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Yeah, I feel like that. I think they were primarily discouraging mask use because they didn't want a run on them to deprive the health services.Quote:
I am pretty sure they said that to reassure the population because we didn't have masks.
edit> That's what happens when you don't notice that a whole page of posts have been added since you read the thread last. You quote a post a whole page old.
That still doesn't make sense to me.Quote:
Originally Posted by dreammanor
The CDC (as well as other countries) are reporting, across the board, that death rates have gone up over the past few months vs the same period last year, and the growth has been outside the margin of error/possible random flux from year to year. If this highly contagious virus was going around the US last year, the numbers should be fairly similar, or even lower right now since people are taking percautions like social distancing and wearing masks.
Also, random question here: but if the virus came from bats like has been suggested, I wonder if it is possible that the amounts being found in these sewage tests could have been from people with bats and the general cleaning of the cages. Were the samples confirmed to have been from humans, or is it possible it came from another animal that the virus normally spreads through?
This looks like misinterpretation of information to me, we know that the virus and many others circulate in animals this is not new information and they will circulate in animals outside of China as well as inside.Quote:
The new crown virus may not have originated in China. It has existed all over the world, but it is in a dormant state;
That doesn't change the fact what happened in China was that the Virus mutated and became transmissible to Humans.
This fact has been used by many to then bash China and try to fix all the blame for what has happened on them and while China is not blameless, for many of us my country included our own politicians pandemic planning and response has been lacking and has been in major factor in the spread of the Virus.
The virus mutated to become what we now know as Covid-19, so its not the same as the virus in animals although related, and yes Scientists can tell the difference through genetic markers.Quote:
Also, random question here: but if the virus came from bats like has been suggested, I wonder if it is possible that the amounts being found in these sewage tests could have been from people with bats and the general cleaning of the cages. Were the samples confirmed to have been from humans, or is it possible it came from another animal that the virus normally spreads through?
Both Spain and Italy had large numbers of "casual workers" going to and fro from China for years. That's the accepted explanation for the sewage sample testing results.
But wouldn't we have seen more cases and an outbreak then? Like if it was even in China a year ago, shouldn't we have been seeing outbreaks and increased numbers of death then?Quote:
Originally Posted by dilettante
Or are you thinking the virus mutated to be more transmissible during that time, and the version they're detecting is less transmissible?
Seems like a puzzle either way, doesn't it? If it has been lurking around that long it makes you wonder why it took so long to start spreading and producing serious symptoms. Perhaps it was symptomatically more flu-like until a mutation occurred more recently?Quote:
Originally Posted by kfcSmitty
Looks like the pandemic offers cover for a lot of things:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G9Z9idjn0ac
The virus has been around for a long time. There are numerous corona viruses out there. Some infect humans, some don't. They are all constantly changing via mutation. Something happened to cause a virus that previously hadn't done anything to humans to start doing something to humans. It happens all the time. Had the characteristics been different, we might have had SARS, which was readily containable and faded out quickly. Instead, we ended up with this one.
As far as I can tell, the real point of all of this is that China doesn't want to be blamed for the virus, and feels that it is because it originated there. In fact, there IS one reason why they might deserve some geographic responsibility, but not cultural responsibility. The reason is that several of these viruses that moved into humans have been shown to have gone through some intermediate animal on the way. While this has not been shown for this virus, and any such intermediate has not been definitively identified, one candidate considered likely is the pangolin. Since that exists only in a small part of the world, then if there WAS an intermediate host, and that intermediate host was the pangolin, then the virus turned into this human-aggressive version in the region where the pangolin lives, and is brought into close contact with people. That's probably China.
Of course, there's a lot of unknown in every step of that pathway.
In a United Nations meeting (perhaps a WHO meeting, before the United States withdrew from WHO), more than 160 countries, including China and Russia, agreed to start investigating the origin of the virus, but the United States refused because the United States believed it would threaten the national security of the United States.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker
As long as the United States does not cooperate with the investigation, the world will never know the true origin of the virus.
If the United States cooperates with the resolutions of the United Nations, then people can clearly know the origin, transmission route and transmission time of the virus.
If scientists can 100% confirm the origin of the virus (for example, it is determined to originate in China) and the route of transmission, then the Chinese government will 100% cooperate fully to formulate strict laws and measures to prevent the next new virus from harming humans.
Although the Chinese government has formulated strict wildlife protection laws based on the COVID-19 epidemic, and has also eliminated some wild animal raw materials from traditional Chinese medicine, does this really solve the problem? I don't think so.
Regardless of whether the virus originated in China, China will assume/bear its own responsibilities. But what about the United States? Is the US still the world leader?
Again: As long as the United States does not cooperate with the investigation, the world will never know the true origin of the virus.
Maybe we should go back and look at #post1, how much of the information we accept is true?
If we continue to anesthetize ourselves with false information, does everything we discuss make sense?
They can't, that's the point. Virology is a chaos engine. We have no idea where the next pandemic will originate. We have no idea what transmission vector(s) it will use. We don't know what the symptoms will be, how virulent it will be or how deadly it will be.Quote:
then the Chinese government will 100% cooperate fully to formulate strict laws and measures to prevent the next new virus from harming humans.
That's why blaming China for this virus is so bloody stupid. It probably originated in China (though we may still find it came from elsewhere) but frankly you could roll a dice as to where the next will come from.
Perhaps China could have had higher hygiene standards in some of it's markets but the same and worse conditions exist throughout Africa and South America. And the West, with it's battery farming techniques and over reliance on hormones and anti-biotics, doesn't get to stand on any moral high ground either - we're just as likely to be the source next time.
@Dil, I think this is why I find it so ridiculous when you accuse people of politicising the virus when they criticise Trump. Trump is the one that's politicising this... again.... and again... and again. People in this thread are simply calling him out on his BS. It's Trump that constantly strives to blame China for it. It's Trump that continues to downplay the impact of it. It's Trump who, until last week, demonised anyone who suggested wearing masks or pursuing lockdowns. It's Trump who holds mass indoor rallies (or tries to) in the middle of a mass epidemic and wanted us all to go to church for Easter. It's Trump that put his fingers in his ears and yelled "Nothing to see here - move along".
I think Trump Derangement Syndrome definitely exists. But I think the symptoms are the exact opposite of what you think they are.
Hi FunkyDexter, thank you very much for understanding my point of view. I post some comments searching for the origin of the virus not to shirk responsibility for China. In fact, the Chinese government and Chinese people have already done what they can do. Not only that, China is also actively producing anti-epidemic materials for the world. A large number of materials are given away for free, especially to poor countries.
From March 1 to May 31, China exported anti-epidemic materials to 200 countries and regions, including 70.6 billion masks, 340 million protective suits, 115 million goggles, 96,700 ventilators, and 225 million sets of test kits, 40.29 million infrared thermometers.
I'm proud of my country.
I post some comments searching for the origin of the virus in order to find a really effective way to defend against the virus. Although China has successfully controlled the virus (my children have been in school for several months and the public swimming pool next to my residence has been open for several weeks), the world is still suffering from the virus . Finding the origin of the virus may not really control the virus, but it can facilitate scientists to correct statistical data (such as infection rate and mortality rate) to make more effective protection guidelines. In addition, it can also effectively avoid the next virus outbreak (at least can provide some reference experience).
There are always people here who guess others with malicious intent.
I'm very busy, but I still take the time to post some comments on the Chat forum, I want to provide some information from a Chinese perspective. I got a lot of help from vbForums, and I hope to do something for this forum.
In fact, I don't care about others criticizing and slandering China, because the outside world has been slandering and humiliating China for decades. We've be used to it.
The answer is NO! Trump abrogated that responsibility. We may be big and powerful in many ways and Trump uses that to bully other nations into doing things but that is not leading.Quote:
Is the US still the world leader?
Well, it certainly comes across that way when you repeatedly insinuate that the virus came from somewhere else. There doesn't appear to be any question in the scientific literature, the question only appears to exist among those with a more political bent.Quote:
Originally Posted by dreammanor
Yeah, that's clear. The Economist has suggested that the exported materials came with strings attached. The strings were essentially: Don't criticize us.Quote:
I'm proud of my country.
Why? How would the origin have anything to do with defending against it? At this point, it's global and ubiquitous, so you aren't keeping it out. If the origin isn't bats, then so what? If this particular one didn't come from bats, there are plenty more in bats, thanks in part to their unusual immune system and lifestyle. The only thing that helps with is searching for the next one, but groups, including the research institution in Wuhan, are already doing that, and have been for a long time....didn't help this time, though.Quote:
I post some comments searching for the origin of the virus in order to find a really effective way to defend against the virus.
Yeah? How?Quote:
Finding the origin of the virus may not really control the virus, but it can facilitate scientists to correct statistical data (such as infection rate and mortality rate) to make more effective protection guidelines. In addition, it can also effectively avoid the next virus outbreak (at least can provide some reference experience).
Why don't you produce some materials with strings?Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker
Why your president and secretary of state are constantly criticizing other countries, especially China. Because the United States has many citizens like you (even if you are not his supporter). Your prejudice stems from your lack of knowledge. As long as you wait patiently for a few years, you will understand a lot of things that you did not understand.
Edit:
When China exports some simple supplies, you laugh at its lack of technical content. When China exports technical products (such as Huawei 5G communication products), your government says that these products threaten your national security. What kind of products do you want China to export?
Edit2:
I have more knowledge about viruses than ordinary people, so I have been thinking and searching for the true origin of the virus(because this is more meaningful than pure gossip, like a detective case), and any information about this will be posted to this thread (even if the information is false , can also be used as material for discussion).
This thread was originally about new coronavirus outbreak in Wuhan, China, and I'm the only Chinese who responded here, I'm here to clarify some rumors (such as the rumors in #post1) is completely necessary. If you do not want to see information about China or do not want to see my comments, then you as a moderator can lock this thread, and then open a new thread without Chinese participation to discuss the COVID-19 epidemic in the United States and Europe.
Even if the virus was found to have come from overcooking shrimp in Australia... it wouldn't make any difference. It's everywhere now and we have to deal with it.
When I talk about the origin of the virus, I just want to discuss how to deal with it. But I have not grasped the exact evidence and information, and I dare not draw conclusions easily (what kind of measures), because these imprecise conclusions and measures will affect people's health or even life. In fact, I have hinted my views and measures in this thread.Quote:
Originally Posted by dilettante
My wife's parents and family are in Wuhan. When the epidemic occurred, I was always instructing them how to protect themselves. Even if my measures are not correct, they will not blame me.
Are you suggesting I weave something? I'm not much of a weaver.Quote:
Originally Posted by dreammanor
It's what he does. The secretary of state is a different matter, but don't expect anything else out of Trump. Division is what he is explicitly running on. Without an enemy, he is nothing, so he needs somebody to be against to make up for the lack of what he is for.Quote:
Why your president and secretary of state are constantly criticizing other countries, especially China.
That may be true, or it may not. I may be better informed about the world than you are, though. The problem is, you can't prove it one way or the other. You assume that those who don't see things your way base their views on ignorance. That's an impossible position to defend effectively, since it becomes untenable if you, yourself, are ignorant, yet the position practically assumes that everybody must be.Quote:
Your prejudice stems from your lack of knowledge. As long as you wait patiently for a few years, you will understand a lot of things that you did not understand.
That's a weird argument. You say that I laugh at a lack of technical content. When did I do that? Then you object to something that my government said, which you already recognized I don't agree with. So, you then ask a question not based on my views, but based on attributing to me a statement you made up and a statement that you already said I disagree with. That doesn't quite rise to the level of a strawman argument.Quote:
When China exports some simple supplies, you laugh at its lack of technical content. When China exports technical products (such as Huawei 5G communication products), your government says that these products threaten your national security. What kind of products do you want China to export?
I have no problem with your comments. I just don't always agree with them, and when I don't agree with them I say so. That's the nature of the thread.Quote:
This thread was originally about new coronavirus outbreak in Wuhan, China, and I'm the only Chinese who responded here, I'm here to clarify some rumors (such as the rumors in #post1) is completely necessary. If you do not want to see information about China or do not want to see my comments, then you as a moderator can lock this thread, and then open a new thread without Chinese participation to discuss the COVID-19 epidemic in the United States and Europe.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dilettante
But the point is that its origins are irrelevant at this point. Let's say that it originated with overcooking shrimp. OK, so now what? How does that help deal with it now? Does that mean we stop over cooking shrimp? We still have a pandemic to deal with. At this point I don't care if the virus was caused by some raw bats, over cooked shrimp, or if because on March 27, 2019 I farted into the wind instead of with it... the fact of the matter remains, there's a lot of people sick, the worst is yet to come, and this is going to play right into the hands of the Republicans come November.Quote:
Originally Posted by dreammanor
-tg
It's true. The Red shirts want Trump gone as much as their partners in crime in the Blue shirts. So of course they try to lay it all at his door. Both teams in the Globalist Neoliberal League are out Stridin' For Biden. Colonial powers don't give up easily.Quote:
Originally Posted by techgnome
I've read many of your remarks. Obviously, I would not think you know the world better than me. The reason why I did not refute you is because of the following two points:Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker
(1) I don't have much time. You should remember that I once said something rude to FunkyDexter and others in a thread because I had a lot of things to do, but I had to reply to some of your comments. So I became irritable and unreasonable. Since then, I always remind myself to minimize the meaningless comments, especially the dialogue with you.
(2) The knowledge between me and you is unequal (completely unequal). I basically understand all the information you know, but most of the information I know you do not know, and I have no time and obligation to provide you with a lot of information.
I once said to TysonLPrice: "Americans have more creativity, and Chinese have better judgment." I'd like to give you this sentence as well.
I don't remember where I heard this, but it seems relevant:Quote:
Originally Posted by dreammanor
Quote:
The biggest idiot you will meet in life will be the person that thinks they know it all.
You are right. You have used the word idiot in your comments many times, but I have never seen any valuable comments you make in this forum.Quote:
Originally Posted by kfcSmitty
Have fun.
I know I'm right. I'm never wrong. The knowledge between me and you is unequal (completely unequal). I basically understand all the information you know, but most of the information I know you do not know, and I have no time and obligation to provide you with a lot of information.Quote:
Originally Posted by dreammanor
I have not said that the knowledge between me and you is not equal, because I do not know you. My only impression of you is that you have used the word "idiot" many times in your comments to me.Quote:
Originally Posted by kfcSmitty
But I have read a lot of comments from Shaggy Hiker, so I can judge that the knowledge between me and him is not equal. His arrogance and prejudice made me unwilling to teach him more knowledge.
I will never like you make some meaningless comments without knowing others.
Yes, I am choosing something completely meaningless to argue about, but Google disagrees with you: https://www.google.com/search?q=site...y+intext:idiotQuote:
Originally Posted by dreammanor
In another thread of mine, you said the word "idiot" twice, and now you are saying it for the third time. I also said this word, but only for those politicians, and I seemed to delete my comment soon.Quote:
Originally Posted by kfcSmitty
Shaggy Hiker often said that I need to come up with evidence and facts to refute him. But he never produced evidence. For example, I said that traces of virus were found in Brazil's sewage (I provided links and pictures). His reply was "As far as I can tell, the real point of all of this is that China doesn't want to be blamed for the virus..."
If he disagrees with me, he could directly say "No". Or if he could provide further evidence of opposition, such as the latest evidence that could more accurately prove that the virus originated in China. Then this thread would become knowledgeable and interesting, and had the value of reading. But he didn't do it. He made malicious guesses many times.
IMO, that was an arrogance and ignorance, just like the current US government. Maybe he supports the Democratic Party, but the Democratic Party is also arrogant and ignorant. I can see the US government and other parties attacking China almost every day.
I saw in this thread that some people are as arrogant and prejudiced as the US government. In fact, China has not been the one 100 years ago. The changes in China is beyond all of your imagination.
someone's a bit cranky today.
-tg
Quote:
Originally Posted by dreammanor
Which thread might that be? I've found these that you made and I replied to:
http://www.vbforums.com/showthread.p...-Kong-in-1992/
http://www.vbforums.com/showthread.p...the-VB6-forum/
Neither of which I say that. Please show me the posts where I call you an idiot so I can confirm/deny based on the context.
Someone's more than a bit cranky. Apparently, I have even less time, though, because I was elsewhere.
I will say that I was quite entertained reading all that. Dreammanor, you appear to be so convinced that your understanding of other people is infallible that you are misunderstanding what they are saying. You put that quote of mine down to arrogance? That missed the point by such a wide margin it's not even offensive.
Still, you do make one good point. My statement was opinion. I was also loose in the use of a subject, as I conflated the anger China expresses over being seen as the source for the virus with your statements, which also seem to be trying to find the source as long as it is ANYWHERE other than China. Therefore, I was conflating you with China, which may not be accurate. Still, it was opinion. If you want references...I'm afraid they are in print, and whether or not they are online in a fashion that is accessible...well, probably not. I would expect that there are paywalls in the way, if the journal is even available in China. If you have access to the latest two editions of Scientific American, there are some articles in there you'd find interesting (well, one of them, but I can't say whether it was the latest or the one before that). If you're looking for somebody as a source, they had an article with an extensive discussion of the hunt for corona viruses, particularly by one of the researchers in the lab in Wuhan that has long been working on the search. I expect that she'd be the source you're looking for.
The moron in chief strikes again :mad:
"Trump administration sends letter withdrawing U.S. from World Health Organization over coronavirus response".
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world...7ce_story.html
Just how absolutely asinine is that given there is a world wide pandemic? My greatest hope when it comes to Trump is he loses the election, doesn't throw the country into conflict disputing the election, and we can put this stuff back together.
In the article the USA has to give one year's notice to drop out. Maybe we can stop that with a new President...
Edit:
I don't know who I replied to...this is not about that post.
Google Translate:Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker
I learned about it 4 months ago, and I also collected relevant information (this is why I think you never provided information beyond my knowledge). I have also collected some new opinions about the origin of the virus in China, but all these data and opinions are not enough to convince me, especially about the Wuhan laboratory (A point of view/rumor similar to this point of view/rumor is the Fort Detrick Biological Laboratory, USA. In addition, another evidence that the United States does not cooperate with the investigation is: during the 2019 World Military Games in Wuhan, there were 5 American military athletes suffering from unknown pneumonia, the US government used military aircraft to take these people back to the United States, but refused to disclose any information about these people).
In fact, when there is insufficient evidence to prove that the virus originated in other places, we can only assume that it originated in China, but this cannot be used as a reason for anyone to accuse China, because China is also the victim (even the biggest victim) ), and China has suffered enormous pain and economic losses to prevent the spread of the virus to the world. Regrettably, the United States and some other countries have not fully utilized the buffer time that China has sought, which led to the global spread of the virus. In the eyes of American politicians, there is only politics and elections. As long as they can win the elections, they are even willing to sacrifice the lives of 1 million people.
This epidemic is a global problem. Only when the major countries in the world unite and respond together can we effectively control the continued spread of the epidemic. However, when the epidemic situation is extremely serious, the United States government constantly accuses and humiliates China when it needs China to provide a large amount of anti-epidemic materials, and when it needs China to provide possible vaccines in the future. This shows that the US government has no interest (or ability) to deal with the epidemic. And your accusation of China is very similar to your government, which caused my anger.
When the United States kept accusing China, China fully agreed to launch a joint investigation into the origin of the virus at the United Nations conference, but the United States refused. The United States only wants to investigate China, not itself. The United States hopes to reduce China's influence by humiliating China, but the stupid behavior of the United States government has seriously damaged the prestige of the United States, the world's most powerful country, and made it almost impossible for the United States government to control the epidemic. This is why I said that the epidemic in other countries is a natural disaster, while the epidemic in the United States is a man-made disaster.
When the virus was politicized, and when the media was held hostage by politicization and prejudice, most reports and even papers on the virus began to deviate from science, including those written by some experts in Hong Kong to meet the needs of American politics, these papers are full of low-level childish loopholes (they are so stupid that I was shocked, and I can hardly believe that such stupid papers can actually be published). Under such circumstances, it is impossible to find scientific solutions.
(I directly used Google Translate to translate my views into English. I don’t have time to write such a long English, and I don’t have time to correct Google Translate’s mistakes.)
I'm beginning to doubt that even you understand what you believe. I certainly don't, so let me ask: Do you think that I believe that the virus came from the Wuhan lab? I do not. Do you believe I'm accusing China of something? If so, what, cause I certainly don't know.
Did I say you think the virus came from the Wuhan laboratory? I just tell you that I have learned the information and materials about Wuhan Virus Laboratory.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker
When I proposed (guessed) that the virus might be circulating around the world in 2019, you have repeatedly said that this is just a tactic for politicians to shirk responsibility.
When I made these guesses, I was based on a lot of information that I had in China, even things that happened to me. Everything that happened so far is logically in line with my guess. But I still can't draw conclusions, it is always just conjecture.
"As far as I can tell, the real point of all of this is that China doesn't want to be blamed for the virus..." Isn't this maliciously guessing me and blaming China? Maybe my English is indeed too bad so that I can't understand simple English.
Below is the information I just saw. It cannot prove anything. But I learned two important things from it. What useful information can you learn from this video?
Visit Wuhan P4 Lab
I think that's happening both ways. I agree with Shaggy that the Chinese government does seem desperate to show that the virus originated elsewhere and that Dreamanor's links often feel (rightly or wrongly) like they're trying to justify that.Quote:
I was also loose in the use of a subject, as I conflated the anger China expresses over being seen as the source for the virus with your statements, which also seem to be trying to find the source as long as it is ANYWHERE other than China. Therefore, I was conflating you with China, which may not be accurate.
However, I also agree with Dreamanor that there is a concerted effort by certain parties in the West not just to prove that China was the source of the virus but to blame China for the virus. I suspect that, to Dreamanor as the only Chinese voice in this thread, a lot of the posts feel like they're trying to justify that blaming. It becomes difficult not to conflate "the current GOP" with "America and Americans" (and similar parties in the UK).
Here's the thing though, I feel that the voices in this thread aren't seeking to blame China. In fact, Shaggy's first post (post 4) was a challenge meant to debunk some of the "China = Bad" myths that started this thread. I also feel like most of the voices in this thread would agree with Dreamanor's criticisms of the stances of the current GOP, they just don't want the criticism to be applied to "America and Americans". I can understand why Dreamanor is losing sight of that in the noise, though, particularly given that he's operating in a second language.
Here's where I come down:
- I think there's value in a genuine scientific effort to find the original source. It may not help much with this outbreak but it can hep inform our efforts to deal with future outbreaks.
- I think governments at both ends of the globe have tried to politicise that search. I feel that is damaging and could literally lead to excess deaths in the future.
- At present the scientific search indicates China as the most likely source though it is yet to be empirically proved.
- No matter where the source is ultimately found, assigning blame based on that offers nothing.
- What we should be assigning blame for is the politicisation of that search and both sets of governments are guilty of that.
In the UK you can be both proud of your country and critical of the government that is running it, we make the same distinction when criticising China, we can criticise the government but that doesn't mean we criticise the whole country, Dreammanor you seem to take some of the comments that maybe critical of China personally, and that probably a culture thing we are used to separation of country and government in the WestQuote:
I'm proud of my country.
Trump keeps accusing China, but Trump doesn't not represent everyone in the USAQuote:
When the United States kept accusing China
To some extent China has been trying put out other possibilities as to the origin of the Virus, but this is as much about politics and the response from a number of western populist politicians including Trump trying to Blame China for the Virus, as if a whole Country can be responsible for something.Quote:
When I proposed (guessed) that the virus might be circulating around the world in 2019, you have repeatedly said that this is just a tactic for politicians to shirk responsibility.
To FunkyDexter, NeedSomeAnswers,
(Google Translate)
1. I did not equate the US government, the US media with the American people. But Shaggy's arrogance and prejudice made me see the shadow of the US government.
2. Finding and studying the origin of the virus will not help China's anti-epidemic, but it will help the United States and other countries that are still suffering from virus infestation. It can also clarify that the virus did not originate in the Wuhan laboratory.
3. Initially, the Chinese government and all scientists around the world did not suspect that the virus originated in Wuhan because the virus was found in the sewers of the Wuhan seafood trading market. However, when the United States and its allies began to claim compensation from China, the Chinese government and scientists began to pay attention to the origin of the virus. I think this is very reasonable. Now that we have reached the point of being claimed by others, don't we need scientists to prove the origin of the virus?
4. Spain, Italy and Brazil found virus samples in sewer sewage in 2019, and Wuhan virus samples were also found in the sewer. This strongly proves that the Wuhan seafood trading market is not necessarily the source of the virus. The source of the virus may be elsewhere in China or elsewhere in the world.
5. There are reports that samples of new coronavirus have been found in a traditional Chinese medicine that uses bats and pangolins as raw materials (I just collected the information source, but I have not checked the authenticity). In my opinion, the possibility that the virus originated from traditional Chinese medicine is much greater than that from the Wuhan seafood trading market. But there is a problem: these traditional Chinese medicines have been used in China for many years, why is it suddenly spread in Wuhan? Why is it in Wuhan and not in other provinces of China?
6. After genetic analysis, scientists unanimously believe that viruses cannot be artificially created, but originate from nature. But the U.S. government insisted on investigating the Wuhan Virus Laboratory (the video above shows that the Wuhan Virus Laboratory was established in cooperation with China and France).
7. Since the US government believes that the virus has the possibility of being artificial, why doesn't the US government agree to investigate the Fort Detrick Biological Laboratory closed due to a security incident?
8. When the US government firmly believed that the virus was produced in China, and claimed to claim it, and also rumored that the virus may have been manufactured or leaked by the Wuhan laboratory, the nature of the matter completely changed. At this time, it becomes very necessary to investigate the origin of the virus.
9. China agrees to conduct joint investigations with more than 160 other countries. Doesn't this mean that the Chinese government has not shirk its responsibility? Why did the US government refuse to conduct a joint investigation?
10. The Biological Weapons Convention.
In 2001, the United States was the only country that stood out against the negotiation and verification protocol of the Biological Weapons Convention. Twenty years have passed. Although the international community has unanimously called for a negotiated protocol, the US has always exclusively blocked the restart of negotiations. The United States not only has a large number of biological laboratories including Fort Detrick in the country, but also has established a large number of biological laboratories around the world, some of which are located around China. These laboratories continue to carry out activities, the true nature of which has caused more and more doubts. Is the US really complying with the Biological Weapons Convention? Because the United States obstructed the establishment of a verification mechanism in the Convention, this question has never been answered.
Both China and other countries have called on the United States to listen to the international community’s appeal, show greater transparency, and refrain from continuing to obstruct the verification protocol and restart negotiations.
I have consistently criticized the position of the US government, but leaving that aside, this is a long thread. Can you show me some example of either arrogance or prejudice? I'm not sure what I'd be arrogant about, and I'm not sure who I'd be prejudiced against...or for, I guess.Quote:
Originally Posted by dreammanor
To the first sentence: How? I don't believe that knowing the origin makes even a slight difference, and nothing I have read in the scientific literature suggests that the source would make any difference, so how would it help?Quote:
2. Finding and studying the origin of the virus will not help China's anti-epidemic, but it will help the United States and other countries that are still suffering from virus infestation. It can also clarify that the virus did not originate in the Wuhan laboratory.
As to the second sentence, nobody but conspiracy theorists suggest that the virus originated in, or escaped from the Wuhan lab. That was one of the points in the article I mentioned.
Only for politics. It is otherwise of only academic interest. The United States is not seriously claiming compensation from China. The president of the United States is falling further and further behind in the polls for the election in November. The only way he knows how to act is to attack somebody else, and China is handy. You can ignore anything he says, he doesn't care about it, he just needs to get certain elements of society to show up to vote. In the US, a very large percentage of the population doesn't vote, so it's not enough to be popular with more people, you have to get them to show up. Trump has never tried to be popular with a majority, and he isn't. His strategy is to be abhorrent to the majority, but to get his people to show up. Don't be thinking that what he says has anything to do with China, Mexico, or anywhere else. Trump cares about Trump and that's all he cares about. He'll say whatever he thinks will get his people to show up to vote, and that group is not the majority of US citizens.Code:3. Initially, the Chinese government and all scientists around the world did not suspect that the virus originated in Wuhan because the virus was found in the sewers of the Wuhan seafood trading market. However, when the United States and its allies began to claim compensation from China, the Chinese government and scientists began to pay attention to the origin of the virus. I think this is very reasonable. Now that we have reached the point of being claimed by others, don't we need scientists to prove the origin of the virus?
[/QUOTE]Quote:
4. Spain, Italy and Brazil found virus samples in sewer sewage in 2019, and Wuhan virus samples were also found in the sewer. This strongly proves that the Wuhan seafood trading market is not necessarily the source of the virus. The source of the virus may be elsewhere in China or elsewhere in the world.
Keep in mind that the virus has probably been around for hundreds, if not thousands of years. It didn't suddenly appear on the world stage. What changed was that it was able to infect humans. Prior to that, it was circulating somewhere, probably in bats. There are LOTS of corona viruses in bat populations. The Wuhan lab is at least partially focused on tracking those viruses and looking for candidates that could make the jump. When they do make the jump, history suggests that they go through some intermediate animal, camels (MERS), civets (SARS), and possibly pangolins (COVID-19), though that last one is not yet known. Others have gone through dogs and pigs, not necessarily ending up in humans. The point that is often made is that any virus that can infect a second type of animal is a virus that is sufficiently versatile that it could easily jump one more time into humans, especially if the intermediate species are similar to humans. However, the virus was there for a very long time before it made that jump.
As far as I have read, we can identify viruses that appear capable of jumping from species to species, but we have no means to predict when or if any particular virus will jump to humans. That would be useful to know, and we may get there. We aren't there now, though. The few samples suggesting the virus was in sewage could turn out to be false positives, or could turn out to be the virus prior to the change that allowed it to jump to humans. Less likely, it might be identical to the current virus. That would be both terrific and disturbing. It would be terrific because we'd have a chance to learn something revolutionary about how viruses behave. It would be disturbing because what we find out could make us much less likely to be able to do anything about future pandemics.
That would be the same issue: If you can find a pre-jump version, you can compare the two. If it turns out there was a mutation, then you can study the exact change that took the virus from ineffective against humans to very effective. It could be a combination of a couple different mutations, but it likely won't be more than a few. Of course, if you find a pre-jump version that isn't at all different from the infective version, then you have a problem.Code:5. There are reports that samples of new coronavirus have been found in a traditional Chinese medicine that uses bats and pangolins as raw materials (I just collected the information source, but I have not checked the authenticity). In my opinion, the possibility that the virus originated from traditional Chinese medicine is much greater than that from the Wuhan seafood trading market. But there is a problem: these traditional Chinese medicines have been used in China for many years, why is it suddenly spread in Wuhan? Why is it in Wuhan and not in other provinces of China?
The reason I say it doesn't matter where it arose is because a mutation can happen anywhere and anytime. No place is more likely than any other place for a mutation. If this particular virus turns out to have been all over the world, then does it really matter where the key mutation happened? Of course, it isn't JUST the mutation, as the mutation has to happen in a place where there are humans to infect. For that reason, higher population densities (cities) are more likely to source outbreaks just because the mutated virus is more likely to find a host.
And the US. The lab is doing valuable, global, work.Quote:
6. After genetic analysis, scientists unanimously believe that viruses cannot be artificially created, but originate from nature. But the U.S. government insisted on investigating the Wuhan Virus Laboratory (the video above shows that the Wuhan Virus Laboratory was established in cooperation with China and France).
Or, you can just join us in understanding that Trump will say whatever he thinks will help his chances of getting reelected.Quote:
8. When the US government firmly believed that the virus was produced in China, and claimed to claim it, and also rumored that the virus may have been manufactured or leaked by the Wuhan laboratory, the nature of the matter completely changed. At this time, it becomes very necessary to investigate the origin of the virus.
They may have agreed, but when Australia first suggested it, the reaction was far from agreement. The US government likely doesn't care about an investigation. The US president likely doesn't want one. To be clear, he wouldn't be opposed to an investigation, but it does not help him at all if China is seen to be cooperating. He needs an opponent, not an ally.Quote:
9. China agrees to conduct joint investigations with more than 160 other countries. Doesn't this mean that the Chinese government has not shirk its responsibility? Why did the US government refuse to conduct a joint investigation?
Good, maybe it will work out. We should have signed on years ago.Quote:
10. The Biological Weapons Convention.
In 2001, the United States was the only country that stood out against the negotiation and verification protocol of the Biological Weapons Convention. Twenty years have passed. Although the international community has unanimously called for a negotiated protocol, the US has always exclusively blocked the restart of negotiations. The United States not only has a large number of biological laboratories including Fort Detrick in the country, but also has established a large number of biological laboratories around the world, some of which are located around China. These laboratories continue to carry out activities, the true nature of which has caused more and more doubts. Is the US really complying with the Biological Weapons Convention? Because the United States obstructed the establishment of a verification mechanism in the Convention, this question has never been answered.
Both China and other countries have called on the United States to listen to the international community’s appeal, show greater transparency, and refrain from continuing to obstruct the verification protocol and restart negotiations.
Well, that was too freeeeaaakin' long.
So much Trump Derangement Syndrome in here!
Biden says Trump failed to hold China accountable on coronavirus
I guess a severe case of TDS causes one to argue the same points both ways.Quote:
(Reuters) - Americans are paying the price for President Donald Trump’s failure to hold China to account over the coronavirus pandemic, presumed Democratic presidential nominee Joe Biden said on Friday, as the two campaigns spar over who can better confront challenges posed by Beijing.
...
“The uncomfortable truth is that Donald Trump left America exposed and vulnerable to this pandemic. He ignored the warnings of health experts and intelligence agencies and put his trust in China’s leaders instead,” Biden said in a video ad posted online.
It's funny that those so clearly on the right and are full-on Trump supporters always need to find some flame-baity way to talk to people. Constant terms made up to just try and get a rise out of others.Quote:
Originally Posted by dilettante
They're so blind that they literally read 1 sentence saying
"Trump did not hold China accountable"
and another saying
"Trump trusted China too much [and thus is not holding them accountable], and ignored our experts"
and see them as contradictory comments.
Maybe a little too much Dore watching for you Mr. Dil ;)
*Edit* The over the top tone I hoped would point out this was written sarcastically and in jest, but just in case I am adding this note.
I don't think Dilettante is on the right...or the left. He seems like he's equal opportunity opposition.
Probably close. Not sure myself.
I saw Trump as the flaming bag of crap that disgusted voters left on the establishment's doorstep. The more we can get them to stomp on it the harder we can laugh and enjoy our success.
I was a little surprised you put that much effort into a response that was already dismissed before you hit the Post button. He has already clearly explained to you that he already knows everything you know and much more.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker
I wonder if he's been reading a copy of Battle Programming...Quote:
Originally Posted by wes4dbt
-tg
I always get that one confused with Dianetics.Quote:
Originally Posted by techgnome
I should be shocked that people are so easily duped into puppets working against their own best interests. Ah well.
But we have a fictional hero. She's honed, she's hardened, she's semi-feral...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vSZNe9wZVlw
... and now she's experienced and even more determined.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Rm3twwVy1s
To All :
Too long, I need to take time to reply slowly in the future.
Have you paid attention to one detail: In fact, I never(rarely) mentioned the name of the US president, I just said the US government. ;)
In addition, I want to say that scientists have more professional and detailed information, but programmers seem to have stronger logic. This is why I am interested in analyzing and tracing the origin of the virus.
All of my analysis and conjecture are based on logic and some very basic info, which is not verified true and false data, I only use my long-term accumulated scientific knowledge and analytical experience to subjectively judge true and false. In fact, my analysis and speculation have nothing to do with politics, but Shaggy puts the political hat on my head again and again, which is why I want to fight back against Shaggy.
In terms of scientific knowledge, I have a psychological advantage. I don't think Shaggy has more scientific knowledge than me.
Ummm… he's an actual scientist... so there's that.Quote:
I don't think Shaggy has more scientific knowledge than me.
One of those was long. The other one was REALLY short. There were a lot of chapters, but only two or three might have made it to two pages, and several were only a sentence or two.Quote:
Originally Posted by dilettante
I'm not sure how I became Dreammanor's boogeyman. That's pretty cool.
My vbForums is abnormal all day and I cannot log in. I changed my password again and can log in now. Maybe my comments caused dissatisfaction from some bystanders, so they attacked my account.
I don't want to continue the debate anymore, it makes me very tired. Since 2019, things in Hong Kong have made me extremely emotional, and then COVID-19 appeared again. Every day on the Internet is something sad.
Now there is another sad thing: a new type of unknown pneumonia has appeared in Kazakhstan, and the lethality rate is much more serious than COVID-19. Of course, there are also conspiracy theories, but this time the target of the conspiracy theory is the United States.
The following picture was found on the Internet, I did not check the authenticity: (It seems that the possibility of fraud is greater)
I will not participate in this thread anymore. I apologize to everyone I offended.
You are truly a paranoid person.Quote:
Originally Posted by dreammanor
for the first part he is not, there was a problem today ...http://www.vbforums.com/showthread.php?887747-Trouble-logging-in
for the second part, he is just in a need of attention
Attachment 177877Quote:
Originally Posted by dreammanor
Thanks, I never have laugh so much to this kind of idiocy.
Let me break my promise and say it again. I once said that Chinese traditional medicine has greatly reduced the scientific literacy(thinking, quality and ability) of Chinese people. IMO, only about 1% of people in China have "scientific literacy(thinking, quality and ability)." According to the figures given by US official agencies, the proportion of Americans with scientific literacy is 15%. I said in previous comments that I think the proportion of people with scientific literacy in the United States is 7%. But after this period of observation, due to religious factors, the proportion is much lower than my expectation. IMO, it's only 1%.
I didn't see any person in this thread meeting the standard of scientific literacy in my mind, that is to say, no one belongs to the 1%. I have not seen anyone introduce some simple basic virus knowledge, I have not seen anyone who has published unique insights on COVID-19, I have not seen anyone who has post professional comments on the measures come from WHO and CDC.
Arrogance, ignorance and prejudice make this thread worthless in discussing and preventing COVID-19, it's just gossip. Of course, this sub-forum was originally a chat.