aknisely is BANNED!

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Originally posted by The Hobo
Chill out buddy...

50,000 was the number of people working in the WTC on an average day. Why don't you not get your facts confused.

Fighting and killing doesn't justify anything, but there needs to be a means of action, for which diplomacy will not help. Otherwise our people will just continue to die.

While the US may be a propaganda machine, that does not mean that the Taliban are not, and I personally will not trust them on anything.

Can we not just have a civilized debate on these issues without blowing up and acting like complete idiots? It's a discussion. Not a personal attack.

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we humans can be civil?
wow something i havent seen

n e ways

ya lets have a discussion

i believe US got themselves into this
and by bombing afghanistan they are making it worse
regardless if they are super power

whats interesting about this war is
US doesnt know how they will fight back
(well they at least know afghan will not start launching rockets at US.. that should hint that they will find other means)

i personally am EXTREMELY pissed now that biochemical weapons can be directed at canada

yeah, good idea

but one last note, im not gettin my facts confused, they were saying 50,000 had died

U KNOW WHAT I MEAN!! the human population will devastated, and when i said "u", i should have said "the government" but i was on a rant and "u" is easier to type

and gasdrinker, i thought i told u 2 shut up, i dont know which SPECIFIC policies, but they keep stickin their nose in to further their image and make more money

u cant argue with that, its the truth

aight, enough of this

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Originally posted by kovan
how about arming Israel with f16's and other deadly weapons to be used on stone throwing palestinians

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The government of the United States is not responsible for restricting freedom of market capitalization. If Lockheed Martin wants to manufacture in or sell to nations other than the United States, why not? Also, are you familiar with the United States' foreign policy with the state of Israel?

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Originally posted by kovan
i personally am EXTREMELY pissed now that biochemical weapons can be directed at canada

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I'm pissed off that they're directed at anybody.

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Originally posted by kovan

i believe US got themselves into this
and by bombing afghanistan they are making it worse
regardless if they are super power

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Some course of action had to be taken though. 5000 lives just can't be taken like that. I'm not saying bombing was right. We don't even know who did this, although the US government claims to have full proof it was Osama.

I just wonder if this is a scapegoat to get at the Taliban and restore Afganistan.

Or maybe President Bush knew they would never be able to find out who did it so he placed the blaim to please American people.

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Originally posted by GasDrinker
The government of the United States is not responsible for restricting freedom of market capitalization. If Lockheed Martin wants to manufacture in or sell to nations other than the United States, why not? Also, are you familiar with the United States' foreign policy with the state of Israel?

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you cant be serious can you?
Lockhead Martin sells them to WHO they are told to sell to by the US gov't

i am familiar enough with the foreign policy to clearly see why US was a target

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Originally posted by ghost ryder
i dont know which SPECIFIC policies

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Well, the State Department probably has public documents concerning foreign policy online. If foreign policy is really an issue here, why not enlighten us a little?

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Originally posted by ghost ryder

but one last note, im not gettin my facts confused, they were saying 50,000 had died

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I guess that depends on the news agency. I never heard it mentioned on the station that I watch (I can't recall which one that was at the time). Places like FOX News and MSNBC are going to be more biased and jump to the gun easier than say CNN or places.

That's why a newspapers good. Althought you get them later and once a day, their information is more accurate because it's not on the spot, minute to minute reporting.

Lockheed Martin does not need to recieve instruction or permission from the Government of the United States. If Israel wants to buy a few F-16's, and Lockheed Martin wants to sell some F-16's, then an exchange takes place. There is little involvement from the Government of the United States, other than basic aviation transport and export of weapons law, for which Lockheed Martin likely has all the required permits and licenses.

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Originally posted by The Hobo


Some course of action had to be taken though. 5000 lives just can't be taken like that. I'm not saying bombing was right. We don't even know who did this, although the US government claims to have full proof it was Osama.

I just wonder if this is a scapegoat to get at the Taliban and restore Afganistan.

Or maybe President Bush knew they would never be able to find out who did it so he placed the blaim to please American people.

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let me get this straight
US treasures life.. they will do what ever it takes to protect their lives in a war..

Al Qaida members dont care if they die or not
they are willing to blow themselves up
i highly doubt US will win this war
at least not with bombing

if it was with mess destruction weapons
US would obviously win


i agree some action had to be taken for the lives of innocents
but i dont agree with bombing afghanistan
because it WILL make it worse

another point

if taliban doesnt care about its OWN people
how much more power does that give them to use what ever their imagination comes up with?

i am pissed, i thought i was safe in canada
that has taken on a new meaning

hobo, u hit the nail on the head right there

the taleban is a scapegoat, they have made up some bull**** proof, i think some of the evidence they had was a passport that survived the wreckage!! please, thats preposterous

and in the rent-a-car, why would the flight manual be in arabic, if they had been trained in the US, they would have known english, and why would their be a manual at all?? they have learned how 2 fly, the Qu'ran was just one last thing to really point the finger at the taleban

the US knew the ONLY way it could get usama is with a global alliance, and even then i think they wont get him, so they blamed this on him

my theory is that it is.......no, nevermind, i dont wanna start more arguments

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Originally posted by GasDrinker
Lockheed Martin does not need to recieve instruction or permission from the Government of the United States. If Israel wants to buy a few F-16's, and Lockheed Martin wants to sell some F-16's, then an exchange takes place. There is little involvement from the Government of the United States, other than basic aviation transport and export of weapons law, for which Lockheed Martin likely has all the required permits and licenses.

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interesting
how come Egypt and Jordan and few other countries cant buy the SAME f16's as Israel does
the ones Egypt and Jordan buy dont have long range missiles on them

Martin Co is controlled 100% by the gov

same goes for super computers
get real man

if US want bin laden
they will pay a HEAVY price for his head

we shall see what happens..

That could be for any number of reasons, probably because they don't wish to buy more expensive models of a particular aircraft, or they don't need long-range missiles. Egypt is somewhat on the impoverished side to afford expensive aircraft, not to mention the equipment and man-power needed to support them. Or you may be right, the government may have conditions preventing export of certain military hardware to certain countries. But remember, Israel is a much wealthier country than Jordan or Egypt.

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Originally posted by kovan
if US want bin laden
they will pay a HEAVY price for his head

we shall see what happens..

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What alternative do we have? You've stated so much that what we are doing is wrong. What should we do? Mourn our thousands dead?

Osama hates the US. He won't stop if we ignore him. Again, I ask: what should we do.

Ghost, don't even say diplomacy. That's proposterous. Kinda like my spelling talents.

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Originally posted by kovan


interesting
how come Egypt and Jordan and few other countries cant buy the SAME f16's as Israel does
the ones Egypt and Jordan buy dont have long range missiles on them

Martin Co is controlled 100% by the gov

same goes for super computers
get real man

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$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ is WHY $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

Buying an F-16 is not like going to a car lot and buying a Pickup Truck. If you want jets sure they'll sell you 125 at a few billion a pop. Then you have to fork over the cash to arm it. The US Gov Is not responsible for The Isralies getting the jetts. (arming them yes there resonsible)

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Originally posted by ghost ryder
GASDRINKER- SHUT UP *****, IM TALKING ABOUT AMERICA STICKIN ITS NOSE IN PLACES WHERE ITS NOT WANTED, READ MY ****IN POSTS AND YOU WILL SEE WHY THE ARABS ARE MAD AT THE USA

HOBO- PEOPLE WHO THINK IN THAT WAY ARE WHAT HAS CAUSED THIS, YEAH IF THEY LEVEL YOUR ENTIRE EAST COAST WITH ANTHRAX COZ U ATTACKED KABUL, WILL THAT BE VENGANCE THEN?? WILL THAT BE JUSTIFIED

THE USA IS A PROPAGANDA MACHINE, AND I FOR ONE AM TOO INTELLIGENT TO FALL FOR ITS BULL****. THEIR FORIGN POLICIES HAVE GOT THEM INTO THIS MESS, SO RATHER THAN CHANGE THEM THEY ARE GONNA ATTACK, KILL INNOCENTS AND MAYBE A FEW SOLDIERS, AND THEN WHEN THEY GET ATTACKED AGAIN (AND THEY WILL GET ATTACKED AGAIN, AFTER WHAT THEY HAVE DONE) THEY WILL ***** AND MOAN ABOUT HOW THEY NEVER DESERVED IT, WELL THEY WILL HAVE DESERVED IT, AND THIS IS GONNA LEAD INTO WW3

AND BTW, I TRUST AFGHANISTAN TO PROVIDE ME WITH ACCURATE FIGURES, COZ AT THE TIME OF THE COLLAPSE THEY WERE TALKING 50,000 DEAD, AND IT ENDED UP BEING 5,000; SLIGHT DIFFERENCE DONT U THINK??

ONE LAST THING... U WANNA FIGH BACK, TWO WRONGS DONT MAKE A RIGHT PAL

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Take 3 deep breaths.
























dont ya feel better now? Jeez man calm down.

oh and about that last part....just cause the death toll in NY was way less than projected...how does that say anything about how well the Taliban are reporting their dead? I dont see the connection.

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understand that the US citezens will probably not be able to see this objectivley, so the truth may not be 100% clear, but most dont want more of the same in afghanistan

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Erm, excuse me? Who do you think you are to say who is seeing things objectively and who isn't?!?

I'm not a US citizen, although I am subject to a certain amount of propaganda since I live in the UK, but I don't think that makes it a forgone conclusion that I understand what's going on worse than you. You live in the UK too Ghost. You might be a muslim and feel you have personal links with the muslims in Afghanistan but how on earth does that make you see things 'objectively'?! I could just as easily say your perception of the situation is coloured by your personal feelings.

Note that I'm not saying that because I don't think it's fair to make sweeping statements about people.


Secondly, I think you're acting very unreasonably towards GasDrinker. Sure, you may disagree with his opinions but that doesn't give you any right to start calling him a ***** and shouting at him after he has done nothing but disagree with you. In a pretty damn polite way, too, compared to most people around here. Sort yourself out mate, calm down.


Thirdly, you may trust the Taleban's figures but I don't really. I see them as a guide. They are a manipulative regime, and in my opinion their propaganda is just as inaccurate as our propaganda. I also see no reason why someone who was willing to go to great lengths to kill 7000 people in New York to incite a jihad wouldn't consider causing an explosion in an Afghan residential area to ensure civilians (more importantly it seems, muslim civilians) were perceived to be killed by the airstrikes. I am not saying that this is what happened, but it is most certainly a possibility. The terrorists are clearly very misguided and follow a different kind of Islam to mainstream Islam. Timothy McVeigh also thought his cause was a good one, and considered the deaths he caused to be 'collateral damage' even though he felt no animosity towards the people he killed. We have no reason to think the terrorists will act any differently.


Fourthly, why is it that the US's withdrawal from Afghanistan when the Soviet Union had retreated declared to be so completely awful? The US helped the Afghans get rid of the Russion invaders and get their land back. Once they were gone, the US left. Suddenly, because the US didn't stay and pour more money into the country and interfere in the setting up of a stable Afghan government, the US had commited some kind of atrocity? So if I saw you fighting some huge guy in the street and helped you fight him off, but your arm got broken in the fight, you would expect me to pay your hospital bills for you too? Would you expect me to go round to your house and look after your family while you were being treated?

How is the US's failure to extend more generosity seen as such an abomination?!


Fifthly, why is it so damn important that they're innocent muslims?? I understand that it's politically important because the terrorists are trying to convince everyone it's a war against Islam, but why does it matter to you? It doesn't matter to me whatsoever. They're just people and it's tragic when any innocent civilian dies; I don't mourn any less just because a victim doesn't share my beliefs. By constantly implying that it's important that they were muslim you are playing into the hands of the terrorists, who want just these kinds of emotive words to be used, to stir up conflict.


Sixthly, I completely agree that the Northern Alliance isn't necessarily a good replacement for the Taleban, and I am uneasy about any strong ties between this 'coalition' (as it has been dubbed) and the Northern Alliance, in case a later disagreement with them about who should govern the nation is perceived as some kind of betrayal. That would be a very bad thing.


Seventhly (and finally for this post you'll be pleased to know) I think it's very unreasonable to tell the US that it isn't entitled to complain if it gets attacked with biological weapons, or similar occurences take place. That is like saying Bin Laden (if it was indeed him who orchestrated the attacks) isn't entitled to complain if Afghan civilians are killed by US strikes, because by targeting the US he brought it upon Afghanistan.

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Originally posted by HarryW
...

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I think somebody forgot to eat his Wheaties this morning :(

Well being a reasonable and just person, thats about as steamed as Harry would let himself get:)

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Originally posted by ghost ryder
yeah, good idea

but one last note, im not gettin my facts confused, they were saying 50,000 had died

U KNOW WHAT I MEAN!! the human population will devastated, and when i said "u", i should have said "the government" but i was on a rant and "u" is easier to type

and gasdrinker, i thought i told u 2 shut up, i dont know which SPECIFIC policies, but they keep stickin their nose in to further their image and make more money

u cant argue with that, its the truth

aight, enough of this

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Looks like GR knows what the Shift key is now! :D :D :p :p

yeah, ok, so im not 100% objective, but i know that the taleban is a bunch of terrorists, but i was sayin some US citezens are too clouded with rage as well as propaganda

yeah i know im bein harsh on gasdrinker, he just wont shut up about which excact policies have led to this

and the US helped arm afghanistan during the russia conflict then when the russians drew out, a civil war was immenent, and so instead of tryin 2 sort that out, or at least providing aid, they just left

id love 2 argue some more (actually i wouldnt :D) but im tired and i wanna go 2 bed, so ill cya round

im out

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Originally posted by The Hobo


What alternative do we have? You've stated so much that what we are doing is wrong. What should we do? Mourn our thousands dead?

Osama hates the US. He won't stop if we ignore him. Again, I ask: what should we do.

Ghost, don't even say diplomacy. That's proposterous. Kinda like my spelling talents.

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i believe nagotiation would have been some what more rational

"hand him over or share his fate"
isnt a good phrase to use in my opinion.

taliban asked for proof
they didnt give them anything

they suggested he be tried in a third country
again use didnt want to nagotiate

why not nagotiate to an extent?
whats wrong with nagotiating?

i do believe if US nagotiated
it would have won more world support IF taliban didnt comply
and i certianly wouldnt have any sympathy for them if US could at least make an attempt to prevent this

from the beganning
they were looking for someone to bomb

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Originally posted by kovan


i believe nagotiation would have been some what more rational

"hand him over or share his fate"
isnt a good phrase to use in my opinion.

taliban asked for proof
they didnt give them anything

they suggested he be tried in a third country
again use didnt want to nagotiate

why not nagotiate to an extent?
whats wrong with nagotiating?

i do believe if US nagotiated
it would have won more world support IF taliban didnt comply
and i certianly wouldnt have any sympathy for them if US could at least make an attempt to prevent this

from the beganning
they were looking for someone to bomb

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The same could be said about the people who bombed the WTC. They didnt exactly try to negotiate. They commited an act of war. And war they will get.

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Originally posted by nishantp


The same could be said about the people who bombed the WTC. They didnt exactly try to negotiate. They commited an act of war. And war they will get.

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your scared cus one of those missles might miss afghan and make its way towards india :)

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Originally posted by ghost ryder
yeah, ok, so im not 100% objective, but i know that the taleban is a bunch of terrorists, but i was sayin some US citezens are too clouded with rage as well as propaganda

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Many US citizens are probably seeing things a little different from the rest of the world, I would agree on that. It doesn't mean our views are clear though.

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yeah i know im bein harsh on gasdrinker, he just wont shut up about which excact policies have led to this

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Well, he's entitled to ask if he feels it's unclear what exactly is objectionable in US foreign policy. Maybe you're frustrated because you feel it's obvious to you, but then again maybe by going through it again you'll learn something new (from yourself or from anyone else). Whatever it is, lighten up :)

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and the US helped arm afghanistan during the russia conflict then when the russians drew out, a civil war was immenent, and so instead of tryin 2 sort that out, or at least providing aid, they just left

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Okay I can see what you're getting at here, but look at how much the US is being criticised for interfering in other countries' business. What should the US have done? Picked a faction in the civil war? That would be choosing a side based on US (western) ideals. Should they have threatened any aggressors with force? That's going to breed resent. Should they advocate diplomacy? Surely if the factions are interested in diplomacy they can figure out how to talk to each other. How do you approach that? Of course, the least interfering way would be to just step back and let them sort things out for themselves...

It's not such a black and white issue as many people try and make out. It's a politically difficult situation and it seems that some feel the US made the wrong choice of action. I'm inclined to think that the US would have been blamed for something, whatever they had done.

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id love 2 argue some more (actually i wouldnt :D) but im tired and i wanna go 2 bed, so ill cya round

im out

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Me too, I gotta go to bed. It's gone 2 am and I have work in the morning :-/

Take it easy.

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Originally posted by kovan



your scared cus one of those missles might miss afghan and make its way towards india :)

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I find it rather amusing that you assumed i was in India (didnt my style of english tell you anything?). While i have an Indian heritage, I was born, razed, and am living, in Canada just like you I believe. Also...India is quite powerful for a nation as poor as it is.

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Originally posted by ghost ryder
yeah i know im bein harsh on gasdrinker, he just wont shut up about which excact policies have led to this

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I find that to be rather pertinent. If you don't state, even in broad terms, what foreign policies to which you're referring, I have to assume that you want the United States to be "cuttin out" all foreign policy, a rediculous proposition at best.

ghost ryder: I edited your all-caps post above for rude language. If I see more posts from you with similar language I will ban you.

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Originally posted by nishantp
I find it rather amusing that you assumed i was in India (didnt my style of english tell you anything?). While i have an Indian heritage, I was born, razed, and am living, in Canada just like you I believe. Also...India is quite powerful for a nation as poor as it is.

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didnt you see the smily dude?
*kovan shakes his head*

MartinLiss

by the way
how are we doing?
would you say being nasty to one another has came down a LITTLE at least? :)

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Originally posted by kovan
MartinLiss

by the way
how are we doing?
would you say being nasty to one another has came down a LITTLE at least? :)

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Oh yeah sure...i suppose thats all because Adam is gone:rolleyes:

I am tired of all this discussion.


























Get some other stuff to do(like school work).
I got 2 LABS to do which are more than 20 pages long. I had to hand write all those 20 pages (no typing:( ):(

They won't LET you type it? Why the hell not?

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Originally posted by nishantp
They won't LET you type it? Why the hell not?

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Yes, my teacher will ask me to write it in the lab book even when he hands in printed copies of the lab.
So you can think of all that crap to write...Objective, Procedure, Materials...

Why not scan your lab book, type everything up, then paste your text in the scanned image, then print?

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Originally posted by GasDrinker
Why not scan your lab book, type everything up, then paste your text in the scanned image, then print?

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No idea will work other than wasting my time on writting all those labs. He wants to see the lab written with pen or pencil on those white lab papers.
He likes when students get into this kind of trouble:p:(

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Originally posted by abdul


No idea will work other than wasting my time on writting all those labs. He wants to see the lab written with pen or pencil on those white lab papers.
He likes when students get into this kind of trouble:p:(

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Somebody should tell him the stone age ended some time ago...I was going to sugest hacking his computer...but it doesnt sound like he has one...

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Originally posted by nishantp
Somebody should tell him the stone age ended some time ago...I was going to sugest hacking his computer...but it doesnt sound like he has one...

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He has about 3 or 4 computer (but way sllllllooooow).
You are right that we should move on to the computer age now and the schools should buy each of students a fast laptop so that they can use computers to type instead of writting (like those stone ages:)):D