalled that didn't properly cleanup after itself that made you crash as it is something that Windows did to you.

I'm not saying that we should be so grateful to Microsoft that we should tolerate these occasional crashes that we have to deal with in the Windows world, but I have a feeling that as maniacal as Microsoft is about annihilating the competition, the more they hear about people going over to Linux because of the stability it provides, the more they'll work to tighten the code.

Going back to the comparison of Mac vs. Windows, in all fairness, it is true that the gap in hardware availability is becoming less and less of an issue as USB becomes more and more popular. It's also true that the Mac users have their PC emulation software, but that just seems kind of pathetic. If I want to run Windows software, I'd rather just buy a PC. On the low end, I can buy myself a very functional PC for under $500 (with a monitor.) How much Mac can you get for $500? On the high end, PCs offer processors running at 1 GHz, and there's two companies making those processors, battling for your business.

Hey, it's Bill's world and I enjoy hanging with the 90%.

mikeycorn

Do we think that if Jobs (& Co.) had got to IBM first, he would not have done same with Apple as Gates (& Co.) has done with MS - yeah right. Or that Parc weren't aiming for IBM anyway?

THIS IS SUCH A MOOT ARGUMENT.

We have witnessed some fledgeling industries hatch and grow. As with others, they will change and transform from there current incarnation. Market forces got us to where we are now and will ultimatley take us forward.

Does that take away my freedom to dislike them does it?

Nah. Knock yourself out!

;-)

I think the whole monopoly thing with microsoft is pretty crappy, but you have to admit that if MS had never got themseleves into such a strong market position, someone else would have.

think of all the companies that have fallen by the wayside. we could all be complaining about a company who behaves worse and releases worse products.

at least with MS we know what products we are getting, we know they expensive and that they will often be buggy, but what software isn't? (not mine that's for sure!)

we also know that the products will work as we want them to without too much messing around, and that ANYONE can learn how to use them.

Where will Microsoft be posting the source code to Windows?

They'll probably post it on Apple's website. God knows they're not using it for anything constructive!

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First, how many third party hardware vendors does Mac have to coordinate with to get things in line for a new release of their OSes???

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Actually NONE

Because Apple do it the "smart" way... They get the third party hardware vendors to CONFORM to the protocols, and if they don't conform then they don't get the ability to have their hardware run on the platform.

This ensures consistency, modularity and fewer hassles.

Same goes for Software... ALL software on a Mac has to meet a requirement before it can be released (excluding small people hacking) which means the software will NOT interfere with anything else because that has been checked.

Windows on the other hand says "Go for it everyone, all jump in, do it your own way, clash and fight and bash anything you like"... and when it all falls in a heap they point the finger at someone else.

It was this "no-holds-barred" approach that got the PC and Microsoft in the position they are today...because any cheap hack could knock off a PC based on the schematics without following all the rules... so people were "duped" into bying machines that were NOT 100% IBM compatible. They flooded the market with cheap and nasty products until they reached a point where it was out there so much you couldn't get rid of it if you tried...

Now it is biting them in the ass... Now the original concept has reached such a size that more and more things don't fit, don't work together... my printer driver interfers with my modem, or my scanner interferes with my printer... these programs won't work together, those aren't compatible, upgrade this, patch that.... Lets make 2 different types of Windows 95/98 and NT... Oh now lets drag them together (Windows2000)... Lets stop supporting Win3.1, now lets dump Win95... now lets force everyone to use Windows2000 and make it stop a lot of other software from working.

The amount of work that has been created as a result of MS products not doing what they were supposed to, or CHANGING how they did what they were supposed to has cost companies BILLIONS of dollars.

I should know... I'm the one called in to fix all these problems. You write code to interface with Project98 and then find the object model for Project2000 is completely different (re-write), Word2000 again is completely different (already re-written when they stopped supporting wordbasic)..... And the list goes on

Hey Gen-X,

Speaking of stuff not working, I wanted to check out your website, and in the bottom left corner it said it was detecting my browser, then I got this message:

The page you are looking for cannot be displayed because the address is incorrect.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Please try the following:

If you typed the page address in the Address bar, check that it is entered correctly.

Open the gen-x.iweb.net.au home page and then look for links to the information you want.
Click Search to look for information on the Internet.



HTTP 405 - Resource not allowed
Internet Explorer
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

(I've got IE 5.0 by the way.)


I do enjoy reading your posts but I've been around long enough to see how far computers have come since I was a 13 year-old punk in 1982. I think Microsoft and the PC monopoly have been a good thing for us all. Hell, if the hardware and software on PCs were as tightly integrated as they are on the Mac, you'd be out a job! You should be praising my man, Mr. Gates.



mikeycorn

Yeah I know... The ISP I go through are merging with another and so they are in what they call "a transition".

Grrr.. Wish they would have told me they were going to disable PHP and all other CGI before they just did it :(

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Originally posted by MerlinZG
They'll probably post it on Apple's website. God knows they're not using it for anything constructive!

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Why would they post it on Apple's site? When you look at all of this, it's really unfair.

If anyone here has seen Monty Python's "The Life Of Brian", then they'll know what I'm referring to. In a way, M$ is like the Romans - not particularly well liked, but they gave a truckload of useful stuff to ungrateful people. Personally, I think M$ has made some good things (like Visual Studio), and some bad things (like _some_ of Windows). Whatever the DOJ say, Microsoft has done far more good than harm to the PC industry. Apple may complain, but they're the ones who tried to keep it to themselves, where Microsoft a) licensed their software to others, b) opened up the APIs, and c) made the OS customisable. Yeah, I know, it took till 1996 to get it sorted, but with the Microsoft/Intel partnership, the consumer wins a lot of the time. Having used many OS's (DOS, Windows 9x, Windows NT, MacOS, Linux, RISC OS), I can honestly say that Windows is definitely the biggest and most sprawling, and many people complain about it. But if you look at what it provides the developer (millions of hooks into everything) then it is a lot better than many of the others. Linux is technically better IMHO, but it has a long way to go before it has the same ease-of-use as Windows.

I like your way of thinking Parksie. Especially about the romans.

Megatron: I was simply trying to be sarcastic. :) In other words, Microsoft could post on Apple's website because Apple doesn't use it for anything constructive and is just taking up space. IMOHO. :)

The main reason I dislike Microsoft is the way they conduct business. Yes competition is good that is why I do not understand anyone that likes how MS did business.

Anytime a company started making something that might compete Microsoft did one of two things. If it was a very small startup they just bought them out. If it was a company unwilling to sell then they refused to give the software the "Windows Seal of Approval". End users tended to buy things that had that "WSOA" on the box.

If I recall all I read right they even tried to buy out Netscape in the days of IE(1).

Then they started telling computer manufacturers "We are not going to sell you any OSes if you include Netscape on systems you build."

Let's face it I doubt OEM's could have sold alot switching to an OS that the end user would have little to no Applications for and if it was bought for a child no to very few games.

MS wouldn't of ever had a problem if they did not continually buy out smaller competition and try to stiff arm other companies into doing things the MS way or not doing them at all.

I realise some of the people reading this thread have the misconception that the OEMs were jealous of MS. Why would they be jealous of the company that made the OS that was on all the computers they sold? Answer they weren't. They did however, not like MS trying to force them into only bundling certain Apps on thier systems.

Sadil

P.S. Wolfman I would guess Gen-X is either short for Generation X or Gen-X is a fan of Marvel Comics so you might want to work on coming up with something insulting because your idea as to what it stands for was just sad.

Microsoft has the right to not sell their OS to any comapny they want. If they wanted to, they could agree not to sell their software to any company that does not use Microsoft products. This is right because they are the ones that had worked hard to produced the best selling OS in the world. The government has no right to tell Microsoft what to do with their software.

Regarding Microsoft buying out small companies, first, the companies are not obligated to sell themselves to Microsoft. It's their decision. Sure Microsoft will put a good price up, but that's call business. That's how they stop competiors. They are the most successful Computer business in the world.