Is Bush making empty promises?

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lot of the oil is there, and they couldnt lose that could they??

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They'd rather not, but that was a bonus.

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and the jews survived all of those bevause allah was gracious to them

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We got through humanity's most horrible atrocities because of HaTiKvah--hope--not because of some invisible fairy or a prophet. Believing in fairies is the easy way out. Hard work, determination, and never giving up hope are all synonymous with the Jew, as history has time and time again proven.

"God" is a literative tool for those who either didn't work to get something, or for those who want to hurt others.

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and they were ungrateful so he punished them (the holocaust)

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How dare you presume to know what the Holocaust was about? Your Allah is a myth; the Holocaust was real. They have a term for people who combine fiction with reality -- deluded -- and that's precisely what you are.

ghost ryder, you are rite
it does say that in the Qur'an
Dajjal will rise among the jews
most of his followers will be the jews
and we know the prophies of dajjal
for those that dont know what Dajjal is
its the islamic version of "Anti-Christ", the false prophet

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Your Allah is a myth

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right, and i am the one that attacks others religions
you lowlife piece of shiat

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right, and i am the one that attacks others religions

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I didn't attack anyone or anything. I merely stated that God doesn't exist.

Before this degenerates into another Kovan/Aknisely slanging match...

Aknisely

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We're learning all that we can, and trying to improve the situation as best we can, but there's only so much we can do. The proverbial ball is in the Palestinian's court, and if they refuse to co-operate, then there's nothing that can be done.

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You've said it yourself: "There's only so much we can do". And that is why someone else probably needs to come in supervise.

Saying the "ball is in the Palestinian's court" is not very helpful. The problem now is that both sides deeply distrust the other. A deal would more likely be brokered (and stuck to) with a third and independant party.

America is not suitable for that role. How can the Palestinians ever trust America when they pour millions of dollars into the Israeli defence budget each year? Turn the tables around. Would you trust another country mediating (say Russia for arguments sake) if they were donating millions to the palestinian forces?

Simonm

all nicely said

Palestinians have openly declared they want interntionaly bodies to over look at the situation, and possibly mediate between them and Israel
the problem is, Israel will not allow this?
WHY?

and you are right, US is not a fair mediator, and as you said
Pals will never trust US for the reasons you gave..

but my question is,
if Israel wants peace so bad
why will they not allow let say some european countries to look over the situation?

aknisely, SHUT UP i dont want to hear a word out of you about this
this is a question for simonm..

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if Israel wants peace so bad
why will they not allow let say some european countries to look over the situation?

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I don't know. I don' think Israel really wants any foreign troops on it's soil. Perhaps it feels that it would lose control of it's own land if foreign troops were allowed in.

As I understand it, the Palestinians don't just want someone else to mediate the situation, they want neutral countries to intervene with troops. Would the Palesinians trust and European nations? Who would they trust?

we all know the jewish settler project sharon is running is ILLEGAL under international law
so i think Israel doesnt want anyone in there to stop them from taking more land that by international law that doesnt belong to them

who would Pals trust?
i dont know, i believe they were first calling the European Unions involvement
then i think they extended that to UN

[qoute]
I don't know. I don' think Israel really wants any foreign troops on it's soil. Perhaps it feels that it would lose control of it's own land if foreign troops were allowed in. [/quote]

so whats the solution then
Israel and Pal make a peace deal? i dont see it happening unfortonately

there need to be a UNBIASED external body to solve this
either that
or hang all the leaders of both sides

my ultimate opinion on the situation is though
Israel is not interested in peace, if they were, they would make an effort to let someone else try
as long as Pals homes are leveled, there will be people blowing themselves up for a cause they believe is worth dying for

Kovan

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my ultimate opinion on the situation is though
Israel is not interested in peace, if they were, they would make an effort to let someone else try
as long as Pals homes are leveled, there will be people blowing themselves up for a cause they believe is worth dying for

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I don't believe this to be acurate. I would say that it is true that the religous right (who hold the balance of power in Israel's PR electoral system) are not interested in compromise and they work to scupper any deal that might be entered into by the government.

I think the majority of Israelis want peace and would be willing to compromise.

Perhaps if they changed the electoral system from PR to, say, a "first past the post system" (like we have in Britain), that would prevent the minority parties from getting many people elected and allow the mainstream opinion in Israel to prevail.

The problem is, though, is that Israel probably will not agree to international intervention unless the world (and particularly America) put lots of pressure on them to do so. And then only if they were guaranteed that no settlements would be forced on them without their consent.

It is a very humiliating thing to let international troops into your country to control a situation that you could not control. The Israelis would have to swallow their pride and knowing Israelis as I do, this would be a very hard thing for them to do.

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The problem is, though, is that Israel probably will not agree to international intervention unless the world (and particularly America) put lots of pressure on them to do so. And then only if they were guaranteed that no settlements would be forced on them without their consent

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shouldnt what ever is done be beneficial and worked between both sides?
what you said tells me that Israel is the only one that has to make a decision on this
and thats where the problem is i think

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It is a very humiliating thing to let international troops into your country to control a situation that you could not control. The Israelis would have to swallow their pride and knowing Israelis as I do, this would be a very hard thing for them to do.

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well when pride gets in the way, it defeats all resolutions and steps to solutions

my opinion again, is that given the evidence that we know of today, is that Israel is not pulling their weight as much as they should

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I think the majority of Israelis want peace and would be willing to compromise

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perhaps i should have made my statement clear
by Israel, i meant the government
since when in any country does the citizen make the big decisions?

i do agree with you that MOST of BOTH sides want peace

thats why i suggested that we hang the government leaders on both sides

neverless, i see your reasonable person to discuss and debate this issue with, and again you have shown that not all jews are like aknisely
hope this discussion continues in proper manners

Kovan

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shouldnt what ever is done be beneficial and worked between both sides?
what you said tells me that Israel is the only one that has to make a decision on this
and thats where the problem is i think

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Oh yes, any settlement reached needs to be agreed by all sides to work.
You did say that Palestinians already want international intervention so the task is to convince Israel to agree to this.

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perhaps i should have made my statement clear
by Israel, i meant the government
since when in any country does the citizen make the big decisions?

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The problem with PR (Proportional Representation) electoral systems is that it rarely yields an outright majority. Consequantly, majorities have to be formed by parties making alliances. In such situaitons, the small minority parties can hold the balance of power and force consessions from the larger (more mainstream) parties.
This is what happens in Israel. The "religous right" has too much infulence on government policy.

Another problem is that the "religous right" won't give up power easilly. If they can't affect things through legitamte avenues, they will resort to whatever means they think are necessary (like the extremist Palestinians). e.g. When the prime minister was shot by an orthodox Jew.

I do strongly believe that if Israel is willing to compromise in the area of having an international body, either the problem will be solved, if not totally solved, VERY close to being solved

because when international body gets involved,
they will most likely work for the people, not the government
and finally the people will see the benefits of peace because hopefully the international body will not hide things or say nice things in hope of being re-elected, a tactic that politicians often use

trend
i noticed your 4 posts back

look at the icons

Arrow
Question Mark
Angry/Sad Face
Smile

good progress

:)

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I do strongly believe that if Israel is willing to compromise in the area of having an international body, either the problem will be solved, if not totally solved, VERY close to being solved

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Maybe, but there will still be the problem of the fanatics (on both sides) who don't want peace and will do all they can to thwart it.

Some Palestinians will not rest until Israel is completely removed from the Middle East.

Some Israelis will never accept any sort of restrictions on where they can go (and settle).

It's a difficult one. :confused:

We should get my Mum involved. She doesn't believe there's a conflict that can't be solved by "banging their silly heads together". :rolleyes:

Sorry simon, I'm going to reply to your posts in one deal.

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The problem now is that both sides deeply distrust the other.

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Absolutely. We cannot risk trusting Palestinians. If we trust Palestinians, we get Munich or Entebbe all over again. If you go into El-Al or Ben-Guirion airports in Israel and you're a Jew, you'll get on your flight without problems. If you're a Moslem, prepare for a strip search and an interrogation. It may seem racist or racial profiling, but after the hijackings in the 70's, these measures are necessary and must continue. America, Israel, and the rest of the world will start trusting Palestinians when they stop blowing up buses and shooting women.

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I don' think Israel really wants any foreign troops on it's soil

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Of course not. The armies of other countries don't belong in Israel; she is more than equiped to take out all of Arabia, should the need arise. Underestimate the Israeli Defense Force and you get Entebbe.:)

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You did say that Palestinians already want international intervention so the task is to convince Israel to agree to this.

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We did, a number of years ago in Norway. Our then-Prime Minister (lated assassinated) and Yassir Arafat both won Nobel Peace prizes for their work in Oslo. The first man to break all agreements in the Accord? Arafat.

An interesting document is found here.

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Some Palestinians will not rest until Israel is completely removed from the Middle East.

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"Some." Every Arab that I've spoken to when I was in the Sinai and near Jordan has told me the same thing. "We will not put down our bombs or stones until every last Jew has been driven into the sea."

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Some Israelis will never accept any sort of restrictions on where they can go (and settle).

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Probably not, but the aim here is not to build fences and restrictions and demilitarized zones. The aim is to build co-operation and friendship.

Good grief, how can you convince yourself of all this? I am repeatedly stunned by your one-sidedness.

You are acting as if everyone is agreeing with you. They're not. Far from it.

You can pretend that Israel is a nation of saints if you like. It's only yourself you're fooling.

SHUT THE HELL UP!!

Aknisely

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Of course not. The armies of other countries don't belong in Israel; she is more than equiped to take out all of Arabia, should the need arise. Underestimate the Israeli Defense Force and you get Entebbe.

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I think you misunderstand me. I do not think Israel needs foreign intervention because it's forces don't have the capacity to defeat it's foes. Rather it is because the Israeli forces themselves cannot make effective peace keepers in areas where they are so despised and distrusted.
I'm not saying that all Israeli soldiers untrustworthy or act improperly. But, the perception remains amoung the Palestinians.

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. Our then-Prime Minister (lated assassinated) and Yassir Arafat both won Nobel Peace prizes for their work in Oslo. The first man to break all agreements in the Accord? Arafat.

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I wouldn't claim to know much about this accord and who was responsible for breaking it (if there could ever be only one party solely responsible). I looked at the link you provided and whilst it does point to the Palestinians being responsible for breaking it, it spends more time trying to illustrate why the accords were unfair against Israel. Even overlooking the fact that it is a pro-Jewish site, it hardly demonstrates conclusively that the palestinians are responsible. It doesn't even make sense why the palestinians would flout an agreement that, by the site's own admission, was in the palestinians favour.

Simonm
if you i could ever give you any advice
it would be, no point of trying to explain anythign to him..
:)

thats all

And you, Kovan, are of course famous for listening to the other person's point of view. :rolleyes:

Pots and kettles, methinks.

duncan, i actually do listen to other peoples views
well compared to Aknisely anyways

:)

If Bush truely wants to rid the world of terrorisam isn't this a plus for the world so why does it seem we will be the only one putting the bill. Can you say Bye Bye Social Security not that it's much to wave at.

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Originally posted by Jazzisam
If Bush truely wants to rid the world of terrorisam isn't this a plus for the world so why does it seem we will be the only one putting the bill

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... and the British and the Aussies and the French...

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If Bush truely wants to rid the world of terrorisam isn't this a plus for the world so why does it seem we will be the only one putting the bill.

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I don't think that's the case. I know the UK and some other European countries will be assisting in a military manner.

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Originally posted by Jazzisam
If Bush truely wants to rid the world of terrorisam isn't this a plus for the world so why does it seem we will be the only one putting the bill. Can you say Bye Bye Social Security not that it's much to wave at.

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How do you work out you will be the only one paying to rid the world of terrorism. Or doesn't the American news report on the mass mobilisation of the worlds forces.... don't bother answering... I get CNN :rolleyes: and I saw their Gulf War coverage :rolleyes:

SD

Just to show that you're not alone out there.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/sta...re/british.stm

SD

Do you honestly think they will ride out this storm long term? The other countries you mentioned have been attacked more often then the US has why did they wait for us to wage the war.

What??? Other countries haven't been waiting to wage the war. They have all been fighting terrorism for years. It's just that this particular attrocity is of such a magnitude that it made all the world sit up and think "Sh*t that could have been us that got attacked".

By the way, in Britain the only major terrorist organisations are the Irish Republican and Loyalist groups. Most of the Republicans are funded by American's. So before you start accusing other nations of sitting back and not doing anything it might be worth while looking at a global news service and seeing things from a non-American point of view. You would be surprised as to what is happening out there on the rest of the planet!!!

SD

Thanks for a look see through a different point of view.

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I'm not saying that all Israeli soldiers untrustworthy or act improperly. But, the perception remains amoung the Palestinians.

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The perception of the Palestinians is hardly concerning; they will never see any sort of objectivity until Israel is completely removed from the picture and an Islamic (or pro-Islamic, if such a thing exists) state is dictating their demands to Israel. To the Palestinians, every negotiation and every contract is unfair and undesirable, because the proposals by Israel put an end to violence and military action; this is not the goal of Palestinians. Palestinians will never stop their fight until Israel vanishes and the sea is filled with Jews.

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(if there could ever be only one party solely responsible).

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We immediately withdrew from Samaria, Judea, and Gaza -- just an example. Israel had followed every provision to the letter. Arafat did precisely the opposite. If that sounds unfair and one-sided, then it's unfair and one-sided. Israel never violated any agreement with anyone until that agreement was first broken by the other party.

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Even overlooking the fact that it is a pro-Jewish site, it hardly demonstrates conclusively that the palestinians are responsible.

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The PLO was required to change its anti-Zionist and anti-Semitic charter; it did not. It was required to report new recruits to the Palestinian police force for background checks; it did not. The police force sizes were to be reduced; they were increased. Anti-Zionist propoganda was to be halted and programmes in the media and schools to promote neighbourly behavior and tolerance never occured. This demonstrates that the Oslo Accords mean nothing to the Palestinians, and that peace, no matter how much Israel sacrifices, is not the goal.

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It doesn't even make sense why the palestinians would flout an agreement that, by the site's own admission, was in the palestinians favour.

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It makes perfect sense. You're assuming that the ultimate goal of Palestinians is to setup a Palestinian state and have peace. This is true, but Palestinians wish their state to occupy the entirety of Israel, with the rivers flowing with Jewish blood.

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Originally Posted by Aknisely
The perception of the Palestinians is hardly concerning

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I think this sums up what is wrong about Israel's attitude towards their dispute with the Palestinians.

I explain that sentence in the rest of the paragraph. The Palestinians' only goal is to destory Israel and Zion.

Adam
when idiots like you who claim they are jews think like that
and say stuff like that
then .. well you can figure out the rest


Simonm
its best you just leave him be

Kovan, please stop fighting with Adam. He's just messing with your mind.

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http://www.cnn.com/

The Taliban said Friday they want comprehensive proof and evidence that bin Laden is connected to the attacks in New York and Washington, in which more than 6,000 people are feared dead.

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So do I.

Simply not turning over a mass-murder suspect is reason enough to legally wage war against Afghanistan.

interesting
if that was the case, israel should have been wipped out when they refused to hand over sharon for war crimes againts humanity back few decades ago or so

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if that was the case, israel should have been wipped out when they refused to hand over sharon for war crimes againts humanity back few decades ago or so

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There's a difference between wiping out a country and war. If you can't understand that difference, then it's no wonder you can't understand Israel.

If you want to wipe out Israel, keep trying. It'll never happen.

like i said adam

bani-israel will be around until the end, so dont u worry, your precious israel aint goin nowhere soon bucko

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Originally posted by kovan
interesting
if that was the case, israel should have been wipped out when they refused to hand over sharon for war crimes againts humanity back few decades ago or so

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Only one newline! I'm impressed. :p

Adam
if you say so

Ghost Ryder
he he, yes they will be.. unfortonately(and those that will be around will all be like this idiot, hope good jews do stay though, but we dont need people like adam)

Filburt
ok now draw my final conclusion
you have no life
:)

but then again thats a good thing..
:)