perl is a form of cgi
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perl is a form of cgi
Adam, it is becoming obvious that you aren't helping your side.Quote:
Originally posted by aknisely
That wasn't your question. Your question was, "what makes VB DB oriented?"
My question was (is) what makes VB DB oriented.
The answer was, "nothing, 85% of its use is with DBs".
See how that works?
You can't say that VB is OO oriented because 85% of its use is with objects. You can say that LangX is OO oriented because it supports classes and inheritance. If no one ever uses LangX for OO, that doesn't affect anything, the language is still OO oriented.
It's like my car, even if it doesn't stay on the pavement, it is still pavement oriented. :)
Perl is a scripting language. That fact that you can use it with CGI is nothing special. It is like using PerlScript for ASPs.Quote:
Originally posted by scoutt
perl is a form of cgi
Perl is a Scripting Language ..
CGI - Common Gateway Interface is a standard by which an application running in a server can service a request from a client.
ISAPI - A Standard like CGI. Here unlike CGI multiple instances of the web application are not spawned there by saving server resources.
Very much so.Quote:
Originally posted by chrisjk
Perl rocks
But I still wouldn't write an OS with it.
Travis, all I can say is that you are a sad programmer.
I remember talking to an ASM programmer a few years ago and he also said: "Why using C/C++ when you can get it even faster by susing ASM".
Does it mean he is right?
There is a trade off. If he is writing a CPU scheduler, then assembly is an infinitely better choice then VB and C++Quote:
Originally posted by Serge
Travis, all I can say that you are a sad programmer.
I remember talking to an ASM programmer a few years ago and he also said: "Why using C/C++ when you can get it even faster by susing ASM".
Does it mean he is right?
Take the project I am working with. As I mentioned before, each monitor has an 8MB footprint. If they had written it in VC++ then each monitor would have a 6MB (or smaller) footprint. And it would be more OO oriented and more portable. It would be a better product.
'Course, if the product was multi-threaded that would help a lot with the memory problems.
Why was in written in VB? Because the guy who wrote it had no formal training in programming. He was learning, and he was able to learn VB faster than C++. He says he doesn't like C++ because of the braces and semicolons.
If I could convince the client, then we could rewrite it and make a better product.
Your question could be answered a number of ways. If your question was "Is there a design or feature of VB makes it DB oriented," then the answer would be "no." It contains database features, but VB isn't designed to be geared specifically towards databases.Quote:
My question was (is) what makes VB DB oriented.
The answer was, "nothing, 85% of its use is with DBs".
See how that works?
If your question was "Based on the usage of VB, is it DB oriented," one might answer "yes," because most VB applications are used for database interaction, assuming Serge's figure of 85% is in the ballpark.
Thus, it all depends on what criterion you need to make something database-oriented -- how people use it, or what it's been designed for.
Then go ahead and convince him. Tell him you think you have a way you could do something better, and that the way you're doing things now is unacceptable to you. But simply because you might write an application better in Language A doesn't mean Language B is useless.Quote:
Originally posted by CiberTHuG
If I could convince the client, then we could rewrite it and make a better product.
The only criteria is design. Just because a hundred people find ways to put round pegs in square holes doesn't mean it was designed to fit. It just means people are creative and pegs are easily kludged.Quote:
Originally posted by aknisely
Thus, it all depends on what criterion you need to make something database-oriented -- how people use it, or what it's been designed for.
85% of VB apps using DBs just means that there is a big demand for DB interfaces.
Yes it was actually. That's one of the major reasons why it exists...Quote:
Originally posted by aknisely
It contains database features, but VB isn't designed to be geared specifically towards databases.
That is what Serge was saying.Quote:
Originally posted by chrisjk
Yes it was actually. That's one of the major reasons why it exists...
What in VB makes it DB oriented?
I don't think that's entirely accurate. It's primary use, as I've been saying, is databases, but it contains many other features that are non-database related.Quote:
Originally posted by chrisjk
Yes it was actually. That's one of the major reasons why it exists...
Guys, Check this out
The fact that the bloke at MS thought, "Hmm, we need something that's easier/better(?) than C is at db interactivity." And they made a pretty good job, dropping a data control on a form is about the hardest part!
And if both serge and I thought this, maybe there is some truth in it
Hehe, you're quoting MS propoganda. :DQuote:
you're contradicting yourself.Quote:
Originally posted by aknisely
I don't think that's entirely accurate. It's primary use, as I've been saying, is databases, but it contains many other features that are non-database related.
right, read thisQuote:
Originally posted by thinktank
Perl is a Scripting Language ..
CGI - Common Gateway Interface is a standard by which an application running in a server can service a request from a client.
ISAPI - A Standard like CGI. Here unlike CGI multiple instances of the web application are not spawned there by saving server resources.
and perl is not a scripting language, It derives from the ubiquitous C programming language and to a lesser extent from sed, awk, the Unix shell, and at least a dozen other tools and languages.Quote:
PHP 4 for Windows comes in two flavours - a CGI executable (php.exe), and several SAPI modules (for exapmle php4isapi.dll). The latter form is new to PHP 4, and provides significantly improved performance and some new functionality. However, please note that the SAPI modules are NOT yet considered to be production quality. The reason for this is that the PHP SAPI modules are using the thread-safe version of the PHP code, which is new to PHP 4, and has not yet been tested and pounded enough to be considered completely stable, and there are actually a few known bugs.
but all in all I agree with you about php and perl. so I'll be quiet now. ;)
No I'm not. Something's primary or intended use may not be its only use.Quote:
Originally posted by chrisjk
you're contradicting yourself.
Ask Larry.Quote:
Originally posted by scoutt
and perl is not a scripting language
I would say it is a scripting language because more times then not, you run it through an interpreter, not a compilier.
Besides, Sed, Awk, and the others are scripting languages. Perl was written in C/C++, yes.
As another example that the market hasn't a clue and shouldn't be used as a measure...
The Ford Explorer is the best selling SUV in America (if not the world). Is it the best SUV on the road? Not by a long shot, and don't even think otherwise.
Admittedly it is cheaper than several other SUVs that are remarkable better. The Hummer, anything from Land Rover, the Toyota LandCruiser. One could argue that the Chevy line is better than the Ford one.
Anyway, just because VB is used so much, doesn't mean it is the best. It just means... well, I won't go into what that analogy implies. ;)
I don't think anyone is saying VB is "the best." You're saying it's for hobbyists; we disagree. We aren't claiming that any one language is "the best."Quote:
Originally posted by CiberTHuG
Anyway, just because VB is used so much, doesn't mean it is the best. It just means... well, I won't go into what that analogy implies. ;)
Good point. And yes, I don't think any language is the best. Perl is my favorite, but I wouldn't use it for certain things.Quote:
Originally posted by aknisely
I don't think anyone is saying VB is "the best." You're saying it's for hobbyists; we disagree. We aren't claiming that any one language is "the best."
It isn't about best, it is about suitability for a purpose. To carry the analogy further: people who are in mini-van denial buy Ford Explorers. I would wager that 9 out 10 (if not more) Ford Explorers will never leave the pavement. Those that do are just for weekend campers, aka hobbyist. And that is all the SUV they need. The telcos and power companies use Ford Explorers for a little light off-road duty, mainly travelling down poorly kept dirty roads to high tension lines.
But when they really need something they move up to Ford Heavy Duty F Series, or Broncos. The military used Jeeps and now Hummers. And I've yet to see a safari show that didn't use Toyotas or Land Rovers.
But the Ford Explorer out sells them. My point is, having market share doesn't mean you are adequately suited for a purpose.
You shouldn't race a Carolla in NASCAR, you shouldn't race a Thunderbird in GT.
Think of it like this... what kind of furniture do you make out of press board or particle board? Disposable furniture. You make $40 book cases that you will throw away in five to ten years.
If you want to make a dinning room table that will last for three generations, you use real wood.
VB is not suited for retail grade applications, unless your buyers are going to dispose of the product in 3 years. And I don't mean upgrade.
If IE had been written in VB, then it would have been completely rewritten in the last (almost) ten years. Same goes for MS Office. If you are making an application for personal use, or you are making an in house application for short term use, then fine, VB is appropriate.
Regretably my client will have to completely re-write this application if they want to keep selling it in 2006.
Anyway.
I can no longer count on my hand how many times you switched your position here ;)Quote:
It isn't about best, it is about suitability for a purpose.
Office was written in C++. What about Web applications? Microsoft's Expedia.com service uses ASP/VB, and it runs fine.Quote:
If IE had been written in VB, then it would have been completely rewritten in the last (almost) ten years. Same goes for MS Office. If you are making an application for personal use, or you are making an in house application for short term use, then fine, VB is appropriate.
Yeah, I get lazy. My position hasn't change. It is just easier to say "VB sucks" then to say "VB is ill suited for mission critical or business retail application development. VB is a hobbyist language."Quote:
Originally posted by aknisely
I can no longer count on my hand how many times you switched your position here ;)
Especially since anything you enjoy coding in VB you will enjoy code more in Perl/Tk. 'Course, if you didn't enjoy it (understand what you were doing), then don't mess with Perl.
Yes, that is what I'm saying. If it had been written in VB it would've had to have been rewritten. As it is, they could fix and add features, but the base engine would live on. They could overhaul, but still that base engine would be there, and allow them to port it to MacOS. If it was in VB we would never see MS Office or IE on the Mac.Quote:
Office was written in C++. What about Web applications? Microsoft's Expedia.com service uses ASP/VB, and it runs fine. [/B]
And though you may think Expedia runs fine, I have a host of complaints with it. Some of them may not even be related to VB, since I imagine the site is very IE-centric.
So? You sacrifice compatibility for ease-of-use.Quote:
Originally posted by CiberTHuG
If it was in VB we would never see MS Office or IE on the Mac
Ease-of-use is in the mind of the programmer. VC++ would be easier then VB since I could use pointers.Quote:
Originally posted by aknisely
So? You sacrifice compatibility for ease-of-use.
As far as I'm concerned, for loops are easier in any other language (that I've worked with).
C++ and Perl will also short-curcuit, making conditionals easier.
That aside, portability is much more important to me then wether or not the programmer gets to use VS. I don't mind there being MS boxes in the world. I just want people to understand, they have a role, and they are not the answer. I guess I could add that "VB is ill suited for cross-platform projects." So if your application is specific to Windows, so be it.
As a news tangent... Wall Street (the SAIC, which is the commitee that manages the NYSE) is changing over to Linux. I'm not sure what they are switching from, I imagine AIX or something else IBM specific. Point to the tangent is, every OS has a role, and NT/W2K is ill suited to handle the NYSE.
I honestly am not sure if it is a good idea to run Linux in this case, but if IBM feels confident about it, let 'em go for it.
The NASDAQ is run by Windows 2000. At least, the Web site is.
Unless they install you app and are tech-savvy, they won't know.Quote:
Originally posted by davem
Well since we are in this VB sucks war... Anyone who has developed a retail program that has been sold in stores - here is a question for you. I am making a program (with VB) and I plan to try and sell it in stores... has anyone done this, will the store's scoff at my program because it was made in VB? Boooo
:(
I think you're all missing something. CiberThug is a LINUX user. He tries to stay within about 100 feet of anything that starts with "Micro". So of course he hates VB. And Expedia is too "IE-centric" as if there is something wrong with that.
I partiallly disagree with those views, but I respect them and I'm not going to sit and argue with him about it. After all, wouldn't it be boring if we all used the same programs and langugaes?
Well, I'm not a Linux user, yet. I'm trying. I'm learning and I'm getting there.Quote:
Originally posted by jpbtennisman
I think you're all missing something. CiberThug is a LINUX user. He tries to stay within about 100 feet of anything that starts with "Micro". So of course he hates VB. And Expedia is too "IE-centric" as if there is something wrong with that.
I hate VB because it serves no purpose for me. For small jobs I can use Perl. For big jobs, well, that is the problem.... to many people are using VB for stuff it shouldn't be used for.
As to being IE-centric. Yes, that is a problem. We have standards. They are not Linux standards, they are not Mozilla/Konquerer/Netscape/Opera standards. They are W3C standards. The point behind them is so everything is in the open and any browser can view any page.
Sun was also heading up an open Java standard, but MS refused to play, wanting to introduce lots of closed MS features. That underminds the point behind a standard.
'Course, it would be differet if MS innovated, introduced a technology. No one can name a single technology that MS has produced and brought to better the world.
Then don't use Vb and quit crying about it.Quote:
I hate VB because it serves no purpose for me. For small jobs I can use Perl. For big jobs, well, that is the problem.... to many people are using VB for stuff it shouldn't be used for.
Expedia isn't just a Web page. It's a Web application. With Web applications, you often have strict requirements on what client software can be used. Since most of Expedia's potential audience uses Internet Explorer, it only makes sense to make your application IE-centric if it adds functionality.Quote:
As to being IE-centric. Yes, that is a problem. We have standards. They are not Linux standards, they are not Mozilla/Konquerer/Netscape/Opera standards. They are W3C standards. The point behind them is so everything is in the open and any browser can view any page.
Tough cookies. Not everyone gets a crack at creating standards.Quote:
Sun was also heading up an open Java standard, but MS refused to play, wanting to introduce lots of closed MS features. That underminds the point behind a standard.
Of course, what about the MS Office Toolbar? You see toolbars everywhere now, and they were first introduced with MS Office in 1991 or something. Or COM? Or DCOM? Or .NET? I'm sure you believe that Microsoft just ripped these things off of other companies, but if you want to be ignorant of the truth, that's your problem.Quote:
'Course, it would be differet if MS innovated, introduced a technology. No one can name a single technology that MS has produced and brought to better the world.
Think of me as trying to improve the entire human race. :)Quote:
Originally posted by aknisely
Then don't use Vb and quit crying about it.
All of that functionality could be achieved with Java, you know. Oh... but that would mean you have cooperated with an open standard, and that your users can use your resources without being dependent on your product.Quote:
Expedia isn't just a Web page. It's a Web application. With Web applications, you often have strict requirements on what client software can be used. Since most of Expedia's potential audience uses Internet Explorer, it only makes sense to make your application IE-centric if it adds functionality.
Microsoft is a corporate drug dealer, nothing less.
Wouldn't be so bad if MS made an open standard. But that would undermind their position since anyone could deal their crack.Quote:
Tough cookies. Not everyone gets a crack at creating standards.
Real companies have no fear of compitetion. Sun is still alive and kicking ass even after making an open standard. And can you believe, people make money off of ANSI C/C++ and Perl, even though they are completely open, cross-platform standards? Wow... can you imagine that? :)
I don't consider the toolbar and improvement to benifet man. It is just a button bar. Wow... another waste of mouse movement.Quote:
Of course, what about the MS Office Toolbar? You see toolbars everywhere now, and they were first introduced with MS Office in 1991 or something. Or COM? Or DCOM? Or .NET? I'm sure you believe that Microsoft just ripped these things off of other companies, but if you want to be ignorant of the truth, that's your problem.
As to COM/DCOM/.NET? Well, as far as I can tell, these are just different generations of the same thing. And while it is a good idea, why do they keep re-inventing it? As to their origins, I don't know. It is possible that MS innovated that idea. Anyone know for sure?
Yeah, well, they choose to use VBSCRIPT and OCX's. They probably run faster than Java. Whether or not there are other things you could have used for a particular project is irrelevant.Quote:
All of that functionality could be achieved with Java, you know.
You asked for innovation: the introduction of something new. The toolbar is something new, something that you might not make use of, but 99% of the real people on this planet who work with Windows software do.Quote:
I don't consider the toolbar and improvement to benifet man. It is just a button bar. Wow... another waste of mouse movement.
COM is for use in one application. DCOM is for use over a network. .NET adds a lot more, but includes Web Services, which is a way of accessing compiled components from another Web site. This proves not only that Microsoft innovates, but continues to improve on a technology.Quote:
As to COM/DCOM/.NET? Well, as far as I can tell, these are just different generations of the same thing. And while it is a good idea, why do they keep re-inventing it?
Also,
I've written about ten thousand lines into a Web-based game into ASP and ActiveX DLLs, and I expect that number to at least double. VB can handle big projects.Quote:
Silly coder, that project is too big for VB.
Fine, you can do it, you can beat your head agains a wall. Who cares.
Everything you have done can be done smaller, faster, better, more effiecent and reliable in a host of more powerful languages.
I can't believe it is that hard to learn C++ (as an example).
You do. You're the one trying to change humanity for the better, or whatever it is. But that isn't the case, is it Travis? You only want to change the minds of people who already agree with you, and bicker with those who don't. Talk about banging your head against the wall.Quote:
Fine, you can do it, you can beat your head agains a wall. Who cares.
How the hell do you know that? I just told you what COM was, because you had no idea. You're only believing anti-microsoft rhetoric that is spoonfed to you by computer science idealists.Quote:
Everything you have done can be done smaller, faster, better, more effiecent and reliable in a host of more powerful languages.
Incidentally, my code runs fast; on a single Windows 2000 Server with SQL Server 2000 PIII 800 with 512MB, it performs very well with under the stress simulator. Hasn't crashed at all, and we've had it for about six months.
It isn't, I think I'm coming along quite quickly. Believe it or not, C++ doesn't do anything and everything under the sun.Quote:
I can't believe it is that hard to learn C++ (as an example).
***? Go get a degree, okay?Quote:
Originally posted by aknisely
How the hell do you know that? I just told you what COM was, because you had no idea. You're only believing anti-microsoft rhetoric that is spoonfed to you by computer science idealists.
I didn't say it did. I said anything VB can do, VC++ can do better. You mention COM. I know what it is, and like I said, COM/DCOM/.NET are all generations of the same thing. You agree to that. So your fancy little VB website could be done better in VC++. Imagine that, everybody, even MS makes better solutions then VB.Quote:
It isn't, I think I'm coming along quite quickly. Believe it or not, C++ doesn't do anything and everything under the sun.
VB is for at home/hobby use only.
{To be sung to the tune of 'jingle bells..'}
ciberThug... ciberThug...fighting all the way...
every minute,every hour fighting all the day..