Post Race!

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Originally Posted by szlamany

Who bothers with science?

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O.k. szlamany has a predilection for catholic velociraptors.

Velociraptors "lived approximately 75 to 71 million years ago" "weighing up to 15 kg" and "in September 2007, researchers found quill knobs on the forearm of a Velociraptor found in Mongolia.[10] These bumps on bird wing bones show where feathers anchor, and their presence on Velociraptor indicate it too had feathers"."The second digit, for which Velociraptor is most famous, was highly modified and held retracted off the ground. It bore a relatively large, sickle-shaped claw" (Wiki).

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...r_dinoguy2.jpghttp://0.tqn.com/d/dinosaurs/1/S/f/B...iraptorAB3.jpg

Far from eating everything, as it is only a 15kg reptilian bird, it is often classified as a scavenger: "In 2012, Hone and colleagues published a paper that described a Velociraptor specimen with a long bone of an azhdarchid pterosaur in its gut. This was interpreted as showing scavenging behaviour" (Wiki).

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Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker

I believe he is quite serious. This is his view, as strange and alien as it may seem. He went here a year ago and has come back. In all this, as in everything else posted, Witis is consistent. That's why it's the Witis way. That Disney-fascist view of the animal world is why I chose to call him Bambi once he came up with a nickname for me. Since he gave me one, I could do no less, and the name was obvious.

By the way, you shouldn't show more mermaid pictures because it will seriously confuse Witis. He won't be able to tell whether he can eat them or not.

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Its his trolling way. I cannot believe that someone actually believes that fishes would take over the universe or that some animals are innocent or guilty based on...well whatever he is basing it on. If he really were that daft then I wouldn't expect him to be able to operate a computer much less figure out how to sign up for on a forum. As for his consistency....well, effective trolls are nothing if not consistent.

However, there are actually people that believe in some of his less outrageous claims like not eating meat and such but even they are more rational about it.

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Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker

Yeah, except that you are making up your data based on guesses and wishful thinking. You have no practical experience with any of this and it's kind of showing.

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Huh? What data did I make up? The data that I provided re U.V. and temperature was from a credible source.

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I didn't watch the video after the first few seconds, and I didn't turn on the sound anyways. I only watched long enough to be sure that it was, in fact, the person I thought it was (who I know fairly well, though I have only worked with him occasionally).

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Sad to say it but Dan Schill pretty much ruined your case.

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And you repeatedly ignore the fact that those trout ARE native species. The reason Schill works with them is because they are species of concern in the state, which they couldn't be unless they were native. Therefore, those are species that have evolved to withstand desert conditions. We are the ones impacting them.

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Trout are classified as cool climate fish and I challenge you to provide any evidence that there are native species of trout that have evolved into desert fish capable of withstanding warm to hot water or no water at all. In that video I posted Dan Schill also detailed that he did not consider redband trout to be desert fish and called them a rainbow trout that happens to live in the coolest parts of desert rivers and streams.

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Originally Posted by Witis

As far as picking out the species to focus on I guess that would involve a series of taste tests to determine which varieties will be most sought after in the fish markets, although perhaps you can make a case for some of the other less tasty varieties.

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No. For a fish to be sought after in the fish markets, it has to pass a different criteria first: It has to be large enough so that a person would bother eating them. Most desert fish are tiny.

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Surely you have eaten sardines or anchovies before, they just have to pass the taste test in my view.

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Originally Posted by Witis

Huh? What data did I make up? The data that I provided re U.V. and temperature was from a credible source.

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You came up with UV peaking at noon, which is fine, then tried to suggest that it was maximum temperature, which it is not. You talk about desert vegetation, but you appear to have never seen a desert and also appear to think that they are all the same. For one thing, you believe that they are all hot and dry, when they are really only dry.

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Sad to say it but Dan Schill pretty much ruined your case.

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No, he didn't, but I won't say anymore about that.

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Trout are classified as cool climate fish and I challenge you to provide any evidence that there are native species of trout that have evolved into desert fish capable of withstanding warm to hot water or no water at all.

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Of course they aren't capable of withstanding warm to hot water. Who said that they did? That's more of your assumption that deserts have to be hot and desert streams have to be hot. They don't. There are streams too hot for trout in non-desert areas around here, and desert streams that are world-class trout fisheries. Guess why that is. The climate isn't as cookie-cutter as your imagination.

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Surely you have eaten sardines or anchovies before, they just have to pass the taste test in my view.

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Both of those are high volume marine fish (though I've caught anchovies in brackish water, so they aren't exclusively marine). Both are also served salty. I've had some Chinese salted/dried fish that looked like they might have been cyprinids, too, which would be a fresh water species (though salted and dried I couldn't be quite sure what they were). None of those fish pass the taste test to me, but you probably do have a point: Once you load something up with enough spices and salt, it probably doesn't matter what it was originally. That was my feeling about conch, as well: Once treated the way that conch had been treated, even an old boot sole would probably be edible.

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Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker

I believe he is quite serious. This is his view, as strange and alien as it may seem. He went here a year ago and has come back. In all this, as in everything else posted, Witis is consistent. That's why it's the Witis way. That Disney-fascist view of the animal world is why I chose to call him Bambi once he came up with a nickname for me. Since he gave me one, I could do no less, and the name was obvious.

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Fascism "A political regime, having totalitarian aspirations, ideologically based on a relationship between business and the centralized government, business-and-government control of the market place, repression of criticism or opposition, a leader cult and exalting the state and/or religion above individual rights. Originally only applied (usually capitalized) to Benito Mussolini's Italy." "Fascist ideology consistently invokes the primacy of the state. Leaders such as Benito Mussolini in Italy and Adolf Hitler in Nazi Germany embodied the state and claimed immense power." (Wiki)

My sig reads "All men have an inherent right to life, the right to self determination including freedom from forced or compulsory labour, a right to hold opinions and the freedom of expression, and the right to a fair trial and freedom from torture. Be aware that these rights are universal and inalienable (cannot be given, taken or otherwise transferred or removed) although you do risk losing the aforementioned rights should you fail to uphold them" which is exceedingly liberal and focused on human rights rather than dictatorial fascism. You are also aware of my overt anti monarchy views. Thus calling me a fascist is not only very offensive it is also farcical and ludicrous.

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Originally Posted by Niya

Its his trolling way. I cannot believe that someone actually believes that fishes would take over the universe or that some animals are innocent or guilty based on...well whatever he is basing it on. If he really were that daft then I wouldn't expect him to be able to operate a computer much less figure out how to sign up for on a forum. As for his consistency....well, effective trolls are nothing if not consistent.

However, there are actually people that believe in some of his less outrageous claims like not eating meat and such but even they are more rational about it.

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Hey Ugga Boey I am not a troll. Determining which animals to defend and which animals to consume is a indication of higher level intelligence rather than stupidity, only cavemen eat every form of life beneath them. Further I think you are daft for saying goodbye to eternity and knowingly committing crimes like murdering cows and chickens as doing so will get you into hell.

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Originally Posted by Witis

Hey Ugga Boey I am not a troll. Determining which animals to defend and which animals to consume is a indication of higher level intelligence rather than stupidity, only cavemen eat every form of life beneath them. Further I think you are daft for saying goodbye to eternity and knowingly committing crimes like murdering cows and chickens as doing so will get you into hell.

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Aren't you just adorable :D

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Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker

You came up with UV peaking at noon, which is fine, then tried to suggest that it was maximum temperature, which it is not.

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Nope, I only ever suggested that at midday the temp was a couple of degrees centigrade below the daily max i.e. that is merely illusory criticism. For example you will be unable to tell me the post number of the post where I made such a claim.

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You talk about desert vegetation, but you appear to have never seen a desert and also appear to think that they are all the same. For one thing, you believe that they are all hot and dry, when they are really only dry.

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You were clearly only referring to hot desert conditions when talking about the impact of cows on desert fish. Hmmm I wonder what percentage of the world is covered by hot deserts and what percentage of the world is covered by cold deserts. Also I don't view areas covered by ice like the continent of Antarctica as a desert due to the widespread availability of water in frozen form.

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Originally Posted by Witis

Sad to say it but Dan Schill pretty much ruined your case.

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No, he didn't, but I won't say anymore about that.

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Sure he did.

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Originally Posted by Sharky

And you repeatedly ignore the fact that those trout ARE native species. The reason Schill works with them is because they are species of concern in the state, which they couldn't be unless they were native. Therefore, those are species that have evolved to withstand desert conditions. We are the ones impacting them.

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Originally Posted by Witis

Trout are classified as cool climate fish and I challenge you to provide any evidence that there are native species of trout that have evolved into desert fish capable of withstanding warm to hot water or no water at all. In that video I posted Dan Schill also detailed that he did not consider redband trout to be desert fish and called them a rainbow trout that happens to live in the coolest parts of desert rivers and streams.

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Of course they aren't capable of withstanding warm to hot water. Who said that they did? That's more of your assumption that deserts have to be hot and desert streams have to be hot. They don't. There are streams too hot for trout in non-desert areas around here, and desert streams that are world-class trout fisheries. Guess why that is. The climate isn't as cookie-cutter as your imagination.

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At last you finally admit that trout are not a desert fish adapted to withstand warm water or no water, and no I obviously don't mean cold desert!

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Originally Posted by Witis

As far as picking out the species to focus on I guess that would involve a series of taste tests to determine which varieties will be most sought after in the fish markets, although perhaps you can make a case for some of the other less tasty varieties.

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Originally Posted by Sharky

No. For a fish to be sought after in the fish markets, it has to pass a different criteria first: It has to be large enough so that a person would bother eating them. Most desert fish are tiny.

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Originally Posted by Witis

Surely you have eaten sardines or anchovies before, they just have to pass the taste test in my view.

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Both of those are high volume marine fish (though I've caught anchovies in brackish water, so they aren't exclusively marine). Both are also served salty. I've had some Chinese salted/dried fish that looked like they might have been cyprinids, too, which would be a fresh water species (though salted and dried I couldn't be quite sure what they were). None of those fish pass the taste test to me, but you probably do have a point: Once you load something up with enough spices and salt, it probably doesn't matter what it was originally. That was my feeling about conch, as well: Once treated the way that conch had been treated, even an old boot sole would probably be edible.

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Did you eat that sort of conch:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ExV4b77qfww

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Originally Posted by Niya

Aren't you just adorable :D

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http://ecologyadventure2.edublogs.or...-2-2e8qx7n.jpg

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Originally Posted by Witis

Nope, I only ever suggested that at midday the temp was a couple of degrees centigrade below the daily max i.e. that is merely illusory criticism.

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By noon, half the daily temperature sounds about right. So, if we see roughly 20-30 degree (F) daily swings, then seeing 10-15 degrees by noon is about normal, with the rest coming afterwards. You can construe that as a couple degrees C if you'd like.

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You were clearly only referring to hot desert conditions when talking about the impact of cows on desert fish.

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I wasn't, actually. I was referring to Idaho desert conditions. With abundant vegetation, the streams can remain pretty cool. I was happy to sit in one to cool off on a hot desert hike. That stream may have been the east fork of the one in that video, though I think probably not. It was clearly desert (the Inside Desert, officially), and had plenty of fish. It was also thoroughly fenced, so cows have to stay out.

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Sure he did, "In that video I posted Dan Schill also detailed that he did not consider redband trout to be desert fish and called them a rainbow trout that happens to live in the coolest parts of desert rivers and streams."

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Ok, so what? Those are the fish that we are trying to protect when we fence cows out of the water (well, them and salmon, depending on the exact stream). The fish are native to the streams in question, too, which means that we didn't put them there. The streams are in deserts. The rest is all semantics.

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At last you finally admit that trout are not a desert fish adapted to withstand warm water or no water, and no I obviously don't mean cold desert!

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Which wasn't any part of the argument, so it has nothing to do with anything at all. The very point of this discussion was that the vegetaion was keeping the water cool enough for the trout, and cow grazing would wipe out the vegetation, which would raise the temperatures to lethal limits and wipe out the trout, which are native. Of course they aren't adapted for hot water, or else that whole point would have been invalid. The very reason I was opposed to cows out there was because their impact caused the water to be too hot for the fish.

By the way, I realize that there are fish that can withstand desication, but I'm not aware of any such species in this state or these deserts.

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Did you eat that sort of conch:

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Probably not, though I don't know what kind of conch I ate. For that matter, considering how it was prepared, I'm not actually sure that I had conch at all. It could have been minced rubber bands for all I know. Tasted good, though, whatever it was.

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Originally Posted by Witis

Fascism "A political regime, having totalitarian aspirations, ideologically based on a relationship between business and the centralized government, business-and-government control of the market place, repression of criticism or opposition, a leader cult and exalting the state and/or religion above individual rights. Originally only applied (usually capitalized) to Benito Mussolini's Italy." "Fascist ideology consistently invokes the primacy of the state. Leaders such as Benito Mussolini in Italy and Adolf Hitler in Nazi Germany embodied the state and claimed immense power." (Wiki)

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That's a pretty good definition of fascism. I hadn't seen it when I went looking for a concise definition of the term. Your views of the animal kingdom follow all of that pretty much perfectly, except for the business part (as animals don't have any formal economy or markets). That has also been the disney view in films like Bambi and The Lion King: Every animal species has its place in a heirarchy from greater to lesser. The glory of an animal is in the animal knowing its place and acting accordingly. Some are humble, some are proud, but each has a designated place and is to be judged by its place. The meek must be meek, and they are exalted for it. The mighty must be mighty, and they are condemned for it. Those animals that violate the bounds attributed to their species are considered abberations, so deer or cows that eat chicks are deviants because a true member of that species would never kill anything, other than plants, directly. In fact, you have suggested that they may not kill plants, either, except as a deviant behavior.

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Fish and lizards need to be stopped before they take over the universe

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Are you familiar with the work of David Ike?

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Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker

By noon, half the daily temperature sounds about right. So, if we see roughly 20-30 degree (F) daily swings, then seeing 10-15 degrees by noon is about normal, with the rest coming afterwards. You can construe that as a couple degrees C if you'd like.

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I already provided evidence to back up my claim regarding the temperature: http://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/paleo/ctl/clisci0.html . If you look at the charts you can see that at midday the temperature is just less than 24 degrees celsius only 2 degrees less that the daily peak. Half the daily peak is reached by 6 am.

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Originally Posted by Witis

You were clearly only referring to hot desert conditions when talking about the impact of cows on desert fish.

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I wasn't, actually. I was referring to Idaho desert conditions. With abundant vegetation, the streams can remain pretty cool. I was happy to sit in one to cool off on a hot desert hike. That stream may have been the east fork of the one in that video, though I think probably not. It was clearly desert (the Inside Desert, officially), and had plenty of fish. It was also thoroughly fenced, so cows have to stay out.

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It is not possible for cows to cause overheating of the water in a cold desert. Also I would describe any cold area that does not receive very much rainfall a cold and arid area or a cold desert rather than desert as the default meaning for desert is hot rather than mild or cold probably because hot deserts cover more of the earth's surface:
http://www.mapsofworld.com/images/world-desert-map.jpg

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Originally Posted by Witis

Sure he did, "In that video I posted Dan Schill also detailed that he did not consider redband trout to be desert fish and called them a rainbow trout that happens to live in the coolest parts of desert rivers and streams."

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Ok, so what? Those are the fish that we are trying to protect when we fence cows out of the water (well, them and salmon, depending on the exact stream). The fish are native to the streams in question, too, which means that we didn't put them there. The streams are in deserts. The rest is all semantics.

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The problem is that the trout have not yet evolved enough to withstand the heat of the desert sun and fencing off the river banks is unlikely to substantially reduce the water temperature for the reasons I have provided.

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Originally Posted by Witis

At last you finally admit that trout are not a desert fish adapted to withstand warm water or no water, and no I obviously don't mean cold desert!

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Which wasn't any part of the argument, so it has nothing to do with anything at all. The very point of this discussion was that the vegetaion was keeping the water cool enough for the trout, and cow grazing would wipe out the vegetation, which would raise the temperatures to lethal limits and wipe out the trout, which are native. Of course they aren't adapted for hot water, or else that whole point would have been invalid. The very reason I was opposed to cows out there was because their impact caused the water to be too hot for the fish.

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I put it to you, once again, that there are not a large number of tall trees lining the majority of the desert rivers and streams and even if there were the sun drives the water temperature by heating the air and water and it has most of its impact around midday when trees provide little to no shade.

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By the way, I realize that there are fish that can withstand desication, but I'm not aware of any such species in this state or these deserts.

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If I was looking at all of the species of (hot) desert fish native to he U.S., including the endangered species, I'd have to investigate each species to determine which ones are most adapted for the conditions.

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Originally Posted by Witis

Did you eat that sort of conch:

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Probably not, though I don't know what kind of conch I ate. For that matter, considering how it was prepared, I'm not actually sure that I had conch at all. It could have been minced rubber bands for all I know. Tasted good, though, whatever it was.

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That Florida horse conch is one of the largest sea snails in the world, although it is not a true conch as it is not in the family Strombidae.
http://media-cache-ec0.pinimg.com/73...705217ee4e.jpg

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Originally Posted by Witis

I already provided evidence to back up my claim regarding the temperature: http://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/paleo/ctl/clisci0.html . If you look at the charts you can see that at midday the temperature is just less than 24 degrees celsius only 2 degrees less that the daily peak. Half the daily peak is reached by 6 am.

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You did provide that, and you apparently didn't bother reading. The text accompanying the charts states that they are an example and that this will vary by a few factors. If the example they gave was valid for everywhere, then that might mean something, but as it is just an example, it is evidence...of one possible situation.

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It is not possible for cows to cause overheating of the water in a cold desert. Also I would describe any cold area that does not receive very much rainfall a cold and arid area or a cold desert rather than desert as the default meaning for desert is hot rather than mild or cold probably because hot deserts cover more of the earth's surface:

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I don't particularly care whether you want to call some area a desert or not. A desert has a definition, and the area I am talking about is called a desert in fact and by definition. If you want to argue about something where you change the definition to suit your argument...go right ahead, it's the internet. I'm talking about a desert, though.

As for saying that it is not possible for cows to cause overheating of the water in a cold desert, that's....hard to say anything about, since you aren't clear as to what you mean by a cold desert. You are right that cows don't cause overheating if the temperature isn't hot. They do cause overheating in the deserts around here, but whether or not you call this a cold desert....how can anybody be sure?

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The problem is that the trout have not yet evolved enough to withstand the heat of the desert sun and fencing off the river banks is unlikely to substantially reduce the water temperature for the reasons I have provided.

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Too bad. This is well established. I'm not even sure what reasons you have provided, but I'm sorry the facts on the ground don't live up to the majesty of your theories.

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I put it to you, once again, that there are not a large number of tall trees lining the majority of the desert rivers and streams and even if there were the sun drives the water temperature by heating the air and water and it has most of its impact around midday when trees provide little to no shade.

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Ooo, your conjectures have failed you once again. Peruse southern Idaho using Google Earth. Wherever you see green vegetation, you are looking at tall vegetation, and that is where water is. I've used that technique to figure out where I'd be able to re-load on water on cross-desert trips. There is a small amount of water that is not surrounded by vegetation, and I'm not quite sure why. Most of those structures are man-made, and may be far too recent to have any vegetation growing, or they may be totally ephemeral (the Inside Lakes, which, though large in area, are only an inch or two deep when full).

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If I was looking at all of the species of (hot) desert fish native to he U.S., including the endangered species, I'd have to investigate each species to determine which ones are most adapted for the conditions.

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Do so, and report back with your findings.

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Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker

That's a pretty good definition of fascism. I hadn't seen it when I went looking for a concise definition of the term. Your views of the animal kingdom follow all of that pretty much perfectly, except for the business part (as animals don't have any formal economy or markets). That has also been the disney view in films like Bambi and The Lion King: Every animal species has its place in a heirarchy from greater to lesser. The glory of an animal is in the animal knowing its place and acting accordingly. Some are humble, some are proud, but each has a designated place and is to be judged by its place. The meek must be meek, and they are exalted for it. The mighty must be mighty, and they are condemned for it. Those animals that violate the bounds attributed to their species are considered abberations, so deer or cows that eat chicks are deviants because a true member of that species would never kill anything, other than plants, directly. In fact, you have suggested that they may not kill plants, either, except as a deviant behavior.

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I can't imagine how stopping innocent animals from being murdered could possibly turn the planet into a fascist dictatorship thus your position is barking mad. However, allowing humans to indiscriminately kill any animal or plant beneath them definitely could i.e. your view of the animal and plant kingdoms shows a callous and flagrant disregard for all forms of life beneath humans. You seem to view yourself as mighty and eager to take from anything you view as meek and beneath you.

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Originally Posted by FunkyDexter

Are you familiar with the work of David Ike?

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Not really, why do you ask?

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Originally Posted by Witis

...your view of the animal and plant kingdoms shows a callous and flagrant disregard for all forms of life beneath humans.

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Tell that to lion when he kills and eats the gazelle.

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Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker

You did provide that, and you apparently didn't bother reading. The text accompanying the charts states that they are an example and that this will vary by a few factors. If the example they gave was valid for everywhere, then that might mean something, but as it is just an example, it is evidence...of one possible situation.

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I also indicated that the data you posted did not include daily temperature and U.V. charts. So unless you have any better data I can only refer to my source.

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Originally Posted by Witis

It is not possible for cows to cause overheating of the water in a cold desert. Also I would describe any cold area that does not receive very much rainfall a cold and arid area or a cold desert rather than desert as the default meaning for desert is hot rather than mild or cold probably because hot deserts cover more of the earth's surface:

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I don't particularly care whether you want to call some area a desert or not. A desert has a definition, and the area I am talking about is called a desert in fact and by definition. If you want to argue about something where you change the definition to suit your argument...go right ahead, it's the internet. I'm talking about a desert, though.

As for saying that it is not possible for cows to cause overheating of the water in a cold desert, that's....hard to say anything about, since you aren't clear as to what you mean by a cold desert. You are right that cows don't cause overheating if the temperature isn't hot. They do cause overheating in the deserts around here, but whether or not you call this a cold desert....how can anybody be sure?

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If there is an issue regarding fish dying because the water is getting too warm then you can be sure that you are referring to a hot desert. Is the desert marked on the map I posted?

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Originally Posted by Witis

The problem is that the trout have not yet evolved enough to withstand the heat of the desert sun and fencing off the river banks is unlikely to substantially reduce the water temperature for the reasons I have provided.

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Too bad. This is well established. I'm not even sure what reasons you have provided, but I'm sorry the facts on the ground don't live up to the majesty of your theories.

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I will continue to dispute your stated belief that fencing off a few river banks covered with a bit of green vegetation substantially reduces the water temperature at all, and that true desert fish need shade to survive.

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Originally Posted by Witis

I put it to you, once again, that there are not a large number of tall trees lining the majority of the desert rivers and streams and even if there were the sun drives the water temperature by heating the air and water and it has most of its impact around midday when trees provide little to no shade.

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Ooo, your conjectures have failed you once again. Peruse southern Idaho using Google Earth. Wherever you see green vegetation, you are looking at tall vegetation, and that is where water is. I've used that technique to figure out where I'd be able to re-load on water on cross-desert trips. There is a small amount of water that is not surrounded by vegetation, and I'm not quite sure why. Most of those structures are man-made, and may be far too recent to have any vegetation growing, or they may be totally ephemeral (the Inside Lakes, which, though large in area, are only an inch or two deep when full).

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I am not convinced. If you want me to look at something please at least post a link with the map open to Idaho and set up the way you want it and a link confirming that green = tall trees not just grass or shrubs.

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Originally Posted by Niya

Tell that to lion when he kills and eats the gazelle.

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I prefer it when they eat snakes like that:
http://www.irinaafrica.com/en/files/...-leopard-2.jpg

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Originally Posted by Witis

I prefer it when they eat snakes like that:

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The lions don't care what you prefer. They'll probably kill you too if you give them a chance.